Author Topic: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?  (Read 5258 times)

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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« on: February 03, 2019, 11:41:46 pm »
Buddy of mine and I were discussing Stephen Hawking's "warning" to mankind dating back to a 2010 Discovery Channel comment that aliens we encounter may not be particularly friendly and meeting an alien species would in all likelihood be catastrophic to the human race.

This lead to a line of reasoning: why exactly would aliens even bother to come to Earth?

Hawkings speculated they may "raid" the earth. Well, we could not think of any particular resource which the Earth has that cannot be either synthesized elsewhere, or does not exist in sufficient quantity elsewhere in the universe. Stealing our "molton core" a-la Independence Day 2, notwithstanding :)

Even harvesting humans for food... well, most of us probably lament the amount of petrol we use to drive to the local Waitrose (assuming we are not within walking distance or have access to some form of public transportation) to buy some ribs... so we cannot see the logic in spending an insane amount of resources to travel to Earth in order to pick up some human sausages. Unless naturally there's some means of interplanetary travel we've yet to speculate about which has negligible energy consumption over vast distances.

About the only commodity we do have, that we could think of, would be habitable space... assuming alien biology was adequately close enough to ours to make living on Earth feasible (or they have appropriate technology to terraform the planet's atmosphere to make it conform to their requirements and have sufficient means to remove the existing 10 billion parasites living on the surface.)

Any thoughts?
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Offline Sparky49

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 11:58:14 pm »
One possibility is an issue of self-preservation. Why not stomp out the new 'smart' kids on the block when they are still easy to eliminate, rather than risk them equaling yourself in the future and competing for x number of reasons? Or perhaps you believe it is unwise to make noise, attracting attention to yourself, and suddenly some dude down the block starts blasting radio waves everywhere? Worth it to squash them out and silence your part of space than risk being found alongside the noisey bunch?

 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2019, 01:50:28 am »
Humans are creatures that like to destroy things.  I think if aliens were to invade we would eventually find out where they came from and then go kill them and harvest their planet.  We are probably a bigger threat to them than they are to us.    Think, the movie Avatar.  It's just a movie, but I could really see it apply to real life.  Fast forward to a time where space travel is about as normal as driving a truck.  We find a planet that has tons of oil or something and happens to have these creatures on it.  We would take the oil and kill the creatures if we have to.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2019, 02:31:09 am »
Not something we really need to worry about, physics and isolation kinda takes care of that.
Unless there is some bending of current physics we don't know about.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2019, 02:33:39 am »
Fast forward to a time where space travel is about as normal as driving a truck.

That future might still very well be limited by that pesky speed of light stuff and mass thing. I know that kind of future kinda sucks, but it's the best bet at present.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 03:09:39 am »
Why?  Organics, living space on a habitable world, whatever.  Maybe they are born missionaries.

Of more importance is our own history.  How many encounters between the colonial powers during the age of sail ultimately went well for the indigenous inhabitants?  None?  I would not be sanguine about The Road not Taken.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 03:16:22 am »
to make an outpost

its like putting a air strip on a island in the middle of the pacific.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 03:18:23 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 04:44:38 am »
Buddy of mine and I were discussing Stephen Hawking's "warning" to mankind dating back to a 2010 Discovery Channel comment that aliens we encounter may not be particularly friendly and meeting an alien species would in all likelihood be catastrophic to the human race.

You, your buddy, and Stephen Hawking, are all failing to realize you are building several hidden assumptions into your model.
The most serious and definitely false assumption, is that the concept of 'species' has any relevance to entities with technology much beyond ours.

Humans are a 'species', because we are biologically reproduced individuals still based on the DNA that evolved via survival of the fittest, over millions of years of life on Earth. As such, we have a lot of 'survival-related' cognitive biases. Ways of thinking that work acceptably well in a survival environment. But which are far from well adapted to technology-based existence.

So far, our technology isn't up to building self-maintaining and self-developing AI constructs. Note that our early efforts in this direction are all machine-based. But that's only because our bio-science is very primitive still. The most efficient, compact, versatile and self-maintaining 'machines' are biological. If we knew how to design and build living beings from scratch, the results would be better than machines in most general-needs circumstances.

At some point in the fairly near future (less than a couple of hundred years, maybe MUCH less), our genetic engineering and science-of-mind will reach the point where we can:

 * Make genetic patches to existing adult organisms, including ourselves. Actually we can already do this, but we aren't yet much good at the coding of targeted changes. We don't understand the syntax enough yet, to do it without goofs. Getting very close...

 * Address the DNA coding issues of aging. Again, we're very close. Look up Telomere fuses. There are already workable techniques of significant life extension (see mice experiments, telomerase, etc.) And that's just what's been published. I would bet the actual tech is far in advance of that, in closed circles. You DON'T expect the money elites are ever going to allow working life extension for the masses, surely? Btw, WHEN is bloody George Soros going to die already?

 * At some point there will be breakthroughs in how organic brains think. With several results: ability to build working simulations of existing adult minds, ability to interface machine extensions to living minds AND their simulations, and most importantly, to modify and extend the capabilities of existing minds.

The point is, that when you integrate the consequences of those developments, you get a situation that is radically, fundamentally different to the world we know now. You hear a lot of people using the word 'transcendence', in discussion, SciFi stories, etc. And it's a very chaotic bottleneck- lots of different possible outcomes.

But I maintain that in NONE of the possible outcomes, are there EVER 'star-faring species'.  Those technologies are simply incompatible with the existence of large numbers of technology-using genetically and culturally homogeneous individuals who see themselves as members of a species/culture.

What actually happens, is one or more individuals from a culture like ours that achieves the crucial tech-combination, self-boostrap up. Making themselves into self-engineered, immortal and space-travel-capable beings. And that self-engineering includes modifying and extending their own consciousness - how they think. Human, instinct-based minds are mal-adapted for such an existence. Each individual would self-develop on their own path.

Btw, the speed of light is a great universal quarantine barrier. You can only go starfaring, if you are a self-engineered bio-machine composite entity. Capable of existing as a networked mesh of hundreds of units, radiation-hardenned, each holding full backups of your complete dataset. And capable of adopting states of consciousness/stasis that make thousands of years of sub-lightspeed travel through interstellar distances survivable. In the sense of having enough units survive random impacts along the way, to rebuild at the next star system.

Quote
This lead to a line of reasoning: why exactly would aliens even bother to come to Earth?

For a VERY good reason.
There are no material shortages in this universe, for starfarers. Also the whole 'expand and conquer' concept is one of the primitive survival-based cognitive biases, of no relevance to such beings.
So what does have value to them? What cannot be manufactured, that has the priceless attributes of rarity, novelty and truth?

Stories. Just because you've become a being consisting of a huge swarm of machine-intelligence star-faring ships, lived for a hundred million years, and are likely to live to see the end of the Universe, doesn't mean you wouldn't like a good story. And others of similar kind you may meet along the journey, would be the same.

Stories you could make up wouldn't be as interesting to others as _real_ stories. Particularly ones that chronicled the creation of new ones of your kind. 'Baby photos'.

That's what Earth is. Few hundred million years of life arising, then humans, then the struggle of technological development, then at some point (soon) the birthing of new starfarers. Or not, if we f*ck up and destroy the biosphere with a nuclear war or something equally dumb. But even then it's still a good story for those guys.


