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General => General Chat => Topic started by: blueskull on December 19, 2015, 10:49:00 am

Title: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 19, 2015, 10:49:00 am
Long story short, I downloaded Win10 form Windows update, but decided not to install it. It kept popping up to ask if I want to install it now. About a week ago, I finally decided to upgrade, but it failed and I got just black screen. After a force shutdown, it restored itself to Win7. After a reboot, it showed update fail, and I removed the update from Windows Update.

Today, without letting me know, it automatically upgraded to Win10 :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:. I pulled the plug, and now it rolled back to Win7 again.

Is there anyway to permanently prevent Win10 from getting into my hard drive?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: IanJ on December 19, 2015, 11:18:15 am
I like Win7 on my dev PC, and I don't really mind Win10....but only on my other general purpose PC's, laptops etc.
What frustrates me on the Win7 machine is that I told Windows Update to "hide" the Win10 update nag.........but it only lasts a month and then it's back again. Grrrr!

All my Win7 to Win10 upgrades have gone faultlessly though.

Ian.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 19, 2015, 11:26:51 am
Why don't you want to solve the problem with the update failing? I have had a few (3) routine updates fail lately and the troubleshooter did whatever resets it had to do to clear the problem. Find the error code and Google it.

Windows 10 is OK.

When I did the upgrade I copied my Win7 system and recovery partitions to a new hard disk and then did a factory reset and moved forward from there. It was quite a palaver but I at least had a solid backout plan. Most people will be happy to trust Microsoft. That has been good enough for people I know.  You did start out to do an upgrade. Don't give up so easily.

I know why it is failing -- I deleted the files as I do NOT want to upgrade to Win10. Clicking upgrade is to trigger a failure and shut it up.
I use Win10 on my laptop, and it works great. My problem is, I have a bunch of software improperly installed in Windows\System32.
Further, I have 80 days license left of CrossCore Embedded Studio registered under my computer, and applying for a free new one is not easy.
This also happens to some other commercial software, say, I have a node locked ImageCraft C compiler, a set of digital filter design tool and a copy of Synopsys.

When Win10 is mature enough, say, 1 year after launching (which the last call before I have to pay for it), I will move to Win10.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: crispy_tofu on December 19, 2015, 11:32:57 am
There's a program called GWX Control Panel (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/) that might be able to do what you want (no affiliation).  :-+
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Psi on December 19, 2015, 11:35:08 am
win10 is mature enough now.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 19, 2015, 11:35:49 am
There's a program called GWX Control Panel (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/) that might be able to do what you want (no affiliation).  :-+

Cool software. I just used it to disable WU OS upgrade, so hopefully it will never nag me again. Already hid GWX upgrade.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on December 19, 2015, 11:44:49 am

What frustrates me on the Win7 machine is that I told Windows Update to "hide" the Win10 update nag.........but it only lasts a month and then it's back again. Grrrr!


Running Win 7 here and I, too, had that irritating nag.  The classic removal steps worked fine for a while (probably about a month) and then it magically reappeared.  I had wondered if MS would do something like this, so I wasn't really surprised when it happened - but I was annoyed.  However, I created my own solution that seems to be working a treat.

I simply created a program that did nothing, then copied it into the location(s) where the program gwx.exe lived.  I then renamed gwx.exe to oldgwx.exe (in case I needed to get it back for some reason) and then renamed my 'return' program to gwx.exe.

Now when the nag is kicked off, it simply runs my program which does absolutely nothing but end successfully.  I'm really happy.

If anyone is interested, I can put it up as an attachment (if putting up an .exe file is permitted)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: continuo on December 19, 2015, 11:48:34 am
Is there anyway to permanently prevent Win10 from getting into my hard drive?

Check this: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 19, 2015, 11:50:05 am
Is there anyway to permanently prevent Win10 from getting into my hard drive?

Check this: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351

Thanks. I guess the program CT suggested does exactly the same thing.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on December 19, 2015, 01:32:27 pm
All I ever did was review every non-security ("important") update. There are very few of those and it's pretty easy to tell which are "upgrade" related. If you need to go back and remove them manually there are web sites which list them all by kb number and provide removal instructions.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Homer J Simpson on December 19, 2015, 01:52:52 pm
I just went back to Windows 7 and could not be happier. Ran 10 for about 3 months, (yuck), IMO.

Also, it has already been mentioned in the thread but I highly recommend GWX Control Panel if you are running 7. It will remove and stop the Windows 10 upgrade garbage.

http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: v8dave on December 19, 2015, 03:47:15 pm
I am generally happy with Win10 but one bugging thing is that their new browser Edge keeps changing the default PDF viewer to itself no matter how many times I change it in the settings to use Adobe Acrobat.

It also keep settings itself as the default browser even though I have continued to tell Chrome to be the default.

Microsoft seem to be driving things their way again and this is not good.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on December 19, 2015, 03:51:18 pm
Uninstall and hide Windows Update KB3035583.

or

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx]
"DisableGwx"=dword:00000001
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on December 19, 2015, 03:53:05 pm
You might also want to run this:
https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows

It adds blocking in your hosts files for servers for the other spying programs being installed during updates even if you don't install windows 10, and also removes and blocks those updates.

Any other time in history, Windows 10 forced updates would be called a trojan horse.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on December 19, 2015, 04:09:19 pm
W10 is a better and faster operating system than the older ones
That is what people said when Windows 3.11, Windows 95, Windows NT, Windows98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows7, Windows8 and now Windows 10 where released. The simple reality is that Windows slows itself down over time so a fresh install or a new version will always feel faster. However after a couple of months it will have slowed itself down again to snail speed no matter what kind of computer you throw at it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on December 19, 2015, 06:23:52 pm
It's best just to re-install Windows once a year anyway. Try to use as much portable software as possible to keep from cluttering up the registry. Windows 10 benefits Microsoft more than the users due to all the spyware and attacks on your freedom, in that they wish to turn all PCs into a locked down system like X-Box. Best to stay with Windows 7, but be watchful and begin the move to Linux.

For years many people have said Microsoft was evil. I would say, no they are just incompetent. I was wrong.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on December 19, 2015, 06:36:25 pm
W10 is a better and faster operating system than the older ones
That is what people said when Windows 3.11, Windows 95, Windows NT, Windows98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows7, Windows8 and now Windows 10 where released. The simple reality is that Windows slows itself down over time so a fresh install or a new version will always feel faster. However after a couple of months it will have slowed itself down again to snail speed no matter what kind of computer you throw at it.

You have the two product lines rolled together, WinNT wasn't the successor to 95.  NT 3.5 then NT4 then W2000 were the business products in parallel with 95, 98 and ME.  XP was where they combined them.
I ran win 3.1 then 3.11 then 95, then NT4, tried 98 for a day but it was a total bust and went back to NT4 until 2k.  Ran 2k until XP then bought a new laptop in 2002 with XP and it was just a let down after 2k that after a year I switched to Linux and never went back.  Still have that old laptop and it can still run the same current version of Linux I run now.
Bought my wife a new laptop with 8 last year and it was so unusable that the laptop sat for months just being used as a stand for her phone.  She upgraded to 10 and it almost works now so she can get a little bit of work done on it now but still user her phone more.  Was a nice laptop too, if the store hadn't run out of stock I'd have bought myself one too, was a refurbished deal for a good price such a shame to see it go to waste.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on December 19, 2015, 07:07:23 pm
I switched to Linux too. I'm thinking about getting a new laptop but having it run Linux as the primary OS and XP in a VM for legacy support seems like a very good idea. I installed Windows 8 in a VM once. I had a  :wtf: moment, scratched the back of my head and deleted the VM.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: NiHaoMike on December 19, 2015, 07:11:20 pm
Maybe it's time to make some software that feeds the "spyware" junk to make it harder to get actual data from it?

I just use Linux...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: bingo600 on December 19, 2015, 07:22:50 pm
Linux for me too

Debian on servers , and Mint 17 on workstation/lappy's

I actually need to have one functioning windows for updating my Garmin GPS , as i have no Mac  :--

Quartus & ISE are native linux @ here  ;)

lt-spice runs ok in wine

/Bingo

Ps: I just discovered shutter , a "snagit lookalike" for linux ....  :-+ :-+

Maybe we should have a : What ee-related programs do you use in linux thread
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Zero999 on December 19, 2015, 08:27:52 pm
Is there anyway to permanently prevent Win10 from getting into my hard drive?

Check this: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351
I did that a few months ago and it hasn't bugged me since.

I will probably upgrade to Windows 10 but will do so when I want to, not when M$ pushes it on me.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 19, 2015, 09:57:47 pm
Linux for me too

Debian on servers , and Mint 17 on workstation/lappy's

I actually need to have one functioning windows for updating my Garmin GPS , as i have no Mac  :--

Quartus & ISE are native linux @ here  ;)

lt-spice runs ok in wine

/Bingo

Ps: I just discovered shutter , a "snagit lookalike" for linux ....  :-+ :-+

Maybe we should have a : What ee-related programs do you use in linux thread

As long as I can run Altium Designer and CrossCore Embedded Studio, I would be happy to move to Linux.
I have a NUC, a RPi2 and a RPi0 running Debian variants (Ubuntu Server, Rasbbian and Raspbian w/o GUI).

