Author Topic: Windows is getting disgusting  (Read 159405 times)

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Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #700 on: February 13, 2017, 07:37:31 am »
That said, I wouldn't go as far as saying that Mac was superior in all aspects to a PC at that time - the convergence came earlier than the processor migration itself, most probably due to economies of scale, which evidenced the aging of the architecture. Early PPC Macintosh systems came standard with a faster disk subsystem (SCSI) and a series of dedicated slots for specific functions, which brought clear superiority for audio and graphics, while most PCs had the slower ATA, the beeper and the more standard ISA bus. During the 1990s this gap was severely reduced by the adoption of a faster bus (the short-lived Vesa and later PCI) together with the inclusion of sound and accelerated 2D (and later 3D) graphics cards. The Power Macintosh removed the SCSI drive, while the iMac G3 added support for USB in favor of firewire and the only breakthrough feature was to remove the floppy disk.
With all this, the PPC was clearly lagging behind x86 in clock speed as well. With Pentium III reaching 1GHz 2~3 years earlier than the G5, it started to become evident Apple was cornered.

Exactly! But one can not make a direct connection between overall performance and clockspeed when comparing a x86, with PPC or even ARM. There is so much more to it than just how many clock cycles a CPU can make within a second.

The best hardware, software and software tech has disappeared from the markets because of company mistakes and bad marketing. If the best stuff would have survived the 80s and 90s our computers including the software would look very different compared to what we have today. It's a shame so much great stuff is gone, or never got the support it deserved.

Microsoft has always been a good copycat and excellent at marketing, that is why they survived. In the early days they had nothing that was of their own creation. Everything was more or less copied or bought. Today it's a bit different, though they still buy good companies with great software and ruin the original software architecture when they try to add MS specific features into them.

I must admit that while MS software is quite good, it still has a lot of room for improvement, including latest Windows (which is the original topic here).
 

Offline timb

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #701 on: February 13, 2017, 12:22:36 pm »
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

If that's directed at me, I wasn't saying macOS was better than anything else, just refuting the statement it's completely closed.

I setup and managed servers professionally for over ten years, so by no means do I dislike Linux (though personally I preferred FreeBSD).
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Offline BradC

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #702 on: February 13, 2017, 01:19:01 pm »
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

If that's directed at me, I wasn't saying macOS was better than anything else, just refuting the statement it's completely closed.

No, honestly it was just an observation. It just happens _every_ time os or hardware platform is mentioned. Mostly it seems to be people ragging on Mac users, but it does go in all directions.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #703 on: February 13, 2017, 01:42:00 pm »
Microsoft has always been a good copycat and excellent at marketing, that is why they survived. In the early days they had nothing that was of their own creation. Everything was more or less copied or bought. Today it's a bit different, though they still buy good companies with great software and ruin the original software architecture when they try to add MS specific features into them.

They are also very good on MS-ofying standards. Domains and Active Directory are modified versions of Kerberos and LDAP.
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #704 on: February 13, 2017, 01:52:01 pm »
The best hardware, software and software tech has disappeared from the markets because of company mistakes and bad marketing. If the best stuff would have survived the 80s and 90s our computers including the software would look very different compared to what we have today. It's a shame so much great stuff is gone, or never got the support it deserved.
But how do we define "the best"?

There indeed were many "beautiful" architectures that eventually dropped out of mainstream or disappeared entirely. They were, without exception, closed platforms, owned by companies that were often mismanaged (post-Tramiel Commodore for example, not to say that the old man didn't make mistakes in his day). The PC architecture won out because of openness, while being "good enough".

How would the world be different if the PC didn't happen? We'd probably still have completely incompatible architectures, with software houses having to develop separately for Amiga, for Atari, for DEC, for Sun, for NeXT, for whatever else... By choosing a computer you'd probably be choosing an entire ecosystem. We probably wouldn't have USB and SATA - instead there would be Amiga external HDDs, Atari external HDDs, DEC external HDDs, Sun external HDDs, NeXT external HDDs...

Coding assembly would probably be nicer than it is for the x64 architecture... But nobody would be coding assembly anyway because I doubt the laziness of coders would have evolved differently - and you'd probably see massive feature withholding in software, as everyone would be coding in a way that can be compiled for each architecture with minimal code changes.

Machines would probably be marginally faster per clock cycle, but definitely not per US dollar, as closed architectures would have prevented the commoditization of hardware as it happened with the advent of the PC.

So... I guess the PC was probably the right choice in the end.
 