Quote
Hawkings speculated they may "raid" the earth. Well, we could not think of any particular resource which the Earth has that cannot be either synthesized elsewhere, or does not exist in sufficient quantity elsewhere in the universe. Stealing our "molton core" a-la Independence Day 2, notwithstanding :)

Even harvesting humans for food... well, most of us probably lament the amount of petrol we use to drive to the local Waitrose (assuming we are not within walking distance or have access to some form of public transportation) to buy some ribs... so we cannot see the logic in spending an insane amount of resources to travel to Earth in order to pick up some human sausages. Unless naturally there's some means of interplanetary travel we've yet to speculate about which has negligible energy consumption over vast distances.

About the only commodity we do have, that we could think of, would be habitable space... assuming alien biology was adequately close enough to ours to make living on Earth feasible (or they have appropriate technology to terraform the planet's atmosphere to make it conform to their requirements and have sufficient means to remove the existing 10 billion parasites living on the surface.)

Any thoughts?

There's nothing here they need, other than stories. But if you meddle in a 'real story' is it still real? No, it isn't.
That's why the 'aliens' will never land and pull any 'take me to your leader' bullshit. Even the knowledge of what they actually are, if humans became aware of it due to the starfarers telling us, would spoil the story from the starfarer's viewpoint.
(Which doesn't mean they'd necessarily mind if we thought it up ourselves - hence me talking about it.)
They _do_ seem to have chats with random individuals now and then. Or at least their bio-constructed remote units do - the Grays, and other variants. The Grays are not 'the aliens', they are just modular constructs, with local intelligence and autonomy, but still part of the main entity (or entities, if there are several hanging around, watching.) I wouldn't be surprised if the Grays are an open-source  freeware, code shared among the starfarers.


By the way, there's another whole layer to this. Imagine some technology capable of taking 'snapshots' of living minds, resulting in a dataset that captures the entirety of that mind. There'd be no point doing that unless you also had the capability to run that dataset as a simulation in an virtual environment you had constructed around it. And perhaps re-inject that mind-model to a varying degree into a living being (either existing, or one you constructed from scratch.)

Now imagine that the spacefarers were collecting such recordings, as part of their 'story of Earth'.
And at some points in human history they might have been a bit too open with us about all this. Maybe an oopsie, maybe there are factions among them and they don't always agree on that 'no story contamination' thing.

So, imagine what a primitive human might take away from such a conversation. 'Captured mind model' that is really all you are? How about calling that a 'soul'.  Explanation of why they do that, and what happens to those 'souls' when they are awakened in simulated realities? Maybe some stuff abut adapting the simulated realities to bring out the prominent features of each character? 'Heaven and Hell'.  Sometimes reinjecting a 'soul' into a newborn? Reincarnation. Perhaps the recording process works best with some cooperation or at least agreement? Selling your soul to the Devil. Multiple starfarers in the Solar System, possibly for millions of years, just watching, recording and maybe sometimes meddling a bit on the side? Pantheon of Gods. Maybe some of them are not so nice? Cthulu, Old Testament, etc. Getting bored with dinosaurs? Big meteorite. Miracles, voice of God, etc? You know what they say about advanced technology and magic.  Crop circles? No reason they can't have a twisted sense of humor. Bunch of pranksters, maybe wondering if they could get humans to waste their time making even more elaborate crop circles. Answer: yes.
And so on.


Hope you found this entertaining. It's all just a joke. Or is it?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 10:59:30 pm by TerraHertz »
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Offline Peabody

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 05:26:13 am »
Pizza.  They'd come for the pizza.  And maybe more Chuck Berry recordings.
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 06:36:36 am »
I think the ability to travel faster than light automatically indicates the alien race has been around long enough to develop a level of personal and race maturity that makes them all peaceful. As well as being smart enough to let us evolve on our own without much interference. Except maybe to secretly help prevent any extinction level events that might crop up from time to time.

Also i suspect the answer to the Fermi paradox is that we're only looking at the sky in 3 dimensions and all advanced alien life expands out into the other, more fun, dimensions.
(String theory hints at there being up to 10 spatial dimensions)
The 3 dimensions we're used to are more akin to a kids sandpit/box.

To answer the question, the reasons aliens might visit earth are to learn about or study us by observation and to help in rare situations, if warranted.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 06:42:58 am by Psi »
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Offline Berni

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2019, 06:52:21 am »
Who knows maybe we are going to do that to some other planet instead.

Its just a question of developing the technology to travel the massive distances and surviving the trip. We are far from that, not even close to getting to Mars, but we want to get to Mars. So if we do get there at some point why would we stop there.

Tho the more likely scenario is that we do something dumb and kill ourselves to end the human race before that happens. Be it by nuclear war or eventually trashing the planet in some other way that we haven't even thought of yet.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 07:11:52 am »
Fast forward to a time where space travel is about as normal as driving a truck.

That future might still very well be limited by that pesky speed of light stuff and mass thing. I know that kind of future kinda sucks, but it's the best bet at present.

Yeah I agree with that, unless we somehow discover a space travel method that somehow overcomes that.  Which with our current knowledge of physics is probably not anywhere within the realm of possibility.

Pizza may very well be a motive to discover such technology.  :P
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 07:23:21 am »
why exactly would aliens even bother to come to Earth?

Why?  Party, steak, beer and women!   :-DD

Now, let's look back in our human history.  All the invasions ended up by destroying natives, in a way or another.
The more advanced the invaders were in comparison with the natives, the more erased become the natives.

Now, why exactly the invaders bothered to invade?
The reason doesn't really matter, and it doesn't need to make sense.

Human history seen anything, from resources plundering to enforcing the idea of an imaginary friend.


Offline daqq

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2019, 07:57:56 am »
Quote
I think the ability to travel faster than light automatically indicates the alien race has been around long enough to develop a level of personal and race maturity that makes them all peaceful.
I'd guess you can have several ways you can get a stable society that can achieve great* things.
One is that all of the inhabitants are wise, peaceful and cooperate together from their own free will etc, for a common goal.
Another is something Borg like, where the individual does, for most intents and purposes, no exist.

edit: Others may exist, I'd say you can have a stable dictatorship, some kind of super religious society, etc.

* - great in terms of technological level, regardless of morality
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:03:51 am by daqq »
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2019, 08:54:52 am »
There could be any number of complex chemicals, that are in the Earth's ecosystem, and cheaper to take than synthesize. Imagine an advanced civilisation taking adrenaline as drugs, and their thugs killing us for it. TBH I find this extremely unlikely, and just floated this idea that there are a number of chemicals that are unique here.

The most likely is curiosity, if it exists in their civilisation.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2019, 09:34:41 am »
I'll put out one idea.....

Aliens will come with their schoolkids on an educational "eco tour" - to show what a poorly managed planet looks like.
 
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Offline Berni

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2019, 09:37:39 am »
I think that curiosity is pretty much a requirement for forming a intelligent civilization.

The most significant scientific advancements happen due to curiosity where someone is just playing with something for the hell of it rather then actually actively trying to discover something new. These advancements help bootstrap you into the age of engineering where you can then use them to build useful things. Some of these new machines can then help you more scientific advancements and it all snowballs faster and faster until we suddenly have modern times as we know it.