AD can be run under Wine, but as far as I know, it is far from perfect, especially when things became GPU intensive.
CCES does not have perfect Linux substitution either. I use the latest BF706, blackfin gcc won't work with it.

So right now, my main productivity platform is Win7 and Win10, running on my workstation and laptop.

Back to your question: the most run program on my Linux box for EE are Octave, GCC and a bunch of home made design tools written in C, octave, as well as test scripts written in bash/makefile.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on December 19, 2015, 10:59:23 pm
It's best just to re-install Windows once a year anyway.
And spend most of a week to reinstall & reconfigure all the software? No thanks! I make a snapshot every now and then so if Windows starts to misbehave I just roll the snapshot back.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: VK3DRB on December 20, 2015, 11:17:56 am
win10 is mature enough now.

You are joking aren't you.

Windows 10 is still a lot slower to boot up than Window 7. Worse still is the "I think am booted up" rubbish where keystrokes are delayed or are lost altogether, and the browser does not work when invoked early. None of this happened under Windows 7. And there still are too many bugs in Windows 10, like screen refresh problems. Give it 2 years and maybe it will be stable.

Why Gates never thought it was an idea to give Windows a subsystem boot status, as Linux has, beggars belief. Quote from Gates himself... “If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.”

As much as I dislike Windows bloatware, at least Windows 7 was stable and they called programs "programs". The buffoons at Microsoft now call programs "apps", and soon you all will doing the same, as you are being reprogrammed to do.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on December 20, 2015, 11:33:26 am
The buffoons at Microsoft
To put it into perspective, Steven Sinofsky, former President of the Windows Division, and who we can all thank for Windows 8, is on the board of investments at Andreessen Horowitz, who invested in.... uBeam.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on December 20, 2015, 01:11:36 pm
Steven Sinofsky,
It was just a gig, and now he is on the next one...
May all his windows be dirty forever
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rjeberhardt on December 20, 2015, 03:19:44 pm
Why can't Microsoft write a system which will continue working while updates are in progress like Linux?  I use Linux 95% of the time but when I must boot into Windows (because I need to run something I can't run under Linux such as updating my GPS) Windows always decides that it must do some updates and makes me wait half an hour or so before it will let me in, frequently rebooting into Linux unless I sit watching it.

As for "Moving to Linux is not a viable solution for non technical users", I installed PCLinuxOS on my wife's computer and she wouldn't go back to Windows if it was the last OS on Earth!

Russell.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on December 20, 2015, 04:24:27 pm
And spend most of a week to reinstall & reconfigure all the software? No thanks! I make a snapshot every now and then so if Windows starts to misbehave I just roll the snapshot back.

This won't work for everything, but you would be surprised at how much software doesn't actually need to be "installed". Put a copy of the program folder on a different machine or a flash drive and try it. Note that if the developer was an idiot and stored settings in the registry instead of a proper configuration file, then there may be some additional set up required.

I have a general rule that any programs I use must be able to run in portable mode, or close to it. The only exception would be something I really, really need but will not run unless actually installed.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on December 20, 2015, 04:53:38 pm
Moving to Linux is not a viable solution for non technical users.

It's true that windows is meant for non technical users.  That's one of the many reasons I don't work with it.


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on December 20, 2015, 06:23:11 pm
Moving to Linux is not a viable solution for non technical users.

Takes no more technical skill that reinstalling windows.  I've gotten to clean up peoples windows reinstall that didn't know to download the manufacturers chipset drivers so you had 20 minute boot time then finally get the drivers downloaded and installed and it then boots in 2 minutes.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Zero999 on December 20, 2015, 06:27:32 pm
Linux is fine for those who aren't technical, until it comes to installing something like a printer which isn't supported.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on December 20, 2015, 06:58:58 pm
Linux is fine for those who aren't technical, until it comes to installing something like a printer which isn't supported.

You mean a printer that actually is supported under Win7/8/10, which pretty much does exclude all printers older than around 4 years. Or is it the 300M installer that also includes " for your convenience" all languages under the sun, installers for all models from the first to the latest ( except for your model, which requires another 300M download of course), some ad supported bloatware that has no uninstaller, no EULA, installs before any other screens even show up, and which only serves to use more memory than you have, use more disk space and which communicates with some home server almost every mouse click you make.

Or like when I connected a HP laser to my box, and turned it on, after which it just worked without any other action on my part. I use a driver at work that just talks PCL6, and point it at the printer. Still the same even though the printer has been changed out twice since it was installed, and still works fine, unlike the windows drivers which fall over every so often.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on December 20, 2015, 08:14:07 pm
The problem for many is that there aren't many options but to run Windows of some flavor for many important programs, especially if there is a significant investment in that software. For me I have some significant money tied up in Adobe products, Sony Vegas and other multimedia production from Sony, addons and plugins for the them, Autocad, Reaper, and some other things.

I basically have the choice to dump those investments and use the Linux "alternatives" or keep on with Win7 until I can't anymore. I have tried to do all in Linux that I needed once upon a time but it was impossible. Dependencies would always break before I could get everything working. So the Linux snobs yelled at me for being stooopid for trying to do what I wanted to do, and being stooopid for not knowing how to make everything work, or called me stooopid for trying to use modern hardware. The suggestions were to multiboot a different distro, or multiple installs of the same distro, plus run windows in a virtual machine to get everything working. What a waste of time and what a joke.

I guess I need to try again, but I hate masochism......
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Nepenthes on December 20, 2015, 08:21:21 pm
Change just for change is never good. Windows 7 is ideal for mankind. The geeks can have 8 and 10.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on December 20, 2015, 08:32:40 pm
Linux is fine for those who aren't technical, until it comes to installing something like a printer which isn't supported.

Our supported under Windows printer could not print legal size in windows 8/8.1.  Wife has to use my Linux laptop to print her bank statements.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MT on December 20, 2015, 08:36:39 pm
We installed W10 (former XP and win 7) on 2 laptops and what a crap pile of spyware it is!And what a drag to get rid off!
So we went back to win7 on one laptop and turned off the spyware , yes MS have manged to add spyware to w7 and w8
in latest servpack and Linux will go into the other laptop!

Win7 will probably be the next XP.



Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on December 20, 2015, 08:38:16 pm
. Dependencies would always break before I could get everything working.

I run (and have run to 10 years) Slackware which doesn't do all that fancy dependency checking, you have to figure it out yourself :)

But really, changing OS will have a learning curve at the start since its different, once you get past it then your good.  I've found that if your going to make the jump from Win to mac or win7 to 8/10 then the learning curve is about the same as going from win to linux so you may as well make the open move and get it done.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on December 20, 2015, 09:03:15 pm
Linux is fine for those who aren't technical, until it comes to installing something like a printer which isn't supported.
Then don't buy that printer because it won't be supported by the next version of Windows and is most likely slowing your PC down because the PC needs to do all the processing. IF the drivers are actually stable. It is almost like watching a miracle when you see how much Linux supports out of the box without needing to go through an installer which also installes a truck load of crapware on your PC. For example: getting photos from my camera over USB was never easier. In the Windows XP days it only worked every now and then.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: justanothercanuck on December 20, 2015, 09:17:57 pm
i just spent a week trying to fix a win10 install (previously upgraded from 8.x)...  none of the "metro" apps would work, and all the internet fixes didn't seem to help (sfc, dism, some powershell crap).

one thing that bugs me about 8/10 is how they're trying to move all the control panels to metro.  if metro breaks, you're pretty screwed, like i was.

another thing that bugs me is that with UEFI booting, you can't mash F8 and start in safe mode.  you have to boot, then click restart while holding shift.  who the heck thought that was a good idea?

anyways, safe mode and creating new profiles didn't do anything either.  okay, so maybe i'll do an overinstall.  worked for 3.11 through xp...

well, 8/10 don't do overinstalls.  they do "resets".  one uninstalls your apps (but leaves your documents intact), the other one wipes out the entire drive.  again, who thought uninstalling everything was a good idea?  thanks for uninstalling my copy of office, which i didn't save the key for.  i didn't think i needed to, because it was preloaded on the laptop when it was purchased.  nope.  key and install gone.

so yeah, i'm sticking with 7 at home, and i hope to god that my mother doesn't ask me to fix her laptop again any time soon.   |O
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on December 20, 2015, 09:24:41 pm
But really, changing OS will have a learning curve at the start since its different, once you get past it then your good.  I've found that if your going to make the jump from Win to mac or win7 to 8/10 then the learning curve is about the same as going from win to linux so you may as well make the open move and get it done.

