Author Topic: Windows is getting disgusting  (Read 159342 times)

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Offline senso

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #675 on: February 12, 2017, 03:10:10 am »
Problem is the user, I have 4 laptops for work and personal use(one on my bed to watch series, a gaming laptop tethered to a display, mouse, headset, keyboard, a work-related one and my old work laptop), none as suffered a BSOD in years...

None of them is super recent(3 of them are i7-4700 based), all four have SSD's(ranging from 128 to 480GB), the gaming laptop as currently 1GB of games, plus Solidworks, Autodesk Fusion, Eagle, Visual Studio, phyton something, and a lot of other small crap.

ZERO BSOD's, none is running anything else than MS anti-virus with the monthly or 2 month Malwarebytes scan, I only use Chrome because all my laptops have 16GB-32GB RAM, Chrome is always running with Ghostery, ADP,AD, uBlock, h.264ify, RES and https everywhere.

I dont have problems with virus, nor malware, nor trojans, nor anything like that, I can understand how people get their systems full of crap and get lots of BSOD's due to shitty Toshiba hdd's in laptops, besides that, you must be toying around with shit like Driver Booster because downloading legit drivers is hard, and crap like system cleaners and optimizers that like to dip their toes in the Registry because it makes the OS faster...

I have used linux for years as well, today, only in a VM, not much need about it, and when every reboot it wants another 300MB of updates I got feedup pretty fast..
 

Offline avrishuvorlaz

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #676 on: February 12, 2017, 03:15:39 am »
Problem is the user, I have 4 laptops for work and personal use(one on my bed to watch series, a gaming laptop tethered to a display, mouse, headset, keyboard, a work-related one and my old work laptop), none as suffered a BSOD in years...

None of them is super recent(3 of them are i7-4700 based), all four have SSD's(ranging from 128 to 480GB), the gaming laptop as currently 1GB of games, plus Solidworks, Autodesk Fusion, Eagle, Visual Studio, phyton something, and a lot of other small crap.

ZERO BSOD's, none is running anything else than MS anti-virus with the monthly or 2 month Malwarebytes scan, I only use Chrome because all my laptops have 16GB-32GB RAM, Chrome is always running with Ghostery, ADP,AD, uBlock, h.264ify, RES and https everywhere.

I dont have problems with virus, nor malware, nor trojans, nor anything like that, I can understand how people get their systems full of crap and get lots of BSOD's due to shitty Toshiba hdd's in laptops, besides that, you must be toying around with shit like Driver Booster because downloading legit drivers is hard, and crap like system cleaners and optimizers that like to dip their toes in the Registry because it makes the OS faster...

I have used linux for years as well, today, only in a VM, not much need about it, and when every reboot it wants another 300MB of updates I got feedup pretty fast..

You talk about 300MB as if it's a lot of data... that's the 2017 equivalent of 30Kb.
 

Offline senso

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #677 on: February 12, 2017, 03:31:34 am »
Welcome to living part of the week in a village with 2Mb's of download(thank you ADSL), and when I used ubuntu/mint/arch THAT is a lot of data to be downloaded everyday..

Currently in that place I have 4G(limited to 20Mb down, 10Mb up, no data caps), the rest of the week I have fiber(but its just 120Mb down, but more than enough for me).
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #678 on: February 12, 2017, 06:33:30 am »
While I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where broadband is pretty much standard, I think a lot of tech workers exist in a bubble utterly unaware that there are hundreds of thousands of people even in first world developed nations who do not have access to broadband. Many thousands of people still use dialup just like we did in the 90s, it hasn't changed much. If you don't have access to broadband, 300MB is as big a download now as it was 20 years ago.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #679 on: February 12, 2017, 01:48:15 pm »
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
Despite your assertive is correct on both accounts, Windows 3.11 had huge holes in HW management and multitasking (the then called cooperative multitasking). Applications brought a system down by holding on to the CPU without yielding to the kernel, either because they simply crashed or because they were waiting on a HW resource.
Macs, as you said, were simply too reckless with memory and the lack of true multitasking never allowed a fair comparison with Windows - it was always a heavy conjecture a Mac system outperformed Windows until they migrated to Intel processors. By then, it was evident the claims of higher performance were only marginal and the only tangible benefit was a much more streamlined integration with hardware and ease of use.
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Offline CraigHB

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #680 on: February 12, 2017, 05:08:02 pm »
Surprised Windows 3.11 is even coming up in this discussion.  For me it was a really poor product, constant crashes.  Windows XP was the most stable MS product I've run.  It could give Linux a run for the money.  It was even more stable than the Win7 installation I'm on currently.  Don't know if I got lucky with just the right hardware or what, but I tend to think it was more a design thing, XP was just done right.

