Author Topic: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?  (Read 23682 times)

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Offline smile

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Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« on: February 13, 2013, 04:28:27 pm »
Hello, I was wondering why almost every one of you Americans are so should I say fools, or something.
What is wrong if a buyer asks for example to specify 10$ or so on the envelope?

You seem to love to pay taxes, surprise if you would not get a damn thing in return for doing so I bet you would not pay them. Are you kindergarten age or something and think that in every country it is OK to pay taxes, what you have you to say if I tell you that you have to pay 2x the price say 100$ just for getting something worth more than 20$.

I don't get it what is the problem of specifying whatever buyer asks on the envelope? You should be grateful to be able to sell and earn money. But almost everyone from USA I have dealt with thinks that I live in USA too. I do pay taxes too, but to pay 100$ just to get something above the stupid limit is nonsense. And as you know some things are made in USA only.
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 04:43:37 pm »
Maybe because it is lying or fraud.

Offline N2IXK

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 04:49:54 pm »
Exactly.

Why should the seller commit fraud by lying on a government document (customs declaration), just to help YOU evade your tax liability in your country.

If you object to the high import duties you have to pay, work to change them through your political process. Don't ask others to commit fraud just to save yourself some money.
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Offline Skimask

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 04:51:58 pm »
Maybe because it is lying or fraud.
+1

Not to mention the penalties/fines/etc.
Yes, we Americans as a whole, the  majority LOVE taxes!  We vote for them every year...continuously.  (Is the O/P's sarcasm detector working yet?)

I wonder how likely the O/P would be to pay those possible penalties/fines after a person/company deliberately devalues a shipped item for the purposes that the O/P suggests?

In any event, the O/P could just buy "whatever it is" from China off ebay and take his/her chances at getting a iPad that's actually an led, a small battery, 2 heavy nuts, some hot glue, all mounted in a nice plastic case.
I didn't take it apart.
I turned it on.

The only stupid question is, well, most of them...

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Offline free_electron

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 04:52:09 pm »
Multiple reasons
- Because it can be considered mail fraud.... Heavy penalties for the sender!
- insurance

Simply declare a package with real value keeps you out of trouble.

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Offline smile

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 05:08:36 pm »
Quote
If you object to the high import duties you have to pay, work to change them through your political process. Don't ask others to commit fraud just to save yourself some money.

Did you even read my post, buy for 20$ but tax is 100$

Quote
In any event, the O/P could just buy "whatever it is" from China off ebay and take his/her chances at getting a iPad that's actually an led, a small battery, 2 heavy nuts, some hot glue, all mounted in a nice plastic case.

Of we have those here too, I'm talking about some american only made devices like DMMcheck, ucurrent, other stuff you can't get in EU for some reason, if there were distributors I would buy from them. But to pay 160 for DMM check is nonSENSE.

Quote
Not to mention the penalties/fines/etc.
Tell me about it. Maybe the seller agreed to sell cheaper haven't it crossed you mind? You should understand that democracy is not everywhere in the world and that this in no commerce relate purchase either.
 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 05:17:51 pm »
Quote
If you object to the high import duties you have to pay, work to change them through your political process. Don't ask others to commit fraud just to save yourself some money.

Did you even read my post, buy for 20$ but tax is 100$

Yes, I read your post. Did you read my reply?

I agree that $100 in taxes on a $20 item is obscene. But it also firmly falls into the category of "YOUR PROBLEM".  That is an issue for you and your fellow citizens to take up with your government.  But rather than doing that, you would rather the seller put themselves at risk of a federal charge of mail fraud?
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Offline Fsck

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 05:23:38 pm »
Getting nailed, or having to battle, the charges of mail fraud will cost the sender *WAY* more than 100$.

Don't like it? Build your own. Most (basically, all that I've seen) of those items don't use proprietary parts, you can build them on your own and use conventional equipment for testing/validation.
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Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 05:24:04 pm »
On a purely self-interest level, forgetting the ethics of it, it may actually be a poor strategy to falsely declare. This is because the customs people have seen it all before and when something is marked "gift,  no commercial value" they pounce on it like hungry dogs on a bone. This of course is highly dependent on the country of import, the particular examiner and their mood that day.
 

Offline smile

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 05:26:04 pm »
Since when selling cheaper is mail fraud?
I can send you 2 payments, you can put the cheaper one on the envelope, no fraud in that. And the second for the rest of the value I have to pay.
 