So if they are curious enough to figure out space travel they will be curious enough to visit other planets just for the hell of it. Just like we don't really have a good reason to go to Mars apart from "It would be cool", well apart from claiming it ours as we tend to do whenever we discover new land.

The real question is if there is intelligent life close enough to us to make the trip and if we are in the right time window. Perhaps there is and they haven't got here yet, perhaps all life in the reasonable distance from us is still in the form similar to bacteria bacteria or similar to plants, perhaps there is no life near us and we just happened to be a really lucky coincidence, perhaps there was intelligent life way before us and thy already blew themselves up trough there own stupidity. In any case we would go out there to check and answer that question if we only had the technology to do it, if nothing else for our curiosity.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 09:40:11 am by Berni »
 
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Offline hans

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2019, 09:38:14 am »
Fast forward to a time where space travel is about as normal as driving a truck.

That future might still very well be limited by that pesky speed of light stuff and mass thing. I know that kind of future kinda sucks, but it's the best bet at present.

You'd need quite literally a "fast forward" button as a human species in order not to get bored along the way.

Even if we get technologically far enough to casually build interstellar space freighters and PAX,  can you imagine having to wait for several light-years before you reach your cousins birthday party? Oh wait, the concept of a birthday party has a couple of problems when we get to that point. :scared:

I think this may be one application for infinity life extension plus add some consciousness-alteration to "fast forward" the journey.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2019, 09:44:47 am »
As to why, well, assuming some similar (or at least relatable) motivations to current/past humanity:

Curiosity, entertainment - we too observe all sorts of animals for all sorts of reasons. For all we know the most popular reality show currently on the Tentacle HoloTV station is Brexit.
Resources - it might simply be more economical* to get some stuff rather than to synthesize it. Also, it might be more practical to mine stuff on a planet supporting your particular kind of biology rather than some asteroid in the middle of nowhere.
Lebensraum - it might simply be more economical* to remove the current occupants of a territory than to terraform (or rather make habitable) a planet. If there's a good and proper place just waiting to be inhabited, why bother with something else? In particular if you are a civilization of assholes.
Good will - on the opposite side of the spectrum, another motivation might be the equivalent of a space charity, where they try to show civilizations a better way and/or provide stuff that might ease some kind of woes.
Ideology - if your core belief says one size fits all and MUST FIT ALL BECAUSE THE GREAT SPIDER GOD SAYS SO (or your revered philosopher said so), then why not spread your faith/ideology to the far reaches of the cosmos?

* - economical or possible, for all we know there is stuff that is impossible/extremely impractical to make/do
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2019, 10:11:13 am »

Aliens are already here, who else would be poisoning, corrupting and dumbing down humans at such an amazing rate?  :scared:

Let's not forget all the instigated wars, financial thievery and wealth hoarding. 

Perhaps these alien criminals got the ass from their habitat at one time, and their ousters never bothered to keep a tab on them in case they stuffed up someone else,

so here they are, HERE on Earth, cloaked in secrecy and unopposed...Enjoy!   :popcorn:


I reckon their rides are hidden in remote deserts (not desserts), inaccessible icey areas or deep undersea somewhere,

serviced and fueled up

in case SHTF one day and the sleeping  :=\ :=\  awaken,


or BIGGER bully aliens rock up to take over the easy turf   >:D >:D

 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2019, 10:36:13 am »
Exo-102 – Citizen Diplomacy with Extraterrestrial Civilizations
Course Length: 14 weeks
https://exopoliticsinstitute.org/certifications/exo-102-citizen-diplomacy-with-extraterrestrial-civilizations/

Do they have laboratory and hands-on experience classes?   :D

I guess a good diploma project will be:  "Turn Klingons into farmers"

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2019, 11:01:38 am »
The universe is a mighty big place, bigger than that which we can see with the best telescopes, some estimate that it could be bigger by over two hundred trillion times bigger and getting bigger faster than the speed of light in some cases so why bother with us if you can cross that type of distance.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2019, 11:12:55 am »
Its just a question of developing the technology to travel the massive distances and surviving the trip. We are far from that, not even close to getting to Mars, but we want to get to Mars. So if we do get there at some point why would we stop there.

Because anything remotely interesting is impractically far away for anything but one-way multi-generational time span exploration.
And there is a very real possibility (I'd argue more likely than not) that the technology to do the many orders of magnitude better than current laws of physics allow in order to make it practical will never be possible.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2019, 11:15:03 am »
Well perhaps they can't yet traverse distances that big, but can traverse some of our closer stars.

And our planet looks out of the ordinary to make it interesting to explore. It appears to emit radio waves and the dark side appears to emit light that perfectly matches the spectral lines of sodium, but only in certain consistent places on the planet. There are a lot of things in orbit around the planet, some of it in suspiciously low orbits. And if they looked at the right just moment they might have detected the bright flash of a nuclear explosion.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2019, 11:17:58 am »
I actually like the Netflix movie Passengers in this respect, as it's close to what it would be like for us to go to another star system. 100 year journey or something so they all go to into stasis and the ship runs itself and wakes them up a few months before they get there.
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 11:19:15 am »
George Mallory was once asked "why did you want to climb Everest" and his reply was simply "because it is there". 

The spirit of exploration need not be limited to humans, I'm sure that just as we seek to explore, other species do also, including most other species right here on earth.

So, "why would aliens even bother to visit earth?", "because it is there".
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2019, 11:21:56 am »
To me the Fermi paradox is a hugely interesting question.
I was really sure several decades back that all we had to do was listen on a large enough scale and you'd find at least one advanced civilisation transmitting something, but we haven't heard squat. Intelligent life might be a lot rarer (and perhaps more fleeting) than we think.
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2019, 11:25:57 am »
we had to do was listen on a large enough scale and you'd find at least one advanced civilisation transmitting something, but we haven't heard squat. Intelligent life might be a lot rarer (and perhaps more fleeting) than we think.

Or, we have not listened on a large enough scale.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space." -- Douglas Adams

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Online NivagSwerdna

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2019, 11:26:25 am »
Unless there is some bending of current physics we don't know about.
In the past scientific theories have come and gone and although current physical theories (e.g special and general relativity) on top of Newtonian physics allow us to model the known universe to a remarkable degree it would possibly be a bit naive to consider us to have reached a level of absolute understanding.  Whilst the speed of light is seen as a current hurdle to long distance transit we might have been missing something.
However, the fact that aliens have not already visited (and you could probably assume there are almost an infinite number of other lifeforms in the very big universe), suggests that interstellar transport is a hard nut to crack.
IMHO they would visit purely out of curiosity and probably be very disappointed and then move on... probably taking a copy of the EEVBlog videos with them for entertainment on the long trip home.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2019, 11:38:19 am »
Unless there is some bending of current physics we don't know about.
In the past scientific theories have come and gone and although current physical theories (e.g special and general relativity) on top of Newtonian physics allow us to model the known universe to a remarkable degree it would possibly be a bit naive to consider us to have reached a level of absolute understanding.  Whilst the speed of light is seen as a current hurdle to long distance transit we might have been missing something.

