Why USA sellers do not want to specify lower parcel value?

[smile]

Hello, I was wondering why almost every one of you Americans are so should I say fools, or something.
What is wrong if a buyer asks for example to specify 10$ or so on the envelope?

You seem to love to pay taxes, surprise if you would not get a damn thing in return for doing so I bet you would not pay them. Are you kindergarten age or something and think that in every country it is OK to pay taxes, what you have you to say if I tell you that you have to pay 2x the price say 100$ just for getting something worth more than 20$.

I don't get it what is the problem of specifying whatever buyer asks on the envelope? You should be grateful to be able to sell and earn money. But almost everyone from USA I have dealt with thinks that I live in USA too. I do pay taxes too, but to pay 100$ just to get something above the stupid limit is nonsense. And as you know some things are made in USA only.

[robrenz]

Maybe because it is lying or fraud.

[N2IXK]

Exactly.

Why should the seller commit fraud by lying on a government document (customs declaration), just to help YOU evade your tax liability in your country.

If you object to the high import duties you have to pay, work to change them through your political process. Don't ask others to commit fraud just to save yourself some money.

[Skimask]

Maybe because it is lying or fraud.

+1

Not to mention the penalties/fines/etc.
Yes, we Americans as a whole, the  majority LOVE taxes!  We vote for them every year...continuously.  (Is the O/P's sarcasm detector working yet?)

I wonder how likely the O/P would be to pay those possible penalties/fines after a person/company deliberately devalues a shipped item for the purposes that the O/P suggests?

In any event, the O/P could just buy "whatever it is" from China off ebay and take his/her chances at getting a iPad that's actually an led, a small battery, 2 heavy nuts, some hot glue, all mounted in a nice plastic case.

[free_electron]

Multiple reasons
- Because it can be considered mail fraud.... Heavy penalties for the sender!
- insurance

Simply declare a package with real value keeps you out of trouble.

http://blog.rubylane.com/node/909

[smile]

If you object to the high import duties you have to pay, work to change them through your political process. Don't ask others to commit fraud just to save yourself some money.

Did you even read my post, buy for 20$ but tax is 100$

In any event, the O/P could just buy "whatever it is" from China off ebay and take his/her chances at getting a iPad that's actually an led, a small battery, 2 heavy nuts, some hot glue, all mounted in a nice plastic case.

Of we have those here too, I'm talking about some american only made devices like DMMcheck, ucurrent, other stuff you can't get in EU for some reason, if there were distributors I would buy from them. But to pay 160 for DMM check is nonSENSE.

Not to mention the penalties/fines/etc.

Tell me about it. Maybe the seller agreed to sell cheaper haven't it crossed you mind? You should understand that democracy is not everywhere in the world and that this in no commerce relate purchase either.

[N2IXK]

If you object to the high import duties you have to pay, work to change them through your political process. Don't ask others to commit fraud just to save yourself some money.

Did you even read my post, buy for 20$ but tax is 100$

Yes, I read your post. Did you read my reply?

I agree that $100 in taxes on a $20 item is obscene. But it also firmly falls into the category of "YOUR PROBLEM".  That is an issue for you and your fellow citizens to take up with your government.  But rather than doing that, you would rather the seller put themselves at risk of a federal charge of mail fraud?

[Fsck]

Getting nailed, or having to battle, the charges of mail fraud will cost the sender *WAY* more than 100$.

Don't like it? Build your own. Most (basically, all that I've seen) of those items don't use proprietary parts, you can build them on your own and use conventional equipment for testing/validation.

[chickenHeadKnob]

On a purely self-interest level, forgetting the ethics of it, it may actually be a poor strategy to falsely declare. This is because the customs people have seen it all before and when something is marked "gift,  no commercial value" they pounce on it like hungry dogs on a bone. This of course is highly dependent on the country of import, the particular examiner and their mood that day.

[smile]

Since when selling cheaper is mail fraud?
I can send you 2 payments, you can put the cheaper one on the envelope, no fraud in that. And the second for the rest of the value I have to pay.

[Adler]

This thread is hilarious to me for some reason.

[Fsck]

Sometimes I get commercial samples with a high-ish declared value, but I've never been taxed on such an item.

How are 2 payments for 1 item where you declare it's value for one payment, not a misrepresentation of facts?

Say, 500$ item, paid for as 10$ and 490$, declared for 10$: you imply this is legal.


@Adler, yes it's pretty funny.

[mariush]

As far as I know, you're in Lithuania..

You shouldn't have to pay 100$ fees.  Don't confuse VAT with customs fees.

Based on

http://www.dutycalculator.com/help_center/Import-duty-taxes-when-importing-into-Lithuania/

You pay 0 to 17% in customs fees, plus 21% vat on everything including shipping fees.  For electronics, this customs fee shouldn't be more than 5% of the product price on the invoice.

You should not pay customs fees if the value of the package is under 150 euro.. so you really only pay vat for  cost + shipping of the package.

So basically a dmmcheck is 35$ ... it's impossible to get to 100$ in fees.  At most the company would charge something like 50$ in shipping fees, like Amazon does if they force you to use the courier (2-4 days shipping) , then you'd pay  21% of 85 dollars in fees.

[smile]

Sometimes I get commercial samples with a high-ish declared value, but I've never been taxed on such an item.

How are 2 payments for 1 item where you declare it's value for one payment, not a misrepresentation of facts?

Say, 500$ item, paid for as 10$ and 490$, declared for 10$: you imply this is legal.


@Adler, yes it's pretty funny.

First you say that declaring false value a HUGE problem for seller, then declare true value of 10$, no problem for you as seller there. Treat second payment as a GIF if you like I don't care.

[smile]

As far as I know, you're in Lithuania..

Yes I'm in this corrupt EU country.

You shouldn't have to pay 100$ fees.  Don't confuse VAT with customs fees.

Based on

http://www.dutycalculator.com/help_center/Import-duty-taxes-when-importing-into-Lithuania/

You pay 0 to 17% in customs fees, plus 21% vat on everything including shipping fees.  For electronics, this customs fee shouldn't be more than 5% of the product price on the invoice.

You should not pay customs fees if the value of the package is under 150 euro.. so you really only pay vat for  cost + shipping of the package.

So basically a dmmcheck is 35$ ... it's impossible to get to 100$ in fees.  At most the company would charge something like 50$ in shipping fees, like Amazon does if they force you to use the courier (2-4 days shipping) , then you'd pay  21% of 85 dollars in fees.

You forgot that the post charges for paperwork about ~180Lt to 210Lt that is about 80$ if it's outside EU and the shipping value is added to the parcel value for tax calculation. Only then is the tax, vat calculated.

