why is the US not Metric

[KL27x]

Ergo, those who think that 11's better are Nigels. Those who think 11 is still good when everybody else is using 10 are at least Ruperts*.

I am concerned with how well the guitar plays and sounds, and that it's nice and tightly joined. That the strings are as low as possible without buzzing against the frets. That the notes are all in pitch. That it's the right size. (The guitar, not the ruler used to make it). But you guys can worry about how much better 10 is than 11 or vice versa.

[SilverSolder]

[...] I wouldn't go so far to say America is the father or cradle of modern machining.  [...]

For that we probably have to look to England - in the midlands Black Country parts -  from which several heavy metal groups like Led Zeppelin etc. hail, probably a coincidence!

Historians might write that America was the star of the 20th century, it seems to me.  Space, nuclear, electronics, computing, ... 

[KL27x]

^Yeah, Britain would probably get the credit for that. And they started in imperial, so that's what America started building from.

It was centuries of development and incremental improvement and additions to the existing tools that allow man to shape metal. Re-doing all of this is an enormous task compared to pulling out a calculator and converting a number. Americans are ok with converting between 10 and 11.

Knowing metric and being able to design something brilliantly in metric doesn't mean you can actually make the thing and have it work. If you had the tools (and knowledge and skill) to create this, properly, but they were in imperial, would you not use them? Or would you pull out a metric ruler and a hack saw and try to do it the True way, without using Evil tools? Would the resulting metric paperweight be better than the widget that actually works?

Do you think it's easy? You just design it in SketchUp, then you hit the print button, and your 3D printer does the rest? Do you think N Korea doesn't have intelligent people? Do you think with your modern education and intelligence you can just use metric and google to build an ICBM? Or do you need some actual experience and tools and know-how in making the physical world your bitch?

The guy that made the first rifle. Did he have a genius idea that no one in the world had ever thought about? Heck no. Imagining a rifled steel barrel is pretty easy; bringing it into reality was the hard part. Maybe in the end it would be a waste of time. But someone spent long hours building the tools to build the tools to even try it. Most of us here do not have this kind of capability. We think that getting the "right answer" is all that matters. It's about a score on a test. It's about knowing. The rest is just boring details. But these details matter. Ideas don't equal technology. This is where engineering comes in. Even without calculus and physics and metric, Romans performed incredible feats of engineering. Other societies surely thought about running water. A 6-year-old boy can imagine a giant canal in the sky that brings water to his  home. Other people had this idea, but then they went back to slinging mud. They didn't possess the technology and knowledge to make it more than an idea.

In a textbook, metric is better. Done. In the real world, the tools that make the best guitar are the ones I want. The numbers don't matter. Where you live, the best tools are all metric, I'm sure. I'm ok with imperial cuz I know it's just a scale. I can convert it to metric or vice versa.

If you were a cynic, you might say imperial is the metric of weapons and war since the Roman era. During the cold war, maybe inches were a matter of national pride to Jack and Jenny. Today, maybe the Free Masons are behind the continued use of inches. But to today's Jack and Jenny, inches are what we have at the local store and what is plastered all over our roads. And as a matter of practicality, it isn't broke, so we don't care to fix it. We do care that you care, though. We're not barbarians. So we have taken the note.

You guys don't like imperial fasteners very much.

[Mr. Scram]

Not quite. If you use proper cook's measuring spoons, vis:

where you can level off the measured item with the back of a knife, so you're not into 'level teaspoon, rounded teaspoon, heaped teaspoon' territory, then a tablespoon is 15ml, a dessert spoon 10m and a teaspoon 5ml.

There isn't really a standard or there are many standards derived from the real thing. It boils down to the same.

[Mr. Scram]

I must also point out that most of the world has made a lot of things illegal.  Like murder.  Driving faster than posted limits.  Stealing other peoples property.

And for reasons totally incomprehensible to some, those activities still occur.  Even though almost all agree that the world would be a better place if they didn't. 

