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General => General Chat => Topic started by: PeterG on June 03, 2012, 01:27:27 pm

Title: Windows 8
Post by: PeterG on June 03, 2012, 01:27:27 pm
I have been playing with Windows 8 for a few days now and think it is quite possibly the best thing to ever happen to the Linux community.

Anyone else played with Win 8?

Regards
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Sionyn on June 03, 2012, 01:58:13 pm
its the UEFI controls i not happy about quite cheeky of Microsoft
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on June 03, 2012, 02:07:33 pm
I haven't tried it, but I have been following the news a bit.  I think Windows 8 will be a huge success. This is no Vista repeat.

Some people will not like the look of the interface, but they will just use the Windows 7 GUI.

I think the interface will be extremely efficient, once people get used to it, but I am worried by the coming of "Apps"-like applications. I hate not having a full install with no activation required, and Apps are the polar opposite.

I have heard different things about UEFI, but I gather that the people who really understand it regard it as something that was necessary, and it looks like it will be managed in a fair way. I gather this is not some kind of evil Microsoft tactic at all.

What do you think of the pre-release Windows 8?

Richard.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: PeterG on June 03, 2012, 02:19:19 pm
The new GUI SUX..............its a PC not  bloody tablet or phone.............
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 03, 2012, 02:47:49 pm
If you are a developer for the platform, your situation will SUCK even more.

The next version of Visual Studio, 2011 Express, will have no compiler support for desktop applications. Basically you are forced to build Metro apps, or nothing at all. IF you want to build your C++ projects, or whatever, then you will have to buy the Pro version. The situation really blows.

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: PeterG on June 03, 2012, 02:50:27 pm
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: M. András on June 03, 2012, 03:07:26 pm
people must say no at once for this nonsense way of developing consumer electronics and software for them. even a damn sony tv menu looks like now a damned ps3 console... as for microsoft dont buy their products :) and tell f**k off if you dont change things and abandon all these idiot apps etc
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: chrome on June 03, 2012, 03:19:53 pm
Just wait for Windows 9, everybody knows every other version sucks.

Also I don't think this is great for Linux, more mac I bet (I don't like mac mind you).
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on June 03, 2012, 03:27:14 pm
I understand the criticisms, but then again, I remember how Windows 3 was bagged by the msdos lovers, how XP was bagged when it came out, how Vista was bagged and Windows 7 ended up with the same engine.

It is a brilliant move making the Windows GUI and tablet GUI's the same, as the old style Windows just cannot work on a tablet. Windows 8 phone will also have the same interface feel. Notebooks hardware will change, and I imagine Linux will make use of the touch screens before long as well.

Whatever we think about it, Windows 8 will change computers. I find it hard to find the "Bring Back MSDOS" people now. The current GUI will go the same way.

Richard.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: bullet308 on June 03, 2012, 03:58:37 pm
I also remember the introduction of Vista and ME, and 3.0 was a dog until 3.1x came out.

XP was never a dog per se. It just needed YEARS of updates and patches, ad infinitum.

IMHO, the biggest and best thing to happen to Linux as a desktop OS will be  the demise of extended support from M$ for XP in April 2014. I expect a significant uptick in Linux desktop deployment at that point and that I will be doing a fair number of them.

My unofficial nickname for Vista that I use with clients sometimes is "Windows 7 Beta (Non-Free)". Essentially, MS suckered people into paying for the beta for 7. Is that what 8 will be in relation to 9? We shall see.

As for the 8 GUI, I haven't played with it yet but I understand what they are trying to do: move to a new paradigm that is tablet oriented and away from the desktop. Well, tablets are nice and all, but the desktop isnt going away anytime soon. Is this akin to what Canonical is doing to Ubuntu with its new tablet-friendly interface? I was a long time Ubuntu fan and I am typing this on a Mint desktop box, so you can see how I voted on their new direction. My reaction to the Unity interface in Ubuntu is on a par with some of the big thumbs-downs we hear in relation to 8.  :-p
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Uncle Vernon on June 03, 2012, 04:21:27 pm
but then again, I remember how Windows 3 was bagged by the msdos lovers
It was a cumbersome buggy POS incapable of properly manageing even 640K of RAM

Quote
how XP was bagged when it came out
It was Win2K with the introduction of flawed 2nd guessing

Quote
how Vista was bagged and Windows 7 ended up with the same engine.
Vista was a flawed nasty piece of crap. Win7 the clever name for the immediately required point one release

Quote
It is a brilliant move making the Windows GUI and tablet GUI's the same
why?  Dumb the UI down to take the least advantage of machines with some decent interface device. IE: a keyboard.

Quote
as the old style Windows just cannot work on a tablet.
Neither can Microsoft's laughable attempt at a windows phone

Quote
Windows 8 phone will also have the same interface feel.
Nausea?

Quote
Notebooks hardware will change, and I imagine Linux will make use of the touch screens before long as well.
Doesn't Android already do that?

Quote
Whatever we think about it, Windows 8 will change computers.
Yeah it will obsolete a metric shitload of otherwise usable hardware as zombie clickers and other dreamers race up the next new thing cul-de-sac.

Quote
I find it hard to find the "Bring Back MSDOS" people now. The current GUI will go the same way.
It's not so much bring back DOS as bring back some of it's better aspect.  Touch screen pads don't replace notebooks although they may be fine for porn surfing research the are hardly work horses. It's moronic to dumb a UI down to match it's lowest possible entry point. A $50 Android box for TV has merit, a OS that hides everything useful behind a labyrinth of clicks is idiotic.
Sure they'll sell boxes and no doubt force Dell etc to sell the latest MS crud preloaded but none of it will stem the already happening MS demise.
The one good thing from all this is a release as ill conceived as W8, may well stem the perceived idea that desktop Linux distros should emulate Windows.

MS got it right with DOS, W95 and NT at the times of their release, its been so long since they pumped out a winner, I doubt they'll ever do it again.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 03, 2012, 04:28:55 pm
I can't wait to smudge the next generation PC displays with my greasy fingerprints, holding the damn thing awkwardly (RSI, yay) as I'm trying to do some work. As if my iPad and the iPhone is not scummy enough already! :P

Dunno... tablets are nice, touch screen phones are nice, but most of them are just toys. Tablets are OK for dicking around the net, watch videos, play some simple games, or view those kitten email attachments sent by your mum; but I don't get why MS thinks that the Metro touch interface will be of any use on a typical workstation in a typical workplace, where you have to sit at a machine for 40 hours a week. I'm struggling to see alternatives to workhorse platforms, such as desktops and laptops for real work. Tablets in their current form are simply deficient. Perhaps I lack imagination? All I know is that productive coding, design and CAD jobs need decent tactile input devices, with a comfortable physical environment.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Bored@Work on June 03, 2012, 05:04:57 pm
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................

The question is just, will they get away with it or not? My guess is, they will.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: PeterG on June 03, 2012, 05:14:55 pm
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................

The question is just, will they get away with it or not? My guess is, they will.

I am not so sure, Apple (love or hate them) are gaining ground on Microsoft slowly. Linux is the best os out there but unfortunately it is far to fragmented for mainstream use.

Regards
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: StubbornGreek on June 03, 2012, 05:17:55 pm
I've read a lot of hate towards W8 - unfortunate (I've been playing with it here and there since the developer release).

It will revolutionize certain environments, such as tablets but the biggest ease-of-use W8 will provide is in the HTPC (Home Theater PC) arena.

Windows 7 was a big step forward for Media Center and the W8 UI looks (and feels) as though it has taken things to a new level. I haven't had the permissible time to install a Ceton card in a W8 machine (drowning in some other projects right now) but I really need to get the ball rolling in that regard.

The start button (or pseudo-start button) annoys me thus far but I think I'm just having a hard time letting go of habit.

Someone mentioned that they didn't like what MS did with UEFI - just FYI: UEFI (Initially EFI) was developed by Intel to address the need for governing server resources beyond the control of BIOS (16bit processing, 1 mb addressable space, etc.). Microsoft had no direct connection (to my knowledge) to the development of UEFI.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Bored@Work on June 03, 2012, 05:27:11 pm
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................

The question is just, will they get away with it or not? My guess is, they will.

I am not so sure, Apple (love or hate them) are gaining ground on Microsoft slowly. Linux is the best os out there but unfortunately it is far to fragmented for mainstream use.

It is just a guess, based on what they got away with in the past. And they got away with a lot, including illegal behavior.

My crystal ball also tells me we should expect some PR campaign from Microsoft, where they paint people who want to stick to a normal desktop as old-fogish hillbillies in need of a communist-style reeducation. Microsoft will pay a lot of "journalists" to spread the message.

Regarding Apple, Microsoft invested in them at some time when they were down. I don't know if Microsoft still holds an interest in them. I
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: StubbornGreek on June 03, 2012, 05:41:33 pm
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................

The question is just, will they get away with it or not? My guess is, they will.

I am not so sure, Apple (love or hate them) are gaining ground on Microsoft slowly. Linux is the best os out there but unfortunately it is far to fragmented for mainstream use.


Regarding Apple, Microsoft invested in them at some time when they were down. I don't know if Microsoft still holds an interest in them. I

That was some time ago and Microsoft no longer holds those common shares. They did it to keep Apple from folding as a company after their lawsuit (against MS) went south.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: djsb on June 03, 2012, 08:58:26 pm
I wont be going anywhere near Windows 8 until the situation with UEFI secure booting is clarified. If I can't install Linux on any Laptop I wanted to buy because of this I will steer clear.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/yes-uefi-secure-boot-could-lock-out-linux-from-windows-8-pcs/14897 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/yes-uefi-secure-boot-could-lock-out-linux-from-windows-8-pcs/14897)

I think Microsoft has shot itself in the foot over this.

