but then again, I remember how Windows 3 was bagged by the msdos loversIt was a cumbersome buggy POS incapable of properly manageing even 640K of RAM
how XP was bagged when it came outIt was Win2K with the introduction of flawed 2nd guessing
how Vista was bagged and Windows 7 ended up with the same engine.Vista was a flawed nasty piece of crap. Win7 the clever name for the immediately required point one release
It is a brilliant move making the Windows GUI and tablet GUI's the samewhy? Dumb the UI down to take the least advantage of machines with some decent interface device. IE: a keyboard.
as the old style Windows just cannot work on a tablet.Neither can Microsoft's laughable attempt at a windows phone
Windows 8 phone will also have the same interface feel.Nausea?
Notebooks hardware will change, and I imagine Linux will make use of the touch screens before long as well.Doesn't Android already do that?
Whatever we think about it, Windows 8 will change computers.Yeah it will obsolete a metric shitload of otherwise usable hardware as zombie clickers and other dreamers race up the next new thing cul-de-sac.
I find it hard to find the "Bring Back MSDOS" people now. The current GUI will go the same way.It's not so much bring back DOS as bring back some of it's better aspect. Touch screen pads don't replace notebooks although they may be fine for
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................
The question is just, will they get away with it or not? My guess is, they will.
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................
The question is just, will they get away with it or not? My guess is, they will.
I am not so sure, Apple (love or hate them) are gaining ground on Microsoft slowly. Linux is the best os out there but unfortunately it is far to fragmented for mainstream use.
Seems to me Microsoft are out to piss everyone off.................
The question is just, will they get away with it or not? My guess is, they will.
I am not so sure, Apple (love or hate them) are gaining ground on Microsoft slowly. Linux is the best os out there but unfortunately it is far to fragmented for mainstream use.
Regarding Apple, Microsoft invested in them at some time when they were down. I don't know if Microsoft still holds an interest in them. I
I wont be going anywhere near Windows 8 until the situation with UEFI secure booting is clarified. If I can't install Linux on any Laptop I wanted to buy because of this I will steer clear.
Some people will not like the look of the interface, but they will just use the Windows 7 GUI.
I wont be going anywhere near Windows 8 until the situation with UEFI secure booting is clarified. If I can't install Linux on any Laptop I wanted to buy because of this I will steer clear.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/yes-uefi-secure-boot-could-lock-out-linux-from-windows-8-pcs/14897 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/yes-uefi-secure-boot-could-lock-out-linux-from-windows-8-pcs/14897)
I think Microsoft has shot itself in the foot over this.
David.
I still haven't found any advantages in Win7,
so stick with my XP.
Maybe someday I will be forced (drivers?) but I think by that time all Linux version will be games-management-apps-fair polluted too.
The new GUI SUX..............its a PC not bloody tablet or phone.............Apple looks to be heading in the same direction (or maybe Microsoft is just following Apple's lead). One or two more versions and Apple'll have turned my iMac into a 27" tablet.
Like it or not, computers do need to move more towards being an appliance with a simpler interface. Ultimately, even for professionals, you want a device you just turn on, run a program and have an intuitive interface for the program that means you do not have to look at the manual.The new GUI SUX..............its a PC not bloody tablet or phone.............Apple looks to be heading in the same direction (or maybe Microsoft is just following Apple's lead). One or two more versions and Apple'll have turned my iMac into a 27" tablet.
The whole industry seems to be heading for mandatory code signing, locked down platforms, etc. This might indeed be good for Linux (and alternatives), as long as there's decent hardware you can still run it on.
I suspect that once it has been around for a while and had the problems ironed out it will find its place.
I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to. If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.That's cool, as long as the end user has ultimate control over the locking mechanism, if the user wants to change it. Most of that should involve implementing a whitelist policy for security, as opposed to the blacklist approach today. I certainly hate to see computing going down the path of corporate controlled DRM schemes. This is already happening with Apple, and I'm not too comfortable with that.