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Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #705 on: February 13, 2017, 04:49:26 pm »
Almost all of those systems you mentioned, Amiga, Atari, DEC, SUN, NeXT, etc used SCSI hard drives, the PC was the oddball back in that era, using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

I think without the PC it is still inevitable that one or two platforms would have become dominant with perhaps a couple stragglers hanging on just as has happened with mobile devices. Android and iOS dominate the market and are the only real competitors, Blackberry hung on for a long time and now Windows Mobile is the straggler. Evolving hardware would have spelled the end for all of the fancy custom chipsets as CPUs and programmable GPUs got powerful enough to make custom silicon uneconomical.
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #706 on: February 13, 2017, 05:34:48 pm »
... using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

Other way around. IDE came first, preceded by ST-506 and similar semi-proprietary interfaces.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #707 on: February 13, 2017, 05:42:31 pm »
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

If that's directed at me, I wasn't saying macOS was better than anything else, just refuting the statement it's completely closed.

No, honestly it was just an observation. It just happens _every_ time os or hardware platform is mentioned. Mostly it seems to be people ragging on Mac users, but it does go in all directions.

I just wait for someone to say 'mac is better' and then give my best 'nuh-uh'  :P
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #708 on: February 13, 2017, 05:47:11 pm »
The best hardware, software and software tech has disappeared from the markets because of company mistakes and bad marketing. If the best stuff would have survived the 80s and 90s our computers including the software would look very different compared to what we have today. It's a shame so much great stuff is gone, or never got the support it deserved.
But how do we define "the best"?

There indeed were many "beautiful" architectures that eventually dropped out of mainstream or disappeared entirely. They were, without exception, closed platforms, owned by companies that were often mismanaged (post-Tramiel Commodore for example, not to say that the old man didn't make mistakes in his day). The PC architecture won out because of openness, while being "good enough".

How would the world be different if the PC didn't happen? We'd probably still have completely incompatible architectures, with software houses having to develop separately for Amiga, for Atari, for DEC, for Sun, for NeXT, for whatever else... By choosing a computer you'd probably be choosing an entire ecosystem. We probably wouldn't have USB and SATA - instead there would be Amiga external HDDs, Atari external HDDs, DEC external HDDs, Sun external HDDs, NeXT external HDDs...

Coding assembly would probably be nicer than it is for the x64 architecture... But nobody would be coding assembly anyway because I doubt the laziness of coders would have evolved differently - and you'd probably see massive feature withholding in software, as everyone would be coding in a way that can be compiled for each architecture with minimal code changes.

Machines would probably be marginally faster per clock cycle, but definitely not per US dollar, as closed architectures would have prevented the commoditization of hardware as it happened with the advent of the PC.

So... I guess the PC was probably the right choice in the end.

All the last of the Amiga's, etc had USB and many of the other industry standards, it wasn't openenss that allowed IBM (PC) to win.   

Part of it was .gov contracts which required second supplier so the Intel/AMD/etc partnership was formed to have a second supplier for the main chips.
Software was the real big win, Microsoft software.  The first question over any Amiga/Atari, etc sale was can it run MSOffice/excel/word.

Developing for multiple platforms isn't that big of a deal, look at firefox, chrome, thunderbird, ApacheOpen/LibreOffice, KiCad, etc.  Running parallel versions for win/mac/linux isn't much work that running parallel for win/mac/linux/amiga.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #709 on: February 13, 2017, 06:00:16 pm »
... using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

Other way around. IDE came first, preceded by ST-506 and similar semi-proprietary interfaces.

IDE came out in 1986, SCSI was released initially in 1981 and evolved from the earlier SASI interface that I believe appeared in the mid 70s.
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #710 on: February 14, 2017, 02:18:17 am »
... using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

Other way around. IDE came first, preceded by ST-506 and similar semi-proprietary interfaces.

IDE came out in 1986, SCSI was released initially in 1981 and evolved from the earlier SASI interface that I believe appeared in the mid 70s.

Yes, but your assertion was that ATA come before IDE. ATA was the series of industry standards that followed on from (Compaq) Integrated Drive Electronics. Integrated as opposed to, in the PC-XT and PC-AT, the ST-506 interface and friends which left the controller with real work to do (timing sectors etc.) whereas IDE, ATA, SCSI and the Shugart Associates Serial Interface all use(d) Host Bus Adapters and just ship data and commands back and forth.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline pbendel

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #711 on: February 14, 2017, 03:06:37 am »
Somebody beyond the legal reach of Microsoft should make their own version of Windows to keep the ecosystem healthy.  I'd be happy to pay for a non morally bankrupt current version of Windows.  Maybe others would too...
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #712 on: February 14, 2017, 04:14:57 am »
Somebody beyond the legal reach of Microsoft should make their own version of Windows to keep the ecosystem healthy.  I'd be happy to pay for a non morally bankrupt current version of Windows.  Maybe others would too...
https://www.reactos.org/
 

