Microwave Oven Bandwidth / Co-existence with Wi-Fi Networks

[NiHaoMike]

Thanks everyone for their comments. I've decided to use channel 13 on the 2.4 GHz band (which is legal in Australia). It seems as though none of the visible devices around here want to use that channel at all (for whatever reason) and they are all clustered around the common channels 1, 6 and 11.

That sounds like a good decision - I use channel 13 on my router too (also have legacy stuff). Most routers seem to default to the bottom of the band and the auto switching ones seem to be a bit deterred from picking 11 when they find something up at 13, that one might just be my imagination though! Either way 'taking the high ground' seems to get me as far from interfering sources as possible.

If you've got a laptop, try installing inSSIDer https://www.metageek.com/products/inssider/ and wandering around, it gives a real-time rolling graph or different SSID strengths as well as the normal level by channel number display. Metageek also do products that sense other, non wifi sources but I think those rely on their WiSpy plug is spectrum analyser.

P.S. They seem to be charging for inSSIDer now, though there's still a demo version available. You might want to look around for a download of one of their previous freeware versions, either V2.1 or V3.

Also try WifiAnalyzer for Android.
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.vrem.wifianalyzer/

[Mr. Scram]

This sounds like a case of two people pissed at each other, without knowing exactly why.

I do think it's a good idea, and I have urged him to reconsider, with more ideas to back it up because I've had so many problems with 2.4Ghz in the past. I also stated reasons why that might be the case, in an attempt to acknowledge the fact that I might not know all the details, and that there are genuine reasons to rely on a 2.4Ghz network.

Halcyon's probably gonna come back and wonder wtf happened/is wrong with us, so I suggest we let whatever stupidity this is cease, brush off hard feelings, and I recommend that you two figure out what's up between the two of you, but that's none of my business. 

I think anybody who tries to use wireless communication with any real throughput should understand and expect the limitations. Wireless communications will most likely never be as fast as a direct connection.

I personally use a Ubiquiti Uni-Fi AP-AC-LR, which was I believe cheaper than the pro version at the time. Some people have gone on to say the LR stuff is a bit wank, but despite having no real comparisons, besides a 2011 AP/Router that only does 802.11n 2.4ghz, the range is quite positively impressive. I'm not sure if it maintains 5Ghz the entire way, it might step down to 2.4Ghz, but that is actually another point. Most 5Ghz APs that I have seen are dual band, and will work in 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz at the same time, and in theory should "seamlessly" switch to 2.4Ghz when the 5Ghz signal drops out, and will maintain compatibility with legacy devices.

I actually just installed an 802.11n card into my ~14 year old Prescott Celeron laptop to replace it's 802.11g card that I didn't want to use for fear of bottlenecking other devices (which can happen on some, if not all APs, at least to some extent). I don't know if it's a 5Ghz card, but it hooks up to my AP, and works flawlessly on Arch Linux.

As stated, I'd honestly really only be concerned if I am either running crucial applications (which shouldn't be on wireless anyways), or if the microwave REALLY gets used a lot to the point where severe downtime can be expected.

I honestly have no clue what's going on.  Apparently there's animosity, but I don't think I got the memo. I'm fairly sure I'm not pissed off at anyone here. The forum should be a fun place for all, so I trawled through all my posts since new year's to see what's up. It turns out it's the second time I called Cerebus out after he called someone else out, but I can't imagine that's what all the fuss is about. If there's anything that needs to be discussed over a virtual beer or a cup of TEA, I'm all for it. The little text box thing somewhere on the left of my post can be clicked to shoot me a message. Until then preferential treatment doesn't seem to be a good idea, so anyone calling someone out runs the risk of getting called out in turn. It's somewhat biblical, I suppose.

In regards to switching from 2.4 GHz to 5 GHz, I think you need a mesh type AP for that. In more traditional APs the switch happening is a hit or miss thing and is triggered by actually losing the signal. Mesh networks should switch you over as soon as another signal is stronger than the one you're using.

