Author Topic: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars  (Read 55575 times)

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Online wraper

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #275 on: July 26, 2018, 01:43:26 pm »
... I can never tell if you're joking, or what. Are you saying SpaceX started from absolute zero knowledge of the field of rocketry? They didn't look at what worked and what didn't before??? They didn't benefit from the mountains of knowledge of theory and materials and practical engineering amassed over the decades by NASA??
How dare you go to school and learn from the books, exploiting knowledge of poor scientists of the past! You should sit in a cave and achieve all on your own.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #276 on: July 26, 2018, 01:54:35 pm »
You speak as if there is only one government in the world, which since you wear a Canadian tag, is presumably the Canadian government.

Yup, we had Avro and CARDE, builder of the Black Brant. After the Avro Arrow was canned some Avro engineers headed to NASA to work on Apollo. Here's one.

Point is, if it wasn't for taxpayer-funded research, frat boys like Musk couldn't have invented much.


And yes, SpaceX is saving their customers (some of which are agencies of specific governments) money by putting payloads in orbit cheaper than anyone else seems to be able to. Including said governments themselves.

Fine, no argument there. NASA is a monstrous, ossified, stratified bureaucracy now. You need to churn things to innovate once in a while.

Point is though, these innovations don't change the basic reality of rockets. They burn chemicals at the edge of what is possible with real materials, and they go to the same place as before.

You can't innovate away the vastness and hostility of space, no one is colonizing Mars or going on holidays on the Moon. Airbus innovated the A380, it still takes 6 hours to fly across the Atlantic. Same as in 1969.

... I can never tell if you're joking, or what. Are you saying SpaceX started from absolute zero knowledge of the field of rocketry? They didn't look at what worked and what didn't before??? They didn't benefit from the mountains of knowledge of theory and materials and practical engineering amassed over the decades by NASA??
How dare you go to school and learn from the books, exploiting knowledge of poor scientists of the past! You should sit in a cave and achieve all on your own.

Not sure what that is supposed to mean. I made fun of your space hallucinations and now you're going to teach the mean old man a lesson? ROFL I saw your trap!  ;)

The point, my fine fellow Terran, is that you are not going to retire on Mars. You can paint different stripes on the side of a rocket, it doesn't change the basic reality of the situation. It's game over for all the space dreams. Being able to toss unmanned radios into orbit for slightly less money changes nothing.

Yes, the Space Shuttle was a disaster, a nightmare of impractical, over-engineered under-designed contradictory requirements. Probably sticking to "monkeys on top of tube" is the best approach if you want to study the effects of free-fall on the growth of English cucumbers. But it doesn't change THIS:

www.distancetomars.com

Maybe you're saving up your Euros for a space retirement, I'm telling you don't bother. It didn't happen then, it won't happen now.

Look, cars are much better, safer and faster than in the 1960s, do you suddenly see millions of people becoming race car drivers???
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #277 on: July 26, 2018, 02:13:14 pm »
It's game over for all the space dreams.
Forever? As in all eternity? Even the dreams?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #278 on: July 26, 2018, 02:29:52 pm »
It's over. The future is here ...

You funny man.  :-DD
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #279 on: July 26, 2018, 02:31:31 pm »
Sure sure, some military test pilots bounced on the Moon for a few days

I'd like to point out those test pilots were also engineers  ;D
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #280 on: July 26, 2018, 02:33:48 pm »
Most science is built on that which came before. Huge advances in rocketry came from war technology developed by Nazi Germany and the German scientists that continued their work in various countries after the war.


 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #281 on: July 26, 2018, 03:05:29 pm »
@ George: How do you pay for the space program in the US as a Pole?
Do I? Am I paying Musk? I hope not! The public debt is just a(nother) tax in disguise, and a rather big one.
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #282 on: July 26, 2018, 03:34:53 pm »
https://youtu.be/mUQtqnmwDt4?t=1503

Cued for the segment of interest, the focus of the point I wish to highlight begins at 27:18.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 03:37:43 pm by Brumby »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #283 on: July 26, 2018, 07:31:56 pm »
or "Asteroid of DOOM!!".
BTW, I remembered that not so long time ago there was one that exploded in midair in Russia. Not that big to cause huge damage but there was some real damage indeed.