I don't lose much sleep over the difference between a perfect world and the one we actually live in.

You don't lose sleep over murder? That sounds a bit psychopathic.

[Cerebus]

Not quite. If you use proper cook's measuring spoons, vis:

where you can level off the measured item with the back of a knife, so you're not into 'level teaspoon, rounded teaspoon, heaped teaspoon' territory, then a tablespoon is 15ml, a dessert spoon 10m and a teaspoon 5ml.

There isn't really a standard or there are many standards derived from the real thing. It boils down to the same.

There is here (UK), I've never seen a set of measuring spoons that weren't 5ml, 10ml, 15ml. With the proviso that they were recent enough to have markings/specifications in mls as well as nominal 'spoon' sizes; I'll bet my old mum's measuring spoons just said "tsp" etc.

Just did a quick search on ebay for measuring spoons from the UK, Europe, China and the USA, and they all seem to conform to those sizes. So it looks as if there is an ad-hoc world standard.

[Cerebus]

I got a package from the US of A today.

On the CN22 customs declaration form, surely the most international of documents almost by definition, the weight was printed only in lbs, with no metric equivalent. Now that strikes me as dumb, and it's the sort thing that might, not unreasonably, lead some people to perceive that the US is a teeny weeny bit arrogant about insisting on using weights and measures (in the explicit context of international trade let us remember) that are out of step with the rest of the world.

It's one thing to use whatever units you like in your own backyard, heck it's your backyard, but when talking to the other 96% of the world's population it would at least be only polite to try and speak the same language, units wise.

I suspect that this is what is at the heart of the rabid taking of positions pro and anti the US adopting metric units.

[Tepe]

There is here (UK), I've never seen a set of measuring spoons that weren't 5ml, 10ml, 15ml. With the proviso that they were recent enough to have markings/specifications in mls as well as nominal 'spoon' sizes; I'll bet my old mum's measuring spoons just said "tsp" etc.

Just had a look in the kitchen drawer: 1.25 ml - 1/4 tsp, 2.5 ml - 1/2 tsp, 5 ml - 1 tsp, 15 ml - 1 T. No markings revealing their country of origin.

[SilverSolder]

[...] Ideas don't equal technology. This is where engineering comes in. Even without calculus and physics and metric, Romans performed incredible feats of engineering. Other societies surely thought about running water. They imagined these things called pipes and then shrugged it off, because they did not figure out how to make the idea into reality in any practical way.  [...]

The real strength is "standardisation" - it doesn't actually matter what the unit of measurement is, as long as it is standardised.

Arguably, the Industrial Revolution was all about producing standardised products in large quantities.  --  beginning with standardised parts (nuts, bolts, and other fasteners for example) to make the standardised products out of.  This led to the Model T Ford, and the explosion of low cost consumer goods in general.  In the building industry, American houses are generally made of modest cost standard parts combined in different ways - they really cost very little to build (you wouldn't know if you try and buy one, though).

In some ways, we have started to go backwards.

For more than 40 years, all cars sold in the United States were required to use the same standard sealed beam headlights. In 1984, the Federal government changed the law, allowing the development of today's headlights that cost $200 to replace instead of the $2 of the old standard part -  but hey, that's progress...

Attempting to stay on topic:  the Metric system is the planet's best bet for an international standard for international trade.  Most American industry already use Metric - workers in Hamtramck, Michigan, are cranking out Buicks all day with metric fasteners.  I say Buick, because this brand is one of the most popular in China...  which would have been much more difficult if it was made of Imperial components.

So it is important that American kids learn to use the metric system as part of their education, even if they don't use it when buying a standard  2 3/4 inch by 4 1/2 inch wall outlet cover plate at the Home Depot.