For the record, I tried for a whole, a whole year, to run Linux in the form of Fedora. It wasn't like I tried, very hard, to make it work. It was impossible. It was not that I was noob expecting to be happy in 2 hours, no, a whole year. I will try again but I have only some many years left on this Earth and I won't waste it trying to make something work when it isn't possible even if the Linux elite think their shit don't stink and my brain does. What I learned was that Linux is a hobby all in itself and not a tool if you need it for a full desktop environment.

BUT!

I will make it work if the only option is to move to Windows 10!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on December 20, 2015, 09:32:10 pm
The first step is to get a PC with supported hardware. PCs which are offered with Linux pre-installed are a good sign. Next look for a distribution with a good package management and then don't try to break it. Debian is my preferred distribution because it lags a bit behind due to rigorous testing.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on December 20, 2015, 09:53:09 pm
For the record, I tried for a whole, a whole year, to run Linux in the form of Fedora. It wasn't like I tried, very hard, to make it work. It was impossible. It was not that I was noob expecting to be happy in 2 hours, no, a whole year. I will try again but I have only some many years left on this Earth and I won't waste it trying to make something work when it isn't possible even if the Linux elite think their shit don't stink and my brain does. What I learned was that Linux is a hobby all in itself and not a tool if you need it for a full desktop environment.

The windows way of thinking doesn't work for unixoidal OSs. Most of the frustration comes from the fact that most windows users learned where to click over the years. With the migration to linux their knowledge becomes nearly useless. Do you remember when
MS Office got ribbons? Same story.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Marco on December 20, 2015, 10:36:11 pm
Windows 10 finally pushed me to give Linux a real chance for non server use, decided to buy a Dell Chromebook 13 and dual boot Linux on it (great machine, ignoring the hoops you have to jump to install another OS). Really liking it so far, the AA font screw ups you would still run into a couple years ago seem to have finally been hidden (behind the scenes it's a giant mess of course, but as long as I don't have to fix it I don't care). Not everything worked out of the box though, needed to google a bit to get Steam to run on 64 bit xubuntu and to get H.264 support in Firefox (Chromium doesn't have it at all, but with pepper flash it does have better flash support).

ChromeOS isn't bad either for what it is, but exchanging one set of spyware for another wasn't my intention. Definitely competition for Apple for people who just want something to browse the web on and use email ... the Chromebook datamines you, the Macbook mines your wallet.

Soon I'll have my desktop setup to use Windows 10 for gaming and for when I can't avoid it, Linux for everything else.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on December 20, 2015, 10:41:49 pm
Do you remember when
MS Office got ribbons? Same story.

You can thank Steven Sinofsky for that clusterf--k too.

Let me see, MS Office ribbon bar, Windows 8, uBeam investor... it's not looking great.

Anyone remember Clippy? One guess who was overseeing development of the Office product at that time...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on December 20, 2015, 10:51:43 pm
The ribbon interface is the reason for me to stick with Office 2003. I don't want to relearn a program which does the same as the old one (and knowing Microsoft the new version is probably worse).  :palm:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: TerraHertz on December 20, 2015, 11:46:07 pm
Count me among those who think Microsoft Windows was always disgusting. So was DOS btw.

Microsoft: "Let's put all categories of configuration and state information for everything in the Windows OS, GUI and user applications, all mixed together in one giant central database. But with most of it undocumented. Oh, and we'll break it into arbitrary parts, give them ridiculous names, keep the only current version in memory, make sure there's no easy way to save and restore it as a simple, single compact file, and provide a really crap utility to search/edit/debug it. We'll make the data structures it contains arcane and poorly documented, all the better to hide things (like our deliberate 'look and feel' UI cripples - icon position data, cough.) By obfuscation we'll ensure it always grows ever larger and cruftier over time. Essential linkages will be inscrutible numeric CLSIDs, rather than containing any human-comprehensible descriptive text. The mixing of OS and user-app config data will make your working environment of installed software tools totally uncloneable, thus forcing you to frequently waste hours and days rebuilding it all. The operating system and most applications will critically depend on it, which will make it a central point of failure able to take down a whole machine via the slightest corruption. If that should by unlikely chance ever happen, bwahahaha! Not that we insist you regularly buy a new PC and OS or anything!
 We'll call it The Windows Registry. We originally wanted to call it the Microsoft BOGU (Benign Object for Greater Utility) but Mr Gates vetoed that for some reason."

Could go on for pages listing the unacceptable things in Windows and Microsoft's OS development path concepts, but there's no point. Not going to change anyone's views.

The thing I find most amazing about Windows, is that the great majority of users just go along with it, and from either ignorance or confirmation bias, convince themselves that it's mostly wonderful.  As opposed to recognizing Windows is an evil pile of malformed, deliberately obfuscated, bloated, spying crippleware, for which Microsoft should be destroyed with maximum prejudice.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 21, 2015, 12:20:06 am
Is there a way to get W10 to work with unsigned drivers (which doesn't require any dicking around on every reboot) - some initial searching seems to give mixed messages as to whether this is possible.
I have some old hardware that needs it, and it's still not uncommon to get things like eval/demo boards with unsigned drivers.

Can you get W10 to look and feel like W7/XP classic ?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: hendorog on December 21, 2015, 12:37:58 am
Moving to Linux is not a viable solution for non technical users.

It's true that windows is meant for non technical users.  That's one of the many reasons I don't work with it.

From experience, Windows is a poor option for non-technical users.

In my experience almost all non-technical Windows users have someone technical helping them out.
If they don't have help then they almost certainly have a broken PC which is also riddled with viruses.
Or they have very simple requirements - and generally an old PC which was setup by someone else years ago and they haven't changed a thing.

If they have simple requirements, then they could use another OS.
The issues they would face in changing to Linux or OSX would be re-learning different applications, nothing to do with the OS.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MarkF on December 21, 2015, 01:54:12 am
I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now.  I have not installed Windows 10 because of PRIVACY and SECURITY concerns.  I'm surprised this issue has not appeared in this thread. 
Watch this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rczgCmoNSSE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rczgCmoNSSE)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: justanothercanuck on December 21, 2015, 02:21:53 am
I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now.  I have not installed Windows 10 because of PRIVACY and SECURITY concerns.  I'm surprised this issue has not appeared in this thread. 

that horse was beaten to death in the summer.  yes we know that gmx/telemetry exists.  think of it what you will.  most home users don't give a toss.  :-//
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on December 21, 2015, 02:29:20 am
Congratulations for doing exactly as Microsoft wanted.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: justanothercanuck on December 21, 2015, 03:05:17 am
Congratulations for doing exactly as Microsoft wanted.

better than mouthbreathing your displeasure and hatred towards microsoft at every single opportunity.  some of these gmx detractors are borderline delusional. 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on December 21, 2015, 03:43:08 am


Maintain your old electronics freedom and privacy!  If you don't preserve it, it could be lost forever!



Some things in life are more important than others.  ;)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MarkF on December 21, 2015, 03:56:28 am
I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now.  I have not installed Windows 10 because of PRIVACY and SECURITY concerns.  I'm surprised this issue has not appeared in this thread. 

that horse was beaten to death in the summer.  yes we know that gmx/telemetry exists.  think of it what you will.  most home users don't give a toss.  :-//

Best of luck with that!
I prefer NOT to trust Microsoft with my online banking, credit card numbers and passwords.  One would think most home users would be very concerned!!!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: NiHaoMike on December 21, 2015, 04:38:38 am
If they're going to try collecting data, why not write an app to feed them junk? If there's enough junk data mixed in, they might just give up on the whole idea.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:41:13 am
Best of luck with that!
I prefer NOT to trust Microsoft with my online banking, credit card numbers and passwords.  One would think most home users would be very concerned!!!

Most people would not know, unless they actually checked the bank statement and realised what those $99 direct debits were for. Or applied for credit and were refused, or had the sheriff at the door for some fraud committed under their name.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 21, 2015, 04:45:19 am
If they're going to try collecting data, why not write an app to feed them junk? If there's enough junk data mixed in, they might just give up on the whole idea.

MS have the capability to collect privacy, does not mean it will do it. Even the richest person knows he is still bounded by laws, in his multi national business case, international laws.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 21, 2015, 04:50:58 am
Most people would not know, unless they actually checked the bank statement and realised what those $99 direct debits were for. Or applied for credit and were refused, or had the sheriff at the door for some fraud committed under their name.

If MS sells people's password or SSN, even a single employee involved in this process collected some evidence and published these evidence, MS will face international political crisis.
As well, the White House has to face angry governments using MS products, so even NSA will not be stupid enough to allow MS doing that.

There are rumors saying NSA was/is adding backdoors in MS products, but doing in a very careful way, and definitely not targeting common folks.
MS itself? No, definitely no.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amyk on December 21, 2015, 04:57:02 am
Is there a way to get W10 to work with unsigned drivers (which doesn't require any dicking around on every reboot) - some initial searching seems to give mixed messages as to whether this is possible.
I have some old hardware that needs it, and it's still not uncommon to get things like eval/demo boards with unsigned drivers.