David.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: G7PSK on June 03, 2012, 09:23:35 pm
I tried it a short while ago it crashed my computer so often I went back to XP. I have tried linux in the past but I spent so much time trying to find drivers for some of my equipment and having to use pass words every time I did somthing I gave that up as well. I just want the damn computer to work and do what I want without it keeps asking me if I am sure or will I give it authorization, I just told it so and it asks me again! its a tool like a car it should go when I say go and stop when I tell it to nothing more nothing less.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: baljemmett on June 03, 2012, 09:44:59 pm
I wont be going anywhere near Windows 8 until the situation with UEFI secure booting is clarified. If I can't install Linux on any Laptop I wanted to buy because of this I will steer clear.

On PC hardware, you will have the option to turn off UEFI Secure Boot entirely, or to enrol your own signing keys ('custom mode'); it's ARM hardware where MS's distribution agreements forbid manufacturers from providing that escape hatch.  Matthew Garrett has done a lot of work on getting Linux to play nicely with UEFI Secure Boot; his recent blog post (http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html) describes the scheme Red Hat are adopting to ensure the more streamlined experience.

Of course, all of this (the requirement to use Secure Boot out of the box, and to require (x86) or forbid (ARM) the custom mode option) only applies to hardware that carries the 'Windows 8 approved' stickers, as it's through that certification programme that Microsoft are enforcing their requirements.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: IanB on June 03, 2012, 09:46:27 pm
I've been playing with Windows 8 a bit, and I can see the good parts. I think it is a bit too radical to find immediate mainstream acceptance, but I suspect that once it has been around for a while and had the problems ironed out it will find its place.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Rufus on June 03, 2012, 10:50:13 pm
Some people will not like the look of the interface, but they will just use the Windows 7 GUI.

The 'start menu' is Metro you can't just use it like Win 7. Even if you install a start menu replacement the incestuous mess microsoft always produce means Metro will still be there wasting disk space and probably memory. It will also leak through like the square blob that appears when you insert a CD which tells you to 'tap' it, how does one tap with a mouse?

Metro on a desktop PC is complete shit, how could something designed for a smart phone or 'fondle slab' be anything else.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: IanB on June 03, 2012, 10:55:00 pm
If you use Windows 8 with a mouse it works more or less the same as Windows 7. Sometimes it takes an extra click or two, and sometimes you have to move the mouse pointer over greater distances, but the mouse works well. In fact, contrary to the "touch first" concept proclaimed by MS, Windows 8 in fact works better with mouse and keyboard than it does with touch.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: StubbornGreek on June 03, 2012, 11:29:43 pm
I wont be going anywhere near Windows 8 until the situation with UEFI secure booting is clarified. If I can't install Linux on any Laptop I wanted to buy because of this I will steer clear.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/yes-uefi-secure-boot-could-lock-out-linux-from-windows-8-pcs/14897 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/yes-uefi-secure-boot-could-lock-out-linux-from-windows-8-pcs/14897)

I think Microsoft has shot itself in the foot over this.

David.

Meh, we'll see. I'm pretty confident that it'll work itself out - remember Windows 7 wasn't to EVER permit unsigned drivers but in the end... Besides, I still haven't seen one shred of proof that this will be the case (100% lockout). If you read anything (from a credible source), you'll notice the usual scare-tactic phrases that attract readers, like: 'may', 'could', 'might', 'may very well', etc. (EDIT) but no one states that this is definite.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Galenbo on June 03, 2012, 11:45:21 pm
I still haven't found any advantages in Win7,
so stick with my XP.

Maybe someday I will be forced (drivers?) but I think by that time all Linux version will be games-management-apps-fair polluted too.

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Lightages on June 03, 2012, 11:54:20 pm
From all I have seen and all I have read about W8, it is really a head scratcher. WTH are they thinking? Is this another Windows ME or Windows ME2 (Vista)? I realize that the current crop of GUIs for OSes are a mess, but this is quite the over simplification of something that does need to be a bit more complex at times. Sure if all you want to do is look at assbook and surf the web this might work. If you want to do anything really useful then the whole thing just gets n the way.

It looks like MS is gambling on a big experiment.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: IanB on June 03, 2012, 11:55:52 pm
I still haven't found any advantages in Win7,
so stick with my XP.

Maybe someday I will be forced (drivers?) but I think by that time all Linux version will be games-management-apps-fair polluted too.

I used to think that. But having used Windows 7 for a while, I have found it is nicer in many subtle ways. I think many of us just like to stick with what we are used to and we try to avoid change.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: typeglob on June 04, 2012, 12:13:18 am
The new GUI SUX..............its a PC not  bloody tablet or phone.............
Apple looks to be heading in the same direction (or maybe Microsoft is just following Apple's lead). One or two more versions and Apple'll have turned my iMac into a 27" tablet.

The whole industry seems to be heading for mandatory code signing, locked down platforms, etc. This might indeed be good for Linux (and alternatives), as long as there's decent hardware you can still run it on.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: azrimola on June 04, 2012, 12:32:47 am
Microsoft has a good record of inducing self-harm over the years and seems to be able to survive just fine.

I hope the generic PC does not die out.

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on June 04, 2012, 12:43:51 am
The new GUI SUX..............its a PC not  bloody tablet or phone.............
Apple looks to be heading in the same direction (or maybe Microsoft is just following Apple's lead). One or two more versions and Apple'll have turned my iMac into a 27" tablet.

The whole industry seems to be heading for mandatory code signing, locked down platforms, etc. This might indeed be good for Linux (and alternatives), as long as there's decent hardware you can still run it on.
Like it or not, computers do need to move more towards being an appliance with a simpler interface. Ultimately, even for professionals, you want a device you just turn on, run a program and have an intuitive interface for the program that means you do not have to look at the manual.

Even for guru's who love their magical ability to do wonderful things within an operating system, the truth is the computer should be a tool that allows them to start achieving more beyond the computer. The computer was never meant to be an end in itself.

You want people to be able to jump seemlessly from a PC to a tablet without needing to learn two different operating systems. Apple will have to move the iPad and OSX towards a single platform, or in a year or two, they will find themselves sliding out the back door again.

Linux will probably always have the raw nuts and bolts exposed at the terminal level, but I am sure they will follow the lead of Microsoft enthusiastically. Technologies like UEFI have just become an essential going forward for highly networked computing devices, and the Linux guys understand it this. The only question is if UEFI has been designed in a fair way, and it does look like an effort to make it workable has been made.

I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to.  If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.

The current Windows, Linux, OSX, tablet and smartphone software is impossible to secure unless you just isolate them totally.

The Windows GUI has ideas dating back to the late 80's, and many of those ideas have had their day. It is confronting when Microsoft takes a big leap, and there will be some decisions that will have to be changed going forward, but get used to it.

In 10 years, the current Windows GUI will be dead, and no-one will care except for a handful of old codgers mumbling about the "good old days".

Richard.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Uncle Vernon on June 04, 2012, 12:45:21 am
I suspect that once it has been around for a while and had the problems ironed out it will find its place.
I'm sure you are right!  ;)
(http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new/ehow/images/a06/fl/l9/retrieve-recycle-bin-that_s-emptied-800x800.jpg)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 04, 2012, 03:46:25 am
I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to.  If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.
That's cool, as long as the end user has ultimate control over the locking mechanism, if the user wants to change it. Most of that should involve implementing a whitelist policy for security, as opposed to the blacklist approach today. I certainly hate to see computing going down the path of corporate controlled DRM schemes. This is already happening with Apple, and I'm not too comfortable with that.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on June 04, 2012, 05:08:35 am
I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to.  If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.
That's cool, as long as the end user has ultimate control over the locking mechanism, if the user wants to change it. Most of that should involve implementing a whitelist policy for security, as opposed to the blacklist approach today. I certainly hate to see computing going down the path of corporate controlled DRM schemes. This is already happening with Apple, and I'm not too comfortable with that.
It is a necessity even if it is not cool. This is a complication that no-one really wants including Microsoft. It is not just a cynical marketing ploy. They really do not know any alternative. The truth is that no fully online computer system can be fully secured today. No current operating system can be made secure, as every one has one overriding fatal flaw - if you can get to a low enough level in the software, you can do anything you want, and nothing can stop you. If someone really wants to break in, a way can be found, as proven every year at the Black Hat conferences. There are people who think they are so competent they are able to prevent getting attacked, but they are deluded.

Basically things are moving towards a situation where all operating system and program files can only be altered by a process that has a SSL-like certificate that has to be approved by a trusted authority. The trouble is that Apple only wants to trust Apple and Microsoft only wants to trust Microsoft.  One single bad program from some other "authority" can infect the computer making the whole attempt at securing the computer pointless.

This is where I am hoping that some better idea will come from the open-source community. There is an incentive for this to happen, as Linux will go this way as well. I am really hoping that a good solution will turn up sooner rather then later. The solution almost certainly has to be implemented in hardware as well as software, and it will almost certainly have to restrict the ability to boot to approved operating systems only - something that I personally hate.

As much as I hate it, that is the way it has to be until someone comes up with a better solution. As much as I like the present "do what you like" hardware, it is no longer a viable option. Complaining will not change that.

If there are any software geniuses out there, get programming.

Richard.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 04, 2012, 05:43:42 am
So basically you are implying a similar scheme used by EFTPOS and other electronic transaction systems where things are arbitrated by a central authority. Client side hardware is issued through authorized channels, and it is obscured through various anti-tampering schemes. I'd say that's ok for specific subsystems. But completely prevent users installing their own chosen apps, operating systems? Nah. I'd rather use a less secure system instead.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: IanB on June 04, 2012, 05:51:39 am
It is a necessity even if it is not cool...

I don't think there can really be a technical solution to this. It is not a technical problem.

A real world analogy may help. Suppose your computer to be like your house. How do you keep it secure? Well, you keep it locked up of course, and you don't allow anyone inside that you don't trust. But in reality, how possible is that? Maybe you throw a party and various people come who you barely know. Maybe you need work doing inside and decorators, carpenters, plumbers, electricians come inside. Can you watch them all the time? If you don't let people in, your home becomes of less value to you.

So your computer is the same. It's easy to keep it secure, you just lock it down and don't allow any programs or software inside it that you don't trust. Only here is where you have a problem. How can you know what to trust? If you don't trust it, how can you check? Some authority may tell it you it can be trusted, but can you always trust that authority? Worse than that, a majority of computer owners are very liberal with their trust, and allow all sorts of random software onboard. They don't think this should be their problem, they think "the computer should protect them".