[Mechatrommer]

other than fraud and penalty issues mentioned... if the buyer asked for envelop, and the envelop lost in the sea, who will the buyer blames? the seller of course! its back to square one, whether the seller complies or not to the buyer, its going to be lose-lose situation for them, then they pick the lesser evil, ie sending proper documentation and reliable courier service, buyer pays. as for tax issue, blame your government, dont blame sellers. i'm not in USA, but if i'm going to sell something international, i will highly advice the buyer to get proper courier and doc since it will bites one way or another (the parcel doesnt arrive or high tax rate). this is the reason i swear by chinese people and their courier service far better than anything else. cheap and reliable courier, and they (sellers) risk themselve a burden of declaring as "gift" or "toy", running away from tax is fun

try digikey! i made my first order from them recently. not just i have to pay Fedex cost = cost of all the junks electronics i ordered, but i checked in the tracking system that i should prepare for another pack of money (tax) when its arrived, sux. i suspect the tax is due to the stubborness of digikey to put a "company name" in the address and during login/order. i aint have any company, my company is myself! i never got taxed for electronics junks before! i tried to remove the company name from my profile but it wont like to get deleted. in this case digikey is worst than ebay sellers because with digikey, i get "exclusive business rate tax"! imho.

[SeanB]

If I am sending stuff for free ( Yes, I do so occasionally for some things) I declare the value as the cost of the postage. otherwise I declare the actual cost of the goods. Never had a complaint from the other side. Of course, it is hard to say anything about his/her country's often Byzantine customs legislation. In many cases if you work nicely with the customs people ( smile, be friendly and most importantly pay with one every time) they often can find a rule that applies to your parcel ( you gotta love that book that can apply multiple sections depending on how it is declared) that has a lower rate. Make them angry with you and they look at the highest rates.

[mariush]

You forgot that the post charges for paperwork about ~180Lt to 210Lt that is about 80$ if it's outside EU and the shipping value is added to the parcel value for tax calculation. Only then is the tax, vat calculated.

Well that's stupid. Isn't the post office a public institution or something like that?  It's their job to check the packages, there shouldn't be any additional fees other than the customs and vat.

Try and see what happens when you get packages through UPS or Fedex. Here in Romania, they determine all the customs and vat fees and charge them separately, so the packages don't go through the local post system.
The shipping is more expensive, but if you save money this way by not paying those post office fees, it may work better for you.

As far as I understand, those fees should only be charged if they have to open the package, do inspection, basically waste time checking prices if you don't have an accurate invoice in the package for them to determine the value.  It's no meant to be a charge on all packages.
But I'm not an expert.

As SeanB says... being nice to them, saying thank you etc can help quite a lot as well.  At the post office, I've got maybe 10-20 packages in the last year, they recognize me and they never bothered to ask me to pay even when I had an oscilloscope in the package, for example (so heavy, looks expensive and all that - I even told them how much it was)

[free_electron]

First you say that declaring false value a HUGE problem for seller, then declare true value of 10$, no problem for you as seller there. Treat second payment as a GIF if you like I don't care.

and how do we enter that in bookkeeping ?

@mechatrommer : if you are a business you pay no tax. tax is shoved through to the end user. If you are the end user you eat the tax. simple as that.

[DavidDLC]

Some government systems are designed to protect local businesses, so they make you pay way more for an item acquire in a different country and somehow force you to buy locally.

You can argue that the item you are looking for, you cannot get it in your country, I don't know if that will help, but maybe you can try it.

David.

[Bored@Work]

smile, the local carrier ripping you off is YOUR PROBLEM. Funny that you complain about corruption in Lithuania, but advocate fraud in the US. Should every country try to become as rotten as Lithuania, just so you can save some money?

You know, you sound like the typical kid who didn't properly educate himself before ordering overseas. You were just blinded by the price ex. VAT, didn't pay attention to shipping cost, the tricks of carriers, customs and now you get an expensive lesson. Well, or maybe you don't.

[lewis]

Import duty is a fact of life. Here in the EU that's an easy thing to forget when importing something from outside the European Economic Area, as almost everything within the EEA is in free movement and attracts no import tax.

Some postal services will levy additional fees for handling the import duty for you, they have to pay customs then they invoice you, so they charge for the privilege. Fair enough. DHL, Fed-ex and UPS charge something like £9.50 to do this, your state-owned postal service will probably charge more. VAT is also levied by your government, here in the UK is it 20% for most things. But if you are VAT-registered, which you will be if you're a business, you claim this back. So you should be paying 0-20% of the value of the item in import duty, plus customs clearing fees, plus VAT.

Expecting your foreign supplier to under-declare the customs value is not trivial, he would be committing fraud by doing this, and as a business he's got better things to worry about than you moaning about your local laws. He'd rather not supply you than worry about his local customs authorities throwing the book at him.

If you want one party in the transaction to commit fraud, make sure it's you. Don't get arsey with your supplier because he's not willing to take any legal flak for you.

[lewis]

People make some valid points. They left out the most likely though, a conspiracy on the part of US merchants to piss you off.

God-damn foreigners, comin' over here, buying our god-damn made in the YOU! ESS! HEY! products, god-damn limeys, takin' our god-damn jobs, with their god-damn not-celebrating-fourtha-july commie god-damningess. God-damnit!

[Colfaxmingo]

DE TERK ER JERBS!

[FenderBender]

People make some valid points. They left out the most likely though, a conspiracy on the part of US merchants to piss you off.

God-damn foreigners, comin' over here, buying our god-damn made in the YOU! ESS! HEY! products, god-damn limeys, takin' our god-damn jobs, with their god-damn not-celebrating-fourtha-july commie god-damningess. God-damnit!

Interesting representation

[JoeyP]

One of the penalties of customs fraud is losing your rights to export. So the vendor's reward for helping you defraud your government is losing his ability to export to any customers at all. So according to your assertion, ya, they stupidly want to stay in business.

[Achilles]

If you want a lower invoice buy in China..... High chances they'll do it anyway, even if you ask them to declare the right value for fast processing.
Well, that lower value doesn't help you with fees from you delivery service.

And apart from all that
Scenario a:
-You buy sth. for 10USD (actual price) and pay probably 15USD shipping (if cheap) and 80Euro brokerage fees
-> I guess buying it locally would have been smarter
Scenario b:
-You buy some equipment for 400USD and 400USD is declared
-> Just pay for what you have received like you should. You have to calculate what the product plus VAT, customs, shipping and fees will end up. If it's more than on the local market, buy it there.
I don't get why a US seller should care about your problem there and risk his own reputation/business just because you don't want to pay what you should.