Can you get W10 to look and feel like W7/XP classic ?
Theoretically it's always possible to patch out the driver signing check like has been done on previous versions (http://www.ngohq.com/?page=dseo (http://www.ngohq.com/?page=dseo) ), but I'm not sure if anyone has done it for Win10 yet.

Classic theme is not officially available but people have been clever enough to find workarounds:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=113024 (http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=113024)

The biggest concern I'd have with running Win10 is its forced upgrades, which can undo everything you've done to patch and configure things the way you want it.

As for me, I'm still on XP. 8)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 21, 2015, 05:01:33 am
The biggest concern I'd have with running Win10 is its forced upgrades, which can undo everything you've done to patch and configure things the way you want it.

WU is mandatory only on Home version licenses (home, home OEM). On Pro licenses (Pro, Pro OEM, Enterprise), this feature is selectable.
Also, you can disable this feature from registry even with home licenses.
For the worst case, you can edit hosts to confuse WU downloader.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rs20 on December 21, 2015, 05:47:11 am
About a week ago, I finally decided to upgrade, ...

...Today, without letting me know, it automatically upgraded to Win10 :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:.

Hmm, so you asked it to install Windows 10, and it installed Windows 10. My god, I can see what you mean, that is disgusting!!!  :palm:

You can have whatever expectations you want, but the moment that you start yanking power cords out of running PCs and changing your mind about an upgrade halfway through, you lose all rights to complain IMHO. Of course your machine is going to end up in a messed-up state. You may as well deliberately corrupt your hard drive and complain when Windows stops working  :palm:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on December 21, 2015, 06:33:16 am
For the record, I tried for a whole, a whole year, to run Linux in the form of Fedora. It wasn't like I tried, very hard, to make it work. It was impossible. It was not that I was noob expecting to be happy in 2 hours, no, a whole year. I will try again but I have only some many years left on this Earth and I won't waste it trying to make something work when it isn't possible even if the Linux elite think their shit don't stink and my brain does. What I learned was that Linux is a hobby all in itself and not a tool if you need it for a full desktop environment.

The windows way of thinking doesn't work for unixoidal OSs. Most of the frustration comes from the fact that most windows users learned where to click over the years. With the migration to linux their knowledge becomes nearly useless. Do you remember when
MS Office got ribbons? Same story.

This is exactly the kind of attitude toward someone like me that I was referring to. Please read again that I spent a year on it, not 1 day, not 1 week, not 1 month, but a year. I compiled my own kernel, compiled my own programs to try and make the dependency problems go away, I tried to find alternative programs to do what I wanted to do. I was told you can't do that, stop being a windows noob, stop using modern hardware and use something two years old, use 4 or 5 different distros and boot configurations to do the specific things needed. In other words, if you need to do something Linux can't do, you are an idiot. I have zero respect for the Linux elite and their illogical and snobbish religious zeal over something that doesn't work as a full desktop OS. At least that was the state at the time I tried it.

Your answer is just the typical answer to those who you think didn't try, just because you think Linux can do anything and everything. Too bad it can't unless what you want to accomplish with Linux is to learn how to compile and fix dependencies as the reason to use Linux instead of getting all the things done I have listed. I prefer to have one computer, one OS, one configuration to get things done. I can't waste time having three different setups, or more, just to do what I can do with one right now.

Do I respect MS? NO! Is there anything I have run into with windows that I want or need to do that requires me to do multiboot configurations like is needed for me to do with Linux? NO! Will I move to Win10 if Win7 can't continue for me as it is? NO! I will put up with the aholes and the "holier than thou" elitists who do nothing but berate anyone who tries to use Linux in the real world. I might even actually dump everything I have and own and go Mac  :scared:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 21, 2015, 06:37:12 am
Hmm, so you asked it to install Windows 10, and it installed Windows 10. My god, I can see what you mean, that is disgusting!!!  :palm:

It keeps nagging me, so I allowed it to do so. I deliberately deleted Win10 setup files so that I thought I can fool Windows to never nag me.
It turns out it halted, then an automatic system restore fixed it.
A couple weeks later, it attempted to install it again without my approval. That's what I was never expected.

Edit:
I have a power loss protected SSD installed, and I do not keep design documents in it. I have a home gigabit NAS system.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on December 21, 2015, 06:44:13 am
Congratulations for doing exactly as Microsoft wanted.

better than mouthbreathing your displeasure and hatred towards microsoft at every single opportunity.  some of these gmx detractors are borderline delusional.

There is a general policy here on the forums to not insult people.

MS has stated that the spying will be used, and you cannot turn it off. I have had to force W10 updates off my computers 5 times, and MS finds another way to sneak it in with some obscure security update. It is behavior equal to a Trojan horse, or virus, or even more a rootkit. Even when I say no to MS that I don't want to "upgrade" and when I disable the updates to prevent their telemetry files and back doors, they try and shove them back with secret games. I think this proves beyond a doubt that MS is not acting in the best interests of their customers but rather to their best interests solely and are acting directly against my explicit desire to not have them interfere with my computer .

I now expect you to insult me as it seems that anyone who sees these behaviors as a problem as below your level of intellect and morality. It seems to be your pattern.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on December 21, 2015, 06:49:18 am
The biggest concern I'd have with running Win10 is its forced upgrades, which can undo everything you've done to patch and configure things the way you want it.

WU is mandatory only on Home version licenses (home, home OEM). On Pro licenses (Pro, Pro OEM, Enterprise), this feature is selectable.
Also, you can disable this feature from registry even with home licenses.
For the worst case, you can edit hosts to confuse WU downloader.

So you say that MS is not doing anything and we should not be worried, but then discuss how to fix the worst of the problems? Do you know what logic is?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on December 21, 2015, 06:54:59 am
So you say that MS is not doing anything and we should not be worried, but then discuss how to fix the worst of the problems? Do you know what logic is?

MS suck on some aspects, but I stand unbiased. Where it sucks sucks, where it does not suck does not suck.

Edit: I know there are backdoors in the other parts of Windows 10, but I was replying amyk on mandatory WU.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on December 21, 2015, 08:15:50 am
I am getting the feeling that somewhere down the track, the words "Windows 10" and "Class Action" are going to appear together in some headlines.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: miguelvp on December 21, 2015, 10:26:34 am
I am getting the feeling that somewhere down the track, the words "Windows 10" and "Class Action" are going to appear together in some headlines.

I doubt it. Haven't seen one against say: Google, Facebook.

Data mining is here to stay, it doesn't mean they actually have factual information but trends are ok to store and track.

It's a brave new world!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on December 21, 2015, 11:37:41 am
Your answer is just the typical answer to those who you think didn't try, just because you think Linux can do anything and everything. Too bad it can't unless what you want to accomplish with Linux is to learn how to compile and fix dependencies as the reason to use Linux instead of getting all the things done I have listed. I prefer to have one computer, one OS, one configuration to get things done. I can't waste time having three different setups, or more, just to do what I can do with one right now.

Sorry, but you got me completely wrong. I didn't say that!  I've said that linux as any other unix based OS requires re-learning of everything. If linux is the wrong tool for you then look for another one. But please don't assume that I'm what you call "linux elite".
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on December 21, 2015, 11:54:09 am
MS has stated that the spying will be used, and you cannot turn it off. I have had to force W10 updates off my computers 5 times, and MS finds another way to sneak it in with some obscure security update. It is behavior equal to a Trojan horse, or virus, or even more a rootkit. Even when I say no to MS that I don't want to "upgrade" and when I disable the updates to prevent their telemetry files and back doors, they try and shove them back with secret games. I think this proves beyond a doubt that MS is not acting in the best interests of their customers but rather to their best interests solely and are acting directly against my explicit desire to not have them interfere with my computer .

Please see my post about disabling the update tool and preventing a new install via automatic updates.

BTW, a German consumer protection organization is going to sue MS for the "enforced" Win10 upgrade   :-+
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on December 21, 2015, 12:08:26 pm
For the record, I tried for a whole, a whole year, to run Linux in the form of Fedora. It wasn't like I tried, very hard, to make it work. It was impossible. It was not that I was noob expecting to be happy in 2 hours, no, a whole year. I will try again but I have only some many years left on this Earth and I won't waste it trying to make something work when it isn't possible even if the Linux elite think their shit don't stink and my brain does. What I learned was that Linux is a hobby all in itself and not a tool if you need it for a full desktop environment.

The windows way of thinking doesn't work for unixoidal OSs. Most of the frustration comes from the fact that most windows users learned where to click over the years. With the migration to linux their knowledge becomes nearly useless. Do you remember when
MS Office got ribbons? Same story.

