Author Topic: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars  (Read 25176 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2018, 09:38:58 pm »
I find my smartphone to be an indispensable tool. It's my still camera, it's my video camera, it's my appointment book, my watch, my GPS navigator, map, bus schedule, universal communication device, music player, calculator, compass, and any number of other things. Sure a lot of people use them for pointless things but what else is new? It's not as if people didn't find ways to waste time back before smartphones. I lived a majority of my life without them and I've always known loads of lazy people who found pointless stuff to do.

It's not that I absolutely need one, but it sure is a convenient tool and it beats carrying around a pile of gadgets and hoping I have the one I need when I need it.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2018, 12:37:17 pm »
Nope people are too fixated on spending their money on time wasting things like iphone. If Apple revenue was spent on space exploration, we'd already have a base on Mars.

Smartphones are pretty darn useful I'd say.
They increase productivity for maybe 5% of users at best. Others just waste their time and decrease productivity by using them for useless things. Selfies, instagram, facebook, youtube, you name it.

OK. Given your clear value system, and assuming that you put your money where your mouth is -- may I assume that you do not own a smartphone, and are donating the savings to the good cause of Mars colonization instead?
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2018, 12:54:39 pm »
OK. Given your clear value system, and assuming that you put your money where your mouth is -- may I assume that you do not own a smartphone, and are donating the savings to the good cause of Mars colonization instead?
I have a smartphone, not the most expensive. I rarely waste the time with it, it more like for occasional use. And I don't replace it annually as some. I waste my time mostly on PC and eevblog is one of the worst time wasters of mine. At least I admit that I waste my  time and money on nonproductive things. No way I pretend to be holier than thou.
 
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2018, 01:02:48 pm »
Most businesses' applications have web front ends nowadays, that means you can use them at any time, while on the move, wherever you are, with your smartphones.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2018, 01:09:51 pm »
Most businesses' applications have web front ends nowadays, that means you can use them at any time, while on the move, wherever you are, with your smartphones.
You can does not mean that you will. Chatting, using social networks during work hours is certainly nonproductive. Heck, I cave a customer which is a small company consisting of a few people. Business owner once told me they had no internet for 2 days and they previously never were as productive as during those two days.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2018, 01:25:20 pm »
Tetris was the problem back in the early days of PCs.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 01:54:26 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2018, 01:45:01 pm »
There are no natural resources available that don't need mining/extraction. There is nothing of sufficient value on Mars that could be traded with Earth, apart from Mars rocks.
Well, for starters, Helium 3 would be worth shipping back to earth. It should be very abundant in Mar's regolith.
There's plenty of Helium 3 on the moon, makes no economic sens to go all the way to Mars for that.

You Space Nutters have odd definitions of "plenty". And just what do you think you need He3 for? Slightly lighter party balloons?
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2018, 01:51:39 pm »
Tetris was the problem back in the early days of computing.
Tetris didn't show up until the mid 1980's. The early days of computing are generally regarded as those up to around 1960.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2018, 01:53:44 pm »
Tetris was the problem back in the early days of computing.
Tetris didn't show up until the mid 1980's. The early days of computing are generally regarded as those up to around 1960.

 :-+ [ x ] Fixed.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 01:58:08 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2018, 02:03:29 pm »
There are no natural resources available that don't need mining/extraction. There is nothing of sufficient value on Mars that could be traded with Earth, apart from Mars rocks.
Well, for starters, Helium 3 would be worth shipping back to earth. It should be very abundant in Mar's regolith.
There's plenty of Helium 3 on the moon, makes no economic sens to go all the way to Mars for that.

You Space Nutters have odd definitions of "plenty". And just what do you think you need He3 for? Slightly lighter party balloons?
It's potential fuel for the "soon" to be finished fusion reactors. It could potentially be valuable in the far future (potentially being the operative word here). But even if it does become valuable, there is enough on the moon to power fusion reactors on earth for quite a while, so shipping it all the way from Mars would probably not be competitive is my guess.