For me it's not as much a matter of the platform as it is the software I can run on it.  Mac, Linux, Windows, it's all just the foundation to house the software.  From my own experience, Windows seems to be the ubiquitous platform for software.  If developers wanted to they could hoist Linux or Mac up to the same standing, but they don't do it.  There's a good amount of software that's just not available for anything but Windows.

If you don't mind running various platforms it's not so much a problem.  For me, I want one machine and one installation to handle all my needs, not a bunch of devices or virtual machines crowding up my life.  In that case I'm pretty much stuck with Windows.  Software makers always develop for Windows first then ports to Mac and Linux seem to be an afterthought.  If that changes I'll have zero issue with running something else.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:17:25 pm by CraigHB »
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #681 on: February 12, 2017, 05:36:57 pm »
Surprised Windows 3.11 is even coming up in this discussion.  For me it was a really poor product, constant crashes.  Windows XP was the most stable MS product I've run.  It could give Linux a run for the money.  It was even more stable than the Win7 installation I'm on currently.  Don't know if I got lucky with just the right hardware or what, but I tend to think it was more a design thing, XP was just done right.

For me it's not as much a matter of the platform as it is the software I can run on it.  Mac, Linux, Windows, it's all just the foundation to house the software.  From my own experience, Windows seems to be the ubiquitous platform for software.  If developers wanted to they could hoist Linux or Mac up to the same standing, but they don't do it.  There's a good amount of software that's just not available for anything but Windows.

If you don't mind running various platforms it's not so much a problem.  For me, I want one machine and one installation to handle all my needs, not a bunch of devices or virtual machines crowding up my life.  In that case I'm pretty much stuck with Windows.  Software makers always develop for Windows first then ports to Mac and Linux seem to be an afterthought.  If that changes I'll have zero issue with running something else.

I agree in general, but not in detail.  There have been superior programs in both the Mac and Linux world that either never became available in Windows, or have been slow to develop and poorly supported.  But if you have to have a single platform with the widest availability of software, Windows is definitely it.
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #682 on: February 12, 2017, 05:41:50 pm »
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
Despite your assertive is correct on both accounts, Windows 3.11 had huge holes in HW management and multitasking (the then called cooperative multitasking). Applications brought a system down by holding on to the CPU without yielding to the kernel, either because they simply crashed or because they were waiting on a HW resource.
Macs, as you said, were simply too reckless with memory and the lack of true multitasking never allowed a fair comparison with Windows - it was always a heavy conjecture a Mac system outperformed Windows until they migrated to Intel processors. By then, it was evident the claims of higher performance were only marginal and the only tangible benefit was a much more streamlined integration with hardware and ease of use.

I think rsjsouza is understanding what I meant, the rest of you have just stuck on the OS itself. I talk about the whole system. Mac was more superior in the days of PowerPC just like the Amiga was superior to any computer during that time. Today there's no difference between a Mac and a Windows PC, buy either one and you get same crap, just with different software.
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #683 on: February 12, 2017, 05:54:02 pm »

But when it comes to quality software, Windows and OS X are far more superior.


Quality software?  Like Excel which has turned a couple of my big projects into .tmp files?  Sharepoint which has lost documents?  .NET which still brings servers to their knees?  Server 2003 bugs which microsoft closes your case with a workaround instead of a fix?

I have to use windows at work and I've had these issues.

You must be having some user error/configuration issues. Something is not configured right. Maybe security is not good enough and you got hacked. I have never ever had any issues with Office, Sharepoint, Windows Server, or any Microsoft products for that matter ever since Windows 1.0 was released. Nor have I had any issues with any Linux, Amiga or Mac box either.

It is funny that people keep finding problems in products when the problem most of the time is the user. :-D

EDIT: I am currently running Windows 10 Beta software, and have no issues what so ever. Only 3 builds were bad for my hardware, the rest has been running more or less without glitches.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:56:43 pm by slicendice »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #684 on: February 12, 2017, 06:56:42 pm »
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
A rouge program could still easily cause the Windows 3.11 to crash though because it allowed ordinary programs direct access to much of the hardware.
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #685 on: February 12, 2017, 07:35:47 pm »
I think rsjsouza is understanding what I meant, the rest of you have just stuck on the OS itself. I talk about the whole system. Mac was more superior in the days of PowerPC just like the Amiga was superior to any computer during that time. Today there's no difference between a Mac and a Windows PC, buy either one and you get same crap, just with different software.
Was it? The PowerPC cpus were a joke. The blasted things easily doubled as space heaters. Performance per watts was a decade behind Intel, heck even AMD would have wiped the floor with them on that, and that's saying something.