[Halcyon]

In regards to switching from 2.4 GHz to 5 GHz, I think you need a mesh type AP for that. In more traditional APs the switch happening is a hit or miss thing and is triggered by actually losing the signal. Mesh networks should switch you over as soon as another signal is stronger than the one you're using.

Band steering is a bit of a hit and miss in general. Not all client devices support it. The Ubiquiti gear is pretty good but if the client wants to connect to the 2.4 GHz network, it will do that. My primary home network runs on 5 GHz only. The legacy stuff runs on both.

[Halcyon]

A bit of an old topic but I just wanted to share what I had done for my home network since my original post.

I'm running 3 Ubiquiti access points and have come up with the band plan below. Thankfully in my area, I have exclusive use of 2.4 GHz Channel 13 with very little adjacent channel interference (there is just one guy nearby using a 40 MHz wide 2.4 GHz channel).

On the 5 GHz band, I have exclusive use of the channels I've selected. It works brilliantly. I've selected specific channels very carefully based on DFS/non-DFS channels, surrounding radios and maximum transmit power. WAP #3 which is limited to 200 mW output only services a small number of clients in close proximity which is perfect while the other two provide longer distance coverage on the 5 GHz band.

If you're designing your network, hopefully this gives you a few ideas to think about. It's also interesting to note how consumer devices like to "crowd" around the same channels, despite being set to "auto" most of the time.

[Red Squirrel]

Microwave ovens are fairly well sealed, if it's leaking you probably have bigger problems to worry about such as it cooking your eye balls. 

[Halcyon]

Microwave ovens are fairly well sealed, if it's leaking you probably have bigger problems to worry about such as it cooking your eye balls. 

Even a brand new microwave can cause dramas with Wi-Fi. Some leakage is not uncommon. We have a particular brand of Microwave at work which causes Wi-Fi issues @ 2.4 GHz.

My microwave doesn't cause any noticeable issues, but I'd rather avoid know interference completely where possible.

[Gyro]

@Halcyon,

Thanks for reporting back, very useful feedback.

Microwave ovens are fairly well sealed, if it's leaking you probably have bigger problems to worry about such as it cooking your eye balls. 

It takes minute amounts of power leakage (relative to it's intended purpose) for a Microwave it interfere with the 2.4GHz band, We've got a Panasonic inverter model that persistently drops wifi throughput, even on Channel 13 (it's much worse in the middle of the band as Halcyon shows). It backs onto the wall in the kitchen and I use my laptop on the other side. I've been all over the damn thing, checking every case screw and seam to try and quieten it down.

It's more a case of 'if your wifi signal was strong enough to drown out permitted microwave oven leakage, IT would be the thing to worry about cooking your eyeballs'.

[CatalinaWOW]

This whole thread shows the danger of "sneaking spectrum".  The ISM band is not intended for communication and thus the devices that originally occupied it don't have regulations on things like frequency, only some loose requirements on total radiated power.  Those requirements are based on physical safety needs, not on communication reliability.  The myriad of devices which use this band (such as WiFi) did so originally because of the ease of licensing for low power devices and now live with the consequences.

The consequence of this is that any measurements of behavior of microwave ovens are subject to changes as manufacturing technology changes.  They may be different in different regional marketing areas.  The only thing controlling the frequency is the need to couple well to the water molecule, and some designs might trade poorer coupling for some other factor or feature.

The whole scenario leads to an interesting food fight.  The market and usage of WiFi like devices in this band has grown large enough that a case could be made for dedicating this band to those purposes.  But the market for microwave ovens is also very large, so if such a change were to occur it wouldn't be without blood on the floor.

[CopperCone]

I want to develop a 5.8ghz microwave oven that works in conjuctionwith a 2.4ghz tron to heat food more efficently.

Your bandwidth cant hide forever

[NiHaoMike]

Apparently some microwave ovens are so leaky that they don't even function as effective shield boxes for Wifi!

[floobydust]

They also radiate from the line cord, the line-filter I don't think does that well at 2.4GHz