Offline Adler

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 05:27:07 pm »
This thread is hilarious to me for some reason.
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 05:28:58 pm »
Sometimes I get commercial samples with a high-ish declared value, but I've never been taxed on such an item.

How are 2 payments for 1 item where you declare it's value for one payment, not a misrepresentation of facts?

Say, 500$ item, paid for as 10$ and 490$, declared for 10$: you imply this is legal.


@Adler, yes it's pretty funny.
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Offline mariush

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 05:36:59 pm »
As far as I know, you're in Lithuania..

You shouldn't have to pay 100$ fees.  Don't confuse VAT with customs fees.

Based on

http://www.dutycalculator.com/help_center/Import-duty-taxes-when-importing-into-Lithuania/

You pay 0 to 17% in customs fees, plus 21% vat on everything including shipping fees.  For electronics, this customs fee shouldn't be more than 5% of the product price on the invoice.

You should not pay customs fees if the value of the package is under 150 euro.. so you really only pay vat for  cost + shipping of the package.

So basically a dmmcheck is 35$ ... it's impossible to get to 100$ in fees.  At most the company would charge something like 50$ in shipping fees, like Amazon does if they force you to use the courier (2-4 days shipping) , then you'd pay  21% of 85 dollars in fees.

 

Offline smile

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 05:37:26 pm »
Sometimes I get commercial samples with a high-ish declared value, but I've never been taxed on such an item.

How are 2 payments for 1 item where you declare it's value for one payment, not a misrepresentation of facts?

Say, 500$ item, paid for as 10$ and 490$, declared for 10$: you imply this is legal.


@Adler, yes it's pretty funny.

First you say that declaring false value a HUGE problem for seller, then declare true value of 10$, no problem for you as seller there. Treat second payment as a GIF if you like I don't care.
 

Offline smile

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 05:45:17 pm »
As far as I know, you're in Lithuania..

Yes I'm in this corrupt EU country.

You shouldn't have to pay 100$ fees.  Don't confuse VAT with customs fees.

Based on

http://www.dutycalculator.com/help_center/Import-duty-taxes-when-importing-into-Lithuania/

You pay 0 to 17% in customs fees, plus 21% vat on everything including shipping fees.  For electronics, this customs fee shouldn't be more than 5% of the product price on the invoice.

You should not pay customs fees if the value of the package is under 150 euro.. so you really only pay vat for  cost + shipping of the package.

So basically a dmmcheck is 35$ ... it's impossible to get to 100$ in fees.  At most the company would charge something like 50$ in shipping fees, like Amazon does if they force you to use the courier (2-4 days shipping) , then you'd pay  21% of 85 dollars in fees.

You forgot that the post charges for paperwork about ~180Lt to 210Lt that is about 80$ if it's outside EU and the shipping value is added to the parcel value for tax calculation. Only then is the tax, vat calculated.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 05:46:54 pm »
other than fraud and penalty issues mentioned... if the buyer asked for envelop, and the envelop lost in the sea, who will the buyer blames? the seller of course! its back to square one, whether the seller complies or not to the buyer, its going to be lose-lose situation for them, then they pick the lesser evil, ie sending proper documentation and reliable courier service, buyer pays. as for tax issue, blame your government, dont blame sellers. i'm not in USA, but if i'm going to sell something international, i will highly advice the buyer to get proper courier and doc since it will bites one way or another (the parcel doesnt arrive or high tax rate). this is the reason i swear by chinese people and their courier service far better than anything else. cheap and reliable courier, and they (sellers) risk themselve a burden of declaring as "gift" or "toy", running away from tax is fun :D

try digikey! i made my first order from them recently. not just i have to pay Fedex cost = cost of all the junks electronics i ordered, but i checked in the tracking system that i should prepare for another pack of money (tax) when its arrived, sux. i suspect the tax is due to the stubborness of digikey to put a "company name" in the address and during login/order. i aint have any company, my company is myself! i never got taxed for electronics junks before! i tried to remove the company name from my profile but it wont like to get deleted. in this case digikey is worst than ebay sellers because with digikey, i get "exclusive business rate tax"! imho.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:49:46 pm by Mechatrommer »
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 05:48:00 pm »
If I am sending stuff for free ( Yes, I do so occasionally for some things) I declare the value as the cost of the postage. otherwise I declare the actual cost of the goods. Never had a complaint from the other side. Of course, it is hard to say anything about his/her country's often Byzantine customs legislation. In many cases if you work nicely with the customs people ( smile, be friendly and most importantly pay with one every time) they often can find a rule that applies to your parcel ( you gotta love that book that can apply multiple sections depending on how it is declared) that has a lower rate. Make them angry with you and they look at the highest rates.
 