It is a necessity even if it is not cool. This is a complication that no-one really wants including Microsoft. It is not just a cynical marketing ploy. They really do not know any alternative. The truth is that no fully online computer system can be fully secured today. No current operating system can be made secure, as every one has one overriding fatal flaw - if you can get to a low enough level in the software, you can do anything you want, and nothing can stop you. If someone really wants to break in, a way can be found, as proven every year at the Black Hat conferences. There are people who think they are so competent they are able to prevent getting attacked, but they are deluded.I am have been using computers since the days of CPM 2.2 and the Unixes from the 70's, and I love being able to do what I like without anyone restricting me, but the truth is, it just does not work going into the future - however much you want it to. If you want computers to become even more connected, the security fundamentals have to be locked down at a very fundamental level.That's cool, as long as the end user has ultimate control over the locking mechanism, if the user wants to change it. Most of that should involve implementing a whitelist policy for security, as opposed to the blacklist approach today. I certainly hate to see computing going down the path of corporate controlled DRM schemes. This is already happening with Apple, and I'm not too comfortable with that.
It is a necessity even if it is not cool...
That is unfortunately not true if you are on the Internet of a local network. Your judgement and skill is irrelevant. Microsoft and Apple and Linux cannot make any current operating system secure if you make connections (like browsing a website). If serious hackers want to break into your system, they can. In many cases, they are not using bugs in the operating system. They often are using a chain of "features" of the operating system. None on their own would be a security threat.It is a necessity even if it is not cool...So your computer is the same. It's easy to keep it secure, you just lock it down and don't allow any programs or software inside it that you don't trust. Only here is where you have a problem. How can you know what to trust? If you don't trust it, how can you check? Some authority may tell it you it can be trusted, but can you always trust that authority? Worse than that, a majority of computer owners are very liberal with their trust, and allow all sorts of random software onboard. They don't think this should be their problem, they think "the computer should protect them".
That is unfortunately not true if you are on the Internet of a local network. Your judgement and skill is irrelevant. Microsoft and Apple and Linux cannot make any current operating system secure if you make connections (like browsing a website).
So basically you are implying a similar scheme used by EFTPOS and other electronic transaction systems where things are arbitrated by a central authority. Client side hardware is issued through authorized channels, and it is obscured through various anti-tampering schemes. I'd say that's ok for specific subsystems. But completely prevent users installing their own chosen apps, operating systems? Nah. I'd rather use a less secure system instead.As the quote goes, "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither." :)
... But having used Windows 7 for a while, I have found it is nicer in many subtle ways. I think many of us just like to stick with what we are used to and we try to avoid change.
Lost data was a big problem once apon a time, then some smart people invented things like cd/dvd burners and flash drives for making backups.I think Win8 will work so well as a tablet, that in a year or so, it will take big chunks of market away from the iPad. There is a big market for a real computer in tablet form, and the problem has always been that the current Windows GUI is well proven to be no good as a tablet interface. It is partly the need for a mouse, but a bigger issue is that a comfortable tablet screen just doesn't fit modern Windows applications.
I still say Win8 is an attempt to make a desktop PC work as a tablet. This does not work and will never work.
Not true at all. If there is an alternative to Windows for mainstream users, what is it? Linux is appalling for binary code compatibility and it has always been so. It is incredibly hard installing a 10 year old Linux program on the latest Linux release, even if you have the source code. If you are not a programmer, you have no chance. Apple is too expensive and businesses are very price sensitive. Apple has very limited hardware options as well. Apple has been pretty bad on binary code compatibility.
I believe the issue with Windows mobile is the fact that people have a CHOICE with the OS there phone runs. People use Windows on there desktop because they have to. They are force fed Windows at school and then at work.
I LIKE the programs an operating system can run, but as I am not sure that liking an operating system is important at all. I think most people would be very happy with any operating system if it ran all the applications that they want to run.
This has made windows the mainstream desktop OS. This does not mean people LIKE Windows, it means people have no other realistic choice.
Microsoft will not need to force people to use their mobile. Microsoft have taken the huge decision to rewrite the whole of Windows 8 mobile to be more compatible with Windows 8. When users have Win8 PC and tablet, it will not be hard to sell Windows 8 mobile phones at all.