Online John B

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #713 on: February 14, 2017, 04:37:22 am »
Mac is the only big OS name which seems to have considered MIDI and audio applications as a standard part of the OS. So in that sense Im willing to pay the markup for a tool that works.... As above, different OS's can be different tools for different applications.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #714 on: February 14, 2017, 04:39:40 am »
Somebody beyond the legal reach of Microsoft should make their own version of Windows to keep the ecosystem healthy.  I'd be happy to pay for a non morally bankrupt current version of Windows.  Maybe others would too...
https://www.reactos.org/
It has taken 20 years for Reactos to reach a point that they can unreliably run some Windows programs on a FAT32 file system. It is not currently a useable alternative. Not the slightest threat to Microsoft.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #715 on: February 14, 2017, 05:11:44 am »
Yes, but your assertion was that ATA come before IDE. ATA was the series of industry standards that followed on from (Compaq) Integrated Drive Electronics. Integrated as opposed to, in the PC-XT and PC-AT, the ST-506 interface and friends which left the controller with real work to do (timing sectors etc.) whereas IDE, ATA, SCSI and the Shugart Associates Serial Interface all use(d) Host Bus Adapters and just ship data and commands back and forth.

Yes, you're right, I worded it wrong. The IDE interface was essentially a direct connection to the 16 bit AT (ISA) bus with the controller built into the drive. The interface card in the computer being little more than some buffers and on some of them a ROM chip holding the bios. It wasn't until later that it was called ATA, however the earliest ATA was really no different than IDE, it was just renamed to reflect the greater number of uses beyond hard drives.

 
 

Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #716 on: February 14, 2017, 05:19:37 am »

All the last of the Amiga's, etc had USB and many of the other industry standards, it wasn't openenss that allowed IBM (PC) to win.   

Part of it was .gov contracts which required second supplier so the Intel/AMD/etc partnership was formed to have a second supplier for the main chips.
Software was the real big win, Microsoft software.  The first question over any Amiga/Atari, etc sale was can it run MSOffice/excel/word.

Developing for multiple platforms isn't that big of a deal, look at firefox, chrome, thunderbird, ApacheOpen/LibreOffice, KiCad, etc.  Running parallel versions for win/mac/linux isn't much work that running parallel for win/mac/linux/amiga.


The openness was a very, very large part of the reason for the success. The market was flooded with inexpensive PC clones, they outsold genuine IBM machines by many times over. There may have been some part in the second source thing but consumers didn't care about that, the PC clones sold well because they were cheap and became the defacto standard, it's similar to the way VHS beat Beta.

Cross-platform development is relatively easy now but it wasn't in the old days of DOS/Win3.x, 68k Mac and Amiga. These platforms were/are all radically different, completely different architecture, graphics, filesystems, everything, software had to be written to talk directly to the hardware in many cases. If you wanted to create a Mac version of a Windows 3.1 program you pretty much had to start from scratch, it wasn't just a matter of porting some existing code. People forget how spoiled we are these days, everything has an abstraction layer that makes the intimate details of the hardware practically irrelevant.
 
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Offline BradC

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #717 on: February 14, 2017, 10:32:29 am »
The openness was a very, very large part of the reason for the success. The market was flooded with inexpensive PC clones, they outsold genuine IBM machines by many times over.

There was nothing open about it. Compaq enabled that by pouring a metric crapton of money into a clean room clone of the BIOS. *That* is what enabled the flood of clones. A whole heap of people looked at it and went "hey, we can do that". From then on there was no need for a clean-room implementation as they could pick and choose bits from both and it became very quickly impossible to figure out what bits of the mutant came from which source, and therefore pretty much impossible to prosecute.
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #718 on: February 14, 2017, 11:46:46 am »
All the last of the Amiga's, etc had USB and many of the other industry standards, it wasn't openenss that allowed IBM (PC) to win.   

Part of it was .gov contracts which required second supplier so the Intel/AMD/etc partnership was formed to have a second supplier for the main chips.
The architecture was open. The only (read literally, ONLY) closed part of the IBM PC, the only thing IBM actually created, was the BIOS. It was all open reference stuff. It's like they took a "how to build a generic computer for dummies" kit, put it together and slapped the logo on it.

There was nothing open about it. Compaq enabled that by pouring a metric crapton of money into a clean room clone of the BIOS. *That* is what enabled the flood of clones. A whole heap of people looked at it and went "hey, we can do that". From then on there was no need for a clean-room implementation as they could pick and choose bits from both and it became very quickly impossible to figure out what bits of the mutant came from which source, and therefore pretty much impossible to prosecute.
Yes, the compatibles did start with Compaq, but so did the actual triumph of the PC. Until Compaq it was a reasonably successful business computer, but nowhere even remotely close to market dominance. IBM never truly profited from the rise of the PC. The PC rose by virtue of having been "stolen from" IBM and put in "public domain".