Sure, possible, but if I had to bet money I'd bet on it not happening in our lifetimes, say the next 50 years. And that could be because either we aren't clever enough (yet), or maybe it's simply just not possible.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2019, 11:41:19 am »
we had to do was listen on a large enough scale and you'd find at least one advanced civilisation transmitting something, but we haven't heard squat. Intelligent life might be a lot rarer (and perhaps more fleeting) than we think.
Or, we have not listened on a large enough scale.

Yep, could be. But all the smart money was on us finding something decades ago and it didn't happen. And we knew how big space was back them.
Just like the alien visitation and space travel thing, maybe it's just much much much harder than what people want to believe at present.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2019, 11:50:51 am »
we had to do was listen on a large enough scale and you'd find at least one advanced civilisation transmitting something, but we haven't heard squat. Intelligent life might be a lot rarer (and perhaps more fleeting) than we think.
Or, we have not listened on a large enough scale.

Yep, could be. But all the smart money was on us finding something decades ago and it didn't happen. And we knew how big space was back them.
Just like the alien visitation and space travel thing, maybe it's just much much much harder than what people want to believe at present.
I'm older that you, and there has never been a point in my life where the smart money was on us making contact with aliens, however many of them there might be out there. We have no idea how to get to another star system, or to send a strong enough signal to it for it to be clearly identified at the receiving end. Until there is, we have no basis on which to judge the likelihood of contact. That position hasn't changed in my lifetime.
 

Online NivagSwerdna

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2019, 12:11:53 pm »
... in our lifetimes...
That's a given.  Lifetimes are short... I was thinking longer time scale.
At university I once had the pleasure of studying some geology (as part of a bigger degree)... within Natural Sciences the historical timeline is packed with examples of bizarre theories that are ridiculed now but some time ago were considered absolute truth.  Within physics and maths there might be less wiggle room but never the less it wasn't that long ago that Newtonian physics dominated.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2019, 12:22:44 pm »
I was reading somewhere recently that there is a galaxy that is moving away from ours at faster than light speed so what has been seen is all that there is to see of that galaxy now.

https://www.space.com/33306-how-does-the-universe-expand-faster-than-light.html
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2019, 01:14:24 pm »
However, the fact that aliens have not already visited

There's quite a few that would disagree with that. :)
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2019, 01:17:20 pm »
To me the Fermi paradox is a hugely interesting question.

Me too. It's a more important question than religion, because it's real, with real consequences.

I also find it interesting that virtually everyone insists on framing it as 'either there are spacefaring civilizations, or something prevents civilization from reaching space, or broadcasting, etc. And we don't see any large scale civilizations, no broadcasts, so there's no one out there.'

Key point being, they insist on only considering 'civilizations' and 'spacefaring races'. Flatly refuse to even contemplate the possibility of post-species self-engineering _individuals_, and what their aims and outlook might be. This is so 'human-way-centric' it's pathetic. Kind of meta-racism - refusal to consider any being that isn't a member of some kind of species/race.
Even when I point out the logical flaw there, everyone pointedly ignores it.
Not that I care, but it's certainly _interesting_. This really does seem to be a hardwired cognitive bias.

Quote
I was really sure several decades back that all we had to do was listen on a large enough scale and you'd find at least one advanced civilization transmitting something, but we haven't heard squat. Intelligent life might be a lot rarer (and perhaps more fleeting) than we think.

I think 'intelligent life' is quite common. It's just 'not life as we know it Jim.' In the form it takes, there are objectives and behaviors that are intrinsic to that form of existence, which are very different to how we think and behave. One result is they don't advertise themselves to us (or to any technological _species_), since to do so really messes up the stories. It's like giving away the plot on the first page, to everyone universe-wide. Just a really bad idea. A very rude thing to do.

One thing though. If there were loopholes in the law 'can't travel faster than light', then my thought model for how the 'technological singularity' works, allows for some instances of species-based technological outbreaks. We ought to see them - they'd be here, and making a nuisance of themselves. But they're not, and so C apparently is a limit. Actually likely quite a lot less than C, for reasons of the radiation and impact damage you'd have to deal with when every speck of dust is hitting you at a large fraction of C.
It's a bit like the proof time travel is not possible: because bookies can still make a profit.

For the kinds of beings I see arising from technological singularities, C as a limit is not a problem at all. So a star to star hop takes 100K or a million years? So what? It's NOT a problem. No need to 'put yourself in stasis while the automated ship does the job.' You ARE the ship. And a thousand other ships too, for redundancy. With a consciousness that can be tuned to suit the situation, including going very, very slowly if you wish.
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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2019, 01:32:00 pm »

I also find it interesting that virtually everyone insists on framing it as 'either there are spacefaring civilizations, or something prevents civilization from reaching space, or broadcasting, etc. And we don't see any large scale civilizations, no broadcasts, so there's no one out there.'

Key point being, they insist on only considering 'civilizations' and 'spacefaring races'.
[...]
I think 'intelligent life' is quite common. It's just 'not life as we know it Jim.' In the form it takes, there are objectives and behaviors that are intrinsic to that form of existence, which are very different to how we think and behave.

Would we be able to "recognize" alien life if we saw it?

Alien life may be so fundamentally different from our own concept of what "life" is that it could be under our very noses right now, and we are unable to see it.
A hollow voice says 'PLUGH'.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2019, 01:51:54 pm »
Well one of the criteria we have for considering something alive is that it can reproduce, so self replicating machines would at least tick that box.

Any functional thing that wants to still be around after 1000s of years has to be able to at least repair itself if not fully reproduce. When something alive stops reproducing it goes extinct after some time. Be it a biologic thing reaching the end of its lifespan or a machine eventually wearing out or breaking.

Just that intelligent machines have a big hurdle to overcome in that they have to be designed to be capable enough to start being self sufficient. Biological life has a more gradual slope where it starts off as mostly chemistry that changes with time and becomes more and more complex to form what we consider early life and that's when evolution really takes over, very very slowly 'designing' the species by trial and error. We still are not quite sure how it really got kick started in the beginning, but it did.

Machines have a much higher required complexity in order to self reproduce themselves so its very unlikely that it would happen on its own. Also with machines it might not be a single 'robot' that is capable of taking ore from the ground and constructing a clone of itself. Perhaps the living form in actually 100s of different machines with a common mind that work together in specialized roles to build more machines. Sort of like an ant colony but more complex.
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2019, 01:53:40 pm »
Perhaps Terrahertz's comments about providing stories for aliens to follow is truer than we think. ;D  Considering some argue that our whole universe is just a simulation by an alien race's research project who knows.  An interesting concept could be that the Big Bang and its first few micro seconds is the same as switching on a computer and booting up the background universe for a grand experiment. ;D
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2019, 01:59:51 pm »
An interesting concept could be that the Big Bang and its first few micro seconds is the same as switching on a computer and booting up the background universe for a grand experiment. ;D

What if the galactic computer is running on Windows 10, and needs to update?
That would be nasty!   :-DD
 
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Offline Berni

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2019, 02:02:12 pm »
Oh no worries we wouldn't even know its over.

Windows 10 just kills a process that refuses to shutdown gracefully in the event of an update.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2019, 02:03:58 pm »
At some point we're going to build something that works better than we do in space and lives indefinitely and is repairable. At which point, we're basically useless relics. It will savage the planet and us, then leave of its own accord to consume as many of the universe's resources as rapidly as possible for no reason other than survival.