[grumpydoc]

Actually I'd much rather if sellers, especially from the far east would put the correct value on the package.

The problem is that in the UK (and probably, in theory at least, Lithuania as it is part of the EU and officially has a similar framework for import duties and taxes) the government will come after me for the tax evasion.

It's simple really from their point of view. They might not have the sender's name or address and even if they did they live comfortably outside the government's jurisdiction. They do however have the recipient's address and as a bonus they hold legal powers over him/her - who do you think they're going to chase?

Revenue&Customs in the UK are generally not to be messed with - they have all sorts of entertaining and far reaching powers. Even though they were trimmed down a bit a few years ago they still have the right to turn up to business premises unannounced and gain entry and inspect tax records. These days, at least, they aren't allowed to search or enter residential premises; well, not without a warrant but I bet that's really hard for them to get - not!

[haveissues]

DE TERK ER JERBS!

I was reading through this thread expecting to see the above reference and you did not disappoint.

It's those damn Americans screwing you eh?  Your anger is misplaced.  I recently bought a wood fired wood boiler in the Czech Republic and imported it to the states.  I paid $0 in taxes/import duty since it was for personal use. If it was for business it would only be a couple of %.  Sure the amount you have to pay is obscene but why should the seller get stuck with the bill when they get caught?  And yes, this thread is amusing.  I was expecting a punch line but it did not come.

[Corporate666]

I send hundreds of packages per year overseas, and here is why I don't declare lower values.


1) Almost EVERYONE asks me to do it.  For the receiver, sure, it's "just this once", but if I do it when asked, I'd be doing it for everyone.  And if I ever have someone knocking on my door because I have been under-valuing packages, I'm going to be in trouble for each and every time I did it.  In other words, I have a lot more to lose than you do.

2) You can't declare an item worth $10 but insure it for $500.  If the package is lost, the receiver can just do a chargeback on their credit card or open a PayPal dispute.  The fact that I would be out $490 isn't going to weigh on their conscience.  On the other hand, if they could not get their money back and I reimbursed them $10 from the insurance payout, the buyer is going to go ape-shit over that.  In other words, you want me to take the risk of being caught lying about value, but you're not willing to take the risk on the package being lost - you want me to take that risk too.

3) I agree that import taxes and duties are too high.  The solution is to change your laws - elect people who are in favor of fixing the problem.  If you successfully avoid it, then you turn into Greece, where they enact ever more stringent laws, and ever more people avoid them.  And we know what happens then.

[Chasm]

Actually I'd much rather if sellers, especially from the far east would put the correct value on the package.

Yeah, getting correctly declared stuff through customs is easy, undeclared or falsely declared things are a real pain.

What I dislike most is that I also have to pay on the shipping cost. That US sellers seem to love expensive shipping methods even for extremely cheap, small and light parts does not help either.

[haveissues]

DE TERK ER JERBS!

I was reading through this thread expecting to see the above reference and you did not disappoint.

It's those damn Americans screwing you eh?  Your anger is misplaced.  I recently bought a wood fired wood boiler in the Czech Republic and imported it to the states.  I paid $0 in taxes/import duty since it was for personal use. If it was for business it would only be a couple of %.  Sure the amount you have to pay is obscene but why should the seller get stuck with the bill when they get caught?  And yes, this thread is amusing.  I was expecting a punch line but it did not come.

I'm guessing you're not a South Park fan.



I don't think it was meant to be serious.

I think you misunderstood mine 

I was expecting somebody to make the south park reference before I found it.  I didn't think it was meant to be serious either.

[larry42]

Here the post office charges 50usd for doing customs work. I hate it, but not much I can do. Ups and FedEx are actually cheaper....

I'm glad when the HK dealers write values of 5 USD because as a registered company I can get the VAT back anyway, but the costs (and administration costs in paying account to put another transaction in the ledger) means that its a hassle, but expected, when things are declared for their full value.

The op seems rather naive...

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[Mechatrommer]

@mechatrommer : if you are a business you pay no tax. tax is shoved through to the end user. If you are the end user you eat the tax. simple as that.

and that is even funnier. say a company want to send parts to its engineer. and the engineer has to pay that tax at "business rate"? poor guy. that poor guy usually ordered electronics from China with no tax at all. i dont get how this digikey mechanism works. and it wont make any difference if the company is run by a single person , the end user = company = pay "business class" tax. my point still stands.

[senso]

Here in Portugal its almost the same, but there is one fundamental rule, avoid FedEx, DHL, UPS and some other shipping companies, because they are very kind and will charge you about 90€ so that you don't need to spend any time sending an email to the customs, that 90€ is a fee for their so kind work, and its all for them, in top of that you pay VAT, and custom duties, I love when people from USA ship using USPS as that is handled by our national post ofices and all you need to pay is VAT, custom fees, and 3€ for the service, VAT is a pain, due to its exaggerated 23% value, but the fees are usually in the 0.x% to 5% of total.

[tinhead]

If you want a lower invoice buy in China.....

right, it is really hard to get real price on Chinese invoice. This is due the fact that they have to pay as well
if the total value is too high for a "gift", "comercial samples" from small dealer are anyway not possible
(oh well, they don't want to be tracked down as dealer ...).

For me it was always a disaster, each time i had to explain to customs dep the difference in my and "chinese" price, each time
the same fight with tax departement - customs dep know this issue, but tax don't, and they don't trust anybody anyway :\

I found a solution, a contact person in China is buying items for me, preparing all documents with proper price and sending
then all together - per express - no EMS crap, no extra f* EMS fees what so ever, and of course properly insured,
i hate to lose money only because i was thinking to save some money with cheating myself (this works for 1$ item one time,
but when you lose items for hundreds of $$$ you will not cheat on yourself next time).

What i hate are US sellers with the (non existing in most case) "company policy" to send things only via UPS or FedEx - but not
and never via USPS. I've tested view such idiots already, tried to buy from Germany "ihh no, we can't ship with USPS, company
policy, only FedEx or UPS" ... ok, then tested same item with my canadian account "no problem, we can ship with USPS", when
asked why got everyhtign as answer, from fuck off to "Europe is not Canada, it is so complex for us" .. yeah, right, but only is you
have to paddle with small boat over the ocean ... but what i complex on custom papers? I remember even an idiot who told me
"i can send to UK, no problem for me, but not to Germany". I assume he didn't got that customs papers can be filled out in English
lang as well.

