Author Topic: Windows is getting disgusting  (Read 158509 times)

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Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #775 on: February 21, 2017, 04:11:59 pm »
That's the thing about Linux, it's typically more involved to set things up.  You really have to be well versed in computer systems to use it.
Have you tried a modern Windows Enterprise?  Just a couple of pages ago slicendice claimed that to be a decent Windows sysadmin you need no less than FIVE (5) certifications.  Agree with that number or not, that's the rough level of knowledge (education or experience) needed to properly run a Windows Enterprise environment.  How is that any better than Linux?

I am very well versed in computer systems, and it still took me literally days and multiple phone calls and emails to multiple Microsoft Authorized Partners to figure out the licensing requirements to set up ONE computer that TWO people could RDP into and run Office and one other piece of software.  Over a thousand dollars in labor spent just to figure out the licensing requirements for a trivially simple application, and that's not even counting the additional $2k+ required on the actual licenses themselves.  After a few of these systems you would easily have paid enough in research and licensing to cover the cost of figuring out Linux, and from then on it's free...Windows will keep charging you, again and again, every machine you set up, every service you try to add to it.  And it's STILL a POS with spyware embedded into the core of the OS, requiring days of labor to clean up all of the crap and get it running how it should have come from the factory.
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #776 on: February 21, 2017, 04:14:00 pm »
Or go cloud.
Or go to Linux, which in my experience is significantly easier to setup and maintain in a server position than Windows Enterprise, not to mention it's free.

For a small business with no real computer person? Please. Someone who, if you're lucky, can know how to add a user or reset a password and still might need help with that is not going to be able to manage a Linux system.

They're not going to be able to navigate the Windows Enterprise licensing structure either, or figure out all of the arbitrary rules MS has put in place requiring multiple machines to run different services because MS doesn't want them running on the same computer.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #777 on: February 21, 2017, 04:23:02 pm »
Microsoft's horrendously complex licensing is an industry joke, and they keep changing it and adding bits on. It's like doing a tax return. Maybe Sandra and Jim from accounts would be able to figure this bit out!
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #778 on: February 21, 2017, 07:02:22 pm »
 They're not really arbitrary rules as to what plays together on the same server. Some of the stuff really does not play well together, Small Business Server with it all loaded onto a single server is actually a good example of why it's not recommended to run some of that stuff together. Horrendously slow shutdown and boot times as the various servers get into a race condition on what needs to stop first and what has to wait. Startup being equally messed up as each service grabs a huge chunk of resources before settling down which just delays the next service from starting in an avalanche effect. Eventually it all comes up and is running, but wow.

 As for the WHS client - it's not that huge, it never did anything to any of my machines, and the crazy thing is it still works even with Windows 10. The notifications I get fro it all say something useful (except the you can't truly permanently disable "Windows Firewall is turned off" one). Usually stuff like "server has installed updates" or "<computer on my network> has critical updates to install"

 vs Linux in the small business environment - plenty of non-computer people pick up enough to keep their system going via the SBS console or Essentials Dashboard. No, they don't set the system up, someone like us does that for them. But maintain a Linux system? Not likely.

 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #779 on: February 21, 2017, 07:26:13 pm »
LOL, with Linux administering you have all the same issues as with Windows, and most stuff you have to manage through the BASH or using a web interface. Either you know how to manage a cluster of computers or you don't, does not matter if it is Windows, Linux or Mac, same problem still.

Yes MS licensing is a nightmare, there are so many alternatives and combinations, and the full detailed information can be quite difficult to get your hands on.

Has anybody tried Windows Server 2016 Essentials? It is really really easy to use via the Essentials dashboard. The traditional Server Manager Dashboard is available too though, if one want be in more control.

Either way...Windows is getting really good, there is so much stuff going on behind the scenes that most users won't even notice. And I am not talking about some telemetry data or MS spying on you. MS spying on you is total BS, they respect your privacy. There is a lot of really good change in the core of Windows, including multiple added layers of security that are completely missing in Windows 7 because these features are not built into the core/kernel. ...and more security features are coming with each new edition upgrade because the Windows 10 core allows to do this, where older Windows don't.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #780 on: February 21, 2017, 07:52:36 pm »
 Licensing is easy, if you are big enough to afford it or a qualifying non-profit - just go virtual and buy Server Enterprise for each host. Then you can spin up as many virtual guest servers as you want/need. Otherwise I don't think even the people at Microsoft really understand it - based on the quotes we get.
 It doesn't help that they keep changing it, mostly in response to there now being server CPUs with 18 or more cores.

