Author Topic: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?  (Read 15710 times)

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Offline TinkerFan

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Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« on: May 06, 2016, 08:01:23 pm »
I just came across this:
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4441968/Will-Apple-drop-the-3-5mm-headphone-jack-
 :palm: Why?? It is a nice, easy interface and also relatively cheap. If we've now get a custom Apple thing, I'm sure we have to pay at least 10$ extra for an adapter. I just don't see the benefit, please clear me up. The worst thing is that all the fanboys start to buy the stuff, just because it has an apple on it, no matter what happens to it.
I personally don't use Apple (for several other reasons), but there was always a way to interface with non-Apple devices (at least somehow). What is the next step? Drop the USB port on the MachBook?
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Offline XOIIO

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 08:10:02 pm »
Yeah, it's ridiculous, and the apple fanboys are hardcore supporting it from what I can tell, the comments I've seen, and discussion I had on a Q&A site are freaking ridiculous, people talking about how "they are happy they are moving away from an outdated/non modern connector"

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2016, 08:13:53 pm »
"they are happy they are moving away from an outdated/non modern connector"

 :palm: |O :palm: |O  Seriously?  They need to step away from the Kool-Aide.
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Online Marco

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 08:46:26 pm »
I guess I'm alone in having bad luck with 3.5mm jacks ... I've always found them extremely unreliable.

PS. never bought anything from Apple, likely never will. Hardware monopolies are dangerous (they have a defacto monopoly on profit in multiple markets).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 08:49:19 pm by Marco »
 

Offline XOIIO

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 08:55:22 pm »
"they are happy they are moving away from an outdated/non modern connector"

 :palm: |O :palm: |O  Seriously?  They need to step away from the Kool-Aide.

Yeah, it's freaking ridiculous, one guy then talked about how my complaint that you would need to buy a special adapter to use any old headphones, or other 3.5mm accessories, which let's face it, being apple will cost a lot, his response:

"An adapter would certainly be available. Awww, the adapter isn’t $3! Whaaaa!! I hate quality! Everything should cost two dollars fifty. Is it because adapters and connectors are small? Your fiancee’s ring is even smaller. How cheap should that be? When friends are riding in my car or listening to my HiFi, I just can’t wait to tell them how little I paid."

There shouldn't even need to be a bloody adapter in the first place.

I had the 3.5mm jack on my first ipod get broken, and I switched to bluetooth, that also meant that I didn't risk it being yanked around by my headphone cord, but I still had the damn option.

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2016, 09:05:41 pm »
Only some stupid rumors to stir the pot and get people to talk about the brand. It's already going back to "oh no, actually it'll stay".
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2016, 09:52:55 pm »
Apple tried to kill USB with FireWire back in the day but Windows and others had better universal support do Apple had to succumb to it.

Headphone jacks are as reliable as the mechanical build quality though and do vary greatly between number of inserts. But we're talking technology that's decades old and with no reason to remove except to achieve a slimmer device.

Shows how out of touch all the tech companies are when they keep the same battery life but shave a few fractions of a millimetre from the thickness instead of adding an extra hour.
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2016, 09:53:19 pm »
I think there is some movement to make USB type C connector carry plain analog audio. I've seen some draft of the standard where pins are reserved for headphone connection.

This is actually not the worst solution. I rather like USB type C.
Alex
 

Offline TinkerFan

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2016, 10:05:20 pm »
Only some stupid rumors to stir the pot and get people to talk about the brand. It's already going back to "oh no, actually it'll stay".
That might be, because someone collected 250,000 signatures to say to apple 'we don't want this crap'. I've read it somewhere, but cannot remember where. It might have been in the article from the independent.
"A good scientist is a person with original ideas. A good engineer is a person who makes a design that works with as few original ideas as possible. There are no prima donnas in engineering." - Freeman Dyson
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2016, 10:07:20 pm »
If Apple dropped Lightning for USB-C and there was a long enough transition period. Maybe.

But what about noise? How well it work when you also need to provide roughly 100 watts very close to the analogue signals?
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2016, 10:09:34 pm »
But what about noise? How well it work when you also need to provide roughly 100 watts very close to the analogue signals?
But you don't. When you plug in the "jack", there is no power provided.

I guess it will create a problem of simultaneous listening and charging.
Alex
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2016, 10:16:33 pm »
I guess it will create a problem of simultaneous listening and charging.