This is exactly the kind of attitude toward someone like me that I was referring to. Please read again that I spent a year on it, not 1 day, not 1 week, not 1 month, but a year. I compiled my own kernel, compiled my own programs to try and make the dependency problems go away, I tried to find alternative programs to do what I wanted to do.
I agree there is a lot of dumb shit going on in the Linux world and especially with programmers who think you always need to upgrade to the latest version (which breaks other stuff). For example: I'm using Debian and when looking for an e-mail client I wanted to try Evolution. However the latest version uses libraries which aren't supported by the version of Debian I'm using. I decided to use Thunderbird instead. So yes, sometimes you just have to go with the flow and look for a way which works. I have a Windows XP VM running 100% of the time for stuff that isn't supported in Linux. When I write code for ARM microcontrollers the IDE and compiler run on Linux but the programming tool runs in Windows XP.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Srbel on December 21, 2015, 01:40:45 pm
You need to send a blood sample to Microsoft in order to use Windows 10.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 08, 2016, 05:49:46 am
More evidence on what Microsoft is up to with their back door spying:

http://bgr.com/2016/01/05/microsoft-windows-10-spying-2015-user-data/ (http://bgr.com/2016/01/05/microsoft-windows-10-spying-2015-user-data/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on February 08, 2016, 06:57:38 am
Quote
The biggest concern I'd have with running Win10 is its forced upgrades, which can undo everything you've done to patch and configure things the way you want it.

The simplest way to stop the forced updates it to tell windows 10 your network connection is metered.

relevant articles
http://www.infoworld.com/article/2970172/microsoft-windows/block-forced-windows-10-updates-using-a-metered-connection.html (http://www.infoworld.com/article/2970172/microsoft-windows/block-forced-windows-10-updates-using-a-metered-connection.html)

http://www.howtogeek.com/224471/how-to-prevent-windows-10-from-automatically-downloading-updates/ (http://www.howtogeek.com/224471/how-to-prevent-windows-10-from-automatically-downloading-updates/)

Yeah...my XPs run fine too
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 08, 2016, 07:11:50 am
I can't understand why anyone would want an OS you have to fight with to make it act in a non-invasive, privacy respecting manner. I'll be sticking with Windows 7 until Microsoft learns to keep their greedy noses out of my business. If they never do, then so be it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 08, 2016, 07:14:58 am
I can't understand why anyone would want an OS you have to fight with to make it act in a non-invasive, privacy respecting manner. I'll be sticking with Windows 7 until Microsoft learns to keep their greedy noses out of my business. If they never do, then so be it.

Because as per Wintel collaboration, from Skylake (and equivalent AMD platforms, possibly Zen), Windows 7 will not be officially supported.
You can back port Win10 drivers and boot image back to Win7, but not everyone can do that, and that is illegal as well.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 08, 2016, 07:20:03 am
rdl:

Please be aware that many updates for W7 and W8 are just to add the capabilities for the spying that W10 provides.

http://www.ghacks.net/2016/01/26/block-all-windows-10-components-on-windows-7-and-8/ (http://www.ghacks.net/2016/01/26/block-all-windows-10-components-on-windows-7-and-8/)
https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows (https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows)
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on February 08, 2016, 07:29:00 am
Hmm, what I did first when I installed Win 10 is I blocked all network addresses that Microsoft is using on my firewall - NOT Windows firewall and NOT in "hosts" file on your PC but your physical firewall. Please note that some Windows services use IP addresses hard-coded into parts of OS to bypass possible spoofing in which case bot IP and DNS name need to be blocked by blacklisting it on your firewall.

Example of short list:

65.52.108.0/14 #update.microsoft.com, licensing.md.mp.microsoft.com, v10.vortex-win.data.microsoft.com. Update has an alternate in another range.
104.40.0.0/13
204.79.196.0/23 #Start menu searches.
23.93.0.0/13
157.54.0.0/15
157.60.0.0/16
191.236.0.0/14
207.46.0.0/16
131.253.62.0/23
131.253.64.0/18
131.253.61.0/24 #login.live.com
131.253.128.0/17
191.232.0.0/14 #settings-win.data.microsoft.com

157.56.0.0/14 #sls.update.microsoft.com
191.232.0.0/14 #windowsupdate.microsoft.com


# [Block M$]
 # [Block M$]
127.0.0.1  dns.msftncsi.com
127.0.0.1  ipv6.msftncsi.com
127.0.0.1  win10.ipv6.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  ipv6.msftncsi.com.edgesuite.net
127.0.0.1  a978.i6g1.akamai.net
127.0.0.1  win10.ipv6.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  en-us.appex-rf.msn.com
127.0.0.1  v10.vortex-win.data.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  client.wns.windows.com
127.0.0.1  wildcard.appex-rf.msn.com.edgesuite.net
127.0.0.1  v10.vortex-win.data.metron.life.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  wns.notify.windows.com.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  americas2.notify.windows.com.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  travel.tile.appex.bing.com
127.0.0.1  any.edge.bing.com
127.0.0.1  fe3.delivery.mp.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  fe3.delivery.dsp.mp.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  ssw.live.com
127.0.0.1  ssw.live.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  login.live.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  directory.services.live.com
127.0.0.1  directory.services.live.com.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  bl3302.storage.live.com
127.0.0.1  skyapi.live.net
127.0.0.1  bl3302geo.storage.dkyprod.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  skyapi.skyprod.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  skydrive.wns.windows.com
127.0.0.1  register.mesh.com
127.0.0.1  BN1WNS2011508.wns.windows.com
127.0.0.1  settings-win.data.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  settings.data.glbdns2.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  OneSettings-bn2.metron.live.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  watson.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  watson.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  vortex.data.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  vortex-win.data.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  redir.metaservices.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  choice.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  choice.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  df.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  services.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  sqm.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  watson.ppe.telemetry.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  telemetry.appex.bing.net
127.0.0.1  telemetry.urs.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  telemetry.appex.bing.net:443
127.0.0.1  settings-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  survey.watson.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  watson.live.com
127.0.0.1  watson.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  statsfe2.ws.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  corpext.msitadfs.glbdns2.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  compatexchange.cloudapp.net
127.0.0.1  cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net
127.0.0.1  a-0001.a-msedge.net
127.0.0.1  statsfe2.update.microsoft.com.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  sls.update.microsoft.com.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  fe2.update.microsoft.com.akadns.net
127.0.0.1  diagnostics.support.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  corp.sts.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  statsfe1.ws.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  pre.footprintpredict.com
127.0.0.1  i1.services.social.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  i1.services.social.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
127.0.0.1  feedback.windows.com
127.0.0.1  feedback.microsoft-hohm.com
127.0.0.1  feedback.search.microsoft.com
127.0.0.1  preview.msn.com
127.0.0.1  ad.doubleclick.net
127.0.0.1  ads.msn.com
127.0.0.1  ads1.msads.net
127.0.0.1  a.ads1.msn.com
127.0.0.1  a.ads2.msn.com
127.0.0.1  adnexus.net
127.0.0.1  adnxs.com
127.0.0.1  az361816.vo.msecnd.net
127.0.0.1  az512334.vo.msecnd.net
# [End Block M$]
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: crispy_tofu on February 08, 2016, 08:00:25 am
...many updates for W7 and W8 are just to add the capabilities for the spying that W10 provides.
Screw it, I'm going back to that other Windows version that no-one talks about...  :scared:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 08, 2016, 08:14:42 am
Yes, I'm well aware that Microsoft has been attempting to back port their "telemetry" capabilities. I watch the updates like a hawk.

I plan to keep one Windows computer just for games and it may eventually have to use Windows 10, but if so it's ability to connect to the internet will be severely limited. Pretty much everything else I need can be done with Linux. I am not looking forward to converting 8 TB of data files on six drives from NTFS though.

I saw somewhere that through other companies Microsoft owns they have over a thousand websites they can connect through. I'm not sure it will be possible to be certain of blocking them all.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on February 08, 2016, 08:34:26 am
It is easy to identify all sites that Windows is trying to contact - just have Windows computer on your network and log every IP/DNS address it is trying to contact with Wireshark or dedicated machine/router. This way you cannot miss any sites it will try to contact. Of course you cannot guarantee that new sites will be introduced but in order to add new sites MS will have to push them through their update system. So essentially it is cat and mouse situation. Every update installed on your PC potentially adds another privacy breach.

Potential solution is to have one Windows 10 machine on your network without any applications or other software installed and then immediately block any IP address it is trying to communicate to for all other PCs  on your local network. I think you can do it with an IDS software like Snort.