Offline mariush

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 06:15:04 pm »
You forgot that the post charges for paperwork about ~180Lt to 210Lt that is about 80$ if it's outside EU and the shipping value is added to the parcel value for tax calculation. Only then is the tax, vat calculated.

Well that's stupid. Isn't the post office a public institution or something like that?  It's their job to check the packages, there shouldn't be any additional fees other than the customs and vat.

Try and see what happens when you get packages through UPS or Fedex. Here in Romania, they determine all the customs and vat fees and charge them separately, so the packages don't go through the local post system.
The shipping is more expensive, but if you save money this way by not paying those post office fees, it may work better for you.

As far as I understand, those fees should only be charged if they have to open the package, do inspection, basically waste time checking prices if you don't have an accurate invoice in the package for them to determine the value.  It's no meant to be a charge on all packages.
But I'm not an expert.

As SeanB says... being nice to them, saying thank you etc can help quite a lot as well.  At the post office, I've got maybe 10-20 packages in the last year, they recognize me and they never bothered to ask me to pay even when I had an oscilloscope in the package, for example (so heavy, looks expensive and all that - I even told them how much it was)
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 06:35:25 pm »
First you say that declaring false value a HUGE problem for seller, then declare true value of 10$, no problem for you as seller there. Treat second payment as a GIF if you like I don't care.
and how do we enter that in bookkeeping ?

@mechatrommer : if you are a business you pay no tax. tax is shoved through to the end user. If you are the end user you eat the tax. simple as that.
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Offline DavidDLC

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 07:08:51 pm »
Some government systems are designed to protect local businesses, so they make you pay way more for an item acquire in a different country and somehow force you to buy locally.

You can argue that the item you are looking for, you cannot get it in your country, I don't know if that will help, but maybe you can try it.

David.
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 07:28:33 pm »
smile, the local carrier ripping you off is YOUR PROBLEM. Funny that you complain about corruption in Lithuania, but advocate fraud in the US. Should every country try to become as rotten as Lithuania, just so you can save some money?

You know, you sound like the typical kid who didn't properly educate himself before ordering overseas. You were just blinded by the price ex. VAT, didn't pay attention to shipping cost, the tricks of carriers, customs and now you get an expensive lesson. Well, or maybe you don't.
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Offline lewis

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 07:35:24 pm »
Import duty is a fact of life. Here in the EU that's an easy thing to forget when importing something from outside the European Economic Area, as almost everything within the EEA is in free movement and attracts no import tax.

Some postal services will levy additional fees for handling the import duty for you, they have to pay customs then they invoice you, so they charge for the privilege. Fair enough. DHL, Fed-ex and UPS charge something like £9.50 to do this, your state-owned postal service will probably charge more. VAT is also levied by your government, here in the UK is it 20% for most things. But if you are VAT-registered, which you will be if you're a business, you claim this back. So you should be paying 0-20% of the value of the item in import duty, plus customs clearing fees, plus VAT.

Expecting your foreign supplier to under-declare the customs value is not trivial, he would be committing fraud by doing this, and as a business he's got better things to worry about than you moaning about your local laws. He'd rather not supply you than worry about his local customs authorities throwing the book at him.

If you want one party in the transaction to commit fraud, make sure it's you. Don't get arsey with your supplier because he's not willing to take any legal flak for you.
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Offline lewis

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 08:35:26 pm »
People make some valid points. They left out the most likely though, a conspiracy on the part of US merchants to piss you off. ;)

God-damn foreigners, comin' over here, buying our god-damn made in the YOU! ESS! HEY! products, god-damn limeys, takin' our god-damn jobs, with their god-damn not-celebrating-fourtha-july commie god-damningess. God-damnit!
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Offline Colfaxmingo

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2013, 09:00:10 pm »
DE TERK ER JERBS!
Rare Medium Well Done
 

Offline FenderBender

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Re: Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2013, 09:18:03 pm »
People make some valid points. They left out the most likely though, a conspiracy on the part of US merchants to piss you off. ;)

God-damn foreigners, comin' over here, buying our god-damn made in the YOU! ESS! HEY! products, god-damn limeys, takin' our god-damn jobs, with their god-damn not-celebrating-fourtha-july commie god-damningess. God-damnit!

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