Author Topic: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703  (Read 22545 times)

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Online joeqsmith

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2017, 11:09:13 pm »
Pretty good video on the MS culture.   



How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2017, 11:35:47 pm »
I have been using 1703 since whenever Microsoft pushed it.  I didn't know about the problems at the time and I don't have the problems now.

I have 4 machines running Win 10 (2-Surface Pros, 1-Surface Book and a new I7-7700k desktop) and they all work flawlessly.  As far as I'm concerned, Win 10 is the best version ever created.  Win 7 was good, Win 10 is better.

I'm not the least bit concerned about the October update.  It'll work out just fine!
That's the part that hurts so much - it is a good OS. Except that they ship all sorts of user data to unknown lands, tend to fiddle with the UI unannounced and prevent users from having real and proper control over their system. Windows was always a bit obtuse in that regards, but now it's intent, instead of an accident. Not to mention that horror show they call the Windows Store that gets feverishly pushed.

It's has turned into a system you're allowed to use, rather than it being your system, and we can thank Nadella for that.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 11:38:06 pm by Mr. Scram »
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2017, 11:46:00 pm »
As far as I know, you can't stop WIn10 from spying. Some of the spying is built into the kernel. It has its own built in rootkit.

I think that a lot of outbound network traffic can be blocked through the firewall if privacy is a big issue.
Lightages is right. It's woven into the fabric of Windows, so removing or disabling it is practically impossible. Blocking the network traffic in your firewall isn't really viable either. The telemetry traffic gets mixed in with traffic you do need, they can change servers at will and there are many thousands of domains used.

Your best bet is looking for an Enterprise, Education or Server edition. Only those actually allow the disabling of telemetry, simply because Microsoft cannot afford to infuriate those user groups. Normal users are too fragmented and organised to get a say, as most don't know or care, and therefore have to swallow whatever comes their way.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2017, 11:48:31 pm »
I wonder if you are working at home under an NDA and MS pulls something they perhaps should not but you didn't take the time to read their War and Peace license, I would assume you are on the hook.  Corporate ethics?  What corporate ethics?   I guess if you are from a part of the world where theft is second nature, it's no big deal.
With the wrong telemetry setting, chances are you send your confidential document to Microsoft as part of an error report. Obviously, you don't have any control over how that information is secured along the way or on their servers. That's one conversation I wouldn't want to have with my security officer, and in some industries it can impact a career in serious ways.
 

Online rdl

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2017, 01:41:44 am »
Speaking as a user of Microsoft operating systems since DOS 6 and Windows 3.1, Windows 10 is not gonna happen here any time soon. The only possible use I see for it in the future is to run a gaming only machine.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2017, 02:11:51 am »
To telemetry haters:
1. I believe MS only sends whatever they said they are sending per EULA. Otherwise they would have been drawn by lawsuits over the world.
2. No one forces you to use Win10. Win7 OEM keys and universal keys (pirate keys that are not banned yet) are everywhere.
3. Win10 update can be permanently stopped by using regedit and gpedit, or simply set your Internet connection as paid by bandwidth and disable auto update when using paid by bandwidth connections.
4. Win10 kernel has loopholes, and they are well documented. It has a public key based certificate system in kernel, and some programs with a MS certificate can have more privilege. Anti malware and DRM companies can get a certificate to allow their programs to have access other programs don't have, so do some MS programs such as update manager.
5. WinXP and Win7 also have a lot of secret backdoors, being releaved by some hackers. How, some of the best Windows hackers such as Mark Russinovich, are hired by MS and will only spit out censored info, but it doesn't mean there are no other hackers trying to reveal how Windows really works.
6. There are various ways to get access to Win10 enterprise as an individual. KMS cracking tools is open source and hence 100% backdoor free, and can activate all Windows 7/10 versions. Starter version of Window server is not much more expensive than Win10 pro either.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2017, 03:01:10 am »
2. No one forces you to use Win10. Win7 OEM keys and universal keys (pirate keys that are not banned yet) are everywhere.
3. Win10 update can be permanently stopped by using regedit and gpedit, or simply set your Internet connection as paid by bandwidth and disable auto update when using paid by bandwidth connections.
4. Win10 kernel has loopholes, and they are well documented. It has a public key based certificate system in kernel, and some programs with a MS certificate can have more privilege. Anti malware and DRM companies can get a certificate to allow their programs to have access other programs don't have, so do some MS programs such as update manager.
6. There are various ways to get access to Win10 enterprise as an individual. KMS cracking tools is open source and hence 100% backdoor free, and can activate all Windows 7/10 versions. Starter version of Window server is not much more expensive than Win10 pro either.