What it comes down to is a problem of human behaviour. Computer owners don't have the time, the skills or the willingness to protect their own computers. If the owner of the house leaves all the doors and windows open, the burglar alarm won't be very useful.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on June 04, 2012, 06:20:23 am
It is a necessity even if it is not cool...
So your computer is the same. It's easy to keep it secure, you just lock it down and don't allow any programs or software inside it that you don't trust. Only here is where you have a problem. How can you know what to trust? If you don't trust it, how can you check? Some authority may tell it you it can be trusted, but can you always trust that authority? Worse than that, a majority of computer owners are very liberal with their trust, and allow all sorts of random software onboard. They don't think this should be their problem, they think "the computer should protect them".
That is unfortunately not true if you are on the Internet of a local network.  Your judgement and skill is irrelevant. Microsoft and Apple and Linux cannot make any current operating system secure if you make connections (like browsing a website). If serious hackers want to break into your system, they can.  In many cases, they are not using bugs in the operating system. They often are using a chain of "features" of the operating system. None on their own would be a security threat.

If you have javascript and java enabled in your browser, the hackers are halfway there. Mozilla is planning on disabling Java in their browser if the installed Java is out of date. Do you update java runtime the instant a new release is available? It is already too late then anyway, as the vulnerability exists before the update is available.

Do you have a recent Cisco wireless router with the wireless enabled? That means a hacker has direct access to your network, thanks to a "feature" that wireless routers are required to implement. In the Cisco routers, they just didn't provide any way to turn the feature off, and Cisco doesn't want to have to release updates for all their recent routers.

In the competitions set up by the security conference organisations to see who can break into operating system and browsers, then winner usually breaks into the target system in less then a minute. No one is installing programs from these computers, and no one is browsing dubious websites.

Luckily for most of us, we are just not interesting enough to be worth the effort, and that is the only reason that our computers are relatively free from viruses.

The problem for Microsoft is that things are getting to the point where they cannot allow for all the computers run by power authorities, banks, government, military, airlines, hospitals, manufacturers and eevblog forums to be knowingly vulnerable.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: IanB on June 04, 2012, 07:20:59 am
That is unfortunately not true if you are on the Internet of a local network.  Your judgement and skill is irrelevant. Microsoft and Apple and Linux cannot make any current operating system secure if you make connections (like browsing a website).

Well sure, that's sort of my point. Connecting your computer to a network is like leaving your windows open. But if you keep your computer isolated and don't connect to any outside networks then you have severely reduced the utility of your computer. So you are between a rock and a hard place.

A well defined network interface would only allow properly authorized and permitted actions on your computer. Unfortunately the reason computers are so vulnerable to determined hackers is partly the size of the attack surface implemented in the name of "features" (i.e. Javascript and Java and Flash and ...), and partly buggy code implementing those features.

So while I take your point that this is not all the fault of computer owners, I still don't see how hardware can tell the difference between permitted actions and not permitted actions programmed in the software. Whatever the causes of the problem, I don't see a purely technical solution.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amyk on June 04, 2012, 08:45:18 am
So basically you are implying a similar scheme used by EFTPOS and other electronic transaction systems where things are arbitrated by a central authority. Client side hardware is issued through authorized channels, and it is obscured through various anti-tampering schemes. I'd say that's ok for specific subsystems. But completely prevent users installing their own chosen apps, operating systems? Nah. I'd rather use a less secure system instead.
As the quote goes, "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither." :)

On the flip side, all the "security" measures that have come out have been defeated either through some very good programming or at worse someone with some physical tools. As long as you have physical access to the hardware, almost anything is possible.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Galenbo on June 04, 2012, 02:41:59 pm

... But having used Windows 7 for a while, I have found it is nicer in many subtle ways. I think many of us just like to stick with what we are used to and we try to avoid change.

avoid change, yes, you're right, if you understand it like
"avoid paying for unwanted/unneded change, that certainly will give me lots of trouble"

Aside some new things, there are a lot of things I absolutely want to keep.
Most of them are full illegal software with a hack, witch still works perfectly.
Some of them is free/payed software that certainly will not work in 7.

-Multiboot
-Labview 8.6 with a lot of internet DIY extensions
-MikroC
-Photoshop CS2
-Dreamweaver MX
-Megatune/Logviewer
-Word/Excel/Powerpoint
-Partitioning/cloning/drive programs
-IP camera/UPS/Server software
-...

As I don't make money with these programs, I also don't feel the need to pay a year renumeration for (unwanted) new versions also. With their new and backwards incompatibility problems.

.


Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: LEECH666 on June 04, 2012, 03:02:07 pm
From what I've seen I don't even dare to touch Windows 8 and its abominable GUI.
I don't even like most of the changes they made from WinXP to Vista / Win7.
With that kind of GUI Windows 8 ist a stillbirth for me.

Florian
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: T4P on June 04, 2012, 04:06:31 pm
Shortline: I was okay with the GUI with Vista/7 in fact i liked it because i have the search bar
So when i saw the Win7 phones i knew this was going to happen, it's the worst GUI i've seen in my entire life
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: PeterG on June 05, 2012, 12:02:46 am
Lost data was a big problem once apon a time, then some smart people invented things like cd/dvd burners and flash drives for making backups.
I still say Win8 is an attempt to make a desktop PC work as a tablet. This does not work and will never work.
I believe the issue with Windows mobile is the fact that people have a CHOICE with the OS there phone runs. People use Windows on there desktop because they have to. They are force fed Windows at school and then at work. This has made windows the mainstream desktop OS. This does not mean people LIKE Windows, it means people have no other realistic choice.

When it comes to phones however, people have a choice of 3 main operating systems. There is no way for microsoft to force people to use there mobile OS.

Regards

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on June 05, 2012, 02:48:43 am
Lost data was a big problem once apon a time, then some smart people invented things like cd/dvd burners and flash drives for making backups.
I still say Win8 is an attempt to make a desktop PC work as a tablet. This does not work and will never work.
I think Win8 will work so well as a tablet, that in a year or so, it will take big chunks of market away from the iPad. There is a big market for a real computer in tablet form, and the problem has always been that the current Windows GUI is well proven to be no good as a tablet interface. It is partly the need for a mouse, but a bigger issue is that a comfortable tablet screen just doesn't fit modern Windows applications.

It will take a year or two for major applications to redesign their program windows for tablet and PC touch screen use, but when they do, most applications will become far more intuitive to use. Good will come from it.
Quote

I believe the issue with Windows mobile is the fact that people have a CHOICE with the OS there phone runs. People use Windows on there desktop because they have to. They are force fed Windows at school and then at work.
Not true at all. If there is an alternative to Windows for mainstream users, what is it? Linux is appalling for binary code compatibility and it has always been so. It is incredibly hard installing a 10 year old Linux program on the latest Linux release, even if you have the source code. If you are not a programmer, you have no chance. Apple is too expensive and businesses are very price sensitive. Apple has very limited hardware options as well. Apple has been pretty bad on binary code compatibility.

Once a business has developed a custom program or database for a task, they want to use it for often 10 or 15 years. If a business has a working application, they absolutely do not want to spend another $100K getting it upgraded to the latest operating systems.

In many cases, the programs businesses need to run are 3rd party, and it is impossible to get a new version compiled for the latest operating system. If I have old PEEL18CV8 projects written using the ICT PLACE tools, I need to be able to run WinPlace last updated in 2003. Windows 7 64 bit runs WinPlace fine - not the slightest problem.

ICT does not exist any more, and I do not want to have to attempt to redesign these old projects for some new different tool.

Usually Windows has just been the only viable solution - end of story.
Quote

This has made windows the mainstream desktop OS. This does not mean people LIKE Windows, it means people have no other realistic choice.
I LIKE the programs an operating system can run, but as I am not sure that liking an operating system is important at all. I think most people would be very happy with any operating system if it ran all the applications that they want to run.

If you could make a version of Linux that could run all Windows and Apple programs, users would absolutely flock to Linux.
Quote

When it comes to phones however, people have a choice of 3 main operating systems. There is no way for Microsoft to force people to use there mobile OS.

Regards
Microsoft will not need to force people to use their mobile. Microsoft have taken the huge decision to rewrite the whole of Windows 8 mobile to be more compatible with Windows 8. When users have Win8 PC and tablet, it will not be hard to sell Windows 8 mobile phones at all.

Richard.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: PeterG on June 05, 2012, 03:07:35 am
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.

First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.

Secondly, windows mobile, to me, has the stigma of being a Microsoft OS and therefore makes me think of lack of security and prone to virus attacks. This  may not be the case these days, but it is still always in the back of my mind when looking at the Windows Mobile phones. It is enough to make me no feel comfortable owning a windows phone.

This is just my thoughts. Old habits die hard i guess.

Regards
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on June 05, 2012, 03:19:33 am
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.

First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.
Back when Windows XP was being released, people really loved Windows 2000 with its neat very conservative palettes.

When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.

Now Windows XP is regarded as the old conservative GUI.

If you are going to a touch interface, then big buttons are great. As you get older and the eyesight is not so good, big buttons are even better.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: PeterG on June 05, 2012, 03:40:00 am
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.

First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.
Back when Windows XP was being released, people really loved Windows 2000 with its neat very conservative palettes.

When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.

Now Windows XP is regarded as the old conservative GUI.

If you are going to a touch interface, then big buttons are great. As you get older and the eyesight is not so good, big buttons are even better.

I loved Win 95, 98 XP,Windows 7 never really liked win2k or Vista. Its just Windows 8 i have an issue with. I just dont see a desktop PC ever running a touchscreen well. Too many applications simply wont work in this environment.

I for one will never surrender my Mouse and Keyboard.

I do however relate to your comment regarding age and larger icons... :D

Regards
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Rufus on June 05, 2012, 03:46:07 am
When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.

And I still hate it, but it doesn't matter because you can turn it off.

Vista was horrid enough to skip completely.