You could also mine valuable metals on Mars of course, but you then have to launch them into orbit and send them to earth. It would probably be easier and cheaper to mine asteroids in that case since they are already "floating" in space, but who knows.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2018, 02:30:13 pm »
It's potential fuel for the "soon" to be finished fusion reactors. It could potentially be valuable in the far future (potentially being the operative word here). But even if it does become valuable, there is enough on the moon to power fusion reactors on earth for quite a while, so shipping it all the way from Mars would probably not be competitive is my guess.

You could also mine valuable metals on Mars of course, but you then have to launch them into orbit and send them to earth. It would probably be easier and cheaper to mine asteroids in that case since they are already "floating" in space, but who knows.

"of course"!
 :-DD :-DD :-DD

Oh, it's Comedy Monday on EEVblog, I didn't get the memo. How do otherwise rational engineers end up with so many bullshit ideas? It's like you mention "space" and 5 years of university education go in the trash, and the entire Star Trek box set gets uploaded into your brains. Space is bullshit. Get over it. It's pseudo-religious garbage that tickles your monkey brain and excites the same parts of the brain that religions have always tickled.

("Of course", you could also extract platinum from seawater, why hasn't anyone done that? Oh wait, let's do it on Mars, now suddenly it makes sense!)

We don't even have D-T fusion power reactors. And quite likely never will. You know, we just need to exceed the conditions at the center of the Sun by a few orders of magnitude to get it to work, but I suppose computers got better so we can assume that's a solved problem... |O  Invoking even higher levels of He3 unreality won't make it happen. If you put a bunch of wind turbines around a H-bomb explosion you'll generate more power than any fusion projects have ever made, or ever will.

The only fusion project I give a greater than zero chance of maybe lighting a LED in the next 20 years is General Fusion. And even that seems to be taking forever.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2018, 03:18:03 pm »
It's potential fuel for the "soon" to be finished fusion reactors. It could potentially be valuable in the far future (potentially being the operative word here). But even if it does become valuable, there is enough on the moon to power fusion reactors on earth for quite a while, so shipping it all the way from Mars would probably not be competitive is my guess.

You could also mine valuable metals on Mars of course, but you then have to launch them into orbit and send them to earth. It would probably be easier and cheaper to mine asteroids in that case since they are already "floating" in space, but who knows.

"of course"!
 :-DD :-DD :-DD

Oh, it's Comedy Monday on EEVblog, I didn't get the memo. How do otherwise rational engineers end up with so many bullshit ideas? It's like you mention "space" and 5 years of university education go in the trash, and the entire Star Trek box set gets uploaded into your brains. Space is bullshit. Get over it. It's pseudo-religious garbage that tickles your monkey brain and excites the same parts of the brain that religions have always tickled.

("Of course", you could also extract platinum from seawater, why hasn't anyone done that? Oh wait, let's do it on Mars, now suddenly it makes sense!)

We don't even have D-T fusion power reactors. And quite likely never will. You know, we just need to exceed the conditions at the center of the Sun by a few orders of magnitude to get it to work, but I suppose computers got better so we can assume that's a solved problem... |O  Invoking even higher levels of He3 unreality won't make it happen. If you put a bunch of wind turbines around a H-bomb explosion you'll generate more power than any fusion projects have ever made, or ever will.

The only fusion project I give a greater than zero chance of maybe lighting a LED in the next 20 years is General Fusion. And even that seems to be taking forever.
Clearly you haven't bothered to read previous posts or it would be clear that I don't believe colonising Mars is practical. Also you seem to have missed the quotation marks around "soon" indicating a bit of irony in this case. Indeed, fusion seems to have been looming just beyond the horizon for several decades now.

The answer about He3 is to the hypothetical question: "if there was a colony on Mars, would they have some resource they could trade with earth?" My guess is that they probably do not. He3, if it turned out to be valuable in the distant future would likely be cheaper to mine on the moon than on mars.

I don't see why you think a hypothetical mars colony wouldn't be able to mine for metals/ores on Mars? I can't think of any reason not. Wouldn't be that much different from mining on earth I imagine. (Aside from the normal challenges of living and operating on mars would impose, they are not trivial of course, but I assume a hypothetical mars colony will have found ways to deal with those.) Will it be cost efficient to mine metals on Mars and sell them to earth? Probably not, which was my point.