When it comes to phones however, people have a choice of 3 main operating systems. There is no way for Microsoft to force people to use there mobile OS.
Regards
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.Back when Windows XP was being released, people really loved Windows 2000 with its neat very conservative palettes.
First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.
Amspire, you make some good points. After playing with win8, i really cant help thinking 2 things.Back when Windows XP was being released, people really loved Windows 2000 with its neat very conservative palettes.
First, it really looks more like a childs toy than an operating system, same for windows mobile.
When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.
Now Windows XP is regarded as the old conservative GUI.
If you are going to a touch interface, then big buttons are great. As you get older and the eyesight is not so good, big buttons are even better.
When XP came out, many people HATED it - they said it looked like a "child's toy" with the brighter colours, toy-like rounded edges on the windows and bigger icons.
I loved Win 95, 98 XP,Windows 7 never really liked win2k or Vista. Its just Windows 8 i have an issue with. I just dont see a desktop PC ever running a touchscreen well. Too many applications simply wont work in this environment.
I for one will never surrender my Mouse and Keyboard.
Shortline: I was okay with the GUI with Vista/7 in fact i liked it because i have the search barthat search bar top right of explorer.exe? with indexing capabilty? how to search hidden+certain size+past 1 month file with certain "text" inside it?
Why everyone hangs onto the start button like it's their old security blanket is beyond me, I just made my own shutdown and restart buttons.
how exactly is that worse?
Windows 8 is a complete and absolute abomination.... Putting it on the desktop was a clear act of stupidity.
I'm starting to get the feeling that Bill Gates burned your house down.
how exactly is that worse?
Windows 8 is a complete and absolute abomination.... Putting it on the desktop was a clear act of stupidity.
I'm starting to get the feeling that Bill Gates burned your house down.
Nope, Gnome 3 is in the same boat, crap = crap.
craptacularity
I'm just a user that has used every version since windows was originated and in my opinion the "start" screen works better than the "start" menu.
Did you even look at the picture I posted?
all you have to do is pin the link to application on the start screen, one click will open your application.
the desktop is still there, and you can set it up like any version of windows you want.
how exactly is that worse?
I'm doing everything on Linux for the past 3 months
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.
I'm doing everything on Linux for the past 3 months
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.
I've been 100% m$ free for 10 years now, life is good, absolutely no regrets. (Note: I was drove this way from a 100% Microsoft guy) :-+
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.
let the nerd rage begin ;D are you gonna let me diss linux like that?
All signs so far point to Windows 8 being a flop.
"Unfortunately, it seems clear that the Windows 8 launch not only didn't provide a positive boost to the PC market, but
appears to have slowed the market," IDC Vice President Bob O'Donnell said.
in my experience...
:-+ Win XP
:-- Vista
:-- Win 7
:-- Win 8
?? Win 9 ?
See the pattern?
I have been playing with Windows 8 for a few days now and think it is quite possibly the best thing to ever happen to the Linux community.
Anyone else played with Win 8?
I also don't understand what the fuss is about re. the Start Menu button, because quite frankly for everyone who is not mentally challenged it should really not matter much if you click on a button on the lower left corner or just move the mouse in the lower left corner (or use the Windows key).
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.
Only reason I have Office ( the whole dang thing, complete with powerpoint and some other stuff I never use) is Outlook
I refuse to learn one every time Microsoft shits one out.
Why everyone hangs onto the start button like it's their old security blanket is beyond me.
The thing is that the last time Microsoft has 'shat one out' was 18 years ago.They rearrange for the sake of rearranging every major release. Hint: I don't just mean the application launcher.
It took me two days to get used to 'Metro', it's not rocket science.
The thing I don't understand is that, with all the constant change and need to learn new things around us, how some people can seriously expect that with computers, the epitomes of the fastest changing sectors of technology, they can learn something and expect this knowledge to remain valid forever. It's just ignorant and plain stupid.
Because the user interface doesn't have to change. I don't know about you, but my computer does the same things it's done for years. It does them faster, and it's better at doing more of them at once, but other than that, not much has changed.
They rearrange for the sake of rearranging every major release. Hint: I don't just mean the application launcher.
