Author Topic: Windows is getting disgusting  (Read 161994 times)

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Online Cerebus

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #500 on: September 26, 2016, 12:00:15 pm »
I tried going on said Microsoft forums to help people I solved a few people's problems, but then some of the powers that be would ignore my perfectly good answer and send users on a wild goose chase. God forbid I once tried to get help I kept getting bounced around things I either already told them clearly that I had tried, or ridiculous solutions that are not related at all

"I have an SSD with no specific driver, the UEFI can boot it, and Linux is happy with it, but I can't for the life of me get windows 10 to even acknowledge It's existence. Just in case, I even ran a round of windows defender and malwarebytes."

"Have you tried the malicious software removal tool?"
 :rant:

Sounds more like a Turing test with the possible outcomes:

  • Microsoft Nazi Twitter chatbot
  • Trained monkey
  • Microsoft Accredited Technician

I'll grant that a couple of those are almost indistinguishable but the original Turing test was meant to differentiate quite subtle differences.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #501 on: September 26, 2016, 12:37:34 pm »
I tried going on said Microsoft forums to help people I solved a few people's problems, but then some of the powers that be would ignore my perfectly good answer and send users on a wild goose chase. God forbid I once tried to get help I kept getting bounced around things I either already told them clearly that I had tried, or ridiculous solutions that are not related at all

"I have an SSD with no specific driver, the UEFI can boot it, and Linux is happy with it, but I can't for the life of me get windows 10 to even acknowledge It's existence. Just in case, I even ran a round of windows defender and malwarebytes."

"Have you tried the malicious software removal tool?"
 :rant:

I agree, I had misplaced hope that Microsoft's own employees (or those they subcontract to) would have actually added value on their own community forums rather than just repeat the script of a 12yo to run a random flavour of the month adware removal tool.

The quality of software from Microsoft has definitely taken a dive. If I wanted to spend half my life wondering into and around a maze of deeper and deeper rabbit holes in an OS and ecosystem around it built on quicksand, I'd be running Linux as my preferred daily driver OS. Worse, Microsoft force their updates on you: at least you get a choice with Linux.

I very strongly suspect there is a correlation between Microsoft laying off of testing staff and the drop in quality of their software. Their model of using the Insider Program is misplaced as (a) participants will be unlikely to put the previews on bare metal, so drivers are not going to be properly tested if at all, (b) end users have little visibility of release notes so don't know what to target in testing and (c) the use case for almost all of those on an Insider Program is going to be a fresh install, not an upgrade, which is the use case for a very significant proportion of the real user community.

This is why, for example, stuff like webcams stopped working with Skype or OpenBroadcaster, very few knew of the change to functionality/implementation, or what the impact might have been.

I am spending longer and longer mending Windows nowadays, and frankly I now have quite a bit more sympathy and understanding for those who jump ship to Linux as their daily driver than I did a year or two ago.
 

Offline setq

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #502 on: September 26, 2016, 01:14:47 pm »
That's about it actually. Quality has declined. Not that there was any to start with but as a Windows user for about 24 years now it hasn't got any better. This increases friction and therefore drives up cost and removes hair, which I'm getting short of now. I like hair. It keeps my head warm in winter which is rapidly approaching.

As a 50/50 Linux/Windows guy, the friction is horrible on the windows side of things compared to Linux. Typical example of today's friction: Microsoft's download site is shitting a veritable brick every 5 minutes. So in this case, I've got to deploy build host machines via Ansible from Linux onto Windows. So we use Chocolatey which is a poorly conceived and implemented copy of a Linux package manager to bridge that awful gap in windows, because everything else is Linux. Don't even mention Powershell DSC which is a joke. To install the Windows 7.1 SDK, we tell ansible to tell windows to install it. This navigates an http based protocol (WinRM) to talk to the target windows machine, which fires up a CLR VM with powershell in it, which runs a whole stack of crap that fetches a file from microsoft download site, checksums it and runs an exe with some command line parameters. This in turn pukes out a few hundred MSI files on disk and proceeds to install them. An MSI file is a database with some files in it. Each of these fires up a windows service and talks to it via COM and proceeds to tell that to do things in a privileged execution mode. Eventually it dumps about 100,000 files on disk and screws the registry up for a bit. That is if the following conditions are satisfied: a) the person who maintains the chocolatey definition actually cares any more, b) they haven't issued an update which has screwed up WinRM again, c) microsoft haven't reorganised their download site again, d) various random problems caused by the sheer complexity of the above, e) it hasn't been rebooted since an automatic update we didn't ask for and has been turned off, f) if it errors, someone actually bothers to handle it as every single package installer does something different and surprising.