What do you mean by "Space is bullshit"? Space is definitely a real thing and it's demonstrably possible to send people to the moon and back. Not sure why you would think otherwise unless you are one of those flat earthers who think the moon landing was a hoax?
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2018, 03:19:52 pm »
A hypothetical Mars colony could also have all-you-can-eat hot fudge sundaes every day, what does this have to do with engineering?

Maybe this is a sci-fi writer's workshop on how to write the most impractical bullshit?
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2018, 03:31:20 pm »
If you put a bunch of wind turbines around a H-bomb explosion you'll generate more power than any fusion projects have ever made, or ever will.

That's a great idea >:D Imagine if you could contain the explosion in a big deep underground vessel, and let it out little by little through a bunch or turbines. That would even be "green" !
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 07:55:30 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline Nusa

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2018, 03:32:30 pm »
A hypothetical Mars colony could also have all-you-can-eat hot fudge sundaes every day, what does this have to do with engineering?

Maybe this is a sci-fi writer's workshop on how to write the most impractical bullshit?

Of course, that would require a hypothetical dairy animal herd on mars, plus some hypothetical cocoa trees planted in your hypothetical simulated tropical environment. Also some hypothetical plants suitable for sugar production.

The primary export of an early colony would be knowledge. Observations, survival successes and failures, experimental data, and of course human interest stuff (blogs, videos, whatever).
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #140 on: July 23, 2018, 03:36:52 pm »
A hypothetical Mars colony could also have all-you-can-eat hot fudge sundaes every day, what does this have to do with engineering?

Maybe this is a sci-fi writer's workshop on how to write the most impractical bullshit?

Of course, that would require a hypothetical dairy animal herd on mars, plus some hypothetical cocoa trees planted in your hypothetical simulated tropical environment. Also some hypothetical plants suitable for sugar production.

The primary export of an early colony would be knowledge. Observations, survival successes and failures, experimental data, and of course human interest stuff (blogs, videos, whatever).

Oh brother... We had the same opportunity with the bottom the ocean. Quick, without Googling, who was the first person to reach the bottom of the Mariana Trench!?

The answer is: No one gives a shit.

You want knowledge about Mars? Here's some knowledge for you: it's the same periodic table of elements there as here. So what's the motivation? We'll blow trillions to send test pilots in diapers to see how rust behaves on Mars?

Wow wee. I can't wait.

www.distancetomars.com
 

Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2018, 03:37:15 pm »
A hypothetical Mars colony could also have all-you-can-eat hot fudge sundaes every day, what does this have to do with engineering?
Few things are more engineering related than space exploration? If you don't wan't to talk about sending people to mars then go read/post in some other thread.

There have been a lot of "serious" discussion about sending people to Mars and starting a colony there, notably by president Bush junior (iirc). Personally I think it makes more sense to send robotic rovers like NASA have been doing. Colonising mars seems very impractical indeed.

(It's not that unlikely that China will try it as a publicity stunt either.)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 03:44:17 pm by apis »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2018, 03:39:12 pm »
I could say more than I dare ... but I'm laughing too much.

For those who understand why, no explanation is necessary.  For those who do not, no explanation is safe.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #143 on: July 23, 2018, 03:39:38 pm »
Blogs about their depressing thoughts about their miserable lifes, I'd guess.
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Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #144 on: July 23, 2018, 03:51:28 pm »
A hypothetical Mars colony could also have all-you-can-eat hot fudge sundaes every day, what does this have to do with engineering?
Few things are more engineering related than space exploration? If you don't wan't to talk about sending people to mars then go read/post in some other thread.

There have been a lot of "serious" discussion about sending people to Mars and starting a colony there, notably by president Bush II (iirc). Personally I think it makes more sense to send robotic rovers like NASA have been doing. Colonising mars seems very impractical indeed.

Most of space (that's a BIG place) was explored... FROM THE GROUND. You've heard of observatories? You've heard of Galileo? He explored Jupiter and the Solar System, with hand ground glass.

Please describe what a monkey in a space suit is accomplishing by getting 400 kilometers closer to stars light years away? Or are you claiming being personally close to a perfect vacuum is "exploring space". I didn't know I was exploring space when my Mum packed my lunch in a Thermos flask!