QuoteIt took me two days to get used to 'Metro', it's not rocket science.
Including all the little things that you haven't done since last year? I like that I know where all those things are and can find them on a whim, knowing they haven't moved, if I need them again.
Because the user interface doesn't have to change.
I don't know about you, but my computer does the same things it's done for years. It does them faster, and it's better at doing more of them at once, but other than that, not much has changed.
Speak it brother, I don't know why this concept is so hard to understand. You can only make the desktop so ergonomic
No, they don't. Many may think differently but MS doesn't just employ idiots (albeit I guess they have their fair share of them, too). Many changes are because of user feedback, and they do quite a bit of research in Human Factors and UI design.
The thing is that finding rarely used functions is getting easier with every Windows version, and with Windows 8 you don't even have to remember where that rarely used setting was. It's much more convenient than trying to remember where that one function I needed last time a year ago was.
QuoteBecause the user interface doesn't have to change.
With that thinking we would still be stuck with paper tape and line printers |O
UIs change because the way people use computer changes,
and also because computers get more powerful which not only allows much more advanced user interfaces
and also new applications that again may require UI changes.
Don't get me wrong, if you refuse change for whatever reason then fine, and if you want to stay with your current GUI then of course that's your own business. But you should not expect that your preference is equally valid for other users, and you should not expect MS to cater for users that are against any change and at the end of the day only want to keep what they already have.
Speak it brother, I don't know why this concept is so hard to understand. You can only make the desktop so ergonomic
You might want to read a bit about Human Factors and UI design, just to understand why this statement is nonsense.
but I would expect a person of normal intellect to be able to handle a UI change every 18 years.yup agree. i barely touched Vista long time ago, few hours experience with Win7 (upstair with my kids) and only testing for software compatibility, and now W8 from last night. i believe i went to every nooks and crannies of it, as other put it, its not a rocket science ;) i believe start menu is gone, but "Run" and "command.com" aka DOS are still there, how irony in this modern world :-DD
The What-once-was-called-Metro interface can easily be treated like a full screen start menu, no need for a touch screenyup agree, we got that alright ;) as i've expected, you didnt get my point and probably will never be. the keypoint is, efficiency, not epic'fancy. and before you say it, i admitted i'm just an obsolete mourner. ;) analogy that i can think of is like the newer DDS signal generator will never be able to produce super smooth sine steps just as analog oscillator did.
Why everyone hangs onto the start button like it's their old security blanket is beyond me.
Probably the same reason why the first thing they do on a new Windows XP installation is to restore the bland Windows 95 menu and color scheme.
The car features a pair of joysticks that duplicate one another's movements so it doesn't matter which one is pushed, pulled or turned to control the car.
My no1 belief is that Activation for operating systems and programs is a disaster and my biggest wish is that somehow it can disappearthe same thing happened from XP-7-8, the complaints etc, is the same issue with this activation mechanism i believe. tomorrow is "online everytime", online activation, getting Apps from virtual place rented instead of bought etc. computing will not just get tied to OS and softwares only anymore, but PC/hardware is going to get tied to internet in the same way (no net no computing). whether we like it or not, we will be forced to whatever direction or paradigm the market gives us. the happy chaps will be our future generation who never taste the old way.
Who cares about the Start button? Since when was a Start button used for stopping the computer a good design idea anyway?its main purpose is not only for stopping computer. and some people used their both hand to navigate the desktop/start menu. leaning far forward just to slide and tap a giant button on a 23" monitor is an odd paradigm for some.
Windows 8 is taking the blame for PC sales slide, but the truth is that who needs to upgrade? My current main computer is a Dell XPS laptop 2.53GHz Intel Core Duo. It is fast enough. I have used it for programs like Maya (the leading 3D animation package) and it is fine. Why on earth would I need to upgrade?
tomorrow is "online everytime", online activation, getting Apps from virtual place rented instead of bought etc. computing will not just get tied to OS and softwares only anymore, but PC/hardware is going to get tied to internet in the same way (no net no computing).
yup agree about the upgrading issue, but another issue is "form factor"... monitor, pc, full sized keyboard and a mouse (and printer(s)). though i've been keen to a Levono or iMac alike setup form factor before (monitor and PC in one housing) but havent figured out how to carry the keyboard and mouse along in one bag for portability reason, no market providing me that setup yet afaik.When I got my dell laptop, I got a slightly oversized bag, and I always carry around a Bluetooth Dell (Logitech) keyboard and mouse. The bag has to be at least 44cm (17") wide. I have hardly used the laptop keyboard - perhaps I might need to use it once a month. The Dell Bluetooth keyboard and mouse actually works - unlike many other brands.
