Author Topic: Windows 8  (Read 40813 times)

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Offline Lightages

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2012, 11:54:20 pm »
From all I have seen and all I have read about W8, it is really a head scratcher. WTH are they thinking? Is this another Windows ME or Windows ME2 (Vista)? I realize that the current crop of GUIs for OSes are a mess, but this is quite the over simplification of something that does need to be a bit more complex at times. Sure if all you want to do is look at assbook and surf the web this might work. If you want to do anything really useful then the whole thing just gets n the way.

It looks like MS is gambling on a big experiment.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2012, 11:55:52 pm »
I still haven't found any advantages in Win7,
so stick with my XP.

Maybe someday I will be forced (drivers?) but I think by that time all Linux version will be games-management-apps-fair polluted too.

I used to think that. But having used Windows 7 for a while, I have found it is nicer in many subtle ways. I think many of us just like to stick with what we are used to and we try to avoid change.
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Offline typeglob

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 12:13:18 am »
The new GUI SUX..............its a PC not  bloody tablet or phone.............
Apple looks to be heading in the same direction (or maybe Microsoft is just following Apple's lead). One or two more versions and Apple'll have turned my iMac into a 27" tablet.

The whole industry seems to be heading for mandatory code signing, locked down platforms, etc. This might indeed be good for Linux (and alternatives), as long as there's decent hardware you can still run it on.
 

Offline azrimola

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 12:32:47 am »
Microsoft has a good record of inducing self-harm over the years and seems to be able to survive just fine.

I hope the generic PC does not die out.

 

Offline amspire

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 12:43:51 am »
The new GUI SUX..............its a PC not  bloody tablet or phone.............
Apple looks to be heading in the same direction (or maybe Microsoft is just following Apple's lead). One or two more versions and Apple'll have turned my iMac into a 27" tablet.

The whole industry seems to be heading for mandatory code signing, locked down platforms, etc. This might indeed be good for Linux (and alternatives), as long as there's decent hardware you can still run it on.
Like it or not, computers do need to move more towards being an appliance with a simpler interface. Ultimately, even for professionals, you want a device you just turn on, run a program and have an intuitive interface for the program that means you do not have to look at the manual.

Even for guru's who love their magical ability to do wonderful things within an operating system, the truth is the computer should be a tool that allows them to start achieving more beyond the computer. The computer was never meant to be an end in itself.

You want people to be able to jump seemlessly from a PC to a tablet without needing to learn two different operating systems. Apple will have to move the iPad and OSX towards a single platform, or in a year or two, they will find themselves sliding out the back door again.

Linux will probably always have the raw nuts and bolts exposed at the terminal level, but I am sure they will follow the lead of Microsoft enthusiastically. Technologies like UEFI have just become an essential going forward for highly networked computing devices, and the Linux guys understand it this. The only question is if UEFI has been designed in a fair way, and it does look like an effort to make it workable has been made.

I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to.  If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.

The current Windows, Linux, OSX, tablet and smartphone software is impossible to secure unless you just isolate them totally.

The Windows GUI has ideas dating back to the late 80's, and many of those ideas have had their day. It is confronting when Microsoft takes a big leap, and there will be some decisions that will have to be changed going forward, but get used to it.

In 10 years, the current Windows GUI will be dead, and no-one will care except for a handful of old codgers mumbling about the "good old days".

Richard.
 

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2012, 12:45:21 am »
I suspect that once it has been around for a while and had the problems ironed out it will find its place.
I'm sure you are right!  ;)
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 03:46:25 am »
I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to.  If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.
That's cool, as long as the end user has ultimate control over the locking mechanism, if the user wants to change it. Most of that should involve implementing a whitelist policy for security, as opposed to the blacklist approach today. I certainly hate to see computing going down the path of corporate controlled DRM schemes. This is already happening with Apple, and I'm not too comfortable with that.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 05:08:35 am »
I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to.  If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.
That's cool, as long as the end user has ultimate control over the locking mechanism, if the user wants to change it. Most of that should involve implementing a whitelist policy for security, as opposed to the blacklist approach today. I certainly hate to see computing going down the path of corporate controlled DRM schemes. This is already happening with Apple, and I'm not too comfortable with that.
It is a necessity even if it is not cool. This is a complication that no-one really wants including Microsoft. It is not just a cynical marketing ploy. They really do not know any alternative. The truth is that no fully online computer system can be fully secured today. No current operating system can be made secure, as every one has one overriding fatal flaw - if you can get to a low enough level in the software, you can do anything you want, and nothing can stop you. If someone really wants to break in, a way can be found, as proven every year at the Black Hat conferences. There are people who think they are so competent they are able to prevent getting attacked, but they are deluded.