Sure, some have really such policy (e.g. to fullfil the req./signed amount of yearly shipments), but they could at least select cheaper
method - i really don't need for every crap thing "Next Day over the ocean" !

[Spawn]

I was wondering why almost every one of you Americans are so should I say fools, or something.

Awww, someone had to pay more and blame whole nation for it.

Newsflash for you my friend that is how it works, you can ask the seller to mark the shipment to lower value and if they don’t want to, you are free to buy or not, no one is obligating you.

Of we have those here too, I'm talking about some american only made devices like DMMcheck, ucurrent, other stuff you can't get in EU for some reason

uCurrent is not made in the states, should know that by now, besides there are couple online stores for uCurrent in Europe.

[EEVblog]

Since when selling cheaper is mail fraud?
I can send you 2 payments, you can put the cheaper one on the envelope, no fraud in that. And the second for the rest of the value I have to pay.

It's still fraud.
How can you not understand this?

N2IXK nailed it in his post. This is YOUR problem, not the senders. If your country taxes things to buggery, try to get your laws changed. Don't ask sellers overseas to commit fraud because your country has tax problems.
What have you done to try and fix your countries import tax problem?

Dave.

[EEVblog]

uCurrent is not made in the states, should know that by now, besides there are couple online stores for uCurrent in Europe.

There is only one official EU supplier for the uCurrent, Robot Italy.
I believe someone is selling an "Open Current", but if anyone else is selling an actual uCurrent, then I'd like to know about it...

Dave.

[smile]

other than fraud and penalty issues mentioned... if the buyer asked for envelop, and the envelop lost in the sea, who will the buyer blames? the seller of course! its back to square one,

I do believe that seller is not a fraud, and I don't care if I lose the parcel, it's a risk I'm willing to take.

[smile]

smile, the local carrier ripping you off is YOUR PROBLEM. Funny that you complain about corruption in Lithuania, but advocate fraud in the US. Should every country try to become as rotten as Lithuania, just so you can save some money?

I do not advocacy fraud,  I do not force anyone to sell intentionally, but if one chooses to sell internationally it is nice if the you understand that you better then do not sell to certain countries at all.

[smile]

Some postal services will levy additional fees for handling the import duty for you, they have to pay customs then they invoice you, so they charge for the privilege. Fair enough. DHL, Fed-ex and UPS charge something like £9.50 to do this, your state-owned postal service will probably charge more.

In my country DHL, and UPS charge the mentioned about 80$ too.

VAT is also levied by your government, here in the UK is it 20% for most things. But if you are VAT-registered, which you will be if you're a business, you claim this back. So you should be paying 0-20% of the value of the item in import duty, plus customs clearing fees, plus VAT.

In my country VAT is exempt if you are registered to do so, for small businesses VAT cannot be claimed back. And as you said by buying internatinally you allready pay VAT in the country you buy from. I'm OK with that but you please understand that the problem is with the "paperwork " they charge you so much for this that it's better to avoid it else not worth buying at all.

Expecting your foreign supplier to under-declare the customs value is not trivial, he would be committing fraud by doing this, and as a business he's got better things to worry about than you moaning about your local laws. He'd rather not supply you than worry about his local customs authorities throwing the book at him.

I'm not doing commerce here, I do not plan resell this. If I would do commerce I would not care, I would just increase my selling price. It's a one time purchase for personal use.

If you want one party in the transaction to commit fraud, make sure it's you. Don't get arsey with your supplier because he's not willing to take any legal flak for you.

Everyone chooses for what amount they sell their things online, why can't the seller like all other, believe me I buy from all over the world and only USA sellers are like this.

[smile]

One of the penalties of customs fraud is losing your rights to export. So the vendor's reward for helping you defraud your government is losing his ability to export to any customers at all. So according to your assertion, ya, they stupidly want to stay in business.

Can't you differentiate helping someone and doing commerce ?
If it's a one time purchase, and certainly I do not ask for invoices included in the parcel what kind of fraud is that.
Why can't you lower the value of the item for one time purchase what you can't do that even to help someone well that just shows how ignorant you are.

[smile]

I don't get why a US seller should care about your problem there and risk his own reputation/business just because you don't want to pay what you should.

The US seller should understand that it is simply helping someone with their one time purchase, I do not plan to import these illegally and sell it here, however somehow everyone seems to understand it exactly like this.

Sellers have the right to sell for whatever price they seem fit, so like I said if you want to include you paypal invoice with the parcel I can make you 2 transactions, no fraud there. And like I said I already payed VAT in USA.

[Bored@Work]

I do not advocacy fraud,

You do. You want senders to commit fraud - you just play the childish game of claiming that what you ask them to do is not fraud.

[smile]

uCurrent is not made in the states, should know that by now, besides there are couple online stores for uCurrent in Europe.

Any links?

[JoeyP]

One of the penalties of customs fraud is losing your rights to export. So the vendor's reward for helping you defraud your government is losing his ability to export to any customers at all. So according to your assertion, ya, they stupidly want to stay in business.

Can't you differentiate helping someone and doing commerce ?
If it's a one time purchase, and certainly I do not ask for invoices included in the parcel what kind of fraud is that.
Why can't you lower the value of the item for one time purchase what you can't do that even to help someone well that just shows how ignorant you are.

There's nothing to differentiate. As a vendor, I don't make the decision. The government does. If money changes hands, it's commerce. If I break the rules, I loose.

I accept that you don't give a crap about the vendor as long as it saves you money, but are you truly so dense that you can't even understand the concept?

I'm with the others who think this thread must be some deliberate hoax. No one can be that oblivious unless it is on purpose.

[EEVblog]

The US seller should understand that it is simply helping someone with their one time purchase

It is NOT!
You are asking them commit (albeit minor) FRAUD for your benefit!
What part of this do you not understand?

Sellers have the right to sell for whatever price they seem fit, so like I said if you want to include you paypal invoice with the parcel I can make you 2 transactions, no fraud there. And like I said I already payed VAT in USA.

You have no idea how this works.
When you send something overseas, you fill out a CN22 customs form. If you declare a value on that form of less than the actual value of the goods inside, you are making a fraudulent statement, and there are penalties for this. The same thing applies when you tick "gift" when you actually received money for it.
It does not mater how the payments were made, or for how much.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

uCurrent is not made in the states, should know that by now, besides there are couple online stores for uCurrent in Europe.

Any links?

http://www.robot-italy.com/en/blog/news-resources/418

But you would have known that is you simply checked my web site.

Dave.

[mikeselectricstuff]

And if I ever have someone knocking on my door because I have been under-valuing packages, I'm going to be in trouble for each and every time I did it.  In other words, I have a lot more to lose than you do.