But alas, no, not today. We're greeted with a checksum failure because Microsoft's download site is just chopping off connections left right and center. This is fed back through the stack of the above as the following: "Error installing windows-sdk-7.1" which is returned as successful because every layer has different error handling semantics.

So off our software goes and builds on this fresh stack of poo and throws because it can't find the SDK dependencies.

So after deciphering logs galore, I hit the download site with firefox and the problem is apparent:



4.5 hours elapsed so far. Each attempt takes around 1 hour to complete when it does work. This is money down the pan. Lots of it. I'm quite expensive as is AWS kit that is sitting there doing diddly squat.

Compared to CentOS "yum groupinstall 'development tools'" and wait 2-3 minutes that works every time, thousands of times over, because of mirroring, engineering and sensible design.

And that's where the quality problems are.

The completely offensive bit is they spend so much money on marketing and being loud to try and drown out the house of cards their products exist on top of and people keep buying that because Ballmer has gone and Satya is the second coming so it's the new Microsoft. Nope. Same turd, different glitter.

I think the general end user, even power users aren't subject to the experience of having these sorts of friction problems being amplified many times over as well by having lots of windows infrastructure to look after. The complexity is O(n!)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 01:19:08 pm by setq »
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #503 on: September 26, 2016, 06:57:00 pm »
For me the quality went up through w2k but then started down with XP.  There were several things that worked in w2k that XP couldn't do reliably.  Thats what moved me to linux.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #504 on: September 26, 2016, 07:15:34 pm »
I miss win2k, it was my favourite OS.  It was clean looking, fast, fairly lightweight, and functional. It was also quite stable.  When XP came out it was a bloated buggy POS, it took several years and service packs before it became good and not far after that time MS was trying to get people off it.   7 is decent, but 8 and 10 are a joke.    We don't talk about Vista.
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #505 on: September 26, 2016, 09:13:33 pm »
Another thumbs up for w2k. Solid, and the first to support hot pluggable hardware. Almost everything since has been largely chrome polishing and irritatingly whifting around the furniture, like supermarkets move their aisles around.

Suffering Windows Server 2012 and 2012 r2 with the Modern UI is frankly pathetic, WTF Microsoft were thinking is beyond me. It's a server, it won't have a frikkin' touch screen. I noticed today the Server 2016 is out.

There are two types of users, content consumers and content creators. For content consumers, where surfing the web and writing the odd minimalist tweet and email, tablets and smart phones are well aligned. Content creators, though, use keyboards and mice and don't appreciate all that high DPI resolution screen real estate taken up with Duplo buttons. That means that trying to shoehorn two fundamentally different generalised use cases into one OS is likely to create a suboptimal compromise, and that pans out in the Windows 8/8.1/10/2012/2012r2 debacle.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #506 on: September 26, 2016, 09:46:30 pm »
NTFS Permissions.

Words fail me when I try to express how much I truly hate the very existence of this annoying garbage.

Access Denied
You don't have permission
Error. Could not change permissions.
Cannot delete. File is in use by another program.

All from a flash drive with "Everyone" having "Full control" and "Everyone" as the "Owner"

It's an obfuscated, convoluted mess full of contradictions and lies.

 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #507 on: September 26, 2016, 10:05:45 pm »
8.1, and 2012 r2, are quite usable. I can't say the same for 2012 or 8.0. Biggest problem with 2012 is when remoting in to servers, trying to get to exactly the right spot to activate the charms bar - it's bad enough with local control but with the lag introduced via remote control, forget it. 2012 R2, you don't have to do that.