Basically things are moving towards a situation where all operating system and program files can only be altered by a process that has a SSL-like certificate that has to be approved by a trusted authority. The trouble is that Apple only wants to trust Apple and Microsoft only wants to trust Microsoft.  One single bad program from some other "authority" can infect the computer making the whole attempt at securing the computer pointless.

This is where I am hoping that some better idea will come from the open-source community. There is an incentive for this to happen, as Linux will go this way as well. I am really hoping that a good solution will turn up sooner rather then later. The solution almost certainly has to be implemented in hardware as well as software, and it will almost certainly have to restrict the ability to boot to approved operating systems only - something that I personally hate.

As much as I hate it, that is the way it has to be until someone comes up with a better solution. As much as I like the present "do what you like" hardware, it is no longer a viable option. Complaining will not change that.

If there are any software geniuses out there, get programming.

Richard.
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 05:43:42 am »
So basically you are implying a similar scheme used by EFTPOS and other electronic transaction systems where things are arbitrated by a central authority. Client side hardware is issued through authorized channels, and it is obscured through various anti-tampering schemes. I'd say that's ok for specific subsystems. But completely prevent users installing their own chosen apps, operating systems? Nah. I'd rather use a less secure system instead.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 05:51:39 am »
It is a necessity even if it is not cool...

I don't think there can really be a technical solution to this. It is not a technical problem.

A real world analogy may help. Suppose your computer to be like your house. How do you keep it secure? Well, you keep it locked up of course, and you don't allow anyone inside that you don't trust. But in reality, how possible is that? Maybe you throw a party and various people come who you barely know. Maybe you need work doing inside and decorators, carpenters, plumbers, electricians come inside. Can you watch them all the time? If you don't let people in, your home becomes of less value to you.

So your computer is the same. It's easy to keep it secure, you just lock it down and don't allow any programs or software inside it that you don't trust. Only here is where you have a problem. How can you know what to trust? If you don't trust it, how can you check? Some authority may tell it you it can be trusted, but can you always trust that authority? Worse than that, a majority of computer owners are very liberal with their trust, and allow all sorts of random software onboard. They don't think this should be their problem, they think "the computer should protect them".

What it comes down to is a problem of human behaviour. Computer owners don't have the time, the skills or the willingness to protect their own computers. If the owner of the house leaves all the doors and windows open, the burglar alarm won't be very useful.
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Offline amspire

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2012, 06:20:23 am »
It is a necessity even if it is not cool...
So your computer is the same. It's easy to keep it secure, you just lock it down and don't allow any programs or software inside it that you don't trust. Only here is where you have a problem. How can you know what to trust? If you don't trust it, how can you check? Some authority may tell it you it can be trusted, but can you always trust that authority? Worse than that, a majority of computer owners are very liberal with their trust, and allow all sorts of random software onboard. They don't think this should be their problem, they think "the computer should protect them".
That is unfortunately not true if you are on the Internet of a local network.  Your judgement and skill is irrelevant. Microsoft and Apple and Linux cannot make any current operating system secure if you make connections (like browsing a website). If serious hackers want to break into your system, they can.  In many cases, they are not using bugs in the operating system. They often are using a chain of "features" of the operating system. None on their own would be a security threat.

If you have javascript and java enabled in your browser, the hackers are halfway there. Mozilla is planning on disabling Java in their browser if the installed Java is out of date. Do you update java runtime the instant a new release is available? It is already too late then anyway, as the vulnerability exists before the update is available.

Do you have a recent Cisco wireless router with the wireless enabled? That means a hacker has direct access to your network, thanks to a "feature" that wireless routers are required to implement. In the Cisco routers, they just didn't provide any way to turn the feature off, and Cisco doesn't want to have to release updates for all their recent routers.

In the competitions set up by the security conference organisations to see who can break into operating system and browsers, then winner usually breaks into the target system in less then a minute. No one is installing programs from these computers, and no one is browsing dubious websites.

Luckily for most of us, we are just not interesting enough to be worth the effort, and that is the only reason that our computers are relatively free from viruses.

The problem for Microsoft is that things are getting to the point where they cannot allow for all the computers run by power authorities, banks, government, military, airlines, hospitals, manufacturers and eevblog forums to be knowingly vulnerable.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 06:34:02 am by amspire »
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2012, 07:20:59 am »
That is unfortunately not true if you are on the Internet of a local network.  Your judgement and skill is irrelevant. Microsoft and Apple and Linux cannot make any current operating system secure if you make connections (like browsing a website).

Well sure, that's sort of my point. Connecting your computer to a network is like leaving your windows open. But if you keep your computer isolated and don't connect to any outside networks then you have severely reduced the utility of your computer. So you are between a rock and a hard place.

A well defined network interface would only allow properly authorized and permitted actions on your computer. Unfortunately the reason computers are so vulnerable to determined hackers is partly the size of the attack surface implemented in the name of "features" (i.e. Javascript and Java and Flash and ...), and partly buggy code implementing those features.