Do you have any suggestions which aren't illegal?
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2017, 03:10:37 am »
To telemetry haters:
1. I believe MS only sends whatever they said they are sending per EULA. Otherwise they would have been drawn by lawsuits over the world.
2. No one forces you to use Win10. Win7 OEM keys and universal keys (pirate keys that are not banned yet) are everywhere.
3. Win10 update can be permanently stopped by using regedit and gpedit, or simply set your Internet connection as paid by bandwidth and disable auto update when using paid by bandwidth connections.
4. Win10 kernel has loopholes, and they are well documented. It has a public key based certificate system in kernel, and some programs with a MS certificate can have more privilege. Anti malware and DRM companies can get a certificate to allow their programs to have access other programs don't have, so do some MS programs such as update manager.
5. WinXP and Win7 also have a lot of secret backdoors, being releaved by some hackers. How, some of the best Windows hackers such as Mark Russinovich, are hired by MS and will only spit out censored info, but it doesn't mean there are no other hackers trying to reveal how Windows really works.
6. There are various ways to get access to Win10 enterprise as an individual. KMS cracking tools is open source and hence 100% backdoor free, and can activate all Windows 7/10 versions. Starter version of Window server is not much more expensive than Win10 pro either.
Lots of problems here:

1. Microsoft tells us that they ship out lots of data. That doesn't make it right, even if it means they get away with it from it from a legal point of view. Of course, as someone pointed out, a lot of the information is buried in a War and Peace sized text, written in legalese, referring to yet other texts. A bit more recently, more insight was given into what is actually shipped back to Microsoft and the picture painted is not comforting. The fact that Microsoft has been shifty and reluctant about the details certainly hasn't helped them make their case.
2. No one is forcing you to use Windows 10. Except that support for other version of Windows seems to be intentionally frustrated, and that people have been upgraded against their will. Obviously, support for Windows 7 and 8.1 will eventually be dropped completely. Moving to another OS simply isn't always an option. Microsoft intended to drop support on a previously supported processor generation and only backtracked under threat of legal action. If you want to use Windows 7 on AMD's new chips, or anything newer than Skylake, too bad. It isn't going to happen. You need Windows 10. If that's not forcing, it's so close I have trouble telling the difference.
3. Stopping updates is like driving a burglar out of your house by setting it on fire. It's not a viable solution if you care about a secure system.

6. Open source is not the same as a guarantee against backdoors. There have been examples in the past where very clever editing of the code made it function very differently, which only someone intimately familiar with the code and system could discover and decipher.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:40:39 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2017, 03:16:32 am »
2. No one forces you to use Win10. Win7 OEM keys and universal keys (pirate keys that are not banned yet) are everywhere.
3. Win10 update can be permanently stopped by using regedit and gpedit, or simply set your Internet connection as paid by bandwidth and disable auto update when using paid by bandwidth connections.
4. Win10 kernel has loopholes, and they are well documented. It has a public key based certificate system in kernel, and some programs with a MS certificate can have more privilege. Anti malware and DRM companies can get a certificate to allow their programs to have access other programs don't have, so do some MS programs such as update manager.
6. There are various ways to get access to Win10 enterprise as an individual. KMS cracking tools is open source and hence 100% backdoor free, and can activate all Windows 7/10 versions. Starter version of Window server is not much more expensive than Win10 pro either. You still get to deal with a lot of the other nonsense, though.

Do you have any suggestions which aren't illegal?
Using Windows 8.1 seems to be the best solution for now. It's almost as good as Windows 10 under the hood, and is more secure than Windows 7 while also having a longer support period. It seems to get a lot of hate it doesn't quite deserve, so maybe Windows 10 can finally be its saving grace.

Another solution would be to get the Enterprise, Education or Server Edition. Those explicitly allow telemetry to be turned down the most. Not off, mind you. There is still communications going on for the sake of updates, which doesn't seem unreasonable and is a lot like previous versions of Windows do it. The Server Edition is freely available, but generally not cheap. The Education Edition is often cheaply available to students, educators, schools and institutions, but generally is only legally available to that group. Enterprise can only be purchased by companies who buy larger quantities at once, so called volume licensing, and is probably the toughest to obtain legally.