XP was the first time I actually did an upgrade of a Windows OS instead of clean install. Started with Win2K Workstation on that machine. And the XP install (upgrade) worked perfectly as long as I continued to use that machine, never had to do a wipe and reinstall, or any of that silly business people constantly say you need to do with Windows - I've never done that with ANY version of Windows in all the years I've used Windows.

 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #508 on: September 26, 2016, 10:35:11 pm »
NTFS Permissions.

Words fail me when I try to express how much I truly hate the very existence of this annoying garbage.

Access Denied
You don't have permission
Error. Could not change permissions.
Cannot delete. File is in use by another program.

All from a flash drive with "Everyone" having "Full control" and "Everyone" as the "Owner"

It's an obfuscated, convoluted mess full of contradictions and lies.

Honestly that is one of the few things I actually HATE in Linux that I prefer in Windows, the unix file permission system is a POS.  Want to have multiple groups of users with different levels of access to the same folder, want a streamlined set of inheritable permissions so if one user creates a folder/file all the other users have the proper access?  That's not happening in Linux without jumping through some hoops.  There is ACLs, but that's not native, so half the time it won't be supported/installed/enabled etc. So can't rely on that.

A well managed NTFS file structure can be a dream to manage - well managed is key word, it can be a mess too.  The key is to NOT assign users directly to folders, but groups, and avoid breaking inheritance (you don't even GET inheritance in Linux).
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #509 on: September 26, 2016, 11:20:04 pm »
(you don't even GET inheritance in Linux).

.. yes, yes you do. That's what setgid is for, and ACLs can have inheritance.

Unix permissions and ACLs are quite powerful, they're just not clicky easy.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 11:21:47 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline setq

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #510 on: September 27, 2016, 06:00:57 am »
There's SELinux as well which is very nice when you take the time to understand it.
 

Offline helius

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #511 on: September 27, 2016, 06:20:43 am »
 

Offline Faith

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #512 on: September 27, 2016, 06:33:50 am »
There's SELinux as well which is very nice when you take the time to understand it.

Amen to that. SELinux is such an absolute blessing and charm to use that it saddens me that so many users (and admins of Linux server deployments especially) choose "setenforce 0" as a solution to any SELinux-related problem rather than to try understand what SELinux is for and what it can accomplish for operating system security.

And while it can seem extremely daunting to some to write their own SELinux rule modules it really isn't that complicated. And it can be quite enlightening too!

Not to mention there are many scenarios where using SELinux to limit what resource an application can access is more desirable than using a sandbox or virtual machine. It pains me whenever I'm using Windows and I cannot say "I do not want some.exe to be able to write to some folder or read some other folder" and et cetera.

And it goes far beyond that. You can use SELinux to manage very specific permissions for almost any kind of resource (file system, network, process, and so on).
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Offline setq

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #513 on: September 27, 2016, 07:47:27 am »
Exactly. Our windows only guys seem to fire up a windows VM in Hyper-V every time they need process isolation. It sucks and is expensive. Hopefully windows 2016 containers will make that less horrible.

There's also LXC if you need full logical domain isolation in Linux.
 

Offline Faith

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #514 on: September 27, 2016, 09:09:13 am »
The problem with Windows 2016 is that it requires Windows 10 to manage remotely. And with Microsoft's whole "Windows Server installations should be Core and ALL administration should be via remote MMC" nonsense that becomes a little bit of a problem if you're still on Windows 7 or 8.

And let's not pretend that PowerShell can accomplish 100% of what we need 100% of the time. It doesn't.

Don't get me wrong though, I always run my Linux Servers without ANY GUI component installed. I prefer CLI over GUI for almost anything with a server-ish role. The problem with Windows is that it was not designed with CLI-only use in mind as with Linux or Cisco IOS. Hence why it's called... Windows.

And Windows 10 can go to hell until such time it lets me control what updates and what drivers I want on my PC.

PowerShell definitely has its pros and especially with WMI et al it's wonderful how easy it is to pipe arrays of data from one location to another while filtering said data on the fly. But all that comes crashing down rather quick once you encounter a service which is missing one specific option in PS.

Especially when that happens with a Windows-standard service. And the length of some PS cmdlets can be annoying too. Eep.
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Offline setq

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #515 on: September 27, 2016, 09:34:22 am »
True. Powershell is a turd as well as the abstraction is broken.