I read this because it is instructive in people's capacity for self-delusion. "Oh I'm an engineer so therefore I don't need to check this engineery-looking stuff, it's all legit!" "Hey we don't need to worry about THIS planet, we'll just fuck off in a magical science spaceship when we're done! Because the universe OWES US!!"

You don't realize how you've been manipulated by horseshit space religion and goofy-ass propaganda about weapons disguised as "exploration".
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #145 on: July 23, 2018, 03:59:58 pm »
The early days of computing are generally regarded as those up to around 1960.

I don't think there is a generally accepted definition, and would argue that the personal interpretation of "early days" will very much depend on the age of the interpreter.  ;)
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #146 on: July 23, 2018, 04:10:44 pm »
Please describe what a monkey in a space suit is accomplishing by getting 400 kilometers closer to stars light years away? Or are you claiming being personally close to a perfect vacuum is "exploring space". I didn't know I was exploring space when my Mum packed my lunch in a Thermos flask!
Now this is just uninformed and plain stupid. In the space station a huge number of scientific experiments are done which are possible only in microgravity conditions. Results of many of those experiments are then used on earth to make something useful in everyday life.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/explorer/search.html?
Quote
You've heard of Galileo? He explored Jupiter and the Solar System, with hand ground glass.
I'm certain you want to return to the state of science of those years. Just avoid inquisition frying your ass on a bonfire.
 
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Offline apis

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #147 on: July 23, 2018, 04:14:22 pm »
A hypothetical Mars colony could also have all-you-can-eat hot fudge sundaes every day, what does this have to do with engineering?
Few things are more engineering related than space exploration? If you don't wan't to talk about sending people to mars then go read/post in some other thread.

There have been a lot of "serious" discussion about sending people to Mars and starting a colony there, notably by president Bush II (iirc). Personally I think it makes more sense to send robotic rovers like NASA have been doing. Colonising mars seems very impractical indeed.
Most of space (that's a BIG place) was explored... FROM THE GROUND. You've heard of observatories? You've heard of Galileo? He explored Jupiter and the Solar System, with hand ground glass.

Please describe what a monkey in a space suit is accomplishing by getting 400 kilometers closer to stars light years away?
Those monkeys at the ISS do a ton of experiments that can only be done in micro gravity. Kind of hard to do down on Earth.

Did you read any of what I wrote? I've repeatedly stated I don't think sending people to Mars makes sense (which is closer to 54.6 million kilometers away, minimum).

Sending a robotic rover to Mars however lets you look for water, analyse the composition of the atmosphere and analyse the soil and the layer beneath the top soil, that is obviously valuable in order to understand the geology of other planets and the formation of the solar system, etc. They also look for signs of life (fossilised or living), and numerous other things.

You don't realize how you've been manipulated by horseshit space religion and goofy-ass propaganda about weapons disguised as "exploration".
Indeed, I might not have realised as a kid but today it's feels like an open secret. If not for the military aspect of it, there would probably not be any satellites or satellite navigation, etc.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #148 on: July 23, 2018, 04:19:41 pm »
You don't realize how you've been manipulated by horseshit space religion and goofy-ass propaganda about weapons disguised as "exploration".
So what, GPS was purely military system in the past. Pleas comment if navigation is not useful in everyday life?
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #149 on: July 23, 2018, 04:22:48 pm »
Please describe what a monkey in a space suit is accomplishing by getting 400 kilometers closer to stars light years away? Or are you claiming being personally close to a perfect vacuum is "exploring space". I didn't know I was exploring space when my Mum packed my lunch in a Thermos flask!
Now this is just uninformed and plain stupid. In the space station a huge number of scientific experiments are done which are possible only in microgravity conditions. Results of many of those experiments are then used on earth to make something useful in everyday life.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/explorer/search.html?
Quote
You've heard of Galileo? He explored Jupiter and the Solar System, with hand ground glass.
I'm certain you want to return to the state of science of those years. Just avoid inquisition frying your ass on a bonfire.

Ah yes, that old chestnut.
 


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