That is never ever going to happen, as any import is a matter between the importer (the customer) and their local customs authority. Do you really think a foreign customs authority is going to come over to investigate and prosecute someone in a foreign country?

One problem is the USA has a quite high threshold before duties get charged ($200 -ish ISTR), so they often don't appreciate  that on even quite low value packages, buyers will get charged a disproportionate amount due to fixed handling fees.

Some also don't realise that the importer is charged the declared value plus the amount of postage, and include the postage in the declared value, so the buyer pays too much.

US people seem a lot more likely than others  to have a problem with reducing declared values - probably a cultural thing about following rule and fear of authority. Whearas I don't think I've ever had anything from China with the  right value!
 

[tld]

The US seller should understand that it is simply helping someone with their one time purchase, I do not plan to import these illegally and sell it here, however somehow everyone seems to understand it exactly like this.

I apologize for the language, it's uncommon for me, or at least I'd like to think so, but:

This is starting to piss me off.

Asking and expecting are two very different things.  I can understand the temptation to ask a seller nicely if they can lower the value a bit.  Paying more in import taxes/fees than a product cost surely is annoying, and it is a problem.  But more or less expecting that a seller commit fraud to help you out, demonstrates an unbelievable amount of egotistical feeling of entitlement.

The reason I decided to chip in on the topic is that I live in Norway.  I'm not an american defending american businesses, I'm a Norwegian, and that puts me in an even harsher boat than you.  We not only have the same problem importing from the US, but we don't even have the exception when buying from an EU-country.

Do import duties, VAT and fees bother me? Yeah, they do.

Do I try to get around it?  Sure.  I'll try to keep my orders smaller than exception threshold (€150 for Lithuania, about €27 for Norway).  I'll occasionally ask a seller if he's willing to sell me something a tad bit cheaper ("Hey, if you can sell me that thing for $36 instead of $37, I'll save $90, pretty please?"), or ask if they can split an order into multiple shipments lower than the threshold, that kind of thing.

Asking is one thing, but I would never actually expect them to jump through hoops for me, much less commit fraud for my sake.

tld

[JoeyP]

That is never ever going to happen, as any import is a matter between the importer (the customer) and their local customs authority. Do you really think a foreign customs authority is going to come over to investigate and prosecute someone in a foreign country?

That's not the regulatory issue for us in the USA. When we fill out customs forms, we are also declaring the value to -our- government, not just the receiving party's government. Our government has very strict regulations regarding this, and one consequence of not following them is losing all rights to export.

Our government keeps several lists of "denied persons" which must be checked before every shipment. Some of the lists are targeted more toward avoiding shipments to terrorists etc, but some of the lists include people who got there by violating export regulations. It's even possible to get in trouble shipping something entirely within the USA if you ship to someone on a denied person list. It is definitely worth following the rules if any part of your livelihood depends on exporting.

[vk3yedotcom]

US people seem a lot more likely than others  to have a problem with reducing declared values - probably a cultural thing about following rule and fear of authority. Whearas I don't think I've ever had anything from China with the  right value!
 

I agree it's probably a cultural thing.  There's also a degree of 'doing the right thing' or 'better to be safe than sorry' as much as fearing authority.

Countries started by the British or northern Europeans, Japanese and some others have developed strong institutions that engender trust in commercial transactions.  Not that they're perfect - eg Enron - but there's mostly a rule of law that goes unnoticed until its broken.   Stuff that we take for granted is not necessarily observed elsewhere.

When you read about how poorer countries can become more prosperous part of the reforms often suggested include building up culture, legal institutions and standards that allows business to work.  In other words set things up so others trust you, trade and lend money.  You export and then get wealthier.  Countries that have some success making stuff cheap reach a maturity and develop standards and become better credit risks as they develop (eg Singapore). 

This difference in outlook seems to be on display in this thread. 

You're far better off being financially secure and paying tax than boasting how you're evading it because you're both dodgy and poor.

[EEVblog]

That is never ever going to happen, as any import is a matter between the importer (the customer) and their local customs authority. Do you really think a foreign customs authority is going to come over to investigate and prosecute someone in a foreign country?

No, but they could potentially tell the local authorities, and they might investigate you if they think you are worth the trouble.
But that of course is beside the point of running a legitimate business and following the law.
You either chose to operate under the laws of your home country, or you chose to ignore them, knowingly act fraudulently, and accept any potential consequences. Those consequences, and the likelihood of getting caught might be low, but that doesn't make it right. Fraud is still fraud.

One problem is the USA has a quite high threshold before duties get charged ($200 -ish ISTR), so they often don't appreciate  that on even quite low value packages, buyers will get charged a disproportionate amount due to fixed handling fees.

In Oz the import threshold is a very generous $1000. It used to be much lower and similar to the US.

Some also don't realise that the importer is charged the declared value plus the amount of postage, and include the postage in the declared value, so the buyer pays too much.

Sure, many sellers might not realise that, but once again, it's the buyers problem, and not the seller who wants to operate within the law.

US people seem a lot more likely than others  to have a problem with reducing declared values - probably a cultural thing about following rule and fear of authority. Whearas I don't think I've ever had anything from China with the  right value!

Yes, there are huge cultural difference between China and western countries when it comes to this sort of attitude and respect for law etc.

Dave.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Asking and expecting are two very different things.  I can understand the temptation to ask a seller nicely if they can lower the value a bit.  Paying more in import taxes/fees than a product cost surely is annoying, and it is a problem.  But more or less expecting that a seller commit fraud to help you out, demonstrates an unbelievable amount of egotistical feeling of entitlement.

My usual request for low-value stuff is something like "I'd appreciate it if you could declare the value as x, as although the tax isn't much,  our Post office charges high handling fees. However I understand if you're not comfortable doing so. In any case please make sure the declared value does not include shipping, as the postage amount gets added to the amount charged at this end" Higher value stuff is less of an issue as most of it is VAT, which I can claim back.

Yes, there are huge cultural difference between China and western countries when it comes to this sort of attitude and respect for law etc.

China is an extreme example, but even between the US and the UK I think there is a big difference in attitude to such things.

best reply I ever got from a US seller when asking about shipping a manual for an old laser to UK was "No way will I ship to a potential enamy nation"



 
 

[Mechatrommer]

Some also don't realise that the importer is charged the declared value plus the amount of postage, and include the postage in the declared value, so the buyer pays too much.

exactly that! exactly seconded. my first experience is with USA item, the second time is with digikey. tax = f(declared value, courier cost) but i havent get any calculation paper for this digikey yet.