Win 7 sucks but you can turn most of it off and http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ (http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/) gets rid of the rest and the gawd awful Win 7 start menu.

Apart from the improved task bar which works better on the side of the screen rather than the top my Win7 desktop looks pretty much like win 2k and that suits me fine.

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: IanB on June 05, 2012, 03:54:52 am
I loved Win 95, 98 XP,Windows 7 never really liked win2k or Vista. Its just Windows 8 i have an issue with. I just dont see a desktop PC ever running a touchscreen well. Too many applications simply wont work in this environment.

I for one will never surrender my Mouse and Keyboard.

From my brief testing of the Windows 8 release preview it works better with a mouse and keyboard than by touch. Touch is really there for the times when you don't have a keyboard.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: T4P on June 05, 2012, 06:45:27 am
Shortline: I was okay with the GUI with Vista/7 in fact i liked it because i have the search bar
that search bar top right of explorer.exe? with indexing capabilty? how to search hidden+certain size+past 1 month file with certain "text" inside it?

You know the start button menu
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 10, 2013, 07:46:22 pm
after about a year i got a chance to try W8. tablet feel is quite ok, (old) Apps will enter "Desktop mode" automatically upon "tapping", i can now "slide tap" many pictures etc cool. but probably "things lost" (or i dont know how to)... no more start menu, pressing Windows button will enter tablet mode that sucks for old folks developers and designers who dont need online game video chat etc. i wonder how am i going to organize my applications in "desktop only" area, even in tablet i cant make any folder to group apps. W8 tablet still new and M$ still learning at it. Androids ipad etc GUI are alot better.

My worst nightmare? looking at my kids grown up working or hobbying as a designer or developer, working on something serious in front of a 8" monitor with soft keyboard and no mouse. there are reasons why people still screaming for the "command prompt DOS like batch", even in Altium they made it transparent, shortcut R R, D S etc etc? (iirc) you may argue but its resembling dos command except working in background tied closely with the GUI with shorter key letter. a complete GUI and "buttons only" will not do it, will never be, compared to the old keyboard. how are you going to do that with tapping routes with your right hand and pressing letters with your left hand on the transparently overlayed soft keyboard on the same monitor huh? the good old days will soon die :( tomorrow will be nothing but more and more entertainment, thats what the modern teenagers need? go figure. i wonder how long the "desktop PC" will last.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 11, 2013, 12:00:17 am
Why everyone hangs onto the start button like it's their old security blanket is beyond me, I just made my own shutdown and restart buttons.

And there are a few handy apps.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Rufus on April 11, 2013, 12:47:01 am
Why everyone hangs onto the start button like it's their old security blanket is beyond me, I just made my own shutdown and restart buttons.

You think we need a start menu for shutdown and restart - just lol.

My start menu currently has 494 items arranged in 194 folders. Never mind the settings, documents and shutdown menus.

With the classic win95 style menu I can access any of them from an alphabetically sorted menu with flyout sub-menus. I can see them all without scrolling and it occupies about 1/4 of my screen.

I don't cling to the 'start button' I would welcome something that works better, since Win95 Microsoft have only offered things that work worse, culminating in Windows 8 which gives new meaning to the word worse.

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 11, 2013, 12:53:27 am
Did you even look at the picture I posted?

all you have to do is pin the link to application on the start screen, one click will open your application.

the desktop is still there, and you can set it up like any version of windows you want.

how exactly is that worse?

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: dr.diesel on April 11, 2013, 01:01:43 am
how exactly is that worse?

Windows 8 is a complete and absolute abomination....  Putting it on the desktop was a clear act of stupidity.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 11, 2013, 01:03:29 am
For me, it's simple - I refuse to learn a new interface every time Microsoft craps one out. I don't care that it works just as well, the only thing it should be doing is getting the hell out of my way and letting me use my computer. I don't poke around at the OS user interface for shits and giggles, I use it to start programs and manipulate files. The marketing and design weenies' playtime is over when I sit at my computer.

Windows 8 is a complete and absolute abomination....  Putting it on the desktop was a clear act of stupidity.

I'm starting to get the feeling that Bill Gates burned your house down.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: dr.diesel on April 11, 2013, 01:07:05 am
I'm starting to get the feeling that Bill Gates burned your house down.

Nope, Gnome 3 is in the same boat, crap = crap.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 11, 2013, 01:09:13 am
how exactly is that worse?

Windows 8 is a complete and absolute abomination....  Putting it on the desktop was a clear act of stupidity.

I'm not here to sell windoze......

I'm just a user that has used every version since windows was originated and in my opinion the "start" screen works better than the "start" menu.

And I certainly don't want to get in a flame war, so I've said my piece and will go in peace.....you all carry on.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 11, 2013, 01:10:04 am
I'm starting to get the feeling that Bill Gates burned your house down.

Nope, Gnome 3 is in the same boat, crap = crap.

Gnome 3 is literally crap. Like someone took a giant shit, mashed it into the keyboard and uploaded the result to the Git repo. Windows 8 does not come anywhere near the craptacularity that is Gnome 3.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: dr.diesel on April 11, 2013, 01:14:33 am
craptacularity

 :-DD

Once at this level, the level of crap is nearly indistinguishable.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 11, 2013, 01:16:35 am
I'm just a user that has used every version since windows was originated and in my opinion the "start" screen works better than the "start" menu.

The fact that you're being polite and stating your opinion nicely doesn't matter when NERD RAGE!!!!

Uh, so... vi or emacs?
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Rufus on April 11, 2013, 01:27:57 am
Did you even look at the picture I posted?

all you have to do is pin the link to application on the start screen, one click will open your application.

the desktop is still there, and you can set it up like any version of windows you want.

how exactly is that worse?

One click opens my application now. To find which of the 494 things I want to click I navigate a menu with flyout sub menus. In what way is presenting 494 large buttons in a scrolling array big enough to fill around 20 screens not worse?
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: RJSC on April 11, 2013, 01:37:28 am
I was a fairly happy user of Windows 7, but:

Windows 8 drove me to KDE on Linux


I'm doing everything on Linux for the past 3 months with more or less effort and I love the functionality of command line on Linux.
I dislike the damn unix approax to everything on a filesystem, even hardware devices. The only thing I'm missing from windows is the device manager and the way you install drivers.

Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: dr.diesel on April 11, 2013, 01:40:49 am
I'm doing everything on Linux for the past 3 months
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.

I've been 100% m$ free for 10 years now, life is good, absolutely no regrets.  (Note:  I was drove this way from a 100% Microsoft guy)   :-+
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 11, 2013, 01:51:45 am
I'm doing everything on Linux for the past 3 months
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.

I've been 100% m$ free for 10 years now, life is good, absolutely no regrets.  (Note:  I was drove this way from a 100% Microsoft guy)   :-+

You must write all your own drivers.

I've been down the Linux road too, never had so many crashes  ;D
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Nirios on April 11, 2013, 01:55:43 am
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.

What? You don't like buying Apps for Word or Excel?? :-DD  And you thought there was security flaws before...
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 11, 2013, 02:03:03 am
I have Libre office, unfortunately I have to use the microsoft stuff for work, group collaboration and what not.

free is always good especially when your work buys it for you.

let the nerd rage begin  ;D are you gonna let me diss linux like that?
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: RJSC on April 11, 2013, 02:25:18 am
let the nerd rage begin  ;D are you gonna let me diss linux like that?

You can't drag me to flame wars...
Even if you were a (cr)Apple fanboy. ;D
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: peps1 on April 11, 2013, 01:28:56 pm
Iv just been forced to move onto windows 8 (due to my 2007 Macbook catching on fire) and having to go out and grab the first cheap laptop I could find.

Im really not a fan of the way they are crow-baring this tablet GUI onto a desk top....and for the life of me cant work out why they got rid of the start button?????

Have managed to get the Start button back with StatIsBack......but as soon as there is native Adobe support for linux I think there will be a mass exodus.

Get your Start button back!
De-Suck Windows 8: The Best Windows 8 Start Menu - Start8 vs Start is Back (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqUAg3cQxQo#ws)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: dr.diesel on April 11, 2013, 01:39:58 pm
Code: [Select]
All signs so far point to Windows 8 being a flop.

"Unfortunately, it seems clear that the Windows 8 launch not only didn't provide a positive boost to the PC market, but
appears to have slowed the market," IDC Vice President Bob O'Donnell said.

 :-DD

Source:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/research-firm-pc-sales-plunge-windows-flops-18926235?page=2#.UWa8q0BDv6U (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/research-firm-pc-sales-plunge-windows-flops-18926235?page=2#.UWa8q0BDv6U)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 11, 2013, 03:10:42 pm
Win8 only needs some refinement...
1) bring back start menu (customized to 95-XP style. Vista & 7 still sux), even if the windows button has to work to switch between desktop and tablet now i dont care. at least i still can click it with a mouse.
2) capability to group Apps in a folder in tablet GUI.
3) Tapping to move Icon is a PITA (nevermind organizing 400+ icons, no thanks). why they are stupid enough not to intelligently detect "move icon mode" by long downward swift and move around. currently the icons try to resist and play tugwar game with my tap.
4) and stop that stupid flat 2 colors palette icons ok? we are in 3D world icons now! you M$ thinks its cool? its not, its Darwin evolution! (back to the era of Telnet graphics except higher resolution)
but a big thumbs up to Win8 is it feels very light and responsive in my oldie Atom 1.6GHz 1GB RAM netbook.

as the OP 1 years ago said, it could be a good thing to Linux, but until some Linux movements settle with some aspects/problems, i'll stick with my XP.
1) one or very few, well accepted Linux version instead of many confusing versions
2) easy installation of device drivers and availability of drivers from most or all manufacturers
3) many famous softwares like Altium and Photoshop to name a few can be run in Linux. and many involvement from small developers to create giant collection of variety of softwares type and options
If Linux has to go "paid enterprise" and "a complete single click to install all with no programming knowledge requirement" version, i think this is the time, if it has to go "closed source" i dont care i'm not part of it, all i know is a usable, working and practical OS for hobbies, hackers, developers community and professionals alike. not guys and girls that go clubbing. Paid and closed Linux version means calling "profit-based" professional software developers and manufacturers around the globe into the game, which i believe will give the BOOM effect (with marketing effort of course!)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: BravoV on April 11, 2013, 03:27:29 pm
Brief history ..