Quote
By 5 March 2013 the number of damaged buildings was tallied at over 7,200, which included some 6,040 apartment blocks, 293 medical facilities, 718 schools and universities, 100 cultural organizations, and 43 sport facilities, of which only about one and a half percent had not yet been repaired.[4] The oblast's governor estimated the damage to buildings at more than 1 billion rubles[82] (approximately US$33 million).

https://youtu.be/tq02C_3FvFo

« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 09:26:11 pm by wraper »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #284 on: July 27, 2018, 10:28:01 am »
https://youtu.be/mUQtqnmwDt4?t=1503

Cued for the segment of interest, the focus of the point I wish to highlight begins at 27:18.

But debt != normal taxes. The debt is money you're being robbed silently. And the interest of the debt which is billions more to add to the debt, paid monthly/yearly, again and again, for no benefit, forever. Makes my blood boil. A big, permanent, parasitic loss.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 10:32:18 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #285 on: July 27, 2018, 12:00:18 pm »
I think you are fixated on an incidental point and missing out on the bigger picture.
 

Offline Echo88

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #286 on: July 27, 2018, 02:53:18 pm »
@George: "Some of that great excess of spending (public debt) goes or has gone to your pocket as salary? Good for you. But now we have to pay it, not you (unless you believe in overunity). So that's not good for me/us. I hope you can understand that."

Youre whining about the US space program, as a pole, who doesnt pay a penny to it.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #287 on: July 27, 2018, 03:27:42 pm »
Youre whining about the US space program, as a pole, who doesnt pay a penny to it.
Nope, in general, about 1) excessive spending= deficit and 2) tremendous public debts and 3) debt's interest payments forever, which happens ~ everywhere nowadays.
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Offline rdl

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #288 on: July 27, 2018, 04:16:04 pm »
Nope, in general, about 1) excessive spending= deficit and 2) tremendous public debts and 3) debt's interest payments forever, which happens ~ everywhere nowadays.

Which absolutely needs to be discussed in a thread about SpaceX, NASA, and going to Mars.
 

Offline NottheDan

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #289 on: July 27, 2018, 04:38:24 pm »
Sure sure, some military test pilots bounced on the Moon for a few days

I'd like to point out those test pilots were also engineers  ;D
Harrison Schmitt was neither a test pilot nor an engineer.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #290 on: July 27, 2018, 04:42:24 pm »

BTW, I remembered that not so long time ago there was one that exploded in midair in Russia. Not that big to cause huge damage but there was some real damage indeed.


Definitely the answer to that is to colonize Mars. Definitely. Meanwhile, let's continue maintaining a large collection of nuclear weapons, but let's focus on the Asteroid Of Death, because that's just so pressing.

I think you are fixated on an incidental point and missing out on the bigger picture.

You want a bigger picture? OK, paint me this: a million years ago, there were no humans. Evolution is still happening. There won't be humans in another million years.

So much for your precious "species". If dinosaurs had farted their asteroid of doom away, we wouldn't have evolved at all.

So who are you to decide what may or may not evolve here?

We simply do not have the technology or resources to enable any of the "Space Prepper" nonsense. It's all just so much gothic space opera.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #291 on: July 27, 2018, 04:44:05 pm »
Which absolutely needs to be discussed in a thread about SpaceX, NASA, and going to Mars.
Taxpayers weren't very happy back in the day when the space race was taking place, with the exhorbitant amounts spent. I'd guess many US citizens would rather prefer not to add to the 18 trillions (+ interest) debt, just to please Musk's wet space dreams, so to speak.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 05:21:21 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #292 on: July 27, 2018, 05:05:15 pm »
Taxpayers weren't very happy back in the day when the space race was taking place, with the exhorbitant amounts spent. I'd guess many US citizens would rather prefer not to add to the 18 trillions (+ interest) debt, just to please Musk's wet space dreams, so to speak.

Very odd, since I was assured that space spinoffs enabled a 7$ return for every 1$ spent. Are you telling me the taxpayers weren't happy when they all got their checks for 6$?
 