I just spent 30 minutes this morning in powershell writing a script to append a variable to the system path. So first attempt I tried env Path, but no user scoped. So second attempt, I tried the stuff in [Environment]. No banana - it expands paths so I can't update them afterwards. It's all either behind COM, some clever magic or an API somewhere. So eventually I found it in the registry and wrote this:

Code: [Select]
[Microsoft.Win32.Registry]::LocalMachine.OpenSubKey('SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Environment', $true)
$sysPath = $key.GetValue('Path', $null, 'DoNotExpandEnvironmentNames');
write-host "$sysPath"
foreach($path in $paths) {
    if ($sysPath -like "*$path*") {
        continue;
    }
    $sysPath = $sysPath + ";" + $path;
}
$key.SetValue('Path', $sysPath, 'ExpandString');
$key.Dispose();

Compare to Linux

Code: [Select]
echo "PATH=$PATH:/whatever" >> /etc/profile.d/add-x-to-path
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #516 on: September 27, 2016, 10:22:21 am »
Quote
the quality went up through w2k but then started down with XP.

W2k and W2k3 are both very small and don't load the CPU much.

XP is also quite good in that regard. The downside is that the 64-bit version is hard to come by. I think for small applications, XP is the best of them all.

Win7 has a good 64-bit system that can run on large machines. It is a little bloated and drains more cpu resources. A good compromise in my view between performance / capabilities. To me, it is a good OS for most users. More overhead than XP but gives the user more optionality / upgradability as well.

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https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #517 on: September 27, 2016, 11:55:00 am »
"I very strongly suspect there is a correlation between Microsoft laying off of testing staff and the drop in quality of their software"

I think if you ask MS workers they know precisely what caused such a downturn - just watch the mix of employees and managers and see who get promoted over the last 10 or 15 years.

But it is politically incorrect to say it outlaud.
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Offline rrinker

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #518 on: September 27, 2016, 05:23:29 pm »
 I also suggest some people play around soem more with Powershell, using either the supplied dev environment or the free Quest PowerGUI tool.

 I have PowerShell scripts that synchronize users and  passwords between to otherwise unconnected AD domains - complex enough for you?  I've written others like the one that pulls AD attributes and converts and uploads it to a card access system (keycards for doors, etc).

 My biggest complain with Powershell is that there was no Control-C/Control-V for copy/paste. To have to take your hands off the keyboard to sue the mouse was utterly stupid, and whatever person at Microsoft who decided that should be forced to update 99K row spreadsheets all day every day but they cannot use the arrows to change to the next cell, they must click with the mouse. Luckily this is resolved in Windows 10, ctrl-c and ctrl-v are back and it makes life SO much easier.

 Only other complaint I have is just because I am a horrible typist - and the Powershell commands are just ridiculously long in many cases. Yes, there is tab complete, which helps in many cases, but still. They've carried it over to other command line items as well - prior to Exchange 2016, you could run various install tasks from the command prompt, no big deal. With 2016, when you do this, you must ALSO type out, IN FULL "-iacceptexchangeserverlicenseterms" or the setup will abort. I guess people were trying to use this as a loophole since they were not presented with the box to check as you are with the GUI setup, therefore I guess you can say you never agreed to anything.


 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #519 on: September 30, 2016, 08:00:23 am »
I occasionally dabble in Powershell, and it is very powerful, but frankly getting your head around it conceptually enough to be able to be reasonably proficient at writing your own scripts, particularly from scratch, is an uphill struggle.

It is very powerful, and have frankensteined some really useful scripts together myself, but I don't really know what I'm doing with it.

Biggest problem I find in a real enterprise environments is that they're generally so locked down, it's generally impossible to run centralised scripts across the estate, which is precisely where powershell should come into its own.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #520 on: September 30, 2016, 08:05:43 am »
In terms of speed and code efficiency, Win10 should be faster than Win7.
The only thing I do not like is its forced update, but spying is not may major concern. As long as CEOs and gov't leaders are all using it, why the hell they want to spy on me?
Targeted marketing? Well, I do not care. I would like Google and Amazon to know exactly what I would like to buy.
Now everyday AdWorks tells me the latest devices from TI, it saved me lots of time going through newsletter to know that TI is doing.
 