Finally, there's the Enterprise LTSB Edition, which has the explicit purpose of being a version with the least amount of update ugliness going on. This version is intended for systems that need to be as reliable as possible. One example would be the computers that are used to process information coming from medical devices, like MRI scanners. This seems to be a great version to have, except that it's as hard to get as the Enterprise Edition.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:44:59 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2017, 03:21:26 am »
Win10 for me? NEVER. Microsoft can go to hell. I am running Win7 until it isn't possible and am switching to Linux as I can.

I am exactly the same boat. Windows 7 is the last version of Windows I'll be using. I would sooner switch to Mac OSX before using Windows 10 (and I absolutely hate Apple).
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2017, 03:34:32 am »
Do you have any suggestions which aren't illegal?

I practice vigilantism. I pay for the best and reasonable most expensive product I can buy as a sign of courtesy, but if something is I can't buy (like enterprise license without SA), I'm not ashamed to steal it.
This not only applies to copyright license, but also patent. We (Chinese) are taught to be proud for cloning western technology that they don't sell to us due to ITAR bullshit.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:36:20 am by blueskull »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2017, 03:42:19 am »
I practice vigilantism. I pay for the best and reasonable most expensive product I can buy as a sign of courtesy, but if something is I can't buy (like enterprise license without SA), I'm not ashamed to steal it.
This not only applies to copyright license, but also patent. We (Chinese) are taught to be proud for cloning western technology that they don't sell to us due to ITAR bullshit.
I never knew FTDI chips are ITAR restricted  ;D
 
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2017, 03:47:27 am »
I practice vigilantism. I pay for the best and reasonable most expensive product I can buy as a sign of courtesy, but if something is I can't buy (like enterprise license without SA), I'm not ashamed to steal it.
This not only applies to copyright license, but also patent. We (Chinese) are taught to be proud for cloning western technology that they don't sell to us due to ITAR bullshit.
I never knew FTDI chips are ITAR restricted  ;D

Don't get me wrong, I hate Chinese clone of commercial products just like you guys, and as a high tech entrepreneur, they hurt me more than you. You guys can say this is made in USA, and I have to compete those creepy cloners on the same ground.

What I don't hate is those state funded researchers that clone western fighter jets, IC manufacturing technologies and other controlled techs designed to alienate third world countries from rising.
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2017, 04:07:57 am »

What I don't hate is those state funded researchers that clone western fighter jets, IC manufacturing technologies and other controlled techs designed to alienate third world countries from rising.

Do those state funded researchers then share that technology with all third world countries (or better yet - ALL countries), or do they try to get advantage from the fruits of their labor?  I suspect the latter, which is just what ITAR is all about.
 

Offline gnif

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2017, 04:17:39 am »
I have spent the last few days getting a workstation setup I can accept. I hate windows, 99% of my work is remoting via SSH to Linux servers, and as such I love running i3wm as my desktop environment due to the amount of sheer screen space it provides. But... I also like to play games with friends, and when most of them do not operate under Linux windows is the only option.

So, what I have been messing around with is Debian 9 running a KVM guest with a GeForce 1080Ti passed into it. I was running windows 7 in the guest but to make the video card work (nVidia intentionally detect VMs and refuse to load drivers) the system has to UEFI boot, which while I could make W7 boot, it was very unreliable, hanging during the "starting windows" screen about 90% of the time. Windows 10 however just works, so that is the path I used. The idea was to use steam so stream games back to the host, which works pretty damn well, but the latency is a killer in some games.

So... my solution is to leverage the nVidia capture API to dump uncompressed frames into a block of shared memory between the host and the guest. This is all still in the proof of concept stage, but it seems plausible, it might even be possible to map the memory straight to a DRI mmaped surface making the entire process zero copy. Here is my gripe with windows now...

It took me a few hours to write a proof of concept tool to create a shared memory region and pass it to the VM as virtual hardware.
It has taken me a few days to get a bare bones does nothing Windows driver built... it doesn't even do anything yet.

Why did it take this long... windows updates, broken system, recovery required, etc, etc, etc....