That but the other way round.

Unless we're the first aliens.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2019, 02:07:33 pm »
Then it will be like this:
http://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index2.html

While the game^ feels stupid at first, at the end it left the gamer with an incredible feel of what exponential grow is.  That game was to me a very interesting experience.

Offline vealmike

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2019, 02:09:07 pm »
Awww, c'mon.
If you had the ability to flit across the universe, you'd do so for the pure curiosity of seeing how life had evolved elsewhere and to enjoy the beauty of another planet.

Whilst you were here, I doubt many of you would be able to resist the temptation of floating some random hick out of his bedroom window and subjecting him to a highly un-necessary 'probing' just for the shits and giggles.

You'd also buzz around over top secret military bases with your landing lights on, and possibly levitate a cow or two in front of some unsuspecting farmers.

Then it's a quick selfie in front of the Egyptian pyramids that your grand daddy built, create a new Inca lines drawing, flatten some crops in Wiltshire and off to Alpha Centuri for a spot of light lunch.

Why else would they come?
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2019, 02:13:56 pm »
You mean, like this:



;D

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2019, 02:57:16 pm »
An interesting concept could be that the Big Bang and its first few micro seconds is the same as switching on a computer and booting up the background universe for a grand experiment. ;D

What if the galactic computer is running on Windows 10, and needs to update?
That would be nasty!   :-DD

Thats ridiculous. Any pid can be detuned. And you can have a tempest attack from a sentient computer if it ran for a long enough time.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2019, 06:00:09 pm »
They would come here to mutilate farm animals, make circles in wheat fields out in the middle of nowhere, and stick probes up people's back door, obviously.  ;D
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2019, 06:24:39 pm »
They would come here to mutilate farm animals, make circles in wheat fields out in the middle of nowhere, and stick probes up people's back door, obviously.  ;D

I don't think we have been waiting for them for that. :-DD
 

Online bd139

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2019, 07:49:12 pm »
Never attribute to aliens something which can be adequately explained by rednecks.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2019, 08:31:44 pm »
If life, and in particular technologically advanced lifeforms, are rare in the universe, then the most interesting thing in our solar system would be us. So any extra terrestrials that came by would do it just to study us, same way we study ants and moss, etc.

Complex chemicals could probably be synthesised easily by the aliens themselves. Earth would likely not be habitable for an alien species (they would have had to evolve on a very similar planet). And even if earth was a perfect match I suspect any alien civilisation so advanced that they could come here and visit would have migrated to live in space stations and would have little interest in living down in the gravity well of a planet (even more so if it's machine lifeforms).

I also suspect it will be much too expensive and take too long time to travel long distances in space. So aliens probably doesn't zip around the galaxy like in star trek, sadly.
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2019, 09:07:21 pm »
What if the actually visit Earth with a tight schedule of, say, ten million years?

Sol-III log
=======
voyage #     Status
1                  lots of lava
---
24                lots of vapour
----

45                lots of plants

----


346             woah! Big, big lizards!
347             lizards!
348             still lizards.
349             booooring lizards
350             WTF! Where did all those lizards go?
351              small rats
352             slightly bigger rats
...
next trip scheduled in 6 million 675 thousand 563 revolutions.

All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2019, 09:25:34 pm »
Aliens?  No, thank you.

Why everybody is so thrilled with the idea of meeting extraterrestrial life?  What could be good in that?  Not much.  Let's list what people would want/expect from aliens?
1.  To gain ultra advanced knowledge/technology? (power)
2.  To find an "equal" to chat with? (ego)
3.  To make commerce? (greed)
4.  To solve all our problems? (protection/gods/religion)

The list could continue, but most wishes seem to be guided by very primitive human treats.  One can have (and always had) enough "fun" with human basic instincts, even without aliens.

So, why everybody is so eager to meet aliens?  What do you wish, or expect for, from aliens?  Even if aliens will just be neutral, that will still be a lot of trouble for humanity.

Even imaginary gods can, and did, bring huge troubles for humans, does anybody think that a real alien won't?
 
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Offline apis

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2019, 09:53:04 pm »
To learn from those older/wiser than ourselves.

There is a problem with that idea though: if faster than light travel turns out to be sufficiently "easy" so that any lifeform that develop advanced technology eventually discover how to do it, then the alien civilisations that comes by to visit us would be very old but not necessarily wise. A few thousand years ago it would have seemed impossible to go to the moon, or fly through the skies, yet that is something we do today. But people haven't changed during that time, it is only the level of technology and knowledge that have. We are still the same species that used to live in caves, the cavemen were just as smart and creative as we are today, they just didn't know as much physics as we do.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 09:55:44 pm by apis »
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2019, 09:54:42 pm »
why exactly would aliens even bother to come to Earth?

To suck your brains out using a plant based plastic straw
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Offline Psi

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2019, 11:19:01 pm »
Aliens?  No, thank you.

Why everybody is so thrilled with the idea of meeting extraterrestrial life?  What could be good in that?  Not much.  Let's list what people would want/expect from aliens?
1.  To gain ultra advanced knowledge/technology? (power)
2.  To find an "equal" to chat with? (ego)
3.  To make commerce? (greed)
4.  To solve all our problems? (protection/gods/religion)

The list could continue, but most wishes seem to be guided by very primitive human treats.  One can have (and always had) enough "fun" with human basic instincts, even without aliens.

So, why everybody is so eager to meet aliens?  What do you wish, or expect for, from aliens?  Even if aliens will just be neutral, that will still be a lot of trouble for humanity.

Even imaginary gods can, and did, bring huge troubles for humans, does anybody think that a real alien won't?

Agreed.

One argument for why we don't see any intelligent alien life is because alien life is all smart enough to stay well away from us.
Maybe even smart enough to actively keep us from picking up any alien signals.
For all we know there could be a huge invisible energy bubble put in place over the entire solar system that filters out any alien signals.
They could all be looking at us and shaking their head, saying "When you all learn to live in peace we will let you into the group".
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2019, 11:38:11 pm »

Aliens?  No, thank you.

Why everybody is so thrilled with the idea of meeting extraterrestrial life?  What could be good in that?  Not much.  Let's list what people would want/expect from aliens?
1.  To gain ultra advanced knowledge/technology? (power)
2.  To find an "equal" to chat with? (ego)
3.  To make commerce? (greed)
4.  To solve all our problems? (protection/gods/religion)

The list could continue, but most wishes seem to be guided by very primitive human treats.  One can have (and always had) enough "fun" with human basic instincts, even without aliens.

So, why everybody is so eager to meet aliens?  What do you wish, or expect for, from aliens?  Even if aliens will just be neutral, that will still be a lot of trouble for humanity.

Even imaginary gods can, and did, bring huge troubles for humans, does anybody think that a real alien won't?




Too right mate   :-+  There's enough hassle to deal with from the current group of aliens causing drama the last few hundred years,

we need another holidaying alien mob coming in for an extended  'tour of Earth'  like we need chronic constipation    :scared:

Old school PRAYER may yet be of value, hoping the overdue galactic Alien Police rock up, to round up and poff these criminal aliens,

and set up a force field dome around Earth, so no more alientards can sneak in to break balls again,   :phew:

or chat up and bonk the unaware local woman, turning them and the offspring into... well, whatever it is many have become  :-//
 
and highly probable they've been doing a lot of easy going blokes too 

 ;D

 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2019, 11:43:38 pm »
Can any of you who insist on thinking only in terms of alien _civilizations_ explain _why_ you do this? (ie all of you.)