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Offline Eka

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #293 on: July 27, 2018, 05:43:59 pm »
So, I suck at English. My language centers in my brain were rather badly damaged in my early 20s.
There is no vitriol against space. Space is a vacuum, it is inert. I am upset at the cloud-shovelling nerds with their space pseudo-religion earnestly charting out the future of humanity in the galaxy. Guys, Star Trek was fiction. It's just you, me, the Periodic Table of the Elements and the four forces. There are no dilithium crystals, no duranium, no tungsten verteride carbon matrix, no structural integrity fields, no warp drive, no transporters, no replicators, no aliens that look like us, no artificial gravity, no Vulcans, no habitable planets just days away in a magical spaceship that doesn't exist.
You know, the only reason I watched any Star Trek at all is because my brother watched it. Instead I often curled up with a book. Meaty tomes like the "Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing" where the type of book I read. If anything infected me with the desire to go to space, it was the Apollo missions I saw on TV as a child. For extra credit for a community college astronomy course I took when I was 12, I learned to solve orbits to pilot a space ship. Why, because I wanted to do it some day. I taught myself Chaos Theory, String Theory, and many other things because I was interested in them. I also learned more down to earth things like photography, painting, and clothing design. Learning programming, and electronics were a means to an end. What did you fill your brain with? What inspires you?
By all means, send all the A-type test pilots in diapers to play guitar badly in the ISS and grow tomato seeds in free fall and call it vitally important science. I chuckle.
"Food, Glorious Food" you obviously don't care about it. I'd guess you've never had to go hungry, nor worked with those who did.
But when you start thinking that Mars is just a hop and a skip away and how simple it all could be if we just listened to you because you read sci-fi, that's where I draw the line.
You make a lot of assumptions about others. That isn't wise to do.
Space is huge. Space is dead. Space is hostile. We are here. We are not going anywhere with kerosene and carbon fiber no matter how good our computers get. Sure sure, some military test pilots bounced on the Moon for a few days after the most powerful nation in history worked at it for an entire decade. So what? They came back after a week.

It's over. The future is here and it ain't in space. If it was as simple as the Space Nutters keep telling us then why didn't it happen when everyone and everything was working towards space 50 years ago? Human curiosity didn't change, did it? They had rich people back then too, right? So why didn't it happen? The same generation that built the Concorde, mind you.
As the saying goes "Can't never did anything." Are you afraid of failure? I've had my share. Some even nearly killed me. I hedge my bets, and then go for it. I much prefer being a can do person. Space is a challenge, a very big challenge. Especially to do it right and survive to tell the tale. Can you say you survived a tire blowout at over 350 kph? I can. I for one would be very willing to go put my footprint on Mars even if I was the 10,000th person to do so. Yeah, I'd make sure my space ship is as safe as reasonable, but I wouldn't let a small possibility of failure stop me. I think you seriously underestimate the capabilities of the designers and engineers. SpaceX is designing their systems to continue to work despite failures. Their own lives may be depending on their workmanship.

As I've said before, the will of the average person wasn't behind space exploration, and the only players that had the money were governments. The tech was there to make a moon colony 50 years ago. There just wasn't the will of the people to pay for it. That's all. Musk is betting there will be an industrial and tourism desire to go to space, and he is paying for the development costs and initial overhead for the transportation service via satellite launches. He doesn't want to make the hotel, or build the town. He's there to provide transportation. His BFR is designed for launching satellites, lunar trips, and Mars trips. It can even do suborbital hops from place to place on earth and take a few hundred people along for the ride. It's pressurized cabin is bigger than the A380's pressurized cabin and 8 stories tall. How would you like to go from NYC to Sydney in less than an hour?

The rich and those with lush expense accounts gladly paid for Concorde flights to get them across the pond faster. I took a few of them myself, but only if I had to get there now and their schedule fit mine. Like the day one of my partners was in an auto accident. I'm sorry to whomever that got bumped that day, but I did need to get to her side ASAP. Thing is the rich tend to be even more tight wads about their money and tax money than the poor or middle classes are. They want tax money spent in ways that will make them money now, or not collected at all. Many can't see spending now for much bigger profits ten or twenty years down the road. Me! Me! Me! Now! Now! Now! is their greedy cry. No planning for the long term future at all. Musk is playing the long game, but he's also being smart and financing it with current income.

Noise canceling headphones made Concorde flights tolerable. I much preferred traveling in ocean crossing biz jets equipped with beds and baths. Sure, a sub 1 hour suborbital flight like Elan Musk's BFR would be able to do would have been nicer, but they weren't offered back then, and I can nearly guarantee they wouldn't have fit my schedule. The 4 hour Concorde flights rarely did, so I rarely used them even though I was traveling back and forth between NYC or Washington DC and France, and later London too every couple weeks. Instead I took 8 to 9 hour over night flights and slept nice and comfortably for most of them.