My biggest general windows gripe is the fonts.... If you turn off font smoothing to make small size fixed width fonts more legible (in my opinion), the entire system looks like ass. I never liked font smoothing, I like nice clean hard edges for text and find it much easier to read for long periods of time.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 04:24:35 am by gnif »
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2017, 04:18:39 am »
Do those state funded researchers then share that technology with all third world countries (or better yet - ALL countries), or do they try to get advantage from the fruits of their labor?  I suspect the latter, which is just what ITAR is all about.

The art is to negotiate. China can say now they have xxx technology that other third world countries don't have, and then blackmail the west to get lifted on banning of yyy technology otherwise to distribute xxx technology to other countries.

Also, since the goal of ITAR is to control weapons, not to control economy, therefore if something is controlled but a country out of ITAR list can also demonstrate the ability to manufacture it, then the sanction on that technology should be lifted to that country.

Chinese government uses this rule to get a lot of western technology -- steal sample, clone, demonstrate, then import legally. This is how China gets western countries to license and export passenger aircraft, peaceful use of nuclear and IC fab technology.

A lot of Chinese state funded researches are not target to make actual usable products. Instead, they are just to show leverage and force western countries to export these to us. We know we can't make 28nm steppers, but we can use exporting 45nm steppers to sanctioned countries as a leverage to force the west to lift sanctions on us.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2017, 03:21:14 pm »
Do you have any suggestions which aren't illegal?
I practice vigilantism. I pay for the best and reasonable most expensive product I can buy as a sign of courtesy, but if something is I can't buy (like enterprise license without SA), I'm not ashamed to steal it.

Your family had enough to send you here to the US for your education.  You talk of buying higher end PCs and equipment.  We can assume it's not a question of money.  It's a difference in upbringing. Personally, if I were hiring people and knew one was at a lessor technical level than another but had higher ethics, I can tell you which one I will extend an offer to.  I can always teach the technical side.

Interesting video about the Windows 10 tracking. 
https://youtu.be/wPFbAqICUJo

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline stj

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2017, 04:40:56 pm »
nobody mentioned yet that the last updates for W7 included backports of the W10 spyware!!
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2017, 04:57:44 pm »
nobody mentioned yet that the last updates for W7 included backports of the W10 spyware!!
It's the same for Windows 8 and 8.1. Worse still, these updates are often "re-released", which means that if you uninstalled them, they get pushed again.

The upside is that you can easily uninstall these updates, which is completely impossible in Windows 10. The difference is that it is tacked onto the older OSs, while it's woven into the new one. The matter of updates being re-released can be remedied in various ways, like having a task run regularly to check for and uninstall said updates.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2017, 04:58:44 pm »
nobody mentioned yet that the last updates for W7 included backports of the W10 spyware!!

Damn You!!!  Why ruin my whole day?  :-DD :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2017, 07:10:53 pm »
The spyware pushed as updates to Win7 were basically stopped when the free update to Win10 stopped.There were programs that helped kill them. The thing to do is not allow any Win7 updates until you can search them and see if they are more spyware from Win10.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2017, 07:24:59 pm »
I practice vigilantism. I pay for the best and reasonable most expensive product I can buy as a sign of courtesy, but if something is I can't buy (like enterprise license without SA), I'm not ashamed to steal it.

Your family had enough to send you here to the US for your education.  You talk of buying higher end PCs and equipment.  We can assume it's not a question of money.  It's a difference in upbringing. Personally, if I were hiring people and knew one was at a lessor technical level than another but had higher ethics, I can tell you which one I will extend an offer to.  I can always teach the technical side.

I'm not hesitate to buy software. I have spent more than $10k on engineering tools, and they all have a common feature -- can be bought with money.
For my previous example, you can't buy a legit Win7 anymore (OEM keys are illegal to be installed by yourself), so stealing is the only option to get it.
The same for Win10 enterprise. MS doesn't sell SA to individual (and Win2016 doesn't have full multimedia support as well as low latency kernel preemptive model), so as an individual user, to get a backdoor free Win10 for home use, the only way is to steal a copy.
Someone has previously mentioned MSDN subscription, well, MSDN keys are supposed to be used to test your software, not to be used as a permanent installation, so technically it's illegal too.