It maybe possible to have several Windows 10 machines running at different locations and track their botnet access points in real time. If list is shared openly then everyone could use as automatic blacklist for their firewalls. Exactly same system is used to block entire mail servers that used to send SPAM. Very old, reliable solution that can easily be crowdsourced! We can fight back when we have will.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on February 08, 2016, 09:19:54 am
If they're going to try collecting data, why not write an app to feed them junk? If there's enough junk data mixed in, they might just give up on the whole idea.
I like the idea but would that be borderline illegal?
Some of those anti hacker laws are so general that I would be worried about writing any script that purposely sends unwanted data to a corporation.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on February 08, 2016, 03:40:21 pm
Ok, I only use Windows for gaming so this isn't that big an issue foe me but am I getting the wrong impression from this thread that turning off all the data mining options doesn't actually stop Windows 10 sending the info to MS?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 08, 2016, 03:59:26 pm
...many updates for W7 and W8 are just to add the capabilities for the spying that W10 provides.
Screw it, I'm going back to that other Windows version that no-one talks about...  :scared:
XP? XP was the best Windows, which is not saying much. I have a Windows 7 in a VM which I use for when the app isn't supported anywhere else (OS X or Linux), will stick with it for as long as I can, and if I can't run Windows 7 anymore I guess that's it no more Windows for me.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HAL-42b on February 08, 2016, 04:05:20 pm
Ok, I only use Windows for gaming so this isn't that big an issue foe me but am I getting the wrong impression from this thread that turning off all the data mining options doesn't actually stop Windows 10 sending the info to MS?

That is correct. Extensively documented on other forums.

Also downgrading to previous versions of Windows won't save you.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on February 08, 2016, 04:27:59 pm
Quote
Potential solution is to have one Windows 10 machine on your network without any applications or other software installed and then immediately block any IP address it is trying to communicate to for all other PCs  on your local network. I think you can do it with an IDS software like Snort.

Time for a new breed of routers with snort built in a'la :  http://elatov.github.io/2015/08/running-snort-on-dd-wrt/ (http://elatov.github.io/2015/08/running-snort-on-dd-wrt/)

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 08, 2016, 04:47:54 pm
Also downgrading to previous versions of Windows won't save you.

Why is that?

I wouldn't trust Windows 8, but I thought Windows 7 was okay as long as those few well known (and any future) telemetry backporting updates were avoided.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on February 08, 2016, 05:01:28 pm
Time for a new breed of routers with snort built in a'la :  http://elatov.github.io/2015/08/running-snort-on-dd-wrt/ (http://elatov.github.io/2015/08/running-snort-on-dd-wrt/)

Why on earth would you need that for this? Not bad mouthing Snort or this project at all but it just seems overkill when all you need to do is find out what IPs/URLs and ports to block.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AF6LJ on February 08, 2016, 05:09:52 pm
Count me among those who think Microsoft Windows was always disgusting. So was DOS btw.

Microsoft: "Let's put all categories of configuration and state information for everything in the Windows OS, GUI and user applications, all mixed together in one giant central database. But with most of it undocumented. Oh, and we'll break it into arbitrary parts, give them ridiculous names, keep the only current version in memory, make sure there's no easy way to save and restore it as a simple, single compact file, and provide a really crap utility to search/edit/debug it. We'll make the data structures it contains arcane and poorly documented, all the better to hide things (like our deliberate 'look and feel' UI cripples - icon position data, cough.) By obfuscation we'll ensure it always grows ever larger and cruftier over time. Essential linkages will be inscrutible numeric CLSIDs, rather than containing any human-comprehensible descriptive text. The mixing of OS and user-app config data will make your working environment of installed software tools totally uncloneable, thus forcing you to frequently waste hours and days rebuilding it all. The operating system and most applications will critically depend on it, which will make it a central point of failure able to take down a whole machine via the slightest corruption. If that should by unlikely chance ever happen, bwahahaha! Not that we insist you regularly buy a new PC and OS or anything!
 We'll call it The Windows Registry. We originally wanted to call it the Microsoft BOGU (Benign Object for Greater Utility) but Mr Gates vetoed that for some reason."

Could go on for pages listing the unacceptable things in Windows and Microsoft's OS development path concepts, but there's no point. Not going to change anyone's views.

The thing I find most amazing about Windows, is that the great majority of users just go along with it, and from either ignorance or confirmation bias, convince themselves that it's mostly wonderful.  As opposed to recognizing Windows is an evil pile of malformed, deliberately obfuscated, bloated, spying crippleware, for which Microsoft should be destroyed with maximum prejudice.
The Windows registry files has always been my main beef with Windows.
I preferred the .nix and OS/2 way of doing things.. Configuration files were easy to edit, you could comment them and move on. The five registry files are security through obscurity.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 08, 2016, 05:39:13 pm
What I would like to know is how Microsoft is getting away with this behavior? It is illegal, I think, in most of the world to tamper with a person's computer to gain access to their data. They are even trying to do against my express wishes to avoid their intrusion.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on February 08, 2016, 05:43:46 pm
What I would like to know is how Microsoft is getting away with this behavior? It is illegal, I think, in most of the world to tamper with a person's computer to gain access to their data. They are even trying to do against my express wishes to avoid their intrusion.

Most likely we agreed to it when we pretended we read the EULA to get the OS to install :-\
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 08, 2016, 05:46:21 pm
EULAs are not valid in some countries, and I don't think the EULA for WIN7 said anything about MS allowing them to install spying software and access to all your files.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HAL-42b on February 08, 2016, 05:49:39 pm
What I would like to know is how Microsoft is getting away with this behavior? It is illegal, I think, in most of the world to tamper with a person's computer to gain access to their data. They are even trying to do against my express wishes to avoid their intrusion.

They are getting away with it because they are an American corporation doing what the American government tells them to do.

America has fought wars for their corporations. I thought this was well known in South America.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 08, 2016, 05:49:45 pm
Alexei.Polkhanov:
Any idea if any site has a constantly updated list of IPs to block?



More:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/02/06/1550249/even-with-telemetry-disabled-windows-10-talks-to-dozens-of-microsoft-servers (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/02/06/1550249/even-with-telemetry-disabled-windows-10-talks-to-dozens-of-microsoft-servers)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 08, 2016, 05:56:25 pm
They are getting away with it because they are an American corporation doing what the American government tells them to do.
America has fought wars for their corporations. I thought this was well known in South America.

Of course I know that part of it.  :palm: The world is a bit bigger than the Americas and many other countries have ruled against EULAs and Microsoft in the post. I think the USA should change its name to UCA, United Corporations of America.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 08, 2016, 06:03:21 pm
Is there anyway to permanently prevent Win10 from getting into my hard drive?

Yes. Try this:

GWX Stopper
http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html (http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: miguelvp on February 08, 2016, 06:05:33 pm
Is there anyway to permanently prevent Win10 from getting into my hard drive?

Yes. Try this:

GWX Stopper
http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html (http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html)
:-DD
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 08, 2016, 06:12:37 pm
I don't think is any one method to fix this problem permanently. The tools I have been using up until now include:
https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/459263/new (https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/459263/new)
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)
https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows (https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows)

and checking the information about each update that is available before installing it or hiding it. Even then, the hidden updates seem to pop up again later and need to be killed again. MS updates is the new whack a mole game.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: cimmo on February 09, 2016, 04:57:58 am
Pretty much everything else I need can be done with Linux. I am not looking forward to converting 8 TB of data files on six drives from NTFS though.

Why would you need to?
Linux reads and writes to NTFS volumes with no dramas whatsoever (and allows formatting and all sorts of disk management as well).

I don't know why knowledgable folks here cannot learn the lesson that Micro$oft is preaching. The only solution to Windows is some other operating system and Linux (in whatever flavour suits) is a perfectly valid alternative for almost everyone.

Just a few weeks ago I built a skylake machine and installed Ubuntu Mate 15:10. A few minor tweaks and it's rock solid, no worries.
And it boots in <9 seconds.

BTW, I HAD to build this machine from parts because it is now impossible to buy a new pre-built PC from a branded manufacturer WITHOUT Windows pre-installed (and licence fee paid). This sort of market manipulation/monopoly abuse is just not on and I will not be a party to it (MS provides lower cost licences to these OEMs on the proviso that they do not offer for sale any PC with an alternative OS).

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on February 09, 2016, 05:11:42 am
BTW, I HAD to build this machine from parts because it is now impossible to buy a new pre-built PC from a branded manufacturer WITHOUT Windows pre-installed (and licence fee paid). This sort of market manipulation/monopoly abuse is just not on and I will not be a party to it (MS provides lower cost licences to these OEMs on the proviso that they do not offer for sale any PC with an alternative OS).

You know you can return the license for refund at least in Europe. I would be very interested to hear of cases and step by step instructions on how to do it in North America.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: cimmo on February 09, 2016, 05:24:27 am
BTW, I HAD to build this machine from parts because it is now impossible to buy a new pre-built PC from a branded manufacturer WITHOUT Windows pre-installed (and licence fee paid). This sort of market manipulation/monopoly abuse is just not on and I will not be a party to it (MS provides lower cost licences to these OEMs on the proviso that they do not offer for sale any PC with an alternative OS).

You know you can return the license for refund at least in Europe. I would be very interested to hear of cases and step by step instructions on how to do it in North America.
Perhaps such a thing is possible.
And the Acer US website also says it is  possible to get a Windows licence refund.
But this is how they want to do it:
"It is possible to receive a refund for the Microsoft Windows Operating System that shipped with your computer. You will need to contact Acer support and schedule the computer to come to our service center.