Offline fubar.gr

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #521 on: January 26, 2017, 06:59:09 pm »
Windows popped a warning that it was going to restart in 30 minutes.

The only options available were Restart Now and OK. Since I had a video rendering going on for the previous 3 hours and needed at least 2 hours more to finish, I clicked OK. I thought I could cancel the scheduled restart by typing shutdown /a in the command line.

But apparently it was a different type of scheduled restart and it was unaffected by the shutdown command!

I was frantically searching the internet for a way to cancel the restart, but to no avail!

Then I thought the Windows programming team cannot be that stupid, there will be another prompt to postpone or cancel the restart when the time expires.

Apparently they are that stupid. There was no prompt, as the 30 minute mark passed I was instantly hit with the pale blue restart screen!

W T F !!!!!

Now my rendering is gone and I have to Redo from Start. Not such a big deal, I will do it on my other computer which is much faster.

But what if this was a mission critical computer that should never be turned off? Like hospital life support system of something?

And if I understand correctly, unless you disable updates entirely, it is not possible to avoid those automatic restarts. At least Windows 7 had a 4 hour postpone button that you could keep pressing indefinitely.

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #522 on: January 26, 2017, 07:30:18 pm »
Windows popped a warning that it was going to restart in 30 minutes.

...

Then I thought the Windows programming team cannot be that stupid, there will be another prompt to postpone or cancel the restart when the time expires.

Apparently they are that stupid. There was no prompt, as the 30 minute mark passed I was instantly hit with the pale blue restart screen!

W T F !!!!!
...

LOL man, you are so picky!
 :-DD

There are other incredible features included in the Windows 10 OS that deserves all the imaginable WTFs ever. One of them is the keylogger that is embedded in Win10. Not kidding, Microsoft put it there, just google for it.

Returning to the annoying restart problem, my workaround is to always keep the updates disabled, and enable the updates only when I decide to manually update. To do that I am running these 2 scripts as Administrator:

- Run 'Update Enable.cmd' as Administrator
- Manually update and restart after updates are installed
- After restart, run 'Update Disable.cmd' as administrator

'Update Enable.cmd' script
Code: [Select]
@echo off

whoami /groups | findstr /c:" S-1-5-32-544 " | findstr /c:" Enabled group" && goto :isadministrator
echo ERROR - nothing done. This script MUST be run as administrator.
echo.
pause
exit

:isadministrator
REM enable then start Windows Update service "wuauserv"
sc config wuauserv start=demand
sc start wuauserv
REM open Windows Update GUI
start ms-settings:windowsupdate
echo.
echo !!! To start a Windows Update, press the "Check for updates" button.
echo !!! After the update, don't forget to run "Update Disable.cmd" as administrator.
echo.
echo This window can be closed now.
pause


'Update Disable.cmd' script
Code: [Select]
@echo off

whoami /groups | findstr /c:" S-1-5-32-544 " | findstr /c:" Enabled group" && goto :isadministrator
echo ERROR - nothing done. This script MUST be run as administrator.
echo.
pause
exit

:isadministrator
REM stop then disable Windows Update service "wuauserv"
sc stop wuauserv
sc config wuauserv start=disabled
echo.
pause

Offline rrinker

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #523 on: January 26, 2017, 07:35:30 pm »
 Several workable solutions in this thread:

http://superuser.com/questions/957267/how-to-disable-automatic-reboots-in-windows-10

The one about disabling the Reboot task in task scheduler even likely would have stopped the forced reboot that was about to happen.



 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #524 on: January 26, 2017, 07:49:48 pm »
Oh, I forgot to tell that is not the programmers fault at all for all the annoyances of this type.
In my opinion, it's a decision way above the programmer's heads. The programmers must obey to these kind of enforcing.

Other fact less known is how the user can not block some IP addresses because they are hardcoded inside dlls, so it's not so easy to stop Win10 calling home, or how Win10 blocks some web addresses no matter what, disregarding the user's or administrator's settings.

I also love how after each update, most of my custom settings are restored to their unwanted default state. Isn't that wonderful?
 ^-^
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:55:31 pm by RoGeorge »
 


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