To be fair, my university (with top 30 engineering school by US Daily) also uses a lot of improperly licensed software, such as grant money paid PhDs using educational license, or students/professors using site license to do side business. Apparently nobody cares.
Also to be fair, NewEgg and Amazon also violate OEM license rule. Amazon sells OEM license to individual buyers without hardware, and NewEgg installs OEM license on your computer without using OPK.
The list goes on and on, and I've personally bought fake Windows copies (fake retail box with genuine OEM key) from a Canada based seller.

I guess MS knows their EULA is bullshit, and even they don't care if you activate your OS with an OEM, MSDN or even universal key. On the other hand, they f* their licensed users -- I remember in Win7 era, you can transfer a retail license to another PC and it will auto activate itself (and reactivate 4 times before telephone activation is required), and for Win10, it fails to activate and you have to talk to their tech support. For god's sake I paid $180 for a boxed retail license and I transferred it the first time from my Fusion VM to Parallels VM on the same Mac.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2017, 07:38:46 pm »
Microsoft doesn't care about it, until they do care. Imagine the joy when one of those universities gets audited. Of course, Microsoft isn't alone. Thanks to the BSA, a lot of parties can require you to allow an audit and they will look not only for their own licenses, but those of others too. So you don't just get slapped around for an illegal Windows key, but also for that copy of Photoshop and Inventor.

It's a collection of parties with deep pockets and very experiences legal teams, who have played the same game for years. You won't come out on top.
 

Online rdl

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2017, 08:53:40 pm »
The updates to push/force Windows 10 on users during it's "free" phase did stop, but I don't believe they were the (only) ones that added "telemetry" to Windows 7 and 8.
 

Offline Buriedcode

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Re: Windows 10 Creators Update 1703
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2017, 08:55:38 pm »
Like many in this thread, I am not thrilled with windows 10.  More specifically, it providing the option to "defer updates", but downloading and installing them anyway.  There are a few other options that are given to the user, that are similarly ignored.  As I have got older, I dread updates more and more,as they do tend to 'break' things.  In the interest of balance...

However.  The cries of 'spyware', anti-privacy, and general bashing of MS is getting as bad as the bashing of Apple.  You are all free to choose what OS you use (unless for work, in which case your IT department worries about security, not you). For every thing I dislike about windows 10 (windows 7 had a similar reaction btw, but was muted because vista was so ghastly) there are many things I do like, but don't really think about because it just works. 

And that's the point: we expect OS's to be intuitive, responsive, and just do their job - when they do that, we don't notice them.  That is why you will find few people "praising" an operating system (unless they are trying to jump on a bandwagon).  But features we don't like? we remember.

-Edge is now, IMO the fastest 'convenient' browser for windows.  Not that it is stellar, just that chrome and firefox have bloated out with heavy memory usage.
-Windows defender means we won't have to install bloated and resource-hogging third-party antivirus apps.  Again, it isn't ideal, but it does its job just fine.
-My PC is as fast, if not slightly faster as it was under windows 7.  On 6 year old hardware, I find this hard to believe, but its true.  5 seconds from power button to desktop.
-Win10 does have higher hardware requirements than win7, and whilst I disagreed with the big push for windows 10, those who find it terribly slow are probably running hardware that is past its prime.
-Windows 10 is as customisable as win7 was, one sometimes has to go through hoops to turn off certain features, but it is doable.  Often taking about 15 seconds to google, which is much quicker than  writing a forum post about how much you don't like that particular feature.  Many of the 'hacks' that were used for win7, are the same for windows 10. (customized searches, explorer, admin rights, themes, shortcuts etc..).

As for privacy and personal information.  We give away a fair bit of personal information, which is sold on in the 'big data' market.  Many seem to think this is illegal and hidden - it really isn't, just read license agreements.  I would obviously prefer if my personal information wasn't collected, but ultimately it is still my choice to use windows 10, warts 'n' all.  It would be very difficult to live ones life trying to not give away any personal data, but its possible - its the price we pay for modern convenience. 

And those who have resolutely stuck to windows 7, good for you. It is a fine OS, and almost all applications will still run on it.  You use this knowing full well the risks of an OS that is no longer supported, and with a slow decline of available software. I can't see windows 7 use dropping significantly in the next few years.

For those with windows 10 who really complain - why not switch? There are many Linux distro's to choose from.  Resistance to change is understandable, but you are not forced into using anything.
 


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