I generally agree that there is no real reason to change existing road signs etc. - it is hard work, for little gain.  How long will road signs even be around - if you think about it, the day may come where cars will be required to display the speed limit on the dash constantly...  making all the signs obsolete, and freeing local authorities to change the limits depending on traffic, time of day, or whatever.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Attempting to stay on topic:  the Metric system is the planet's best bet for an international standard for international trade.  Most American industry already use Metric - workers in Hamtramck, Michigan, are cranking out Buicks all day with metric fasteners.  I say Buick, because this brand is one of the most popular in China...  which would have been much more difficult if it was made of Imperial components.

Those Buicks are... Opels designed in Europe!!

Regal === Insignia
Encore == Mokka
Enclave == Grandland

[SilverSolder]

Attempting to stay on topic:  the Metric system is the planet's best bet for an international standard for international trade.  Most American industry already use Metric - workers in Hamtramck, Michigan, are cranking out Buicks all day with metric fasteners.  I say Buick, because this brand is one of the most popular in China...  which would have been much more difficult if it was made of Imperial components.

Those Buicks are... Opels designed in Europe!!

Regal === Insignia
Encore == Mokka
Enclave == Grandland

Fair point, but the older "real" Buicks were metric too, back to at least the 90's!

(The older big Buick sedans were nicer in some ways than the new Opel derivatives...  something like the Lucerne Super was probably the last of the "serious" Buick sedans.  And it was metric!)

[bsfeechannel]

The rest of the world IS 100% metric and you know that's true. You can hear echos of imperial or customary units "here and there", but you know darn well that imperial outside the US is DEAD.

I and others already provided you with proof that non-metric measures are still in active use in so-called metric countries. It’s not 100%, and likely never will be, unless you propose leveling all existing structures to make sure no inch threaded pipes remain in use, because otherwise inch thread spare parts will have to remain available. Similarly, all pre-metric objects will need to be scrapped, lest non-metric parts be made available.

Oh yeah, and commercial aviation is a thing. With few exceptions (again, already named in prior posts), all commercial aviation uses nautical miles for distance and feet for altitude.

Those are imperial zombies™. You know what we do with zombies? We kill them.

Well, technically they're already dead. But we kill them deader.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
Those are imperial zombies™. You know what we do with zombies? We kill them.
[...]

It may be more accurate to say that we just leave them to die a natural death - even if it takes a long time for them to die, the long term prognosis is 100% certain!

[CatalinaWOW]

I must also point out that most of the world has made a lot of things illegal.  Like murder.  Driving faster than posted limits.  Stealing other peoples property.

And for reasons totally incomprehensible to some, those activities still occur.  Even though almost all agree that the world would be a better place if they didn't. 

I don't lose much sleep over the difference between a perfect world and the one we actually live in.

You don't lose sleep over murder? That sounds a bit psychopathic.

Those who do lose sleep over murder must not sleep at all, because it happens.  In every part of the world.  It is a horrible thing, but me staying awake is not going to change it.

[Mr. Scram]

There is here (UK), I've never seen a set of measuring spoons that weren't 5ml, 10ml, 15ml. With the proviso that they were recent enough to have markings/specifications in mls as well as nominal 'spoon' sizes; I'll bet my old mum's measuring spoons just said "tsp" etc.

Just did a quick search on ebay for measuring spoons from the UK, Europe, China and the USA, and they all seem to conform to those sizes. So it looks as if there is an ad-hoc world standard.

Your search bubble may be getting to you. I'll refer to Wikipedia. "The unit of measurement varies by region: a United States tablespoon is approximately 14.8 mL (0.50 US fl oz), a United Kingdom and Canadian tablespoon is exactly 15 mL (0.51 US fl oz),[2] and an Australian tablespoon is 20 mL (0.68 US fl oz).[3]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablespoon

[Mr. Scram]

Those who do lose sleep over murder must not sleep at all, because it happens.  In every part of the world.  It is a horrible thing, but me staying awake is not going to change it.

Imperial is like murder but both are acceptable. I think that's the story.