To me, using a proper keyboard with a laptop is the way to go, and I would use a tablet the same way.
Seeing the way Microsoft is going with Office (renting instead of selling) made me even happier to have switched to LibreOffice.OpenOffice/LibreOffice is fine if your requirements are low (i.e. the occasional letter, simple spreadsheets), but it's still so far behind even a ten year old MS Office 2003 that it's not even funny.
The keyboard is literally my most important criterion when I choose a laptop. If I can even imagine a very grumpy-mood version of myself having the slightest complaint, whine or worry about the keyboard, I do not buy the laptop.
I have a mac that sits in the closet.
one feature of the "crappy new piece of crap metro garbage disgusting interface" is the search function, just start typing and whatever you're looking for comes up, if you can get past the "ugly disgustingly huge moronic icons" that also pop up:
My hobby used to be PCs and upgrading them for fun. But as you said, it got unexciting because the machines are so capable it fell out of interest for me. I have an Athlon 6 core main PC I built probably 3 years ago and there is simply no reason to upgrade it.I used to do the same thing. Once I stopped playing videogames, there was not much reason to ever upgrade anymore. I ran an overclocked Athlon Thunderbird untiil about 3-4 years ago! Finally I upgraded so that I could run XP and some software/hardware that didn't work under 2000, and that is what I continue to use today. It doesn't take much horsepower to surf the web, use Office and Photoshop, play music.
So I moved on to model railroading ... :-//
When I got my dell laptop, I got a slightly oversized bag, and I always carry around a Bluetooth Dell (Logitech) keyboard and mouse. The bag has to be at least 44cm (17") wide. I have hardly used the laptop keyboard - perhaps I might need to use it once a month. The Dell Bluetooth keyboard and mouse actually works - unlike many other brands.my requirement is/was at least 23" monitor. basically a gigantic laptop with full sized keyboard. i dont need battery or keyboard attached to the monitor though, basically just a portable PC type that i can attach to power outlet anywhere. i still have this paradigm that any laptop/netbook no matter how big it is (13"?) is still less optimum for real work. using laptop with built in keyboard with external fullsize keyboard is kind of ackward, but thats just me, as i said i havent found such setup off-the-market. the closest is Lenovo et al, but lacking of carrying bag.
To me, using a proper keyboard with a laptop is the way to go, and I would use a tablet the same way.
Probably the same reason why the first thing they do on a new Windows XP installation is to restore the bland Windows 95 menu and color scheme.
I do that because it works better. I install classic shell on Win7 because it works better.
You whine on about people not being prepared to learn a new user interface
while the whole point of the start screen shit in Win8 (and why it can't be removed and the start menu is gone) is to force a new user interface on its captive desktop market so those people don't have to learn a new interface to use Microsoft's phones and fondleslabs.
Microsoft same old same old, fuck what customers want we will use whatever leverage we have to make them buy what we have to sell.
Face it you took (the interface formally known as) Metro up the arse and are telling us you like how it feels.
Because from an ergonomical point of view it's inferior to any modern UI.Exactly what is that supposed to mean?
No, the reason of this 'start screen shit' is to bring the UI into the 21st century and adapt to the way people are starting to use computers. Being stuck in the past you may have not realized it but the standard Windows desktop is crap when using on touchscreens (I know, I have used it). The new Metro GUI works with both touch devices and mouse/keyboard. It's certainly not perfect but it's a first step into the right direction.The way most people "use" computers is not necessarily the most efficient, nor do they really use much of the features of an OS, but that doesn't mean everything should be dumbed down for only them. Metro was designed for touchscreens, so it's definitely going to be good for them, but it's a step backwards for mouse/keyboard navigation. If you're implying that we should all switch to touchscreens, then that's even worse --- I move my mouse a tiny amount and I can get the cursor anywhere on 27" of monitor. I don't want to move my arm that much on a touchscreen, and I don't need to with a mouse. Touchscreens are horrible for serious work. If this is "21st century" then I'd rather stay in the past, because this is yet another example that newer is not always better.