Why did those jets I flew in have beds and baths? That's because a lady saw a need, and provided the flying hotel rooms to fill it. I'm glad she did. I was her first customer for the service. Within a year her regulars were keeping 3 planes busy. Yeah, a flight in one of them made a Concorde flight look cheap, but you got a nice bed to sleep in, a bath or shower in the morning, and excellent meals prepared from scratch right on the plane so you emerged from the plane nice and refreshed. Last I knew her fleet of charter jets had over thirty in it. All have 1 or 2 double or queen sized beds. When people want to get to and from Mars faster, faster engines will be developed. There are many very realistic designs already on the drawing board. They just lack the funds to create them. Musk's engines will do for now. Especially considering he has upped the efficiency a lot. That allows them to go faster, and or bring more payload. His fuel choice is excellent because the components are plentiful, and cheap and easy to make using a well researched process and can be made at both ends of the trip. Perfect for an automated facility to produce.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #294 on: July 27, 2018, 05:46:20 pm »
Sure sure, some military test pilots bounced on the Moon for a few days

I'd like to point out those test pilots were also engineers  ;D
Harrison Schmitt was neither a test pilot nor an engineer.
True. He was the first person with true scientific training prior to becoming an astronaut with a PhD in Geology. NASA then trained him to be a jet pilot and a lunar module pilot, along with all the other things every astronaut has to learn. He designed and trained people in collection techniques used on the moon. Obviously there was a lot of practical engineering acquired along the way. He became a professor of engineering physics after he was done with his astronaut and political careers, which should support that assertation.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #295 on: July 27, 2018, 05:47:47 pm »

"Food, Glorious Food" you obviously don't care about it. I'd guess you've never had to go hungry, nor worked with those who did.
But when you start thinking that Mars is just a hop and a skip away and how simple it all could be if we just listened to you because you read sci-fi, that's where I draw the line.
You make a lot of assumptions about others. That isn't wise to do.


 :-//

Rest of your Russian novel edited. Look, it all sounds wonderful for you, but how does any of that enable the space opera?
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #296 on: July 27, 2018, 06:48:52 pm »
The Russians started their "space race" because of peculiar Russian ideas about Futurism, in particular that once scientists cure all diseases and humans become effectively immortal, the Earth will rapidly fill with people and we will need to colonise space simply to get more room to live. However to get funds the idea was repackaged to the Generals as a weapons delivery platform, which the loved.

It is quite clear, and well documented fact, that Kennedy started the US manned space program purely to beat the Russians.

The Russians run out of money/skill/luck and gave up. The US beat the Russians, then gave up.

Musk idea to colonise Mars to provide a backup for Earth, which is entirely logical, except for some obvious flaws. His lofty ambitions are not dissimilar to the Russian Futurists, and Musk is also forced to finance the program through pragmatic means. I've no idea if he will succeed, I think a Mars colony will never work, but will only highlight how precious and isolated the Earth is. Still I look forward to seeing some boot prints on Mars, and preferably a UN flag...
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 
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Offline Echo88

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #297 on: July 27, 2018, 08:11:48 pm »
USA, other Nations and corporations need to deploy satellites for profit reasons, Musk enables cheaper transportation for said satellites, makes money (a part of the amount the ULA would get as a monopoly) and establish firms and employs many people who pay taxes. Please tell me George: How is that bad? And tell me how many people you employ, since your economic wisdom is apparently vast.  :palm:

@Vacuo: Im an atheist and see religion as absolut bullshit, but you dont see me jumping up and down like a mindless muppet in every possible way and make fun of religion as you do in this and another thread. You talk about 50 years ago and reason "if not 50 years ago, then not today" and now you interpolate about a million years as if you had a effing clue about it. But good thing: if it all happens you already became the dust that lays on earth forever.

 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #298 on: July 27, 2018, 10:21:31 pm »
USA, other Nations and corporations need to deploy satellites for profit reasons, Musk enables cheaper transportation for said satellites, makes money (a part of the amount the ULA would get as a monopoly) and establish firms and employs many people who pay taxes.

Yes, pays taxes with taxes, overunity FTW, that's how wealth is created (no).

You're the typical public sector employee that can't grasp that there's a productive sector (not you) that mantains the non productive (you) public sector: you guys keep growing like a cancer and live in delusion, an eighteen trillion (*) delusion already, keep sucking our blood like leeches and you'll ruin us, we'll sack everybody, and then you'll fall too. BOUMM. Hecatombe.

If you want to know what happens when the public sector grows too big, just look at the USSR: 100% public sector.

(*) Swap in the figure for your country.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 10:32:09 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline Nusa

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Re: Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars
« Reply #299 on: July 27, 2018, 10:30:39 pm »
By the way, many of the English-only speakers here probably have no clue what URSS is. In English the R comes at the end, not the middle, so USSR. Or you could have said Soviet Union as a short version of the long name.
 
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