One problem is the USA has a quite high threshold before duties get charged ($200 -ish ISTR), so they often don't appreciate  that on even quite low value packages, buyers will get charged a disproportionate amount due to fixed handling fees.

my digikey order is alot less than that $60 item price. sure next time i think i'll order from them again, but for a very good reason only. each country has their own import and export regulation, sure we cant blame somebody else from another country for this, but time will tell, i always trust that "economy will balance itself". how much this regulation will impact the country, time will tell.

[MrPlacid]

i always trust that "economy will balance itself". how much this regulation will impact the country, time will tell.

I can tell you now. It is never gonna be fix. You see once government has a way to make money; they are not gonna want to stop taking money.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Can you get around the export price using a repackaging/buying service like comGateway?

Send everything as a gift to yourself.

[Chasm]

Not really. Check your regulations to see what gift actually means.

Customs can and will estimate the value if they suspect that the declaration is wrong. Then it is up to you to prove otherwise and get a new ruling. Usually after you paid.
Estimation is simple today. They definitely have Google.


A correct and legible declaration is the best way to avoid problems.
It is not hard. Item, Value, do not include s&h cost into item value. Enclosing a copy of the actual invoice -and stating so on the outside- also helps a lot. Much less discussion at the customs office that way.

Offering cheaper shipping methods for small and low value items can help the customer a lot.
If you use high end shipping because you can please get you customs declarations and invoices right! It is not very funny when customs officers start to estimate the cost of overnight guaranteed delivery - for a 10 cent sample part....

[lewis]

best reply I ever got from a US seller when asking about shipping a manual for an old laser to UK was "No way will I ship to a potential enamy nation"

That's priceless! Did he spell 'enemy' like that too?

[Wuerstchenhund]

best reply I ever got from a US seller when asking about shipping a manual for an old laser to UK was "No way will I ship to a potential enamy nation"

Some US sellers on ebay, selling some old crap (i.e. some 30 yrs old passive Tek scope probe, or old common computer hardware from 15 years ago), reply to questions asking if they ship to Europe with "no,  they can't" because export regulations prohibit them to sell high performance articles like these without government approval.   

[mikeselectricstuff]

best reply I ever got from a US seller when asking about shipping a manual for an old laser to UK was "No way will I ship to a potential enamy nation"

That's priceless! Did he spell 'enemy' like that too?

no - that was my tpyo

[EEVblog]

best reply I ever got from a US seller when asking about shipping a manual for an old laser to UK was "No way will I ship to a potential enamy nation"

*snort* 

Dave.

[grumpydoc]

best reply I ever got from a US seller when asking about shipping a manual for an old laser to UK was "No way will I ship to a potential enamy nation"

Probably thought UK meant Ukrane

...or possibly not

[Majes]

Odd thread for sure. I wasn't sure the question poised by the op was a joke or even serious.

America isn't a democracy sir, order from China if ya want democracy!

[c4757p]

Probably thought UK meant Ukrane

I don't know what your idiots are like across the pond, but here, if they're stupid enough not to know what "UK" means, they're stupid enough not to know what Ukraine is.

[jerry507]

This thread really is strange. One thing I wanted to add about reclaiming VAT, you guys are lucky. Here in the US taxes on "business to business" transactions vary state to state.

My business is registered in Iowa, and you need to fill out special paperwork to get a tax-exempt form. This allows you to avoid paying sales tax on anything you're going to sell to another business ONLY. If I bought a uCurrent, I couldn't avoid sales tax on that unless I was building it into a product I was going to sell to a distributor or something.

I live in Minnesota, and they're talking about adding sales tax to business to business transactions, which is ridiculous. Double taxation? No thanks!

There is also a "use tax" in Iowa, which is basically sales tax for out of state purchases. Digikey is very good about charging us this use tax, and will automatically apply it because Iowa asked them to. We had to file a tax exempt cert with them from Iowa to avoid it.

I understand the sellers POV, taxes suck. They suck even more when you run a business and get taxed here and there aside from the usual social security/medicare/income taxes that are regularly withheld here. We're used to some things but pitch a fit for others

[rsjsouza]

The interesting thing about this thread is that I learned a lot about the taxes applied to other countries. In my home country (Brazil) we face a similar scenario as everybody else, where any finished goods (not only equipment but also assembled boards) are taxed 80% with a sales tax of 25% on top of that.
To top all that, anything that the customs official suspects can be used for resale will suffer a delay of 30~45 days for closer inspection (I really suspect they do this to kill any possibility of resale, as no one would wait that long for shipping/handling...)

Because of all that we had a specific threshold of US$500.00 that balanced out cost and shipping time: if the total cost was below the threshold, we shipped them via a courier (Fedex/UPS/DHL) and paid everything of their express service; if above, we paid a local customs broker that dealt with all the paperwork. At the end we always had to pay the due taxes, but the paper handling made the difference in both cost and time.

For years me and my company tried to convince the local authorities to bring down the import taxes for development boards and JTAG pods, as they are used for development of new products locally (something the local government sees as positive), but they always pushed back on us saying the customs official can't tell the difference between a development board and a PC board (graphics cards, motherboards, etc.). The alternative was to manufacture them locally, but that was a very difficult option due to several reasons well known for anybody that deals with hardware manufacturing.

All in all, I agree with others: figure out how the customs of your country works, try to stay away from the bribe/under the table deals and, if possible, try to get in touch with people that has a possibility of changing this (not an easy thing when corruption is rampant - I know that very well).

[smile]

Just a parcel I got today, look at the beloved declaration:



However customs had no questions regarding unreadable declaration. So all I care you can leave it empty or write with vanishing ink.

[GeoffS]

Just a parcel I got today, look at the beloved declaration:

IMAGES DELETED

However customs had no questions regarding unreadable declaration. So all I care you can leave it empty or write with vanishing ink.

This merely shows that customs are busy people and don't get to check every item received or sent. Accidents do happen.
It in now way supports your argument that people should deliberately commit fraud for your financial advantage. When are you going to see the difference?

[Spawn]

When are you going to see the difference?

I think never GeoffS, you know why? Here is the answer:

Yes I'm in this corrupt EU country.

He is expecting same from other countries.

[Mechatrommer]

He is expecting same from other countries.

me too. thats the norm with every single nation today it will be just a waste of "patriotinism" time trying to be a good guy imho. politics is a "business". even i suspect with USA government, you dont know whats inside, what you know is whats on Fox News. name me any high ranking position that lives in a normal house like yours?