That's what bothers me about this huge all-in-one push.  What if you want to do more than one thing at a time?  I already don't like that the power/data in and power/data out are the same port (can't charge the phone while connecting any accessory to it), now they want to stick audio out in there too?  Screw that.
 

Online linux-works

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2016, 10:20:17 pm »
I guess I'm alone in having bad luck with 3.5mm jacks ... I've always found them extremely unreliable.

PS. never bought anything from Apple, likely never will. Hardware monopolies are dangerous (they have a defacto monopoly on profit in multiple markets).

they suck!

they short as you insert and remove.  for some audio amps (really high end ones) they don't have protection circuits in them and - yes if you can believe it - simply inserting and removing the TRS jack (1/4" but same happens on 1/8") while music is playing causes the final mosfets to blow and/or the bias resistors.  I don't like that, but its how things are and I'm just reporting it (dont shoot the messenger).

crosstalk is also measurable with the trs connector.  I didn't believe it until I saw it first hand.

it spins and the contacts are usually not precise and so you get noise and bounces.

sometimes the tolerances are so bad, it breaks or jams.  yes, this is china we have to thank for that.

overall, I can't wait until we can get rid of this connector.  BUT - the simple fact is, all phones come with 1/8 or 1/4 trs and that's NOT going to change.  so, while the connector is a POS, we're pretty much stuck with it since its not sensible to rebuy expensive phones and if you have to adapt it, you just made things WORSE, not better.

I hate the trs jack.  but we can't just change it now.  installed base and all that.
 

Online linux-works

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2016, 10:22:00 pm »
If Apple dropped Lightning for USB-C and there was a long enough transition period. Maybe.

But what about noise? How well it work when you also need to provide roughly 100 watts very close to the analogue signals?

I asked that on hack-a-day and the reply was: you will get ONLY audio OR power thru the cable, but not both.  if that's true, then good.  if its false, then they are idiots ;)
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 10:27:11 pm »
I asked that on hack-a-day and the reply was: you will get ONLY audio OR power thru the cable, but not both.  if that's true, then good.  if its false, then they are idiots ;)
In the diagram I've seen audio pins were combined with data pins and one of the criteria for them to be audio was absence of power. Although this may be just a "dumb mode". And if device is smart, it can negotiate to have both audio and power at the same time.

But this way, your headphones won't have to carry an IC in them. Although I'm sure Apple would love to have that.
Alex
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2016, 10:39:16 pm »
I guess I'm alone in having bad luck with 3.5mm jacks ... I've always found them extremely unreliable.


they suck!

they short as you insert and remove.  for some audio amps (really high end ones) they don't have protection circuits in them and - yes if you can believe it - simply inserting and removing the TRS jack (1/4" but same happens on 1/8") while music is playing causes the final mosfets to blow and/or the bias resistors.  I don't like that, but its how things are and I'm just reporting it (dont shoot the messenger).


Eh?  How inserting a TRS plug cannot short out the socket, there's too much clearance between the contacts in the socket.  It CAN short out the PLUG - an issue with guitar amps and PA amps that use 1/4" TS jacks for the speakers.  Amp on, speaker lead gets plugged into amp, no problem, lead then gets plugged into speaker = brief short.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 10:45:25 pm »
If Apple dropped Lightning for USB-C and there was a long enough transition period. Maybe.

But what about noise? How well it work when you also need to provide roughly 100 watts very close to the analogue signals?

I asked that on hack-a-day and the reply was: you will get ONLY audio OR power thru the cable, but not both.  if that's true, then good.  if its false, then they are idiots ;)
This only really works for mains-powered devices or complications with multiple ports and then all the USB-C adapters like the one for the MacBook possibly being catastrophic.

USB is supposed to simplify connectivity. So far USB-C has been a ball-ache.
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Offline ez24

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 10:53:41 pm »
I just don't see the benefit, please clear me up.

Apple sales are down, they need the money.  The benefit is for Apple.
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 10:55:52 pm »
Quote
Audio Accessories? - USB Type-C connector can be used as an audio jack.

Windows 10 is capable of detecting a USB Type-C analog input as 3.5 mm audio jack, if the hardware supports the feature.

The USB Type-C specification connector allows a USB Type-C connector to be used similar to a 3.5" analog audio jack by using the audio accessory mode. Windows 10 supports systems that implement USB Type-C support for audio accessories by detecting the accessory as a regular 3.5" analog audio device.