 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #781 on: February 21, 2017, 07:56:49 pm »
They would do themselves a huge favour just to (a) disable compulsory updates until there is positive user intervention to download or install them and (b) stop hijacking your settings on installing those updates.

I found ads coming up in the Skype window during a call the other day during a long call helping someone fix his embedded bootloader. They don't give a shit about user experience.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #782 on: February 21, 2017, 08:07:10 pm »
Licensing is easy, if you are big enough to afford it or a qualifying non-profit - just go virtual and buy Server Enterprise for each host. Then you can spin up as many virtual guest servers as you want/need. Otherwise I don't think even the people at Microsoft really understand it - based on the quotes we get.
 It doesn't help that they keep changing it, mostly in response to there now being server CPUs with 18 or more cores.

Just the SQL Server 2016 licensing pdf is 32 pages long with more options than an Office 2016 Ribbon. They _have_ to simplify and target a single page.

I totally agree that by far most Microsoft employees don't understand it either, because they don't need to. That is part of the problem.

Interestingly they recently relaxed the SQL Server Standard licensing by enabling a whole bunch of features that were previously on Enterprise on 2016 SP1, and if the grapevine is true their KPIs on SQL Server revenue were plummeting since they massively hiked Enterprise costs and everyone downgraded to Standard.
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #783 on: February 21, 2017, 08:55:00 pm »
They're not really arbitrary rules as to what plays together on the same server. Some of the stuff really does not play well together, Small Business Server with it all loaded onto a single server is actually a good example of why it's not recommended to run some of that stuff together. Horrendously slow shutdown and boot times as the various servers get into a race condition on what needs to stop first and what has to wait. Startup being equally messed up as each service grabs a huge chunk of resources before settling down which just delays the next service from starting in an avalanche effect. Eventually it all comes up and is running, but wow.
Then that's a SUPER shitty design, not surprising though.

LOL, with Linux administering you have all the same issues as with Windows, and most stuff you have to manage through the BASH or using a web interface. Either you know how to manage a cluster of computers or you don't, does not matter if it is Windows, Linux or Mac, same problem still.
Except MS tacks on truckloads of extra crap you have to deal with, such as those already mentioned.  Services not playing nice with each other, requiring extra VMs or extra machines to actually get the job done, a licensing nightmare that keeps changing and they don't even understand, etc.

Either way...Windows is getting really good, there is so much stuff going on behind the scenes that most users won't even notice. And I am not talking about some telemetry data or MS spying on you. MS spying on you is total BS, they respect your privacy.
Oh come on...put the koolaid down, this is ridiculous.  If MS gave two craps about respecting privacy they wouldn't revert your privacy settings on every update back to sharing everything.  If they cared about privacy, these options, such as recording everything you say, everything you type, and everything you do and reporting it back to MS, would be OPT-IN, not OPT-OUT, and certainly not re-opt-out after every system update.
 
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Offline DimitriP

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #784 on: February 22, 2017, 12:47:48 am »
Quote
There is a lot of really good change in the core of Windows, including multiple added layers of security that are completely missing in Windows 7 because these features are not built into the core/kernel. ...and more security features are coming with each new edition upgrade because the Windows 10 core allows to do this, where older Windows don't.



E N O U G H !!!
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Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #785 on: February 22, 2017, 10:08:26 am »
All you negatives only see the surface, dig deep into Windows and you'll see what is improved.

Having to virtualize or setting up stuff on additional hardware is a good thing, adds an extra layer of security to the whole system because each process is sand boxed and totally separated from each other. You should do the same on Linux too. Plus virtualizing allows the whole system to use its full potential because usually a service only use a few percent of resources.

Buy Skype for business, if ads annoy you. The money for maintaining servers has to come from somewhere. There does not exist "something for nothing", meaning someone has to pay.

If services don't play good together, then the problem is how it is setup.

How do you think the speech recognition engine can learn new accents if the data isn't processed somewhere? What about battery life on a laptop, if everything is processed and analyzed and optimized locally? Same for search keywords you type in. The words and the relationship between returned results and what the user was actually looking for, has to be processed somewhere in order for the service being able to serve you better. What about data storage? Sending the data away helps save storage space and how could any company be able to improve anything if they have no data to work with?

What about millions of different device configurations? How can anything be improved if the one who can make a difference has no data to work with? The information must come from somewhere or a company would not even know what kind of hardware you are using.