So while I take your point that this is not all the fault of computer owners, I still don't see how hardware can tell the difference between permitted actions and not permitted actions programmed in the software. Whatever the causes of the problem, I don't see a purely technical solution.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2012, 08:45:18 am »
So basically you are implying a similar scheme used by EFTPOS and other electronic transaction systems where things are arbitrated by a central authority. Client side hardware is issued through authorized channels, and it is obscured through various anti-tampering schemes. I'd say that's ok for specific subsystems. But completely prevent users installing their own chosen apps, operating systems? Nah. I'd rather use a less secure system instead.
As the quote goes, "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither." :)

On the flip side, all the "security" measures that have come out have been defeated either through some very good programming or at worse someone with some physical tools. As long as you have physical access to the hardware, almost anything is possible.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2012, 02:41:59 pm »

... But having used Windows 7 for a while, I have found it is nicer in many subtle ways. I think many of us just like to stick with what we are used to and we try to avoid change.

avoid change, yes, you're right, if you understand it like
"avoid paying for unwanted/unneded change, that certainly will give me lots of trouble"

Aside some new things, there are a lot of things I absolutely want to keep.
Most of them are full illegal software with a hack, witch still works perfectly.
Some of them is free/payed software that certainly will not work in 7.

-Multiboot
-Labview 8.6 with a lot of internet DIY extensions
-MikroC
-Photoshop CS2
-Dreamweaver MX
-Megatune/Logviewer
-Word/Excel/Powerpoint
-Partitioning/cloning/drive programs
-IP camera/UPS/Server software
-...

As I don't make money with these programs, I also don't feel the need to pay a year renumeration for (unwanted) new versions also. With their new and backwards incompatibility problems.

.


If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline LEECH666

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2012, 03:02:07 pm »
From what I've seen I don't even dare to touch Windows 8 and its abominable GUI.
I don't even like most of the changes they made from WinXP to Vista / Win7.
With that kind of GUI Windows 8 ist a stillbirth for me.

Florian
 

Offline T4P

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2012, 04:06:31 pm »
Shortline: I was okay with the GUI with Vista/7 in fact i liked it because i have the search bar
So when i saw the Win7 phones i knew this was going to happen, it's the worst GUI i've seen in my entire life
 

Offline PeterG

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2012, 12:02:46 am »
Lost data was a big problem once apon a time, then some smart people invented things like cd/dvd burners and flash drives for making backups.
I still say Win8 is an attempt to make a desktop PC work as a tablet. This does not work and will never work.
I believe the issue with Windows mobile is the fact that people have a CHOICE with the OS there phone runs. People use Windows on there desktop because they have to. They are force fed Windows at school and then at work. This has made windows the mainstream desktop OS. This does not mean people LIKE Windows, it means people have no other realistic choice.

When it comes to phones however, people have a choice of 3 main operating systems. There is no way for microsoft to force people to use there mobile OS.

Regards

Testing one two three...
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2012, 02:48:43 am »
Lost data was a big problem once apon a time, then some smart people invented things like cd/dvd burners and flash drives for making backups.
I still say Win8 is an attempt to make a desktop PC work as a tablet. This does not work and will never work.
I think Win8 will work so well as a tablet, that in a year or so, it will take big chunks of market away from the iPad. There is a big market for a real computer in tablet form, and the problem has always been that the current Windows GUI is well proven to be no good as a tablet interface. It is partly the need for a mouse, but a bigger issue is that a comfortable tablet screen just doesn't fit modern Windows applications.

It will take a year or two for major applications to redesign their program windows for tablet and PC touch screen use, but when they do, most applications will become far more intuitive to use. Good will come from it.
Quote

I believe the issue with Windows mobile is the fact that people have a CHOICE with the OS there phone runs. People use Windows on there desktop because they have to. They are force fed Windows at school and then at work.
Not true at all. If there is an alternative to Windows for mainstream users, what is it? Linux is appalling for binary code compatibility and it has always been so. It is incredibly hard installing a 10 year old Linux program on the latest Linux release, even if you have the source code. If you are not a programmer, you have no chance. Apple is too expensive and businesses are very price sensitive. Apple has very limited hardware options as well. Apple has been pretty bad on binary code compatibility.

Once a business has developed a custom program or database for a task, they want to use it for often 10 or 15 years. If a business has a working application, they absolutely do not want to spend another $100K getting it upgraded to the latest operating systems.

In many cases, the programs businesses need to run are 3rd party, and it is impossible to get a new version compiled for the latest operating system. If I have old PEEL18CV8 projects written using the ICT PLACE tools, I need to be able to run WinPlace last updated in 2003. Windows 7 64 bit runs WinPlace fine - not the slightest problem.

ICT does not exist any more, and I do not want to have to attempt to redesign these old projects for some new different tool.