The computer will need to be shipped to our facility at your expense. We will then remove the Operating System from the hard disk drive and remove the Certificate of Authenticity from the computer.  The computer will then be shipped back to you, and you will be able to install the Operating System of your choice."

Sure, you can get possibly get a refund (and pay the shipping both ways to get it done), but buying a PC in the first place WITHOUT Windows?
Nope. That's apparently too hard - which is precisely the way Micro$oft wants it to be.
 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 09, 2016, 06:11:54 am
I haven't bought a factory built PC with Windows pre-installed since 1996. Anyone of reasonable intelligence that can operate a screwdriver can easily do the same. However, it's hard to beat the price of a Walmart special, assuming it lasts more than a year or so. These days most people probably consider a PC as disposable anyway.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 09, 2016, 06:13:44 am
I haven't bought a factory built PC with Windows pre-installed since 1996. Anyone of reasonable intelligence that can operate a screwdriver can easily do the same. However, it's hard to beat the price of a Walmart special, assuming it lasts more than a year or so. These days most people probably consider a PC as disposable anyway.

License of discounted Windows OEM license prohibits installation of Windows OEM by end user, except for Windows 8.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 09, 2016, 06:41:05 am
Who would voluntarily use Windows 8?

I'm actually not at all sure what you're trying to say in response to my post.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 09, 2016, 06:44:38 am
Who would voluntarily use Windows 8?

I'm actually not at all sure what you're trying to say in response to my post.

I meant if you want to install Windows, the cheaper way is to get it built with a M$ certified dealer.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 09, 2016, 07:12:37 am
As far as I know, Microsoft sells the Windows license at a discount price only to very large OEMs (in exchange for them conforming to many restrictions). They probably pay $50 or less. I believe smaller system builders pay the same price for an OEM disk as anyone else, which is about $140. So I guess I don't see a cost advantage. Doesn't matter much any more since Microsoft no longer offers an operating system worth using (actually, Windows 7 OEM disks are still available, but probably not for much longer).


edit: Okay, I see now where you say "M$ certified dealer", maybe those do get a better price.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 09, 2016, 03:14:47 pm
I haven't bought a factory built PC with Windows pre-installed since 1996. Anyone of reasonable intelligence that can operate a screwdriver can easily do the same.

My thoughts exactly. In Brazil this is called "grey market" and there are many shops that will assemble a PC to your spec, using the parts you choose as long as they can buy them.  Most the times they ship these PCs with Ubuntu, but pirated copies of Windows are also quite common.

The only factory-built PC I ever bought was a Gateway 2000 386DX/25, exactly 23 years ago. After that I have always built my own PCs. I fugyure I can get a much better "bang per buck" if I buy all the components myself and just screw them together. I've even made some money on the side doing this for family and friends.

BTW, I am still using Windows 7, and I have no plans to move from it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AF6LJ on February 09, 2016, 03:16:53 pm
What I would like to know is how Microsoft is getting away with this behavior? It is illegal, I think, in most of the world to tamper with a person's computer to gain access to their data. They are even trying to do against my express wishes to avoid their intrusion.

Most likely we agreed to it when we pretended we read the EULA to get the OS to install :-\

Me thinks you are right....
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AF6LJ on February 09, 2016, 03:18:19 pm
What I would like to know is how Microsoft is getting away with this behavior? It is illegal, I think, in most of the world to tamper with a person's computer to gain access to their data. They are even trying to do against my express wishes to avoid their intrusion.

They are getting away with it because they are an American corporation doing what the American government tells them to do.

America has fought wars for their corporations. I thought this was well known in South America.
This is also known to those of us who are living here and are awake and paying attention to what goes on...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on February 09, 2016, 06:34:41 pm
Here at one time MS was selling the OEM version of XP if you were doing a hardware upgrade, so as to reduce the amount of pirate copies of XP ( 1000 computers, one copy of XP on them all with the same key). Discounted, so you would go buy a MS Intellimouse, and get a Cd and COA for a very low price, provided it was for a PC you were not using yourself. So take a friend to pay with your money..........

Did toss away some Win98SE packs away recently, never used and never opened, but bought just in case we needed extra PC's and wanted a key for them. Just bought enough copies so we dropped to the bulk price, was around 25 copies IIRC. Of course doing the assembly and install it was a lot faster to Ghost a single drive rather than run the CD, so was busy for a few minutes testing each assembled unit doing some quick regedit work to put in the key as a initial Qc check.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 09, 2016, 07:35:30 pm
Here at one time MS was selling the OEM version of XP if you were doing a hardware upgrade, so as to reduce the amount of pirate copies of XP ( 1000 computers, one copy of XP on them all with the same key). Discounted, so you would go buy a MS Intellimouse, and get a Cd and COA for a very low price, provided it was for a PC you were not using yourself. So take a friend to pay with your money..........

Did toss away some Win98SE packs away recently, never used and never opened, but bought just in case we needed extra PC's and wanted a key for them. Just bought enough copies so we dropped to the bulk price, was around 25 copies IIRC. Of course doing the assembly and install it was a lot faster to Ghost a single drive rather than run the CD, so was busy for a few minutes testing each assembled unit doing some quick regedit work to put in the key as a initial Qc check.

It also happens in China, called "get genuine kit". It only supplies to dealers, certified or not, but must be working in a computer mall.
There is a way to get free Windows copies, if you know your dealer sold a pirate copy to you. Simply mail your invoice with CD media to MS anti pirate office, then they will ship you a genuine copy.
Of course, your dealer will get in some trouble and will not like you anymore. I got a copy of W7 ultimate through this method 2014.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 09, 2016, 07:48:52 pm
I have one computer that's been running Windows 7 in 30 day trial mode since 2012. It gets updates and everything. If I hadn't paid for the OEM disk, it would have been free.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 10, 2016, 12:56:47 am
I have one computer that's been running Windows 7 in 30 day trial mode since 2012. It gets updates and everything. If I hadn't paid for the OEM disk, it would have been free.

Only with black desktop saying your windows is not a genuine copy.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 10, 2016, 01:14:03 am
I have one computer that's been running Windows 7 in 30 day trial mode since 2012. It gets updates and everything. If I hadn't paid for the OEM disk, it would have been free.

Only with black desktop saying your windows is not a genuine copy.

One non-essential service must be disabled and then it will run indefinitely without the non-genuine warning or black screen, but they will appear after a restart if the 30 day limit has been exceeded.

All you do then is issue the rearm command. It can only be rearmed 3 times (120 days total). After that a (very slightly) more complicated set of commands must be used to gain another 120 days of use. Repeat as necessary to keep running. No 3rd party software is needed, it's all part of a standard Windows 7 install.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Galenbo on February 11, 2016, 09:12:31 am
What I would like to know is how Microsoft is getting away with this behavior? It is illegal,...
Just throw some millions to Hillary and Rubio.
They will define what is legal, or is seen as legal, or is prioritised as illegal.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Galenbo on February 11, 2016, 09:23:56 am
... The only solution to Windows is some other operating system and Linux (in whatever flavour suits) is a perfectly valid alternative for almost everyone.

Just a few weeks ago I built a skylake machine and installed Ubuntu Mate 15:10. A few minor tweaks and it's rock solid, no worries.
And it boots in <9 seconds.
I did that too, works fine to open facebook and print a letter.

But I also want Sketchup + Diptrace + Mouse driver + Saleae LogicAnalyser + Rigol screenshot + Labview + Photoshop + some Embedded C compilers + Epub reader + Wireshark + Teamviewer + Eid + No-Ip Server + MyIPcam extension for my browser ...

Sure for everything "exists" an alternative or solution, but then you have the wrong distro or the wrong installer or the wrong version.
Or you get a linuxised version of a program that remembers me to windows 3.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: ElektroQuark on February 11, 2016, 09:37:13 am
Yep. The show stopper for my is that Linux printing really sucks. I'm used to QImage for printing high quality photographs, no alternative.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HAL-42b on February 11, 2016, 09:39:32 am
I did that too, works fine to open facebook and print a letter.

But I also want Sketchup + Diptrace + Mouse driver + Saleae LogicAnalyser + Rigol screenshot + Labview + Photoshop + some Embedded C compilers + Epub reader + Wireshark + Teamviewer + Eid + No-Ip Server + MyIPcam extension for my browser ...

Sure for everything "exists" an alternative or solution, but then you have the wrong distro or the wrong installer or the wrong version.
Or you get a linuxised version of a program that remembers me to windows 3.

This is like being in an abusive relationship and looking for excuses not to divorce.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Galenbo on February 11, 2016, 09:57:40 am
This is like being in an abusive relationship and looking for excuses not to divorce.

The only solution to permanently get rid of the (limited) abuse, is become/staying single...
:-)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 11, 2016, 10:08:37 am
Hackintoshing is another alternative many people don't consider. Now days it's fairly easy and OS X is a great OS. About the only thing that reports back to the mothership is the Spotlight because it searches the Web, but you can disable that easily (it's just a checkbox).