:-+ Win XP
:-- Vista
:-+ Win 7
:-- Win 8
:-+ ... Win 9 ?

See the pattern ? Just wait until Windows 9 released, everyone will be happy as before.  :-DD

Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 11, 2013, 03:33:25 pm
in my experience...
:-+ Win XP
:-- Vista
:-- Win 7
:-- Win 8
?? Win 9 ?
See the pattern?
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: BravoV on April 11, 2013, 03:38:51 pm
in my experience...
:-+ Win XP
:-- Vista
:-- Win 7
:-- Win 8
?? Win 9 ?
See the pattern?

Nah .. your taste is just different from mainstream.   :-DD

But seriously ? geez Mech, can't believe you're still stuck at 32 bit/4 GB memory in this era of convenient and the luxury say like running multiple VMs.  :palm:
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 11, 2013, 04:46:00 pm
1) simply, i just cant let go the "start menu" with sub menus, XP style, not W7 style. i can go among 3 sublevel menus in split second in XP.
2) i have devices, i wont take risk of degraded functionality, or even buying new one in latest OS. my OS is for work, not for fun anymore.
3) no i'm not stuck, but i'm happy. i can move up and retreat back. where most of you will not be able to live the way i live ;) :P

in other word, i'm fully forward compatible (if i want to) but i doubt you can be "backward compatible". my old apps in XP still runnable in W8 :-+ anyway, i doubt you people will understand. to simply put it... i'm just an old guy mourning about the good old days waiting to be erased from existance.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on April 11, 2013, 06:01:01 pm
I have been playing with Windows 8 for a few days now and think it is quite possibly the best thing to ever happen to the Linux community.

Anyone else played with Win 8?

Yes, I did. I'm actually typing this on Windows 8. I tried the Customer Preview and loved it. There are so many improvements in W8 (memory management, scheduler, multi monitor support, file copying, networking and so on). Now it's on most of my workstations and also on my laptop (which is a Convertible and has a touch screen). The new interface still has some oddities, but for a first version of a completely new desktop after 18 years of evolution it's actually very good.

I also don't understand what the fuss is about re. the Start Menu button, because quite frankly for everyone who is not mentally challenged it should really not matter much if you click on a button on the lower left corner or just move the mouse in the lower left corner (or use the Windows key). The What-once-was-called-Metro interface can easily be treated like a full screen start menu, no need for a touch screen. But then, the same mob is screaming "burn it!" with almost every version of Windows since Windows 2.11, so nothing new here. I stopped listening to their whining when they repeated all the Vista nonsense that occasionally is still spread around (it was BS then, and is still BS today).

I also can't see why W8 should benefit Linux, because at the end of the day, an OS is not a purpose in itself (well, for some it is I guess) but is a means of providing the software infrastructure for running applications, and it doesn't matter how good or bad Linux is, if the applications aren't there no-one gives a damn (aside from the fact that even most current Linux distros still exhibit far worse issues than a missing Start button). Not a problem if the stuff that's available for Linux is good enough or one can write its own applications (that's why the embedded folks love Linux), tough if one needs certain commercial applications or wants a system that 'just works'.

The decline in consumer PC sales are mainly because of tablets, and also to a big part because most PC vendors couldn't be arsed to come up with proper computers for the Windows 8 launch (all they did was taking last year's models and stick Win8 on them). And corporate PC sales are stagnating because most companies have only now upgraded from Windowsxp to Windows 7, and this also only because MS is dropping support for XP soon.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 11, 2013, 06:08:33 pm
I also don't understand what the fuss is about re. the Start Menu button, because quite frankly for everyone who is not mentally challenged it should really not matter much if you click on a button on the lower left corner or just move the mouse in the lower left corner (or use the Windows key).

Like I said before, I don't care if it works just fine. I don't use the operating system for the sake of playing with its buttons, I use it as little as possible and expect it to dive the hell out of my way so I can launch a program. No matter how easy a new interface may be to learn, I refuse to learn one every time Microsoft shits one out.

It would work perfectly well to swap the gas and brake pedals in my car, but I'm not buying a car that's had that done to it.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on April 11, 2013, 06:08:55 pm
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.

OpenOffice/LibreOffice is fine if your requirements are low (i.e. the occasional letter, simple spreadsheets), but it's still so far behind even a ten year old MS Office 2003 that it's not even funny.

Which makes the fact that MS is pushing towards Office 365 even more painful.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: SeanB on April 11, 2013, 06:18:10 pm
Only reason I have Office ( the whole dang thing, complete with powerpoint and some other stuff I never use) is Outlook, though I must admit for 4 months I just used the web view on Linux, as I was waiting for the replacement computer, and was a little busy in the interim. Using the full functionality of office is not common, most are going to use Word, Excel and even then nowhere to full capacity. Libreoffice does all you commonly do in a good enough fashion to work with, though you do have some bugs opening documents in one and then editing in another.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 11, 2013, 06:21:09 pm
Only reason I have Office ( the whole dang thing, complete with powerpoint and some other stuff I never use) is Outlook

This is the one missing part of LibreOffice IMHO. They really need a PIM, and they really, really need to not half-ass it.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on April 11, 2013, 06:24:46 pm
I refuse to learn one every time Microsoft shits one out.

The thing is that the last time Microsoft has 'shat one out' was 18 years ago.  No offense, but I would expect a person of normal intellect to be able to handle a UI change every 18 years.  It took me two days to get used to 'Metro', it's not rocket science.

The other thing is that learning new stuff is part of our lives. A new car, new TV, moving to a new town. That new scope that comes with a different user interface than the previous model. Constant learning is also part of most jobs, and many employers are actually paying so that their employees learn something new.

The thing I don't understand is that, with all the constant change and need to learn new things around us, how some people can seriously expect that with computers, the epitomes of the fastest changing sectors of technology in the world, that all the knowledge they once learnt must be applicable unchanged forever. It's just ignorant and plain stupid.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on April 11, 2013, 06:31:08 pm
Why everyone hangs onto the start button like it's their old security blanket is beyond me.

Probably the same reason why the first thing they do on a new Windows XP installation is to restore the bland Windows 95 menu and color scheme.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 11, 2013, 06:33:11 pm
The thing is that the last time Microsoft has 'shat one out' was 18 years ago.
They rearrange for the sake of rearranging every major release. Hint: I don't just mean the application launcher.

Quote
It took me two days to get used to 'Metro', it's not rocket science.

Including all the little things that you haven't done since last year? I like that I know where all those things are and can find them on a whim, knowing they haven't moved, if I need them again. Microsoft rolls the "where should I put the setting" die every damn time they release a new version.

Quote
The thing I don't understand is that, with all the constant change and need to learn new things around us, how some people can seriously expect that with computers, the epitomes of the fastest changing sectors of technology, they can learn something and expect this knowledge to remain valid forever. It's just ignorant and plain stupid.

Because the user interface doesn't have to change. I don't know about you, but my computer does the same things it's done for years. It does them faster, and it's better at doing more of them at once, but other than that, not much has changed.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: SeanB on April 11, 2013, 06:48:53 pm
Just spent this week getting Office to work, without getting the red line of moan on top. Even though we have a site license. Then the annoying windows update and the stuck updates every bloody day, and the endless rebooting. Thank goodness for Teamviewer and the long suffering Helldesk. The 2 people there I deal with most have endless patience, even though a lot of the bigger files are coming in via sneakernet, bandwidth is expensive and limited.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: dr.diesel on April 11, 2013, 06:53:30 pm
Because the user interface doesn't have to change. I don't know about you, but my computer does the same things it's done for years. It does them faster, and it's better at doing more of them at once, but other than that, not much has changed.

Speak it brother, I don't know why this concept is so hard to understand.  You can only make the desktop so ergonomic, why Martha Stewart it to death?
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on April 11, 2013, 06:55:51 pm
They rearrange for the sake of rearranging every major release. Hint: I don't just mean the application launcher.

No, they don't. Many may think differently but MS doesn't just employ idiots (albeit I guess they have their fair share of them, too). Many changes are because of user feedback, and they do quite a bit of research in Human Factors and UI design.

Quote
Quote
It took me two days to get used to 'Metro', it's not rocket science.

Including all the little things that you haven't done since last year? I like that I know where all those things are and can find them on a whim, knowing they haven't moved, if I need them again.

The thing is that finding rarely used functions is getting easier with every Windows version, and with Windows 8 you don't even have to remember where that rarely used setting was. It's much more convenient than trying to remember where that one function I needed last time a year ago was.

Quote
Because the user interface doesn't have to change.

With that thinking we would still be stuck with paper tape and line printers  |O

UIs change because the way people use computer changes, and also because computers get more powerful which not only allows much more advanced user interfaces, and also new applications that again may require UI changes.

Quote
I don't know about you, but my computer does the same things it's done for years. It does them faster, and it's better at doing more of them at once, but other than that, not much has changed.

My computers do also mostly the same things they have done for years, but the thing is that these things have become much more advanced because of better computers (more performance, more RAM) which enable much more advanced applications. I'm spending a lot of time in front of a computer, and honestly Windows 8 makes it more comfortable than previous versions.

Don't get me wrong, if you refuse change for whatever reason then fine, and if you want to stay with your current GUI then of course that's your own business. But you should not expect that your preference is equally valid for other users, and you should not expect MS to cater for users that are against any change and at the end of the day only want to keep what they already have.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on April 11, 2013, 06:58:45 pm
Speak it brother, I don't know why this concept is so hard to understand.  You can only make the desktop so ergonomic

You might want to read a bit about Human Factors and UI design, just to understand why this statement is nonsense.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 11, 2013, 07:03:36 pm
No, they don't. Many may think differently but MS doesn't just employ idiots (albeit I guess they have their fair share of them, too). Many changes are because of user feedback, and they do quite a bit of research in Human Factors and UI design.