It's popular to bash the x86/PC architecture because it "grew organically" and has a lot of "legacy crap", but ultimately, it's come a very long way, and I really don't see any objective (ie. non-aesthetic) argument why it would be inferior to anything else. I'm one of the idiots that bought into this with Amiga, with ia64, with second Jobs-era Macs, but ultimately I realized all this is just hipster snobbery, nothing else.

The thing that made makes Apple computers "superior" is the build quality. They aren't "the best", but they are really good, and that's probably enough. The first time I've seen the mainboard of an iMac, I threw a backflip; the board layout was a literal work of art. It was beautiful - not just the emergent beauty of something well-made, but conscious, "let's make this look as good as it works", "put in the extra effort" beautiful, like a little cityscape built of capacitors, resistors and ICs.

It was never an outdated and overhyped processor architecture that gave Macs their flavor. It was just something to wave around, like kids back in the day shouting in the playground about whose games console has "more bits".
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #686 on: February 12, 2017, 07:39:41 pm »
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down
:-DD If I had a pound for every time I ended up staring at a blue screen on a machine running 3.11 I would be considerably richer. Heck, I had days it wouldn't finish booting and would blue screen just connecting to LAN Manager shares.
Ofcourse you need to have a good PC to begin with. 99.9% of Windows stability problems come from cheap crap hardware. In all fairness you have to realise there is not much MS can do about that (and this is probably the reason Apple is so hell bound on running their software on their hardware only). However on good hardware a misbehaving program triggers an exception and only the data in that program is lost. I've seen enough problems on the old (pre x86) MACs where a misbehaving program takes the entire machine down and you'll lose all the data you didn't save.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #687 on: February 12, 2017, 07:47:01 pm »
That seems to be the case, a lot of FUD about computer security.  The only times I've had any problems personally was from landing on hostile web sites when I was running IE up until a few years ago.  The browser seems to be the entry point for malware you really have to be concerned about.  After I went to a more secure browser with a good IP filter (Chrome with uBlock Origin), I haven't had more any trouble. 

I think MS likes to motivate people by using FUD about computer security.  It's really just a marketing ploy.  There's probably some improvement in security from one OS to the next, but I don't think it's enough to warrant running out to buy the next version as soon as it releases.  In fact there may be security issues with a new version because unknown issues may exist.  I'd be surprised if someone can genuinely show a difference in security between win7 and win10.  As for winXP its only failing in my mind is that it's no longer supported.  I think it was the best product MS ever made.
Whether the lack of security updates is an issue or not is entirely dependent of the user and what the machine is used for. And users who need to reinstall Windows every few months are not prepared to run a system with dozens of well-known unfixed vulnerabilities.

Yes, the most obvious vector of attack on a desktop is the web browser. Not the only one. You need to actively lock down the whole system, disable all the file sharing and network discovery capability, disarm the ipv6 tunneling stack, the whole activation / "E.T. phone home" component, all the little convenience utilities that have some kind of network footprint... even when you have every service shut down, all incoming ports blocked, there is the chance that someone finds an exploit in the TCP/IP stack, in which case if you log onto wifi in a coffee shop, and someone there has "brand new malware no. 699" running on their machine, which happens to contain this exploit, well, welcome to the zombie DDoS army of the Russian Federation.

Security is not what it used to be when you learned computers on MS DOS or CP/M or whatever.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #688 on: February 12, 2017, 08:15:41 pm »
The thing that made makes Apple computers "superior" is the build quality. They aren't "the best", but they are really good, and that's probably enough. The first time I've seen the mainboard of an iMac, I threw a backflip; the board layout was a literal work of art

The boards are a work of art for sure esthetically... but don't speak too loud about "build quality" to all those who had graphics card failures on their Macbooks, display and battery failures on iPhones etc.
The fact they have a small catalog casues issues to plague a parge portion of their offering. They're pretty good at taming down the reports though.
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #689 on: February 12, 2017, 09:13:48 pm »
The boards are a work of art for sure esthetically... but don't speak too loud about "build quality" to all those who had graphics card failures on their Macbooks, display and battery failures on iPhones etc.
The fact they have a small catalog casues issues to plague a parge portion of their offering. They're pretty good at taming down the reports though.
If by "taming down the reports", you mean "immediately replacing the defective product while apologizing", then sure... :) Sure I've also heard of the horror stories - but neither I, nor anyone else I know or anyone the people I know know has ever actually experienced anything like that.