Usually Windows has just been the only viable solution - end of story.
Quote

This has made windows the mainstream desktop OS. This does not mean people LIKE Windows, it means people have no other realistic choice.
I LIKE the programs an operating system can run, but as I am not sure that liking an operating system is important at all. I think most people would be very happy with any operating system if it ran all the applications that they want to run.

If you could make a version of Linux that could run all Windows and Apple programs, users would absolutely flock to Linux.
Quote

When it comes to phones however, people have a choice of 3 main operating systems. There is no way for Microsoft to force people to use there mobile OS.

Regards
Microsoft will not need to force people to use their mobile. Microsoft have taken the huge decision to rewrite the whole of Windows 8 mobile to be more compatible with Windows 8. When users have Win8 PC and tablet, it will not be hard to sell Windows 8 mobile phones at all.

Richard.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 03:39:32 am by amspire »
 

Offline PeterG

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2012, 03:07:35 am »
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.

First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.

Secondly, windows mobile, to me, has the stigma of being a Microsoft OS and therefore makes me think of lack of security and prone to virus attacks. This  may not be the case these days, but it is still always in the back of my mind when looking at the Windows Mobile phones. It is enough to make me no feel comfortable owning a windows phone.

This is just my thoughts. Old habits die hard i guess.

Regards
Testing one two three...
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2012, 03:19:33 am »
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.

First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.
Back when Windows XP was being released, people really loved Windows 2000 with its neat very conservative palettes.

When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.

Now Windows XP is regarded as the old conservative GUI.

If you are going to a touch interface, then big buttons are great. As you get older and the eyesight is not so good, big buttons are even better.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 03:22:44 am by amspire »
 

Offline PeterG

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2012, 03:40:00 am »
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.

First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.
Back when Windows XP was being released, people really loved Windows 2000 with its neat very conservative palettes.

When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.

Now Windows XP is regarded as the old conservative GUI.

If you are going to a touch interface, then big buttons are great. As you get older and the eyesight is not so good, big buttons are even better.

I loved Win 95, 98 XP,Windows 7 never really liked win2k or Vista. Its just Windows 8 i have an issue with. I just dont see a desktop PC ever running a touchscreen well. Too many applications simply wont work in this environment.

I for one will never surrender my Mouse and Keyboard.

I do however relate to your comment regarding age and larger icons... :D

Regards
Testing one two three...
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2012, 03:46:07 am »
When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.

And I still hate it, but it doesn't matter because you can turn it off.

Vista was horrid enough to skip completely.

Win 7 sucks but you can turn most of it off and http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ gets rid of the rest and the gawd awful Win 7 start menu.

Apart from the improved task bar which works better on the side of the screen rather than the top my Win7 desktop looks pretty much like win 2k and that suits me fine.

 

Offline IanB

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2012, 03:54:52 am »
I loved Win 95, 98 XP,Windows 7 never really liked win2k or Vista. Its just Windows 8 i have an issue with. I just dont see a desktop PC ever running a touchscreen well. Too many applications simply wont work in this environment.

I for one will never surrender my Mouse and Keyboard.

From my brief testing of the Windows 8 release preview it works better with a mouse and keyboard than by touch. Touch is really there for the times when you don't have a keyboard.
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Offline T4P

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2012, 06:45:27 am »
Shortline: I was okay with the GUI with Vista/7 in fact i liked it because i have the search bar
that search bar top right of explorer.exe? with indexing capabilty? how to search hidden+certain size+past 1 month file with certain "text" inside it?

You know the start button menu
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Windows 8
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2013, 07:46:22 pm »
after about a year i got a chance to try W8. tablet feel is quite ok, (old) Apps will enter "Desktop mode" automatically upon "tapping", i can now "slide tap" many pictures etc cool. but probably "things lost" (or i dont know how to)... no more start menu, pressing Windows button will enter tablet mode that sucks for old folks developers and designers who dont need online game video chat etc. i wonder how am i going to organize my applications in "desktop only" area, even in tablet i cant make any folder to group apps. W8 tablet still new and M$ still learning at it. Androids ipad etc GUI are alot better.

My worst nightmare? looking at my kids grown up working or hobbying as a designer or developer, working on something serious in front of a 8" monitor with soft keyboard and no mouse. there are reasons why people still screaming for the "command prompt DOS like batch", even in Altium they made it transparent, shortcut R R, D S etc etc? (iirc) you may argue but its resembling dos command except working in background tied closely with the GUI with shorter key letter. a complete GUI and "buttons only" will not do it, will never be, compared to the old keyboard. how are you going to do that with tapping routes with your right hand and pressing letters with your left hand on the transparently overlayed soft keyboard on the same monitor huh? the good old days will soon die :( tomorrow will be nothing but more and more entertainment, thats what the modern teenagers need? go figure. i wonder how long the "desktop PC" will last.
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 


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