Their guesses being educated guesses doesn't change my opinion of them.

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The thing is that finding rarely used functions is getting easier with every Windows version, and with Windows 8 you don't even have to remember where that rarely used setting was. It's much more convenient than trying to remember where that one function I needed last time a year ago was.

Yes, all the various search features are quite nice. Why they can't add that without scattering all the settings is beyond me. My local library has a good enough search system that they could just randomly number the books and sort by number, but they don't do that because they're not retarded.

Quote
Quote
Because the user interface doesn't have to change.

With that thinking we would still be stuck with paper tape and line printers  |O

No, because those things aren't user interfaces, which is what I'm specifically talking about.

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UIs change because the way people use computer changes,

Or is it the other way around?

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and also because computers get more powerful which not only allows much more advanced user interfaces

IOW, change for the sake of change.

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and also new applications that again may require UI changes.

Like?

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Don't get me wrong, if you refuse change for whatever reason then fine, and if you want to stay with your current GUI then of course that's your own business. But you should not expect that your preference is equally valid for other users, and you should not expect MS to cater for users that are against any change and at the end of the day only want to keep what they already have.

Surely somebody at Microsoft understands what an option is? Let me reconfigure the system to keep it the way it was. I'd love to keep using old versions if they wouldn't stop supporting them, but they do.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: dr.diesel on April 11, 2013, 07:15:53 pm
Speak it brother, I don't know why this concept is so hard to understand.  You can only make the desktop so ergonomic

You might want to read a bit about Human Factors and UI design, just to understand why this statement is nonsense.

As a developer I understand it quite well, and completely understand that is it not nonsense.   

The industry appears to agree...
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 11, 2013, 07:28:13 pm
but I would expect a person of normal intellect to be able to handle a UI change every 18 years.
yup agree. i barely touched Vista long time ago, few hours experience with Win7 (upstair with my kids) and only testing for software compatibility, and now W8 from last night. i believe i went to every nooks and crannies of it, as other put it, its not a rocket science ;) i believe start menu is gone, but "Run" and "command.com" aka DOS are still there, how irony in this modern world  :-DD

The What-once-was-called-Metro interface can easily be treated like a full screen start menu, no need for a touch screen
yup agree, we got that alright ;) as i've expected, you didnt get my point and probably will never be. the keypoint is, efficiency, not epic'fancy. and before you say it, i admitted i'm just an obsolete mourner. ;) analogy that i can think of is like the newer DDS signal generator will never be able to produce super smooth sine steps just as analog oscillator did.

we do welcome advancement or addition in features, but what once was a good thing is removed and lost forever. maybe one day when no one talking about it anymore, someone with brilliant brain will come up with the idea again and it will be damned and then applaused just like today except the other way round. wanna prove? if you happen to follow things from DOS era... everythings once were all flat 2D with flat colors, and then came W3.11 better colors still flat somehow 3D, and then Win95-XP everythings 3D borders everybody was happy. when everybody got bored with 3D... now look what we have here? except with better pixels pitch and colors depth, its just a merry go round for the sake of circling the economy. cant be blamed really.

as for the UI, i believe the current trend is not about human factor, but more toward the crave of little gadgetries that you can bring everywhere and "online everytime".and the need for people to rub on something when they are in their sorry ass :P (no thats just kidding)  M$ got sucked up by Ipad and Samsung et al idea. and now they try to bring developers environment into a community who just want to use their free time in the bus or airplane watching fartbook, play games and videos. Clash of the Titans will occurs resulting Identity crisis :P
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: BiOzZ on April 11, 2013, 07:41:19 pm
i adopted it a few months ago ... took LOTS of getting used to but once you do its much MUCH more simple to use
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 11, 2013, 07:51:01 pm
yep anyway beside the mourning, i think i'm going to install that in the netbook for the wifey becoz that old netbook has the touch screen and swiveling monitor, i just need to find a way to wire the WIndows button out to the front when the keyboard is covered with the monitor. must be a good show off to friends and relatives. hey look! i got a 9" Win8Phone!
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Rufus on April 11, 2013, 08:55:38 pm
Why everyone hangs onto the start button like it's their old security blanket is beyond me.

Probably the same reason why the first thing they do on a new Windows XP installation is to restore the bland Windows 95 menu and color scheme.

I do that because it works better. I install classic shell on Win7 because it works better. I make use of new task bar features in Win7 because they work better. I won't use any of the start screen shit in Win8 because it works like shit and working like shit on the desktop is hardly surprising since it is blindly obvious it was designed for small screens with touch.

You whine on about people not being prepared to learn a new user interface while the whole point of the start screen shit in Win8 (and why it can't be removed and the start menu is gone) is to force a new user interface on its captive desktop market so those people don't have to learn a new interface to use Microsoft's phones and fondleslabs.

Microsoft same old same old, fuck what customers want we will use whatever leverage we have to make them buy what we have to sell.

Face it you took (the interface formally known as) Metro up the arse and are telling us you like how it feels.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 12, 2013, 12:11:49 am
 :-DD

Well it was only 39 bucks, that's not too bad up the old ying.

I was told at a job interview a few years back that because I didn't have windows 7 I would have a hard time learning their new software  ;D

what are you guys going to do when there is no more steering wheel, gas or brake pedals?

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/102109-goodbye-steering-wheel-here-comes.html (http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/102109-goodbye-steering-wheel-here-comes.html)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 12, 2013, 12:26:47 am
Quote
The car features a pair of joysticks that duplicate one another's movements so it doesn't matter which one is pushed, pulled or turned to control the car.

Hmm... two linked joysticks? Hope it's easier to fly drive than this:

(http://www.alexander-schleicher.de/produkte/ask21/ask21_001.jpg)


(Yeah, I know, it's not a "copilot" configuration. Still the first thing I thought of...)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on April 12, 2013, 12:27:39 am
Basically, everything people are saying about WIndows 8 is similar to what they said about Windows XP in 2001.

Companies didn't want to touch it. It looked like a toy. Everyone absolutely hated the activation - Windows 2000 didn't need activation unless you were one of the privileged countries like Australia where Microsoft was testing activation in Windows 2000. A year after introduction, Windows XP had sold just 17 million copies.

What are the Windows 8 sales after 6 months? My guess is 100 million? Not sure.

Windows XP was rubbish until Service Pack 1 and it only really became a great operating system after Service Pack 3. This is in spite of the fact that the changes from Windows 2000 to XP were far less radical ten the changes from Windows 7 to Windows 8. As an indication of the extent of Microsoft's changes to XP, the original XP ran fine in 256MBytes. By Sp3, you needed 1GByte of RAM. XP Sp3 was basically a different operating system to the original XP.

At the moment, I haven't seen any great hardware for Windows 8, and like Windows XP, it will probably take another year at least for Microsoft to make the changes it needs to get it working correctly, but just like XP, we will all be using it, or Windows 9, in a few years.

Windows 8 is taking the blame for PC sales slide, but the truth is that who needs to upgrade? My current main computer is a Dell XPS laptop 2.53GHz Intel Core Duo. It is fast enough. I have used it for programs like Maya (the leading 3D animation package) and it is fine. Why on earth would I need to upgrade? Basically, as long as a 5 year old PC is working well, it is more then adequate for speed and memory capacity for probably 99% of users.

The Windows 8 PC I am waiting for is a tablet with at least a 15 inch screen, nVidia or Radeon graphics chip, dual touch screen/Wacom pen, at minimum 1600 pixels wide resolution but much higher would be better. I don't care if it weighs 3 kilograms. I don't care if the battery life is only two hours. I want real functionality for content creation - not a content consuming PC which is all the reviewers think we need.

The last decent tablet PC for power and screen resolution go back to machines like the Toshiba M4 convertible  10 years ago, and since then all tablet PCs, including all the current Windows 8 tablets,  have been garbage. They are small-screen toys for bored people. And they wonder why they haven't been popular.

When the right hardware becomes available, there will be a reason for people to buy Windows 8.

Have Microsoft got it right? I would prefer different choices, but I am equally opposed to many of Apple's decisions as well. My no1 belief is that Activation for operating systems and programs is a disaster and my biggest wish is that somehow it can disappear. If I buy a license, I want to be able to run the software in 10 years when the company who sold software is long gone. If I create content using a software package today, I want to be able to return to the content in 10 years.

Who cares about the Start button? Since when was a Start button used for stopping the computer a good design idea anyway?

Richard
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 12, 2013, 12:47:33 am
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My no1 belief is that Activation for operating systems and programs is a disaster and my biggest wish is that somehow it can disappear
the same thing happened from XP-7-8, the complaints etc, is the same issue with this activation mechanism i believe. tomorrow is "online everytime", online activation, getting Apps from virtual place rented instead of bought etc. computing will not just get tied to OS and softwares only anymore, but PC/hardware is going to get tied to internet in the same way (no net no computing). whether we like it or not, we will be forced to whatever direction or paradigm the market gives us. the happy chaps will be our future generation who never taste the old way.
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Who cares about the Start button? Since when was a Start button used for stopping the computer a good design idea anyway?
its main purpose is not only for stopping computer. and some people used their both hand to navigate the desktop/start menu. leaning far forward just to slide and tap a giant button on a 23" monitor is an odd paradigm for some.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 12:51:47 am
Windows 8 is taking the blame for PC sales slide, but the truth is that who needs to upgrade? My current main computer is a Dell XPS laptop 2.53GHz Intel Core Duo. It is fast enough. I have used it for programs like Maya (the leading 3D animation package) and it is fine. Why on earth would I need to upgrade?

My hobby used to be PCs and upgrading them for fun. But as you said, it got unexciting because the machines are so capable it fell out of interest for me. I have an Athlon 6 core main PC I built probably 3 years ago and there is simply no reason to upgrade it.

So I moved on to model railroading ...  :-//
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 12, 2013, 12:53:57 am
tomorrow is "online everytime", online activation, getting Apps from virtual place rented instead of bought etc. computing will not just get tied to OS and softwares only anymore, but PC/hardware is going to get tied to internet in the same way (no net no computing).