[Spawn]

Okay, I didn’t want to go further in to this, what I meant to say with that quote is, he is blaming his country being corrupt in this specific topic, so he is trying to say their customs are corrupt too, but I wonder if the customs of his country call him and say “hey we got a package for you here and the tax is around 150 euro but if you pay me 20 euro I wont charge you with that”

I don’t understand about your house example either. Was it ever different in human history?

[Mechatrommer]

I don’t understand about your house example either. Was it ever different in human history?

i mean do you have a governor lives in a house similar to normal people's house? i suspect no. some country's governor (and cronnies) live in a house similar to the "your majesty's castle"

smile's latest post showing he skipped tax proved that its just normal situation, where normal custom workers are too busy with their tasks, ie they wont look up the highest priced table for that blanked declaration item just as other member reported from another country, regulations (corrupt?) cannot be implemented fully. so i believe he's lucky enough his country is not the worst imo.

[TerraHertz]

This reminds me I'm lucky to live in a country (Australia) where government is only moderately corrupt and extortionate.
Well, at least in the little things.

Oh wait... unless you want to import something they don't like, such as small laser pointers or alternative medicines. Like apricot kernels...  In which case we're out of luck, "we have confiscated your property for your own good."

The funniest thing about this thread, is the OP who is in actuality complaining about his country's import duty extortion, omits to mention which country he's in. And others have to extract this information from him.

Anyway, extortion is not the only risk of buying things via the net and having them posted. Careless idiot sellers are also a problem. Later today I'll post a thread about my latest sad experience (yesterday) with this. A HP 4342A Q-Meter, slightly but very annoyingly damaged in transit due to imbecilic packing.

[GeoffS]

This reminds me I'm lucky to live in a country (Australia) where government is only moderately corrupt and extortionate.

I think in the Australian government's case it's less a matter of being corrupt than it is of being incompetent and inefficient. 

[TerraHertz]

I think in the Australian government's case it's less a matter of being corrupt than it is of being incompetent and inefficient. 

Let me rephrase that.
This reminds me I'm lucky to live in a country (Australia) where government is only moderately corrupt, extortionate, incompetent and inefficient.

[Spawn]

i mean do you have a governor lives in a house similar to normal people's house? i suspect no. some country's governor (and cronnies) live in a house similar to the "your majesty's castle"

Yeap I understood your question that’s why ask “was it ever different?”
Even big chief sitting bear had biggest wigwam couple hundred years ago, it was always like that and it won’t change any soon. 

Btw, she isn’t my majesty, she is a parasite to my tax payments, besides most of us don’t call it castle it is more like puppet show 

[Tepe]

Yes I'm in this corrupt EU country.

He is expecting same from other countries.

He just has to be slightly more discerning when he looks for ones to trade with. There are many to choose from:
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

[Tuomas]

While we are sharing personal anecdotes about customs declarations:

I ordered a RF Explorer a bit over a year ago from China. 129USD, so it was not a cheap piece of equipment. I was fully expecting it to get stuck in the customs and having to pay VAT (the limit in Finland was ~50-60USD back then). Instead, after some weeks I get a notification that I've got a postal packet ready to be picked up from my local post.

It indeed was the RF Explorer. The packet wasn't very large, but it was quite heavy for it's size, you really got the feeling that there was probably something expensive inside. Then I looked at the customs declaration:

Contains: Light Emitting Diode
Value: 5USD

A pretty bold faced lie... The Finnish customs must have been really sleeping or simply not caring to let that one through.

[Spawn]

He just has to be slightly more discerning when he looks for ones to trade with. There are many to choose from:

That is a nice one there Tepe 

Besides if the package smile shows is a DMMCheck like he mentioned before, he is lucky how fast it is handled, I got a DMMCheck shipped same date as his and it is waiting to be checked-in last 13 days together with a shipment form Franky (iloveelectronics) at Dutch customs. So if they are not corrupt, than they are lazy, there is always something wrong

Contains: Light Emitting Diode
Value: 5USD

Tuomas, I got yesterday a package with yellow flash lights in it for my own service car and it was marked with “MINI TOY HELICOPTER” and I never ask the seller to mark the shipment with anything.

[G7PSK]

I have found that if the item comes by regular post it in all likely hood will not get charged customs duty if on the other hand it comes UPS or DHL or some other international freight forwarders it will get charged duty whatever as they are entitled to charge a fee for doing the collection of the custom duty and VAT here in the UK so I never order anything that is dispatched by such company's any more, once bitten twice shy.

[Achilles]

yes....small letters and so on work fine. So if you buy components you have a high chance that it will go through, with parcels the chances are rare that it won't get controlled.
BTW: here we have a minimum Tax amount of 5Euro. I once got some photo stuff which should have been taxed with about 4Euro. Customs checked it and checked my payment and then calculated the tax (was VAT only). As it was below 5 Euro I didn't need to pay anything.
Probably there is some regulation like that in your country as well....

[mamalala]

BTW: here we have a minimum Tax amount of 5Euro.

... which i always found quite a silly thing. It should be considerably higher. I mean, let's be real. How much work do they have with that, and how much does an hour of their work cost? After all, they have to look at the parcel, check tax form, check their lists/books, maybe even open the package to verify the contents. Alltogether it surely is an hour or more. I doubt that they work for 5 Euros per hour there....

Having such a low limit, while at the same time having rather low "customs/tax free" limits anyways, is pretty much a loss instead of giving them some profit. And it's pretty clear that it is silly: they obviously have such low "customs/tax free" limits that whenever you are a bit over it, you still don't reach that 5 Euro-in-customs/taxes limit. Looks like someone didn't know how to use a calculator while comming up with that stuff.

Greetings,

Chris

[chrome]

BTW: here we have a minimum Tax amount of 5Euro.

... which i always found quite a silly thing. It should be considerably higher. I mean, let's be real. How much work do they have with that, and how much does an hour of their work cost? After all, they have to look at the parcel, check tax form, check their lists/books, maybe even open the package to verify the contents. Alltogether it surely is an hour or more. I doubt that they work for 5 Euros per hour there....

Having such a low limit, while at the same time having rather low "customs/tax free" limits anyways, is pretty much a loss instead of giving them some profit. And it's pretty clear that it is silly: they obviously have such low "customs/tax free" limits that whenever you are a bit over it, you still don't reach that 5 Euro-in-customs/taxes limit. Looks like someone didn't know how to use a calculator while comming up with that stuff.

Greetings,

Chris

I think you very much overestimate what they do.

I really doubt they do such a thorough check, maaaaybe if it seems suspicious but i don't think they take an hour per package most likely less than 5-10 minutes.