Do you really think future developments in AI (science of mind and consciousness in general) and genetic engineering (both specific to humans, and in general as a branch of computing science and bio-machines) are not going to have any significant effects?

What do you think such effects might be, on the human species and our cultural structures?

Have you considered that such effects will be a universal constant, for all species that develop technology, no matter what kind of bodily form and cultural/economic structure they evolved. Fundamentally they have to have minds of some kind, and some kind of chemical genetic coding. The details don't matter. Once they become able to manipulate and extend both, the same technological singularity occurs for them. When sentient individuals of any kind attain the ability to self-bootstrap to something greater, at least some of them will attempt it, and some will succeed. Regardless of any social restrictions or opposition. Sometimes peacefully and openly, sometimes in secret to avoid conflict, sometimes in outright conflict with the rest of the culture.

Knowledge cannot be effectively repressed, while society retains any technological continuity. So the scenario repeats over and over, until one of the conflict instances results in termination of the potential for further instances of individual self-boostrapping.

Falling back to pre-industrial state doesn't count as 'termination of potential', since it won't take long to regain the technologies. Termination of potential means destruction of the species, maybe even the world environment. Given that one or both sides of such conflicts have bio-engineering, AI and nuclear tech, that's a certain outcome for some such conflict as they repeat over and over.

And there's the answer to the Fermi Paradox.

Do you _really_ think the Star Trek like scenarios are anywhere near feasible? So they have just a few kinds of tech advanced over ours (warp speed, photon torpedoes, teleporting, etc) but nothing which makes a 'society of plain old humans' untenable?

Even the Borg are an infantile concept, totally failing to integrate absolutely predictable technological developments.


Btw, speaking of inscrutable aliens, I recommend the short SF story Roadside Picnic, by the Strugatsky brothers.
  http://soviethistory.msu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/picnic.pdf
The 1979 Tarkovsky movie Stalker  was based on this story, and is very very good. Also, making it killed most of the film crew including Tarkovsky. Some of the scenes were filmed in the area of an old abandoned power station. PCBs and other contaminants were in the water, and most of those who stayed there died of cancer over the next few years. So it was Tarkovsky's last masterpiece. A tragedy.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 11:51:33 pm by TerraHertz »
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Offline MT

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2019, 11:44:21 pm »
Aliens have been with us for a long time. 9 brains one for each arm and one central, changes collour and very clever can learn new things and and learns from the environment. Most likely any alien form that can travel through a galaxy would regard homo sapiens as we watch a colony of ants for 5 sec and walk further on the forest trail. most likely we are watched every day and we newer know it so Im not particularly worried.
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2019, 11:53:43 pm »
So, why everybody is so eager to meet aliens?  What do you wish, or expect for, from aliens?

Knowledge. 
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2019, 01:27:13 am »
*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2019, 02:40:33 am »

So, why everybody is so eager to meet aliens?  What do you wish, or expect for, from aliens?


Knowledge.


We don't need their 'Knowledge', one can safely suspect/assume what the price tag will be

There's never a free lunch from any visitor, ask a Trojan descendant how that shyte works


Safer and cheaper to be a backwards world for now   :phew:

 @ ALIENS:
Wrong Way, TURN BACK!
Your GPS is rooted and or outdated maps,
Nothing to see here...   :--



 



 

Offline apis

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2019, 02:58:38 am »
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2019, 04:04:25 am »
What if the actually visit Earth with a tight schedule of, say, ten million years?

Sol-III log
=======
voyage #     Status
1                  lots of lava
---
24                lots of vapour
----

45                lots of plants

----


346             woah! Big, big lizards!
347             lizards!
348             still lizards.
349             booooring lizards
350             WTF! Where did all those lizards go?
351              small rats
352             slightly bigger rats
...
next trip scheduled in 6 million 675 thousand 563 revolutions.

There's still lot of lizards but they are in human form sitting in ivory towers on Bay street.  >:D
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2019, 04:53:58 am »
this needs to be reposted
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2019, 07:23:01 am »
Highly recommended:



 ;D


Later edit:
The full playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL32F8B5F41870D160
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 07:35:21 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline rt

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2019, 07:31:53 am »
So, why everybody is so eager to meet aliens?  What do you wish, or expect for, from aliens?

Knowledge.

I doubt we'd acquire much knowledge from the encounter ....

"As you will no doubt be aware, the plans for development of the outlying regions of the Galaxy require the building of a hyperspatial express route through your star system, and regrettably, your planet is one of those scheduled for demolition. The process will take slightly less than two of your Earth minutes. Thank you…

"There's no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it now…

"What do you mean you've never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven's sake, mankind, it's only four light years away, you know. I'm sorry, but if you can't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that's your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.
Until proven otherwise, all TED talk presenters should be considered as charismatic charlatans.
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2019, 07:56:29 am »
I couldn't see visit unless FTL was a lot easier / cheaper than we think (exotic matter and negative mass fun)

However a probe, more likely, Think trappist1 you have a solar system with something weird going on, so you point telescopes and similar at it

lets say them looking at us, Earth has tonnes of weird Electromagnetic activity, depending on when they where looking multiple weak gamma and X-ray bursts (space based nuke detonation), a rapidly changing atmosphere composition and the appearance of what looks like a dust cloud or rings that should decay, but seem to be growing, and even more confusing it seems like there is a weak light pattern radiating from the back of the planet.

If they are far enough away that they cannot see any more detail, this would be a very weird planet. weird enough to try and build something small and unmanned that could do a flyby and get some info on the thing, If we found a planet with so many possible markers for intelligent life, there reaches a point where its cheaper to build a probe to last a 100 year voyage travelling at a very high speed, than a orbiting telescope big enough to capture it in detail
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 08:00:02 am by Rerouter »
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2019, 08:05:43 am »

I doubt we'd acquire much knowledge from the encounter ....


Apart from, you know, answering perhaps the most fundamental question of our existence (aside from "what's the point") - are we alone.
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Offline sainbablo

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2019, 09:24:04 am »

Aliens are already here, who else would be poisoning, corrupting and dumbing down humans at such an amazing rate?  :scared:

Let's not forget all the instigated wars, financial thievery and wealth hoarding. 