It's a bean counter's wet dream. No more piracy when we're all SAAS bondage slaves. Gimp suits App Stores for everyone!
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 12, 2013, 01:02:14 am
yup agree about the upgrading issue, but another issue is "form factor"... monitor, pc, full sized keyboard and a mouse (and printer(s)). though i've been keen to a Levono or iMac alike setup form factor before (monitor and PC in one housing) but havent figured out how to carry the keyboard and mouse along in one bag for portability reason, no market providing me that setup yet afaik.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 12, 2013, 01:18:25 am
I hate to say it but my trusty dual core windows xp laptop is on it's last leg, and I will be buying a new one.

I really don't have a choice, and I doubt I can find parts to repair it.....and with the features the new laptops have why would I want to?


one feature of the "crappy new piece of crap metro garbage disgusting interface" is the search function, just start typing and whatever you're looking for comes up, if you can get past the "ugly disgustingly huge moronic icons" that also pop up:

 


Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amspire on April 12, 2013, 01:32:38 am
yup agree about the upgrading issue, but another issue is "form factor"... monitor, pc, full sized keyboard and a mouse (and printer(s)). though i've been keen to a Levono or iMac alike setup form factor before (monitor and PC in one housing) but havent figured out how to carry the keyboard and mouse along in one bag for portability reason, no market providing me that setup yet afaik.
When I got my dell laptop, I got a slightly oversized bag, and I always carry around a Bluetooth Dell (Logitech) keyboard and mouse. The bag has to be at least 44cm (17") wide. I have hardly used the laptop keyboard - perhaps I might need to use it once a month. The Dell Bluetooth keyboard and mouse actually works - unlike many other brands.

To me, using a proper keyboard with a laptop is the way to go, and I would use a tablet the same way.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 12, 2013, 01:38:39 am
To me, using a proper keyboard with a laptop is the way to go, and I would use a tablet the same way.

The keyboard is literally my most important criterion when I choose a laptop. If I can even imagine a very grumpy-mood version of myself having the slightest complaint, whine or worry about the keyboard, I do not buy the laptop.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: TerraHertz on April 12, 2013, 01:55:30 am
I liked the Windows 8 reference at the end of this Cracked article:
  http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-common-misconceptions-that-destroy-computers/ (http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-common-misconceptions-that-destroy-computers/)

IMO: Windows XP was the last Microsoft OS that could be remotely trusted to do what YOU want, and nothing else. And then only after extensive slash and burn of MS default bullshit.

There's a cool tool called nlite.   http://www.nliteos.com/nlite.html (http://www.nliteos.com/nlite.html)
The cut-down WinXP I install on 'new' machines here (ie newly acquired old machines) was produced by nlite.

I'm simply not interested in tagging along on Microsoft's Great Adventure in seeing how far they can screw people around before the majority revolt.

One reason MS constantly changes stuff at every level in Windows, is to maintain their huge cash inflow stream from all the Microsoft Certified Professionals that have to refresh their certification every year or two.
Another reason, is to obfuscate all the DRM crap that MS more and more deeply infests into Windows.
But lastly, and most importantly in Microsoft's business plan, is to morph the dominant computing platform into a totally closed architecture, in which MS (and government) can enforce pay-per-view media rentals (for the vast profits they think they can achieve), and also totally monitor everything everyone does with their computer. Which implies btw, that in their future vision you won't have ANY choice of which operating system to run on the hardware available for purchase.

It's laughable reading people complaining about UEFI 'secure boot', but then settling down and forgetting about it because "oh, I found it's still possible to get around this, so no problem."
Ha ha ha... so naive!

My advice: don't throw out your old computers. Upgrade if you want, but keep the old machines in a cupboard or whatever. Or you might feel pretty dumb one day, when Adobe gets the order to broadcast a command to Acrobat to reflash HD firmware with junk, then 'upgrade' CPU microcode and BIOS flash with more junk. And then also reflashes the net backbone routers with garbage. A few hours to achieve no more net and most PCs permanently bricked. (Just one feasible scenario for achieving the same end result.)
You know that 'Internet Off switch' joke? It's not a joke.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: RJSC on April 12, 2013, 02:04:48 am
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.
OpenOffice/LibreOffice is fine if your requirements are low (i.e. the occasional letter, simple spreadsheets), but it's still so far behind even a ten year old MS Office 2003 that it's not even funny.

I've been using it to do my academic reports including math formulas, graphics, etc...
I've started using LibreOffice still in Windows 7...

But if I ever need Microsoft Office again, it runs on Wine:
(http://www.liberiangeek.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/office_wine_precise_14.png)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: TerraHertz on April 12, 2013, 02:11:06 am
The keyboard is literally my most important criterion when I choose a laptop. If I can even imagine a very grumpy-mood version of myself having the slightest complaint, whine or worry about the keyboard, I do not buy the laptop.

Agreed. My biggest laptop purchase mistake was getting one with the neat-looking perfectly flat, flush square keytops. Result: you can't feel the registration of your fingertips with the keys. So either you watch and visually align every keypress, or you mistype all the time.
How did this stupid idea get past product testing? What, no product testing, just churn them out? Well shit...

Incidentally, does anyone know of a solidly built full scale USB keyboard with the standard key layout EXCEPT no numeric keypad? I've been looking for one forever. Never use the numeric pad and always wish the keyboard was shorter.
Every keyboard I find that has the numeric keypad removed, also has everything else scrunched up or moved around. Apparently the designers seem to think 'small' excuses making the entire thing awkward to use.

I'd have simply hacksawed the end off a standard keyboard, except guess where the control IC always is.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 12, 2013, 02:45:21 am
I have 8 different computers, my oldest son has 4, my nine year old daughter has 2, everyone in my family owns a laptop, the computer I'm typing on right now cost me 40 bucks at a  habitat for humanity store.

 I have every version of windows full installs on original disks in a box.< just in case the grabberment comes and tries to take my computer and so I can re-build civilization after the apocalypse

I have a linux computer that I used for recording audio, another I use for cnc stuff.

I have a mac that sits in the closet.

Is anyone else here actually using windows 8 and can you give an unbiased opinion of it?

just wondering  ;D
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: c4757p on April 12, 2013, 02:46:21 am
I have a mac that sits in the closet.

There's a politically incorrect joke in here somewhere...
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 12, 2013, 02:49:34 am
YEp, i'm one of the stupid ones that bought into the whole "macs are supercomputers" thing, g4's look cool but they are definitely not supercomputers.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Lightages on April 12, 2013, 02:51:40 am
I have not read the whole thread, sorry. I do have to say something though. I have been using computers since 1980. I have built computers, modified them, programmed in various languages, run a small company supporting small businesses for computers and networking, and I use computers everyday in many capacities. I have run many different OSes including Linux, BSD, OS/2, and all flavors of Microsoft PC OSes since DOS 2.x .

Never in my life have I been more confused and bewildered at the weird paradigm shift of a GUI in all that time. To me it is as if Jobs if actually still alive and working inside Microsoft and trying to sabotage their company by forcing this new interface down customer's throats.

DOS, liked it.
Window 3.11, it was OK
Windows 95, the original GUI for OS/2 wasn't so great as a shell for DOS
Windows 98se, pretty good for what it was
2000, one of the best Microsoft put out, what 95 should have been
Windows ME,  :-DD
Windows XP,  |O and then it actually got worth using after major overhauling
Vista, Windows ME 2, what mess  :o
Windows 7, finally a system that runs well like 2000 and with a good interface. Vista in sheep's clothing.....
Windows 8, who ate all my LSD?   :scared: Windows ME 2²

If I was forced to run a GUI in Windows 8 that it has by default and I could not change it, I would be off to Apple or Linux. Nothing is worth that idiocy.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Rufus on April 12, 2013, 02:58:31 am
one feature of the "crappy new piece of crap metro garbage disgusting interface" is the search function, just start typing and whatever you're looking for comes up, if you can get past the "ugly disgustingly huge moronic icons" that also pop up:

You mean the feature Win7 already has? Funny how so many didn't discovered this till they needed to work around the awful Win8 start screen.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: PeteInTexas on April 12, 2013, 03:26:29 am
If you are "set in your ways", Windows 8 is not for you.  There is nothing wrong with that.   :P

Microsoft really need to stop hanging on to "Windows" every time they introduce something remotely different from what people think of "Windows".  It was great run, but it long past time to move on to something else.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: grenert on April 12, 2013, 04:50:31 am
My hobby used to be PCs and upgrading them for fun. But as you said, it got unexciting because the machines are so capable it fell out of interest for me. I have an Athlon 6 core main PC I built probably 3 years ago and there is simply no reason to upgrade it.

So I moved on to model railroading ...  :-//
I used to do the same thing.  Once I stopped playing videogames, there was not much reason to ever upgrade anymore.  I ran an overclocked Athlon Thunderbird untiil about 3-4 years ago!  Finally I upgraded so that I could run XP and some software/hardware that didn't work under 2000, and that is what I continue to use today.  It doesn't take much horsepower to surf the web, use Office and Photoshop, play music.

Trains are a lot more interesting  :)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 12, 2013, 05:17:47 am
When I got my dell laptop, I got a slightly oversized bag, and I always carry around a Bluetooth Dell (Logitech) keyboard and mouse. The bag has to be at least 44cm (17") wide. I have hardly used the laptop keyboard - perhaps I might need to use it once a month. The Dell Bluetooth keyboard and mouse actually works - unlike many other brands.
To me, using a proper keyboard with a laptop is the way to go, and I would use a tablet the same way.
my requirement is/was at least 23" monitor. basically a gigantic laptop with full sized keyboard. i dont need battery or keyboard attached to the monitor though, basically just a portable PC type that i can attach to power outlet anywhere. i still have this paradigm that any laptop/netbook no matter how big it is (13"?) is still less optimum for real work. using laptop with built in keyboard with external fullsize keyboard is kind of ackward, but thats just me, as i said i havent found such setup off-the-market. the closest is Lenovo et al, but lacking of carrying bag.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on April 12, 2013, 05:56:40 am
Probably the same reason why the first thing they do on a new Windows XP installation is to restore the bland Windows 95 menu and color scheme.