Many just expect stuff to work on their computer without even thinking how it was gotten working in the first place. Not helping the developer by not sending some data, will end up in a half baked product and the only one suffering is YOU, the customer.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:10:22 am by slicendice »
 

Online Marco

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #786 on: February 22, 2017, 11:57:38 am »
The design and implementation of security on Windows is improving massively. Shame it's happening at the same exact time they are transforming into a datamining company which wants to sell its users to advertisers.

Google does that better, Apple does security well enough and at this point offers more freedom than Microsoft (on the software side). Microsoft is rapidly losing its raison d'etre.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 12:01:29 pm by Marco »
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #787 on: February 22, 2017, 12:05:40 pm »

How do you think the speech recognition engine can learn new accents if the data isn't processed somewhere? What about battery life on a laptop, if everything is processed and analyzed and optimized locally? Same for search keywords you type in. The words and the relationship between returned results and what the user was actually looking for, has to be processed somewhere in order for the service being able to serve you better. What about data storage? Sending the data away helps save storage space and how could any company be able to improve anything if they have no data to work with?

What about millions of different device configurations? How can anything be improved if the one who can make a difference has no data to work with? The information must come from somewhere or a company would not even know what kind of hardware you are using.

Many just expect stuff to work on their computer without even thinking how it was gotten working in the first place. Not helping the developer by not sending some data, will end up in a half baked product and the only one suffering is YOU, the customer.

Maybe they should ask some of the popular Linux distros how they are able to manage things without the (forced) data collection?
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #788 on: February 22, 2017, 03:16:37 pm »
Maybe they should ask some of the popular Linux distros how they are able to manage things without the (forced) data collection?

You are missing the point! Most Linux distros, especially the ones on the top are terrible at conserving battery as is. Requires a bit of fiddling with the system before it is acceptable. And here we are back at another point --> have to configure a lot before it's usable, and doing it on Linux many times requires a lot of BASH scripting knowledge and in some cases even recompiling the Kernel. Besides Linux is open source, and most is contributed through open source software contributions from enthusiasts, so these enhusiasts can use their own experience and data collections locally and code what seems to be the best approach.
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #789 on: February 22, 2017, 03:32:34 pm »
The design and implementation of security on Windows is improving massively. Shame it's happening at the same exact time they are transforming into a datamining company which wants to sell its users to advertisers.

Microsoft is not selling your data to anyone. They use your data to give you ads from an ad pool that are most relevant for you, which would be mainly local ads. Me as a Finnish citizen have no use of ads coming from India. If they come from the US or UK, they might be relevant and useful but Finnish ads are the most relevant for me, just like Indian ads are relevant for Indians and Finnish ads would make no sense to them.

The data mining of computer usage and hardware configurations goes hand in hand with the massive improvement in quality of Windows security and other services. Windows 10 is the fastest built OS from scratch, ever. they have put together a completely new design in less than 2 years. And 2 years later (4 years in total) a lot of stuff has improved even more. If it wasn't for the data mining we would still not see any hints of Windows 10, but instead it is already out there and improving every day.

If any of you have issues with how MS manages it's OS, then join the Preview Program and get your voice heard. I know a lot of people that think like most in this thread. And I completely understand the feeling, but it should not just stay as a feeling. Let MS know what you feel and think, so they can change how they move forward.
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #790 on: February 22, 2017, 04:25:45 pm »
You are missing the point! Most Linux distros, especially the ones on the top are terrible at conserving battery as is. Requires a bit of fiddling with the system before it is acceptable.
You're going way off topic here, and are wrong anyway.  Every Linux distro I've used on a laptop has had comparable battery life to Windows, many times even better, with zero fiddling or reconfiguration.  The trick is to choose a laptop from the get-go that uses hardware with good cross-platform driver support.  If you choose a laptop that was designed to only be compatible with Windows, you'll be fighting an uphill battle regardless of what you do.  That's the fault of the hardware manufacturer.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #791 on: February 22, 2017, 04:38:02 pm »
You are missing the point! Most Linux distros, especially the ones on the top are terrible at conserving battery as is. Requires a bit of fiddling with the system before it is acceptable.
You're going way off topic here, and are wrong anyway.  Every Linux distro I've used on a laptop has had comparable battery life to Windows, many times even better, with zero fiddling or reconfiguration.  The trick is to choose a laptop from the get-go that uses hardware with good cross-platform driver support.  If you choose a laptop that was designed to only be compatible with Windows, you'll be fighting an uphill battle regardless of what you do.  That's the fault of the hardware manufacturer.