And as I said, it WAS open 99%. The BIOS wasn't open, and how hard was it to create a cleanroom reimplementation of that - as evidenced by all the companies who did this, it wasn't too hard. Note, this could never ever have happened to the Amiga or even the C64. Nobody could have made a 'C64 compatible'. A Macintosh compatible, that was beyond dreams. Copying an entire architecture without infringing on patents, and cleanrooming a few kilobytes of system code are lightyears apart.

Software was the real big win, Microsoft software.  The first question over any Amiga/Atari, etc sale was can it run MSOffice/excel/word.
You're confusing time periods and causality. Early Microsoft software was demonstrably inferior. Excel was inferior to Lotus, Word was inferior to WordStar.

It was the other way around. Microsoft software only became popular due to the rise of the PC, which was due to the availability of cheap compatibles. The reason that people asked in the dying days of Atari or Amiga if it runs MS Word was that PC compatibles have already won the war, and everyone ran MS Word at work by that time.

The thing Microsoft did contribute to the compatibles ecosystem was being an independent OS vendor. If PC DOS was actually an IBM exclusive product, the lack of a compatible OS could have prevented the rise of 100% PC compatibles. Since PC DOS was only a rebranded MS DOS... well we know the story.

Developing for multiple platforms isn't that big of a deal, look at firefox, chrome, thunderbird, ApacheOpen/LibreOffice, KiCad, etc.  Running parallel versions for win/mac/linux isn't much work that running parallel for win/mac/linux/amiga.
It was back then. Besides, don't compare running different OSes on the same architecture and same CPU to having different architectures, different CPUs, etc. Yes, the GNU ecosystem can live on a wide range of architectures thanks to the immense work put into their optimizing C compiler(s). But that took immense effort.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #719 on: February 14, 2017, 12:05:17 pm »
Add to the pile of turd Adobe. I installed Adobe Reader onto my new build (first for about four years) last night and it wanted a restart. I'd imagine so it can install some shitty service that'll install updates every hour or two to fix the daily offering of security vulns in its unnecessary bloat.

Adobe are another outfit heavily pushing you to their cloud and subscription services like it or not.
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #720 on: February 14, 2017, 12:09:46 pm »
Back in the day it was quite tricky to cross-develop for many architectures. Mostly because we did not have things like Java and .Net which run code in a managed environment. Back in the day it was pure Assembly, C, different forms of BASIC and Pascal that ruled.

FOr the Amiga part each Kickstart was different, and each Workbench was different and even the hardware was a bit different. It had a lot of compatibility issues so cross compiling stuff would have been a pain and a mess. Though still would have been possible.

MS won because of good marketing, it is as simple as that. Did not matter what crap they were selling, people were buying the lie every time. :-D
 

Offline madires

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #721 on: February 14, 2017, 12:26:34 pm »
Add to the pile of turd Adobe. I installed Adobe Reader onto my new build (first for about four years) last night and it wanted a restart. I'd imagine so it can install some shitty service that'll install updates every hour or two to fix the daily offering of security vulns in its unnecessary bloat.

Adobe are another outfit heavily pushing you to their cloud and subscription services like it or not.

There are several alternative PDF readers like Foxit or Evince for example. Adobe's free software is bloated and unsecure, and the automatic update function doesn't work reliable.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #722 on: February 14, 2017, 02:32:26 pm »
Add to the pile of turd Adobe. I installed Adobe Reader onto my new build (first for about four years) last night and it wanted a restart. I'd imagine so it can install some shitty service that'll install updates every hour or two to fix the daily offering of security vulns in its unnecessary bloat.

Adobe are another outfit heavily pushing you to their cloud and subscription services like it or not.

There are several alternative PDF readers like Foxit or Evince for example. Adobe's free software is bloated and unsecure, and the automatic update function doesn't work reliable.

I am wondering if, in practice, alternatives work well enough to be a replacement? I guess the only way to figure it out is to try it on my use cases.

One further obnoxious thing is that Windows 10 keeps reverting the default pdf reader to its Edge browser which is a very poor pdf renderer in terms of features. It does make you wonder what Microsoft think they are doing, changing users' preferred settings in such an arrogant way.

 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #723 on: February 14, 2017, 03:27:36 pm »
Been using okular for a long time now, haven't bothered to install adobe in years.  Pretty much don't need flash either.
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #724 on: February 14, 2017, 03:38:06 pm »

One further obnoxious thing is that Windows 10 keeps reverting the default pdf reader to its Edge browser

It should only revert to defaults when you get a feature upgrade (the same as Windows version change, like jumping from 7 to 8.1 but in this case from Win 10 version xxxx to 1607, which is the current one )

Windows does this because the upgrade comes as a whole package, and in order for being able to demonstrate all the new features working together, the defaults has to be enabled. It is a good idea to check these settings and many others every time you get a new feature upgrade (one is behind the corner already and will be released within a few months).
 


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