I do that because it works better. I install classic shell on Win7 because it works better.

Does it really? Or is it just another expression of your resistance to change? Because from an ergonomical point of view it's inferior to any modern UI.

Quote
You whine on about people not being prepared to learn a new user interface

I'm certainly not whining (remember, it's not me complaining that MS' new OS doesn't cater for people stuck in the 1990's). But having worked in corporate IT for quite q while I have seen enough people with that 'my way or the highway' attitude towards computing, so that's nothing new.

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while the whole point of the start screen shit in Win8 (and why it can't be removed and the start menu is gone) is to force a new user interface on its captive desktop market so those people don't have to learn a new interface to use Microsoft's phones and fondleslabs.

No, the reason of this 'start screen shit' is to bring the UI into the 21st century and adapt to the way people are starting to use computers. Being stuck in the past you may have not realized it but the standard Windows desktop is crap when using on touchscreens (I know, I have used it). The new Metro GUI works with both touch devices and mouse/keyboard. It's certainly not perfect but it's a first step into the right direction.

Quote
Microsoft same old same old, fuck what customers want we will use whatever leverage we have to make them buy what we have to sell.

Yeah, sure. Windows is still the #1 desktop OS and actually increasing it's already huge share in the server market because MS gives a shit on what customers want.

Quote
Face it you took (the interface formally known as) Metro up the arse and are telling us you like how it feels.

As I said, I'm using Windows 8 for quite a while, and having to go back to Windows 7 or even XP (shudder!) just shows me how much better Windows 8 is. I'm not a fan of Metro, really not, but I don't let the fact that my Start menu is now full screen and that I have to move the mouse into the lower left corner instead of clicking on a button get in the way of benefitting from the many advances that are in Windows 8.

Again, it's perfectly fine to stay with your old OS. But it looks silly when someone complains that a new OS version doesn't cater for the people that are stuck in their old ways because they are too unflexible to change. That's not a group MS caters for. Actually, that is a group very few companies cater for.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: amyk on April 12, 2013, 11:37:07 am
Because from an ergonomical point of view it's inferior to any modern UI.
Exactly what is that supposed to mean?
Quote
No, the reason of this 'start screen shit' is to bring the UI into the 21st century and adapt to the way people are starting to use computers. Being stuck in the past you may have not realized it but the standard Windows desktop is crap when using on touchscreens (I know, I have used it). The new Metro GUI works with both touch devices and mouse/keyboard. It's certainly not perfect but it's a first step into the right direction.
The way most people "use" computers is not necessarily the most efficient, nor do they really use much of the features of an OS, but that doesn't mean everything should be dumbed down for only them. Metro was designed for touchscreens, so it's definitely going to be good for them, but it's a step backwards for mouse/keyboard navigation. If you're implying that we should all switch to touchscreens, then that's even worse --- I move my mouse a tiny amount and I can get the cursor anywhere on 27" of monitor. I don't want to move my arm that much on a touchscreen, and I don't need to with a mouse. Touchscreens are horrible for serious work. If this is "21st century" then I'd rather stay in the past, because this is yet another example that newer is not always better.
Quote
As I said, I'm using Windows 8 for quite a while, and having to go back to Windows 7 or even XP (shudder!) just shows me how much better Windows 8 is. I'm not a fan of Metro, really not, but I don't let the fact that my Start menu is now full screen and that I have to move the mouse into the lower left corner instead of clicking on a button get in the way of benefitting from the many advances that are in Windows 8.
What are these "many advances"? Have they increased the productivity of your workflow?
Quote
Again, it's perfectly fine to stay with your old OS. But it looks silly when someone complains that a new OS version doesn't cater for the people that are stuck in their old ways because they are too unflexible to change.
It looks sillier when someone thinks needless breaking changes are good. We are "too unflexible to change" because these changes impact productivity. Maybe if you're an employee who wants to get paid more for doing less so these changes slowing you down can help...

Quote
My advice: don't throw out your old computers. Upgrade if you want, but keep the old machines in a cupboard or whatever.
Agreed (not just from the e-waste perspective). I have systems where I have datasheets for everything on the motherboard and there is no DRM weirdness. Real serial and parallel ports too. The days when hardware does exactly what you want, and nothing more... have passed by. :(
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 12, 2013, 11:49:08 am
No, the reason of this 'start screen shit' is to bring the UI into the 21st century and adapt to the way people are starting to use computers. Being stuck in the past you may have not realized it but the standard Windows desktop is crap when using on touchscreens (I know, I have used it). The new Metro GUI works with both touch devices and mouse/keyboard. It's certainly not perfect but it's a first step into the right direction.
1) can you "navigate" metro menu faster with touch? compared to classic menu + mouse + keyboard? esp for large amount of items.
2) why take out the "classic XP start menu"? and still leave the Run console available? Run console is more archaic than "classic start menu" whats the argument there?

we have no objection with metro menu, if M$ decided to let us set our PC setting to classic windows, we will just do it and entirely ignore the metro menu, happy ending! But the decision made to take out the menu entirely and enforced us to enter tablet mode is what made people call it "shit" happened. imho.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: 4to20Milliamps on April 12, 2013, 12:25:10 pm
The desktop is still there and works exactly like every other version of windows, there are several third party applications that can "restore" the start button and menu structure, you can boot directly to the desktop and never even use the start "screen"


Trust me if this operating system was crap......I would know it..... so far it has run all of my software, boots in seconds, has no stability issues, I tried something new and left updates ON and I have never seen it update and it is up to date, the antivirus software is working fine and doesn't slow down the computer, the advanced features like mounting an ISO, partitioning drives, burning disks, etc<work.

this is not windows ME this actually works and is functional, and I've suffered through a lot using windows.... it's about time.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: baljemmett on April 12, 2013, 01:34:29 pm
Since when was a Start button used for stopping the computer a good design idea anyway?

Since the usability tests MS did on the Win95 shell showed that's where people looked for the shutdown option (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/07/22/54559.aspx) ;)
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: GK on April 12, 2013, 01:51:00 pm
It looks sillier when someone thinks needless breaking changes are good. We are "too unflexible to change" because these changes impact productivity. Maybe if you're an employee who wants to get paid more for doing less so these changes slowing you down can help...


The wheel is embarrassingly old. It's about time we stop resisting change and move onto something different.

 
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 12, 2013, 03:01:35 pm
Since when was a Start button used for stopping the computer a good design idea anyway?
Since the usability tests MS did on the Win95 shell showed that's where people looked for the shutdown option (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/07/22/54559.aspx) ;)
want the good design for stopping computer? that round (or square depending on the model) button at the front of your PC casing/panel. once upon a time you hit that, computer shut down in 0 sec, now it will take a while, i've set that button as hibernation for my PC, quite handy ;) to completely OFF the PC in W8 is not intuitive either :shrug infact more steps of nonsense (logout user, slide-tap-up panoramic-click symbol-shut down), and even the modern devices are back to that "hard" button usually found at the side of the device, but sadly its not 0 sec shutdown anymore (for some devices) and certainly not a "HARD OFF" :P
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: JoeyP on April 12, 2013, 07:32:57 pm
... there are several third party applications that can "restore" the start button and menu structure, you can boot directly to the desktop and never even use the start "screen"

Exactly. It takes a third party app to "restore" the missing features that people want. So Microsoft can keep DOS compatibility features, but it's too much to ask to be able to use a menu system to start a program? I have hundreds of apps on my PC, and having to access them through a huge inefficient grid of giant tiles on the screen is absolutely asinine. Microsoft has totally screwed the pooch with Windows 8. Like Vista, it's one to skip, and wait for them to get it right with Windows 9. PC != Phone.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: Mechatrommer on April 12, 2013, 08:17:05 pm
huge inefficient grid of giant tiles on the screen
just in case you havent noticed, FWIW... go to bottom right, there is minus sign. click that, the giant tiles will go tiny, but i'm not sure though how it works for hundreds of tiles since i'm not thinking to install all the softwares in it (just enough for the wifey to be happy) and tapping anywhere once will bring back to giant tiles. the bad thing is the minus sign is at the very edge of the screen even my small finger cannot reach, only by mouse. M$ should be smart enough to not to do that in the first place if "touch" is in their right mind.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: JoeyP on April 12, 2013, 09:29:36 pm
huge inefficient grid of giant tiles on the screen
just in case you havent noticed, FWIW... go to bottom right, there is minus sign. click that, the giant tiles will go tiny, but i'm not sure though how it works for hundreds of tiles since i'm not thinking to install all the softwares in it (just enough for the wifey to be happy) and tapping anywhere once will bring back to giant tiles. the bad thing is the minus sign is at the very edge of the screen even my small finger cannot reach, only by mouse. M$ should be smart enough to not to do that in the first place if "touch" is in their right mind.

That really doesn't change anything for me. Having to search through a huge array of hundreds of shortcuts/tiles to start an app is absurdly inefficient compared to a menu system where you can organize by subject and access any program within just a few levels.

I have no problem with them adding a new paradigm for those who want to pretend their PC is a phone. But to remove functionality and not replace it with something at least equally functional/efficient is the sort of thing that makes people hate Microsoft. I personally am not (yet) a Microsoft hater. I use Windows exclusively. I just think they've gone down a lot of wrong roads since Steve Ballmer  replaced Bill Gates, and Windows 8 is an excellent example of that.
Title: Re: Windows 8
Post by: IvoS on April 12, 2013, 11:45:10 pm
I just got new ASUS notebook with win8 and I have to say, I don't like it much. I have to do more clicks for tasks I was used to in win7. Therefore I took my old SSD from Acer notebook and put it to my new Asus. Sure enough, I had win7 activation problem. Called Microsoft and dude name David issued a new reg #, all done in 3 minutes. I have to give Microsoft big thumb up  :-+ for not asking stupid questions and for getting quickly down to business. Thank god for those people with common sense who work there realizing quickly that since I spent money for win8 license already with my new PC, issuing a new reg code for the previous win7 copy is not a problem.  :) :-+