As I said, I'm using Windows 8 for quite a while, and having to go back to Windows 7 or even XP (shudder!) just shows me how much better Windows 8 is. I'm not a fan of Metro, really not, but I don't let the fact that my Start menu is now full screen and that I have to move the mouse into the lower left corner instead of clicking on a button get in the way of benefitting from the many advances that are in Windows 8.What are these "many advances"? Have they increased the productivity of your workflow?
Again, it's perfectly fine to stay with your old OS. But it looks silly when someone complains that a new OS version doesn't cater for the people that are stuck in their old ways because they are too unflexible to change.It looks sillier when someone thinks needless breaking changes are good. We are "too unflexible to change" because these changes impact productivity. Maybe if you're an employee who wants to get paid more for doing less so these changes slowing you down can help...
My advice: don't throw out your old computers. Upgrade if you want, but keep the old machines in a cupboard or whatever.Agreed (not just from the e-waste perspective). I have systems where I have datasheets for everything on the motherboard and there is no DRM weirdness. Real serial and parallel ports too. The days when hardware does exactly what you want, and nothing more... have passed by. :(
No, the reason of this 'start screen shit' is to bring the UI into the 21st century and adapt to the way people are starting to use computers. Being stuck in the past you may have not realized it but the standard Windows desktop is crap when using on touchscreens (I know, I have used it). The new Metro GUI works with both touch devices and mouse/keyboard. It's certainly not perfect but it's a first step into the right direction.1) can you "navigate" metro menu faster with touch? compared to classic menu + mouse + keyboard? esp for large amount of items.
Since when was a Start button used for stopping the computer a good design idea anyway?
It looks sillier when someone thinks needless breaking changes are good. We are "too unflexible to change" because these changes impact productivity. Maybe if you're an employee who wants to get paid more for doing less so these changes slowing you down can help...
want the good design for stopping computer? that round (or square depending on the model) button at the front of your PC casing/panel. once upon a time you hit that, computer shut down in 0 sec, now it will take a while, i've set that button as hibernation for my PC, quite handy ;) to completely OFF the PC in W8 is not intuitive either :shrug infact more steps of nonsense (logout user, slide-tap-up panoramic-click symbol-shut down), and even the modern devices are back to that "hard" button usually found at the side of the device, but sadly its not 0 sec shutdown anymore (for some devices) and certainly not a "HARD OFF" :PSince when was a Start button used for stopping the computer a good design idea anyway?Since the usability tests MS did on the Win95 shell showed that's where people looked for the shutdown option (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/07/22/54559.aspx) ;)
... there are several third party applications that can "restore" the start button and menu structure, you can boot directly to the desktop and never even use the start "screen"
huge inefficient grid of giant tiles on the screenjust in case you havent noticed, FWIW... go to bottom right, there is minus sign. click that, the giant tiles will go tiny, but i'm not sure though how it works for hundreds of tiles since i'm not thinking to install all the softwares in it (just enough for the wifey to be happy) and tapping anywhere once will bring back to giant tiles. the bad thing is the minus sign is at the very edge of the screen even my small finger cannot reach, only by mouse. M$ should be smart enough to not to do that in the first place if "touch" is in their right mind.
huge inefficient grid of giant tiles on the screenjust in case you havent noticed, FWIW... go to bottom right, there is minus sign. click that, the giant tiles will go tiny, but i'm not sure though how it works for hundreds of tiles since i'm not thinking to install all the softwares in it (just enough for the wifey to be happy) and tapping anywhere once will bring back to giant tiles. the bad thing is the minus sign is at the very edge of the screen even my small finger cannot reach, only by mouse. M$ should be smart enough to not to do that in the first place if "touch" is in their right mind.