Anyway, defects, and even customer service mistakes are simply inevitable in tech, especially when a company is as big as Apple... and getting people citing up every tiny mistake as a world-ending debacle is inevitable if a company has as many haters as Apple...

And I used to build my own PCs in the 90s and early 2000s, and reliability meant something completely different then... Not "one in a hundred thousand iPhones experience inexplicable battery failure", rather "generic VGA card refuses to work in generic motherboard regardless of nominal compatibility... let's try another VESA slot... wow now it's booting, let's sacrifice that black rooster quickly".
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 09:16:03 pm by Sigmoid »
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #690 on: February 12, 2017, 09:46:55 pm »
... but don't speak too loud about "build quality" to all those who had graphics card failures on their Macbooks, display and battery failures on iPhones etc.

Plenty of people other than Apple had problems with fine pitch BGA chips (the cause of the video processor failures) when they were first being used in mass produced hardware, Xbox for instance.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #691 on: February 12, 2017, 09:49:35 pm »
Apple seem to have an interesting concept in thermal management. Until today, I've been using i7 quad core Mac Minis as my daily desktop drivers for four or five years, but run them in Windows natively 99% of the time. The hardware has been totally reliable, but wow do they run hot.

A few months ago I noticed on one of them the fan was blowing hard 24x7 so assumed it needed a clean out. In the end it turned out to be a crap bit of software, but since then I regularly monitored the temps. It turns out these machines routinely run into thermal throttling as a matter of course, by design. This happens at 100C. While I never saw any bad effects, it left me with an uneasy feeling.

This, together with the fact that Apple don't offer i7 quad cores anymore, plus that there are no upgrade paths anymore, I've now gone back to building my own machines, after about seven years of buying off the shelf. They're not quite as neat, but upgrade opportunities are far better.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #692 on: February 12, 2017, 09:51:42 pm »
I worked for a reseller in the GEM market (Government, Education, Military).  We could sell 100 Dell/HP/etc business machines and have 1-2 problems.  We'd sell 10 Apples and have 1-2 problems.  I had one customer when I'd go to their site he would tell me how much better Apples were than anything else.  His fancy Apple was shipped back to Apple 6 times in two years for warranty work yet he continued to sing their praise.  Thats why they get rated so much higher than what they really are in all the surveys.
Then you look at each year someone has a big recall.  One year its Sony, another HP, another Dell.  Apple had a recall every year.  So one year its Sony and Apple for batteries.  They next year its HP and Apple for video cards, the next year its Dell and Apple for power supplies.

Thats not even getting started on the legal games, copy Palm's swipe and then sue everyone else who copied palm's.
 
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Offline Kilrah

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #693 on: February 12, 2017, 10:02:33 pm »
Apple seem to have an interesting concept in thermal management. Until today, I've been using i7 quad core Mac Minis as my daily desktop drivers for four or five years, but run them in Windows natively 99% of the time. The hardware has been totally reliable, but wow do they run hot.

My experience is that they pretty heavily rely on their fine tweaking of power usage, dynamic clock settings etc in OSX that causes a machine running on light/normal loads to be significantly more power-efficient. Once you load Windows none of that anymore, it just runs with very basic and unoptimized defaults.
On a Macbook you'll typically have half he battery life on Windows than on OSX, so that's that amount of heat that isn't released on OSX, most likely same on their desktop siblings.

And yes Apple seem to often design throttling as being normal when running at full load extensively unfortunately... gotta squeeze tht extra mm of design thinness whatever the cost :(
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #694 on: February 12, 2017, 10:24:18 pm »
Windows is inefficient.  Any system I've ever setup as a dual boot, windows runs the cpu hotter then whatever Linux distro I was dual booting.
 

Offline avrishuvorlaz

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #695 on: February 12, 2017, 11:30:25 pm »
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
A rouge program could still easily cause the Windows 3.11 to crash though because it allowed ordinary programs direct access to much of the hardware.

A RED program?



 ;)
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #696 on: February 13, 2017, 02:22:48 am »
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
Despite your assertive is correct on both accounts, Windows 3.11 had huge holes in HW management and multitasking (the then called cooperative multitasking). Applications brought a system down by holding on to the CPU without yielding to the kernel, either because they simply crashed or because they were waiting on a HW resource.
Macs, as you said, were simply too reckless with memory and the lack of true multitasking never allowed a fair comparison with Windows - it was always a heavy conjecture a Mac system outperformed Windows until they migrated to Intel processors. By then, it was evident the claims of higher performance were only marginal and the only tangible benefit was a much more streamlined integration with hardware and ease of use.