Same here, I've always spent 30 minutes or less installing Linux on a "new" laptop (I say "new" here as I buy a refurbished every couple years so I can keep rotating my previous though one of my kids as they want newer faster).  Windows takes far more configuring before its usable and then contestant configuring to keep it usable.

My career is in IT but I went to college for electronics.  As is typical with most IT people I have a decent home network with various servers and clients for various reasons such as keeping up with the latest trends and tech to storing data for my hobbies.   Windows got to the point where it simply took too much time keeping it running and I got to spend less and less time on things I wanted to do.  Eventually I moved away from windows so I could gain the time back.  Moving away from windows let me get back into electronics even if its only at a hobby level now.  I'm also messing with programming languages, retro computing (Amiga), shooting, reloading, wooddorking, etc all in the time freed up by not having to maintain windows.  My Linux servers just keep running and I spend a few minutes here and there making updates or the 30 minutes to rebuild one due to failed hardware. 
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #792 on: February 22, 2017, 04:49:48 pm »
The design and implementation of security on Windows is improving massively. Shame it's happening at the same exact time they are transforming into a datamining company which wants to sell its users to advertisers.

Microsoft is not selling your data to anyone. They use your data to give you ads from an ad pool that are most relevant for you, which would be mainly local ads. Me as a Finnish citizen have no use of ads coming from India. If they come from the US or UK, they might be relevant and useful but Finnish ads are the most relevant for me, just like Indian ads are relevant for Indians and Finnish ads would make no sense to them.

The data mining of computer usage and hardware configurations goes hand in hand with the massive improvement in quality of Windows security and other services. Windows 10 is the fastest built OS from scratch, ever. they have put together a completely new design in less than 2 years. And 2 years later (4 years in total) a lot of stuff has improved even more. If it wasn't for the data mining we would still not see any hints of Windows 10, but instead it is already out there and improving every day.

If any of you have issues with how MS manages it's OS, then join the Preview Program and get your voice heard. I know a lot of people that think like most in this thread. And I completely understand the feeling, but it should not just stay as a feeling. Let MS know what you feel and think, so they can change how they move forward.

*NO* ads are relevant to me, they are all an intrusion and having them come from the operating system itself is unacceptable. I've used adblock for years in my browser and it makes the internet tolerable, not much I can do about websites tracking me other than pollute my online profile with as much false information as possible but my operating system is sacred, my PC is my *personal* computer, it does what I want it to do and nothing more. Baked in data mining is not welcome, period, it is classified as malware. They may not be selling personal info now but I don't trust them at all. Just look at how they abused the Windows Update system and kept pushing out that GWX crap and then being sneaky and hiding the way to decline, repeatedly. I know several people who got up one day to find their machine "upgraded" to Win10 and Microsoft has been completely unapologetic about the matter.

The insider program is a joke, Microsoft is notorious for ignoring user feedback. Just take for example Aero Glass, that was the top most requested feature and they have steadfastly refused. Look, I worked at Microsoft years back and I'm still in touch with a number of people who work there still, so I have some insight into what goes on internally. When Phone more or less folded a lot of phone guys got rolled into the Windows team and that's the reason all this app crap has been forced in, despite absolutely no evidence that it is useful to anyone. Win10 is a half baked designed-by-committee mess and they *will* continue to tinker with it incessantly. Nothing annoys me more than stuff changing around on my computer without my consent. I will upgrade when *I* choose, I will not accept forced updates and constant fiddling. They had *one* chance to make a first impression and they shipped a half baked mess. Probably why Win10 has been sitting at about 23% adoption despite a year of pushing it "for free", extremely aggressively, going so far as tricking people into installing it, clicking the red X schedules the upgrade? You can't tell me that wasn't deliberately intended to be deceptive.
 

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #793 on: February 22, 2017, 05:37:41 pm »
Can't really make broad equations between personal use and enterprise or small business use of Windows.  They're two different animals.  My perspective is purely for use as a personal computer.  I did have a personal server at one time on my home network and it was Linux.  I dropped it because I didn't want to spend the time to maintain it or pay for a static IP with DNS registration.  It was a Linux system, Debian specifically.  I would not consider using a Windows system for that if I were to run a personal server again. 