Perhaps these alien criminals got the ass from their habitat at one time, and their ousters never bothered to keep a tab on them in case they stuffed up someone else,

so here they are, HERE on Earth, cloaked in secrecy and unopposed...Enjoy!   :popcorn:


I reckon their rides are hidden in remote deserts (not desserts), inaccessible icey areas or deep undersea somewhere,

serviced and fueled up

in case SHTF one day and the sleeping  :=\ :=\  awaken,


or BIGGER bully aliens rock up to take over the easy turf   >:D >:D



Aliens  in  miniaturized  submarines  are circulating in our  blood  streams arterial aw well as venous enjoying the  voyage peeping at  various 
human  structures free  of  cost counting their blessings.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2019, 05:49:49 pm »
I think this 'visit' from Chile in November 2010 is a good one.
www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/the-extraordinary-ufo-sig_b_1342585.html


So what was it, 3000+mph and captured on 7 or 8 cameras.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 11:40:25 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline W2NAP

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2019, 06:01:29 pm »
To me the Fermi paradox is a hugely interesting question.
I was really sure several decades back that all we had to do was listen on a large enough scale and you'd find at least one advanced civilisation transmitting something, but we haven't heard squat. Intelligent life might be a lot rarer (and perhaps more fleeting) than we think.

or, a civilization only uses the types of rf communication that we currently use for only a short short time and then you advance out of it. so in theory we could only pick up something close by using the types of rf communication we use or know of, thus means we could be missing a huge communication network of far more advanced peoples we just don't know it is there cause to us it appears as just noise.
 

Offline shteii01

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2019, 09:34:54 pm »
The military has an interesting saying.  Something like this:  "Amateurs argue about tactics.  Professionals argue about logistics."

What it translates to in this case is that Earth is much closer to the periphery of our galaxy and to travel between stars just takes too long.  Meaning, the logistics are just not there to travel to Earth from the core of the galaxy.  And even traveling from half way from the core is logistically not worth it.

And that brings up what Hawking said.  Who would expand the logistical resources to travel away from the much easier and much more populated routes/locations?  Criminals looking for safe places to hide.  People trying to escape something (not necessarily criminal).  "Crazy" adventurers with more money/resources than brains, maybe someone who wants to claim a "first" even though it is something very unimportant.

Basically we are looking for relatively very few who would travel to here.  We are basically living in equivalent of Alaskan wilderness or middle of nowhere Nebraska.  Nobody comes here, nobody even knows that there is here to come to.  Why?  The logistics.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2019, 02:36:32 am »
The military has an interesting saying.  Something like this:  "Amateurs argue about tactics.  Professionals argue about logistics."

I agree, nobody is going to cross between the stars to bring something back.  But this also has a much more sinister implication:

1. They did not come from that far away.
2. They are not planning on returning; they are coming to stay

This was brought up twice explicitly in Footfall:

The important point is that they dropped something massive, something they may need if they contemplate leaving our solar system.

Which means they intend to stay.

Rather presumes on our hospitality.  Almost as if they didn't intend us any free choice.



The point is that they threw it away when they got here.  It was used to cross interstellar space, and they dropped it.  They let it fall back toward the stars.  They're serious.  They've got no plans to go home.

So. They dropped it to save weight, of course, but. . . well.  As if your ancestors had burned the Mayflower.  Yes, they came to stay.

 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2019, 02:54:40 am »
Here a good 5 minute laugh:

__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2019, 06:19:44 am »


 ;D

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2019, 11:12:32 pm »
Just think what an awesome freebie it would be for aliens to use Earth as a landfill to dump all their waste   8)

while they practice  'progress' and back patting on their clean pristine turf, with no one the wiser     :popcorn:

Time to take down those big transmitter dishes inviting TROUBLE     :scared:

or mod them for better local wireless internet transmission bouncies  :clap:

Hands up any EEVblog volunteers willing to blow a few weekends for the task   

...and sink a few beers afterwards   :-+ :-+


(assuming the dish owners come to their senses and stop 'dreaming' of First and LAST Contact :palm: )

« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:16:57 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2019, 02:46:18 am »
Its space. If your firing literal garbage out of your solar system then there is very little point in aiming it at another planet in another solar system.

 I doubt we could even pull off such a trajectory without some level of corrections.

Unless there is some civilisation out there that is testing gravitational effects outside its solar system by seeing how they veer off target.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2019, 03:00:53 am »
I think this 'visit' from Chile in November 2010 is a good one.
www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/the-extraordinary-ufo-sig_b_1342585.html


So what was it, 3000+mph and captured on 7 or 8 cameras.
It was most likely insects flying by close to the camera lens:
https://badufos.blogspot.com/2012/03/flying-saucer-or-fly-is-this-case-ufo.html
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2019, 01:49:58 pm »
here is a explanation to the OP in form of 20 minute informational film



it would be cheap for some low level player in space politics or w/e to transform earth into a small low effort money making machine using a minimum of weapons etc.

they might have geopolitics etc. it could be another china/africa but planetary. For making doodads without needing to hire programmers or machine operators etc. Extortion.

it might also be alot cheaper then building a space station, terraforming a planet, to make some kind of outpost/truck stop. There might not be a unified space faring civilization. You could end up with pirates, rogue nations, warlords, space communists, giant mafia/shady corporations that can use earth as some kind of cash flow system.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 02:00:57 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2019, 10:12:54 pm »

...You could end up with pirates, rogue nations, warlords, space communists, giant mafia/shady corporations

that can use earth as some kind of cash flow system.


LOL, so more of the same ?   ;D

The competition might be a good thing  :-// 

the new players might offer a bigger bone to the little people than the current clowns running the show the last few centuries  :palm:

 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2019, 10:22:47 pm »
It was most likely insects flying by close to the camera lens:
https://badufos.blogspot.com/2012/03/flying-saucer-or-fly-is-this-case-ufo.html
Possible, it looked more like a blurred bird than a flying saucer on the only one other camera shot I saw on a TV prog.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2019, 11:29:54 pm »

...You could end up with pirates, rogue nations, warlords, space communists, giant mafia/shady corporations

that can use earth as some kind of cash flow system.


LOL, so more of the same ?   ;D

The competition might be a good thing  :-// 

the new players might offer a bigger bone to the little people than the current clowns running the show the last few centuries  :palm:

or it might be a incredibly half assed shake down so someone can buy a luxury 'yacht' from some shipyard, funded by space eBay.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2019, 08:23:54 am »
I'm surprised that no-one here has brought up the "Prime Directive"  8)  (Star Trek)
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2019, 01:03:26 pm »
Most interesting. It really does appear to be a solid cognitive barrier, wired in the firmware.
Still I wish I could run a poll, to see who (if anyone) does grasp the concept that no technological species can continue past the point where its individuals acquire the tech capability to modify what they are, via whatever passes for genetic engineering in their species' biology. A point that is absolutely inevitable for every tech-species, given the fundamental nature of technology, biology, species, evolution and individual. (Provided they don't wipe themselves out before reaching that point.)

Oh well, I'll go with the flow of frivolity.
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Online coppice

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2019, 06:09:44 pm »
Btw, speaking of inscrutable aliens, I recommend the short SF story Roadside Picnic, by the Strugatsky brothers.
  http://soviethistory.msu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/picnic.pdf
The 1979 Tarkovsky movie Stalker  was based on this story, and is very very good.
The movie Stalker isn't really based on Roadside Picnic. Its set in the world created by Roadside Picnic, but heads in a completely different direction. Both are excellent in the own ways. Stalker and Solaris suggest Andre Tarkovsky was fascinated by the idea of inscrutable aliens.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2019, 06:15:30 am »
The movie Stalker isn't really based on Roadside Picnic. Its set in the world created by Roadside Picnic, but heads in a completely different direction. Both are excellent in the own ways.

Sure, isn't that more or less what 'based on' means? Maybe I should have added "loosely".

Quote
Stalker and Solaris suggest Andre Tarkovsky was fascinated by the idea of inscrutable aliens.