[andersm]

BTW: here we have a minimum Tax amount of 5Euro. I once got some photo stuff which should have been taxed with about 4Euro. Customs checked it and checked my payment and then calculated the tax (was VAT only). As it was below 5 Euro I didn't need to pay anything.

Finland used to have a lower limit of €10, but this year it was lowered to €5. This change was mainly due to retailers setting up mail-order stores in the Åland islands to avoid VAT on things like videogames and DVDs, which brick-and-mortar stores found unfair. (Åland was left outside the EU VAT area so cruise ships trafficking between Finland and Sweden could still sell tax-free booze and cigarrettes.)

[Kryoclasm]

I do not advocacy fraud,  I do not force anyone to sell intentionally, but if one chooses to sell internationally it is nice if the you understand that you better then do not sell to certain countries at all.

Why don't you just assume that a seller will not help you commit fraud?   

IMHO the best thing to do is either, try to change your home countries corrupt / socialist problems, or possibly find a country that you can immigrate too that has a better environment to live in. (lower tax, corruption ect..)

I really do feel your problem, but when it comes to commerce in the USA, most folks here stick to the fair and true means of the capitalistic way.   
This is the only way to garner trust with your customers. (Not to mention avoiding fraud penalties)

When you start committing minor fraud, what else are you willing to do? 

For example, when I shop on Ebay and I see someone attempting to sell an item where the listed shipping value is many times above the true shipping cost just to subvert paying a larger transaction fee to Ebay, then I will not buy from them because I do not fully trust them in what they are selling. True, I could be wrong but I'd rather not find out.


Anyway, Good luck!

[Rick]

I do not advocacy fraud,  I do not force anyone to sell intentionally, but if one chooses to sell internationally it is nice if the you understand that you better then do not sell to certain countries at all.

Why don't you just assume that a seller will not help you commit fraud?   

IMHO the best thing to do is either, try to change your home countries corrupt / socialist problems, or possibly find a country that you can immigrate too that has a better environment to live in. (lower tax, corruption ect..)

I really do feel your problem, but when it comes to commerce in the USA, most folks here stick to the fair and true means of the capitalistic way.   
This is the only way to garner trust with your customers. (Not to mention avoiding fraud penalties)

When you start committing minor fraud, what else are you willing to do? 

For example, when I shop on Ebay and I see someone attempting to sell an item where the listed shipping value is many times above the true shipping cost just to subvert paying a larger transaction fee to Ebay, then I will not buy from them because I do not fully trust them in what they are selling. True, I could be wrong but I'd rather not find out.


Anyway, Good luck!

Asking an individual to change the entire system of his country is the most stupid thing to ask not only in the former Soviet Republics but also in your own so called "democratic" country. Politicians work for corporations and only corporate interests are taken into account when political decisions are made, not individual's. You should know it better then us abroad.
Sorry, there is nothing individual here but this is pure hypocrisy. Americans are no super human beings with all the virtues of the universe. They are simply afraid of cheating because there is harsh punishment as several people pointed out.

Now the OP's demand is unjustified, I agree.
However there are US sellers who write "gift" without the buyer asking for it. I got my Fluke 87V for $295 and it arrived at my door to my big surprise because I was getting ready to go to the customs.
I have asked a couple of times in the past but I do not ask any more because even if the seller agrees to write such things on the parcel our customs people ask for financial proof (letter from the bank, credit card statement) now.

Also I guess Lithuania's system has long changed into capitalism and a wild one like in the other former Soviet Republics and Russia itself. Only the DPRK is left as a communist state.

[EEVblog]

Asking an individual to change the entire system of his country is the most stupid thing to ask not only in the former Soviet Republics but also in your own so called "democratic" country. Politicians work for corporations and only corporate interests are taken into account when political decisions are made, not individual's. You should know it better then us abroad.

So everyone should just give up and be content to live in a country that is just openly corrupt/unjust/lawless etc?
Which if course if you do that and capitulate, it just gets worse 

That is the most stupid thing I've ever heard 
No thanks, I'll fight and always try to keep the bastards honest %-B

Dave.

[Rick]

A fight against the system is a battle lost in advance wherever you live, unless the system collapses by itself or because of external factors, like we have seen in the past decades (Irak, Syria, Afghanistan, etc.) I am not sure you would like to repeat that at home. 

[David_AVD]

I also hate it when (usually Chinese) sellers grossly under declare the value of goods.  Maybe they think they are doing me a favour, but it's a major hassle (for me) if customs realise it and decide to delay delivery or issue a please explain.

[EEVblog]

A fight against the system is a battle lost in advance wherever you live, unless the system collapses by itself or because of external factors, like we have seen in the past decades (Irak, Syria, Afghanistan, etc.) I am not sure you would like to repeat that at home. 

Which is precisely why you fight to maintain and improve the system!
Systems collapse because the people don't do enough to maintain them.
If your opinion is representative of Korean people, then I predict that sadly, Korea might also be on the fast track to collapse.
But I think it's more likely you are simply a pessimist, and don't represent the will of the people.

Dave.

[Rick]

A fight against the system is a battle lost in advance wherever you live, unless the system collapses by itself or because of external factors, like we have seen in the past decades (Irak, Syria, Afghanistan, etc.) I am not sure you would like to repeat that at home. 

Which is precisely why you fight to maintain and improve the system!
Systems collapse because the people don't do enough to maintain them.
If your opinion is representative of Korean people, then I predict that sadly, Korea might also be on the fast track to collapse.
But I think it's more likely you are simply a pessimist, and don't represent the will of the people.

Dave.

The DPRK flag is just for fun;) I said where I was from before. You see the IP numbers of visitors don't you?
Cheers

[LEECH666]

MY guess would be that Dave has better things to do than backtracing IPs of users to their country of origin.

I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thread is just a troll attempt.

Just my 2 cents.

[EEVblog]

The DPRK flag is just for fun;) I said where I was from before. You see the IP numbers of visitors don't you?

My care factor for anonymous people who chop and change their country status, is zero, +/- 1 count.
You get to go to the back of the cue, congratulations.

Dave.

[Psi]

I also hate it when (usually Chinese) sellers grossly under declare the value of goods.  Maybe they think they are doing me a favour,

The alternative is that it's actually correct and that's what it cost them to buy direct from the factory

[EEVblog]

The alternative is that it's actually correct and that's what it cost them to buy direct from the factory

May be true of course, but the buck always stops with customs. If they don't believe it, tough tities!

Dave.

[Rick]

My care factor for anonymous people who chop and change their country status, is zero, +/- 1 count.
You get to go to the back of the cue, congratulations.
Dave.

No problem with that
Thanks