[Cerebus]

There is here (UK), I've never seen a set of measuring spoons that weren't 5ml, 10ml, 15ml. With the proviso that they were recent enough to have markings/specifications in mls as well as nominal 'spoon' sizes; I'll bet my old mum's measuring spoons just said "tsp" etc.

Just did a quick search on ebay for measuring spoons from the UK, Europe, China and the USA, and they all seem to conform to those sizes. So it looks as if there is an ad-hoc world standard.

Your search bubble may be getting to you. I'll refer to Wikipedia. "The unit of measurement varies by region: a United States tablespoon is approximately 14.8 mL (0.50 US fl oz), a United Kingdom and Canadian tablespoon is exactly 15 mL (0.51 US fl oz),[2] and an Australian tablespoon is 20 mL (0.68 US fl oz).[3]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablespoon

I'd suggest that Wikipedia (one source), with results for the US, UK, Canada and Australia, is a bit more "search bubble" than a deliberate search across what's being sold by vendors from "UK, Europe, China and the USA".

Anyway (apart from the greedy buggers in Aus - population 25M - with their oversize spoons)  your results still come up with 15ml +0-1.3% or +0-200ul, which is about 'one drop'. I strongly suspect that making 0.5 US fl oz measuring spoons just for the US market is something that, in practice, doesn't actually happen, so they end up with 15ml measuring spoons just like the rest of us. Or the situation is standardised in the same way that mains voltage is standardised across the EU - with a wide enough margin of error that a device manufactured to a slightly off-centre spec is acceptable anywhere.

[KL27x]

I got a package from the US of A today.

On the CN22 customs declaration form, surely the most international of documents almost by definition, the weight was printed only in lbs, with no metric equivalent. Now that strikes me as dumb, and it's the sort thing that might, not unreasonably, lead some people to perceive that the US is a teeny weeny bit arrogant about insisting on using weights and measures (in the explicit context of international trade let us remember) that are out of step with the rest of the world.

It's one thing to use whatever units you like in your own backyard, heck it's your backyard, but when talking to the other 96% of the world's population it would at least be only polite to try and speak the same language, units wise.

I suspect that this is what is at the heart of the rabid taking of positions pro and anti the US adopting metric units.

Woman: you left the toilet seat up, again. The only reason I didn't fall in, is because I fell in the toilet, once, when I was 15. I always check, now, before I pee. You're the only man in the house, so you have to respect the female majority.

Man: If it's my job, I have to lift and put down the lid every time I pee. But logically speaking, I might have to use the bathroom again, before any of you do. So I would have done extra work for nothing. You said you always check, anyway. So if the lid happens to be up, then the first woman to use it will have to put it down, and then the women are collectively doing half the work between them, so it will be nothing. There are so many women, that this will be trivial to you. I am the only one that has to lift this damn lid every time I pee, and you all have it easy.

Woman: Ok, then. Why don't you pee sitting down, too? Then all of us will be able to sit down without even looking!

Man: Fine, I'll put the lid back down.

~1 week later, repeat.

;;;
Yeah, that is annoying to you, and I apologize for America. But you do at least still read the units. The day we fill out or read the "weight" section as simply "8.4," then we will all be zombies.

Maybe US companies/government offered to use only metric, but this offer was politely declined. Seeing as US is officially imperial, it is maybe something that is negotiated between countries, diplomatically? And maybe this happened 100 years ago, and this is simply the way they have handled it ever since then?

From the EE's perspective, there is also RTFM. I wonder what did the instructions say on the form, if any.

[tooki]

Anyway (apart from the greedy buggers in Aus - population 25M - with their oversize spoons)  your results still come up with 15ml +0-1.3% or +0-200ul, which is about 'one drop'. I strongly suspect that making 0.5 US fl oz measuring spoons just for the US market is something that, in practice, doesn't actually happen, so they end up with 15ml measuring spoons just like the rest of us. Or the situation is standardised in the same way that mains voltage is standardised across the EU - with a wide enough margin of error that a device manufactured to a slightly off-centre spec is acceptable anywhere.