I feel pretty strongly about the invasion of privacy and lack of control MS seems to be offering with Windows 10.  It's a trend I've noticed over the years of using Windows as I'm forced to move to the next version (which I always do reluctantly).  It may have finally come to a head where I can't take it anymore.  When Microsoft obsoletes win7 that may be it for me.  As pointed out above the poor adoption rate of Win10 may be a good indicator a lot of people feel that way.  You would think they would make products to be as attractive as possible, but big companies always seem to lose sight of the primary goal at some point.  That goal being to provide products people want because they are truly an improvement over the last iteration.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #794 on: February 22, 2017, 06:09:57 pm »
pay for a static IP with DNS registration.

ddns client through afraid.org no need to pay for static.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #795 on: February 22, 2017, 09:44:08 pm »
 Google does what better? Mines your data and sells it to others. Better how? Because they are more sneaky about it than even Microsoft? I've always loved this - Microsoft does something, how evil a company they are. Google does the same thing - all hail the great and benevolent Google.

 That SQL licensing PDF - it's more than 50% fluff. Several pages comparing the various editions (that's not really "how to license" information) and a whole explanation (read: marketing wank) on why Software Assurance is a good thing (also not part of actually licensing SQL Server). The actual license part is only a couple of pages and that includes explanations or cores in relation to physical and virtual servers that really I doubt many professionals need. CIO types maybe. There's even an alternative smaller brochure on licensing on the very same page as the longer one. At least Microsoft does not rip you off when doing server redundancy - that crown goes to Oracle. Funny how most Oracle users tend to be large government agencies - hey, not their money.

 

Online rdl

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #796 on: February 22, 2017, 10:21:33 pm »
Windows is an operating system. Google is not. This makes a very big difference to me. I consider both companies to be "evil" however, and to be avoided at any cost.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #797 on: February 22, 2017, 10:54:36 pm »
Yeah I hate the "well Google/Apple/Whatever does it and you're ok with that so shut up about Windows doing it" thing. No, I'm really not ok with those other companies doing those things, and the fact that Windows previously didn't do those things makes it all the more angering that they think they can slip this stuff in and nobody will mind. I very much do mind, and I've avoided Google for years because they are at their core an advertising company. Google products are not produced for the greater good of humanity, they are trojan horses that exist to trade you a potentially useful product or service in exchange for valuable personal information. Maybe it's a fair trade, maybe it isn't, but that should be my choice to make, not part of the operating system on my PC.
 
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Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #798 on: February 22, 2017, 11:00:01 pm »
I've always loved this - Microsoft does something, how evil a company they are. Google does the same thing - all hail the great and benevolent Google.
Google doesn't run my OS.  If I want to avoid Google, I can, it's very easy.  It's not so easy when the data mining is built into the core of the OS and can't be turned off (and what little can be turned off, gets turned back on again without your approval at the next update, which also happens without your approval).
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #799 on: February 23, 2017, 02:26:46 pm »
 They do if you use Android devices, or a Chromebook.

I did NOT say "if Google does it, it's ok for Microsoft" nor imply such. There is simply a double standard in general when it comes to many of these privacy issues. Article after article rails on Microsoft when they aren't, at least currently, selling any of that usage data they are collecting, but when it comes to Apple or Google you get something more along the lines of "Apple (or Google) admits to doing x, but says they stopped" so now is all OK.

Is Windows perfect? Hell no. But so much of this "disgusting" stuff is really a whole lot of FUD. Linux isn't perfect either - and I'm pretty sure I said it a whole lot of page ago but all the "choice" Linux brings is precisely why it hasn't been able to take a larger share of the desktop. It's almost a religion as to which windows manager is the best, and the debate often rests on technical issues that the average user has no clue about. ANd I DO use both Windows and Linux. Mostly my Linux system 'just works' but there's those little things - luckily in man cases well documented since I am far from the first person to encounter such. One that stands out - the control software I use for my model railroad runs on most any platform - Windows, Linux, OSx. Windows and Mac users can simply install the program and configure it for their device and system. Linux, you can just install it, but it won't see your interface device until you alter the permissions on the serial port. Device driver support is another - and in a large part to blame for Windows instability vs a more restricted environment where you can't install just any crap hardware. I built a low power low resource small form factor system to be my 'railroad computer' and even though it was capable of running Windows, I instead installed Linux since it was even better in the low resource environment. But there was no driver for my wireless card. I had to compile my own. No way is "Joe User" going to be able to do that - or want to. For me, I needed a quick refresher since it had been a while but it wasn't too difficult to accomplish - my first Linux was 0.89a way back when there were no precompiled distros that installed as easily as Windows.

 


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