I think rsjsouza is understanding what I meant, the rest of you have just stuck on the OS itself. I talk about the whole system. Mac was more superior in the days of PowerPC just like the Amiga was superior to any computer during that time. Today there's no difference between a Mac and a Windows PC, buy either one and you get same crap, just with different software.
A few months ago I got for free a Mac Mini from 2007 and it is running on my desk. I can tell its integration with Bluetooth and Wireless LAN was years ahead XP and its quirky settings (especially Bluetooth). It is also quite snappy given its age, although it runs terribly hot. Therefore the perception is probably triggered by the fact that Microsoft simply caught up and cleared most of the horrible quirks of its pre-7 releases. 

That said, I wouldn't go as far as saying that Mac was superior in all aspects to a PC at that time - the convergence came earlier than the processor migration itself, most probably due to economies of scale, which evidenced the aging of the architecture. Early PPC Macintosh systems came standard with a faster disk subsystem (SCSI) and a series of dedicated slots for specific functions, which brought clear superiority for audio and graphics, while most PCs had the slower ATA, the beeper and the more standard ISA bus. During the 1990s this gap was severely reduced by the adoption of a faster bus (the short-lived Vesa and later PCI) together with the inclusion of sound and accelerated 2D (and later 3D) graphics cards. The Power Macintosh removed the SCSI drive, while the iMac G3 added support for USB in favor of firewire and the only breakthrough feature was to remove the floppy disk.
With all this, the PPC was clearly lagging behind x86 in clock speed as well. With Pentium III reaching 1GHz 2~3 years earlier than the G5, it started to become evident Apple was cornered.

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Offline timb

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Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #697 on: February 13, 2017, 03:37:25 am »
Yeah if you're going to get a mac, which is closed and proprietary like Windows, may as well just go Linux, you'll run into the same set of compatibility issues but at least it's an open platform backed by a large community that will run on commodity hardware.  A mac is a closed black box more or less.

Yeah, it's not like macOS is based on a completely open source components or anything... Oh, wait... Plus the hardware is totally proprietary, I mean, it's not like it's build on commodity Intel hardware or anything... Oh, wait...

With macOS, I can run pretty much any software that runs on Linux (including X11 stuff) plus thousands of Mac specific apps, all in a very nice GUI *and* I can do it all without having to spend weeks digging through config files to make it work!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 03:40:27 am by timb »
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Offline BradC

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #698 on: February 13, 2017, 03:52:49 am »
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

I use all 3 becuase there is no right tool for every job. Additionally, if all you have is a hammer, every fastener begins to look like a nail.

I predominantly use Linux on the desktop/laptop, with Windows in VMs. Occassionally where warranted I boot into OSX. I choose to use Macs for my Desktop/Laptop hardware. I always enjoy the constant fanboy hate directed at users of "insert whatever hardware/software" here as if they know what does and doesn't work for me or what I value in my hardware. Always a waste of time, but a great indicator of the quality of the person on the end of the keyboard.

Use whatever works best for you. I use what works best for me.

Back on topic, yes I'm not a fan of what Microsoft has become. Having said that, the apparent nastiness has always been boiling below the surface. They just needed other companies to show them how little the average person values their privacy before they had the balls to go and do it themselves.
 
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Offline avrishuvorlaz

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #699 on: February 13, 2017, 03:55:40 am »
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

I use all 3 becuase there is no right tool for every job. Additionally, if all you have is a hammer, every fastener begins to look like a nail.

I predominantly use Linux on the desktop/laptop, with Windows in VMs. Occassionally where warranted I boot into OSX. I choose to use Macs for my Desktop/Laptop hardware. I always enjoy the constant fanboy hate directed at users of "insert whatever hardware/software" here as if they know what does and doesn't work for me or what I value in my hardware. Always a waste of time, but a great indicator of the quality of the person on the end of the keyboard.

Use whatever works best for you. I use what works best for me.

Back on topic, yes I'm not a fan of what Microsoft has become. Having said that, the apparent nastiness has always been boiling below the surface. They just needed other companies to show them how little the average person values their privacy before they had the balls to go and do it themselves.

"I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" p*****g contests."

For intelligent engineers, these people can be awfully stupid at times. It's like saying "my screwdriver is better than your hammer"


-_-
 


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