Almost certainly. Nobody measuring a teaspoon of baking powder or vanilla extract is going to be doing it down to 0.07ml of precision by hand.

These are my measuring spoons, purchased in USA around 2001. Like essentially all measuring devices in USA sold in my lifetime, they’re marked in both customary and metric. Given the cheap quality of these things, there’s no way they’re accurate to 0.07ml on a teaspoon even if they tried, so I’d also wager that they’re actually nominally metric, and they just stamp them differently for the US market. (Presumably they have an entire array of stamps for different languages and regions.)




What surprised me is that a few years ago, one grocery store here started carrying measuring cups that also have US cups graduations on them. (Other than the US-designed Oxo Good Grips products, and the IKEA stuff that’s made for the whole world, one practically never sees US cups measurements on cookware here.)

[KL27x]

AFAIC, a tablespoon is 15mL in America. 14.8mL? The madness. 

[Cerebus]

What surprised me is that a few years ago, one grocery store here started carrying measuring cups that also have US cups graduations on them. (Other than the US-designed Oxo Good Grips products, and the IKEA stuff that’s made for the whole world, one practically never sees US cups measurements on cookware here.)

Not quite so surprising to me. I remember someone telling me that there is a roaring export trade in American cookery books. Given that US recipes use cups for measuring almost every dry or liquid ingredient (and, weird for the rest of the world, 'sticks' of butter - a strictly Norteamericano unit) it wouldn't be surprising that home cooks would perhaps present a demand for US cup measures.

[KL27x]

(weird for the rest of the world, 'sticks' of butter - a strictly Norteamericano unit)

 

For anyone not aware, we have a dish just for the butter. It's really convenient! But it has to be real butter, and you can't be too stingy with the AC. Because it has a cover, and you can leave it unrefrigerated. 

What do you do for your butter? Squeeze it out of a bottle, these days?  I grew up with tubs of margarine. Life was tough, back then. And I actually remember when squeezing liquid margarine out of a plastic bottle was a thing advertised on the tele and then in our fridge the next week for a failed trial. 

[SilverSolder]

[...] (and, weird for the rest of the world, 'sticks' of butter - a strictly Norteamericano unit) [...]

It is how the manufacturers (sub) package them.  A standard "stick" has 1/2 cup, or 8 tbsp. of butter, with nice lines on the wrapper to cut off the chunk you need.  What's not to like? Even a metric user can chop off chunks of 15ml at a time!

It is easier to cut smallish chunks from a stick of butter accurately than it is to cut the larger blocks of butter typically used in European countries. 

For usability, the US wins this one!
 

[Cerebus]

(weird for the rest of the world, 'sticks' of butter - a strictly Norteamericano unit)

 

For anyone not aware, we have a dish just for the butter. It's really convenient! But it has to be real butter, and you can't be too stingy with the AC. Because it has a cover, and you can leave it unrefrigerated. 

What do you do for your butter? Squeeze it out of a bottle, these days?  I grew up with tubs of margarine. Life was tough, back then. And I actually remember when squeezing liquid margarine out of a plastic bottle was a thing advertised on the tele and then in our fridge the next week for a failed trial. 

Ah,  the parochial Norteamericano male who's never opened a cookbook. American cookbooks use the 'stick' as a unit of butter, neglecting the fact that butter is not sold the world over in ¹/₂ US cup 'sticks'.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
Ah,  the parochial Norteamericano male who's never opened a cookbook. American cookbooks use the 'stick' as a unit of butter, neglecting the fact that butter is not sold the world over in ¹/₂ US cup 'sticks'.

Yes, but even worse, their cookbooks are generally written in English -  despite the fact that most of the world does not speak English!  There should be a law against it...