To use this feature, your hardware or firmware must detect if audio accessory is connected and switch to that mode, as per the Audio Type-C specification. This is done by mapping the pins on the 3.5" analog audio connector to pins on the USB Type-C connector.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/mt427381.aspx
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2016, 12:45:59 am »
Yeah, it's ridiculous, and the apple fanboys are hardcore supporting it from what I can tell, the comments I've seen, and discussion I had on a Q&A site are freaking ridiculous, people talking about how "they are happy they are moving away from an outdated/non modern connector"

Progress for the sake of progress.  Sounds like a government initiative.
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Online linux-works

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2016, 12:52:19 am »
I guess I'm alone in having bad luck with 3.5mm jacks ... I've always found them extremely unreliable.


they suck!

they short as you insert and remove.  for some audio amps (really high end ones) they don't have protection circuits in them and - yes if you can believe it - simply inserting and removing the TRS jack (1/4" but same happens on 1/8") while music is playing causes the final mosfets to blow and/or the bias resistors.  I don't like that, but its how things are and I'm just reporting it (dont shoot the messenger).


Eh?  How inserting a TRS plug cannot short out the socket, there's too much clearance between the contacts in the socket.  It CAN short out the PLUG - an issue with guitar amps and PA amps that use 1/4" TS jacks for the speakers.  Amp on, speaker lead gets plugged into amp, no problem, lead then gets plugged into speaker = brief short.

as you insert or remove, the larger ground area  shorts gnd and the middle contact.

again, I don't like the idea of unprotected full-current output on things like this, but they are very common on high end gear and its VERY common at audio shows to have someone's output blow up as a show attendee unplugs or hot plugs a 1/4 trs jack.  in some builds, they use xlrs or other non-shorting jacks for phones and they cut off the trs jack on the existing phones.  (often, they go further and go fully balanced, so its 4 wire phones instead of a common ground).

but anyway, trs jacks are shorting and dangerous for high current.  audio alchemy used to make dacs and preamps that used 1/8" trs jacks for power!  of all things.  they should have known better and most owners saw the *spark* that would happen if they didn't think first and pulled the power from the dac side instead of the wall side.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2016, 01:03:11 am »
I guess I'm alone in having bad luck with 3.5mm jacks ... I've always found them extremely unreliable.


they suck!

they short as you insert and remove.  for some audio amps (really high end ones) they don't have protection circuits in them and - yes if you can believe it - simply inserting and removing the TRS jack (1/4" but same happens on 1/8") while music is playing causes the final mosfets to blow and/or the bias resistors.  I don't like that, but its how things are and I'm just reporting it (dont shoot the messenger).


Eh?  How inserting a TRS plug cannot short out the socket, there's too much clearance between the contacts in the socket.  It CAN short out the PLUG - an issue with guitar amps and PA amps that use 1/4" TS jacks for the speakers.  Amp on, speaker lead gets plugged into amp, no problem, lead then gets plugged into speaker = brief short.

as you insert or remove, the larger ground area  shorts gnd and the middle contact.



But the "ground area" (or sleeve, the S in TRS) cannot ever protrude far enough into the socket to reach the middle (the ring - R) contact!  As I said, the plugs can be shorted out (hence why using them for power or speaker leads is bad), but the sockets cannot!  Your headphones will be briefly shorted when plugging or unplugging, but the amp will not.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2016, 02:51:48 am »
The real reason for this hasn't been mentioned yet: DRM. The big media corps and those in bed with them want to eliminate as much of the analog hole as they can.
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2016, 02:58:02 am »
want to eliminate as much of the analog hole as they can.
That's why they put analog audio pins in the connector?
Alex
 

Offline ajb

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Re: Will Apple drop the 3.5mm Jack?
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2016, 03:27:12 am »
Using the USB connector for audio is nothing new, the Motorola RAZR did that ages ago.  Pretty sure a few other manufacturers did as well, and since most phones used 2.5mm jacks at the time it wasn't a big deal to not be able to plug your 3.5mm headphones in without an adapter.

Personally I'm not itching for my phone to be so thin you can't fit a proper 3.5mm jack, but I doubt that the vast majority of people who buy the latest and greatest flagship phones are too attached to whatever crappy earbuds they have to be much bothered by having to get new ones along with their brand new $600 phones.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 03:30:04 am by ajb »
 


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