Indeed. The Stalislaw Lem book Solaris is one of my all time favorite novels. Tarkovsky's 1972 movie of the same name (which is a pretty close retelling, as opposed to 'based on') is also a favorite movie. Quoting Wiki: "The film is often cited as one of the greatest science fiction films in the history of cinema."

 I never bothered to watch the remake by some US/Hollywood company. By most accounts it's utter crap.

Incidentally, a quick rant about historical revisionism of movies. I watched the original Solaris in cinemas 3 or 4 times. Eventually I found it on DVD and bought it. Bloody hell.... In the DVD version there is about 5 to ten seconds missing from one scene. An omission that utterly subverts the entire movie, completely sapping the core strength and meaning. Totally ruined, and anyone seeing the version with that cut will fail to get what the movie is fundamentally about.
It should be criminal to do such vandalism to a great work of art. I find it hard to believe that could have been done for any other reason than to deliberately ruin the movie's power and depth. An example of the (((Destroyers))) work, those who deliberately tear down anything greater than themselves.

It's in the scene where Kris has bundled Hari onto a rocket in the station's silo. The missing seconds are from where he closes the rocket hatch, to when the rocket is launching. The cut is crudely done; one moment he's standing at the door, next moment rolling behind a control panel to shield from the rocket flames. There's no hint that something significant happened in the meantime.

I won't spoiler the movie by saying what happened. But it's deeply shaking. It's the crucial underlining to the basis of the movie - that Hari is not only a human soul, but ALSO a product of the planet Solaris. The whole tragedy and mystery of the film pivots on that moment. With it gone, the film's theme is derelict.

I'd happily murder the bastard that did that cut. Slowly.

Wish I could find an unmutilated version.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 06:31:58 am by TerraHertz »
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Online coppice

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2019, 10:55:17 am »
The movie Stalker isn't really based on Roadside Picnic. Its set in the world created by Roadside Picnic, but heads in a completely different direction. Both are excellent in the own ways.
When I hear based on I think of things like the movies of Philip K Dick's stories, where they don't follow the book very well, but the overall story is essentially the same.
Sure, isn't that more or less what 'based on' means? Maybe I should have added "loosely".

Quote
Stalker and Solaris suggest Andre Tarkovsky was fascinated by the idea of inscrutable aliens.

Indeed. The Stalislaw Lem book Solaris is one of my all time favorite novels. Tarkovsky's 1972 movie of the same name (which is a pretty close retelling, as opposed to 'based on') is also a favorite movie. Quoting Wiki: "The film is often cited as one of the greatest science fiction films in the history of cinema."

 I never bothered to watch the remake by some US/Hollywood company. By most accounts it's utter crap.
There are versions of Interview with the Vampire with lots of thoughtful dialogue about the nature of empathy, and whether the vampires should treat the beautiful humans they prey on any differently than the humans treat their steak. There are versions where all that has been stripped out and the movie is just a blood fest. The two versions of Solaris are a bit like that.

Incidentally, a quick rant about historical revisionism of movies. I watched the original Solaris in cinemas 3 or 4 times. Eventually I found it on DVD and bought it. Bloody hell.... In the DVD version there is about 5 to ten seconds missing from one scene. An omission that utterly subverts the entire movie, completely sapping the core strength and meaning. Totally ruined, and anyone seeing the version with that cut will fail to get what the movie is fundamentally about.
It should be criminal to do such vandalism to a great work of art. I find it hard to believe that could have been done for any other reason than to deliberately ruin the movie's power and depth. An example of the (((Destroyers))) work, those who deliberately tear down anything greater than themselves.

It's in the scene where Kris has bundled Hari onto a rocket in the station's silo. The missing seconds are from where he closes the rocket hatch, to when the rocket is launching. The cut is crudely done; one moment he's standing at the door, next moment rolling behind a control panel to shield from the rocket flames. There's no hint that something significant happened in the meantime.

I won't spoiler the movie by saying what happened. But it's deeply shaking. It's the crucial underlining to the basis of the movie - that Hari is not only a human soul, but ALSO a product of the planet Solaris. The whole tragedy and mystery of the film pivots on that moment. With it gone, the film's theme is derelict.

I'd happily murder the bastard that did that cut. Slowly.

Wish I could find an unmutilated version.
I felt malice towards whoever stole the last page of Roadside Picnic for a while, until I gradually came to see that it probably stopped at the right moment.  :)

If someone was going to edit Solaris they could have shortened the ride in the Tokyo taxi. I still have no idea why Tarkovsky felt that had to go on so long.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 11:00:05 am by coppice »
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2019, 11:18:18 am »
Then, I must have been seen the "good" version of "Interview with the Vampire", because I remember that movie as having very interesting ideas, and thought provoking dialogues.  :)

About "Solaris", most probably I've seen the "bad" version, or maybe it was just me.  Never really got into it.  The movie looked like it wanted to be interesting, but ended up being just weird and sometimes uninteresting and boring.  Never read the book, thought.  I wanted to read it, but it just happened that in the meantime I read Dune by Frank Herbert, and the Dune series was so good that since then I couldn't find any other science-fiction books on par with Dune, so after a while I simply abandoned the genre, and never read Solaris.  :-\

Now, I'll be curious to give another try to the "good" version of the Solaris movie, if I could only know for sure that it's the full/uncut version.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 11:22:54 am by RoGeorge »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2019, 11:28:28 am »
Then, I must have been seen the "good" version of "Interview with the Vampire", because I remember that movie as having very interesting ideas, and thought provoking dialogues.  :)

About "Solaris", most probably I've seen the "bad" version, or maybe it was just me.  Never really got into it.  The movie looked like it wanted to be interesting, but ended up being just weird and sometimes uninteresting and boring.  Never read the book, thought.  I wanted to read it, but it just happened that in the meantime I read Dune by Frank Herbert, and the Dune series was so good that since then I couldn't find any other science-fiction books on par with Dune, so after a while I simply abandoned the genre, and never read Solaris.  :-\

Now, I'll be curious to give another try to the "good" version of the Solaris movie, if I could only know for sure that it's the full/uncut version.
The two versions of Solaris are easy to distinguish. If it was a Hollywood movie starring George Clooney, that's the bad one. If it was a Russian movie with a dub or subtitles, that's the good one.
 

Offline Terry01

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2019, 12:10:55 pm »
I wouldn't imagine they'd hang about long after the "take me to your leader" demand….

One look @ Trump & Co would have their spaceship wheel spinning for anywhere else but Earth! If Theresa May happened to be there on business or whatever there would be alien mental health issues popping off all over the shop.....
Putin would just send them over the proverbial "edge"  :scared:

I doubt even aliens could hack any of them for long..... they wouldn't come back anytime soon, that's for sure!
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Offline Mattylad

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2019, 01:14:41 pm »
The only reason aliens come to earth is because earth is the name of a health spa for them.
They come here for the colonic irrigation that is often talked about. :)
Matty
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Offline sainbablo

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Re: Why would aliens even bother to visit earth?
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2019, 07:07:09 pm »
The only reason aliens come to earth is because earth is the name of a health spa for them.
They come here for the colonic irrigation that is often talked about. :)


This colonic irrigation may turn out to be rich source of rare metals
 


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