MS has enjoyed their desktop monopoly for far too long. All most people want is a slim OS that acts like XP did, with some updated modern features. MS has been making dick moves since Vista, but people still buy into it. Inertia is a helluva thing. If you're a gamer than you're pretty much stuck. DirectX has that on lockdown.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 11, 2016, 11:58:20 am
"Windows is getting disgusting "

The solution is simple: don't use Windows.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rickselectricalprojects on February 12, 2016, 08:57:06 am
Linux is great until you try to print something out...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amyk on February 12, 2016, 12:16:18 pm
"Windows is getting disgusting "

The solution is simple: don't use Windows.
Or just use the version before it started "getting disgusting"...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 12, 2016, 02:29:44 pm

"Windows is getting disgusting "

The solution is simple: don't use Windows.
Or just use the version before it started "getting disgusting"...

Not much is compatible with Windows 3.11 though...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on February 12, 2016, 02:52:52 pm

"Windows is getting disgusting "

The solution is simple: don't use Windows.
Or just use the version before it started "getting disgusting"...

Not much is compatible with Windows 3.11 though...

Windows 3.11 ... ?

Blooooooooody luuuxury, I tell you.

We had to get up in the morning, half an hour before we went to bed, work 29 hours a day down at mill, then come home to Windows 3.1.......
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 12, 2016, 03:00:52 pm
 You had it easy then. Back in my day you didn't even get Windows. No MS-DOS either. If you wanted a program in your computer, you typed it in by hand, on a hex keypad. ANd there was no way to save it when you turned the power off (or it went out).

 I just threw out a set of Windows 3.11 floppies.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on February 12, 2016, 03:03:42 pm
We dreamed of having a hex keypad!!

All we had was a pair of toggle switches that we had to wire up to enter machine code in binary two bits at a time.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 12, 2016, 03:07:13 pm
 You had TOGGLE SWITCHES? All we had were phone plugs and a big patch panel.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on February 12, 2016, 03:09:51 pm
When I say toggle switches, I mean they were two bent nails and a rusty coffee tin that we shaped into toggle switches!!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 12, 2016, 03:11:48 pm
You had patch panels? All we had were rooms full of women with mechanical calculators!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on February 12, 2016, 03:13:24 pm
Our calculators were our toes!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 12, 2016, 03:17:34 pm
 :-DD :-DD

I actually DID have nail and coffee tin switches - besides Legos (and in my day we had only various size rectangular bricks, none of this fancy formed shape stuff!) my other favorite 'toy' was a box full of lantern batteries, lights, and home made switches. My blanket forts had working lights in them. Even though our camper was a simple tent on wheels type, with no electric or anything, we always had a light. It all kid of went by the wayside once I got old enough for the various Radio Shack (Tandy) experimenter kits and I discovered the rest of electronics. But is it any wonder I went for an EE degree - it's what I wanted from the moment I learned what a college degree was and what someone who worked with electronics did.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on February 12, 2016, 03:24:27 pm
... Try telling that to the kids of today - and they won't believe you!



(I do)
Title: Nagware and spyware, now core part of Windows!
Post by: xarragon on February 13, 2016, 09:57:47 pm
In early 2000 "spyware" and "adware" was something clueless computer users caught by mistake and that had to be removed. It was something bad. Today it is apparently such a vital part of the "Windows Experience" that it is built right into the OS, including the nagging! Android, by contrast, has always had this crap. But it is possible to disable and it is a cellphone. And a cellphone has never really belonged to you as much as being part of the carrier's network. Carriers own "your" SIM card and can remotely install and run applications on it, as well as sometimes on the phone. But as the two converges all of the bad stuff from cellphones seems to creep over into the computer; the touch UI:s, the locked boot loaders (Secure Boot) and now the constant surveillance.

Myself I am less affected as I run Linux full-time except for some games since at least 10 years back. I don't like Apple products either but they generally serve their users well (not me) and doesn't have a vested interest in violating your privacy. If I was still using Windows I would feel betrayed though; this is my PC, not some overpriced, carrier-locked device that you have to bully people into buying.. So that once they're paying a total of $2000 for that privilege, spending $100 per year in the app store seems rational; to get the most out of it.

And this loss of trust is troublesome, because if they are prepared to start treating their existing, paying customers like your average online advertisement network does.. How will they use their power over Secure Boot, the keys to the boot process? Already, the previously mandatory disable option has been made optional for the latest version. To prevent "the Windows XP fiasco" where none upgraded, they could lock out previous Windows versions as well as all third-party OS:es.

And the Linux world is far from perfect. In an effort to "simplify" it large parts of it has become unnecessarily complex, with badly engineered solutions that starts to look like Microsoft Windows under the hood. Applications like Firefox are integrating "sponsorware" and is removing privacy-enhanching features. And in the light of the second Crypto Wars we need confidence in our own devices more than ever.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HAL-42b on February 13, 2016, 10:28:47 pm
There are increasing attacks on Linux. Sabotage, subversion, Linus Torvalds has been served a National Security Letter, Ian Murdock died under suspicious circumstances after encounter with the police...

Somebody does not want this Open Source thing any more and is ready to remove the velvet glove.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 13, 2016, 10:42:21 pm

There are increasing attacks on Linux. Sabotage, subversion, Linus Torvalds has been served a National Security Letter, Ian Murdock died under suspicious circumstances after encounter with the police...

Somebody does not want this Open Source thing any more and is ready to remove the velvet glove.

Ian Murdock was drunk, trying to break into a house and police detained him while they investigated; whereby he started smashing his head into the metal cage in the back of the cruiser. An ambulance was called and he fought with the EMTs and was taken to the hospital to have a cut on his forehead stitched up. He was then released and *went back* to the same house and again tried to break in. Police responded, he was taken to jail and thrown in the drunk tank. He was released that morning, where he went home and a few days later offed himself.

There's not some big conspiracy here. If the government wanted him dead, he would just disappear or have an "accident" or something. No, in this case, Ian had either a substance abuse problem or was an EDP. No police brutality. No assassination. Nothing.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HAL-42b on February 13, 2016, 11:21:12 pm
You seem very certain about the sequence of events around that death.

Surely you must have explanations for other deaths too.

Aaron Swartz, hacker, decided to kill himself out of boredom.
Barnaby Jack, hacker, just checked out without explanation, how rude.
Josh Greenberg, pirate, definitely not foul play or suicide, pinky promise.
Jonathan James, hacker, decided to shoot himself because he missed his childhood days spent in prison.

These are just the hackers... I don't even get into the political ones.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 14, 2016, 12:50:38 am
You seem very certain about the sequence of events around that death.

Surely you must have explanations for other deaths too.

Aaron Swartz, hacker, decided to kill himself out of boredom.
Barnaby Jack, hacker, just checked out without explanation, how rude.
Josh Greenberg, pirate, definitely not foul play or suicide, pinky promise.
Jonathan James, hacker, decided to shoot himself because he missed his childhood days spent in prison.

These are just the hackers... I don't even get into the political ones.

These people developing Windows cracks and TrueCrype/VeraCrypt are still alive.
BTW, smart guys do do silly things, such as Mr. Reiser, the legend in high performance file systems, ended up serving 15 years in jail.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HAL-42b on February 14, 2016, 01:16:04 am
I would agree that Reiser was locked in for his crimes. 

However we still have Nils Torvalds testifying in front of the European Parliament and every other indication that Linus has indeed received a National Security Letter.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 14, 2016, 01:31:09 am
I would agree that Reiser was locked in for his crimes. 

However we still have Nils Torvalds testifying in front of the European Parliament and every other indication that Linus has indeed received a National Security Letter.

So what? I receive FBI warning email every year through our IT department, they send emails to everyone who download videos from the internet.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: grifftech on February 14, 2016, 02:09:24 am
no way to close the upgrade nag on windows 7
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Brumby on February 14, 2016, 02:19:00 am
no way to close the upgrade nag on windows 7

I did.

Once I ran SFC and it came back - but I just repeated my fix and no nag.   :)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 14, 2016, 04:15:30 am
I posted these before but here it is again:

https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat (https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat)
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)

They help keep the whack a mole game down to a minimum.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on February 14, 2016, 09:35:08 am
Funny Linux is a lot easier to install a printer on ( at least not those brain dead abominations that are Winprinter, where the printer is merely an interface and the raster engine and processing is done in the connected PC) by just plugging it in. No HP Experience 500M download, no trial versions of assorted photo editors, paper suppliers added to toolbars, no remote update ( which either does not work, or which downloads a new driver on every startup or login even if it is the same) and no "User Experience enhancement" tool to annoy you after

EVERY




BLOODY





PAGE





PRINTS



along with the "your printer cartridge is not a genuine unit" even with the one supplied with the sealed unit.

Linux, unpack printer, use the quick start page included to remove all the packaging inside ( found a printer at work last week installed by the IT supplier, still with some of those pieces inside, seems nobody had used the front paper feed ever), put in the trial cartridge ( same price as regular one, just 1/10 the capacity with either a physical blocker to take up space, or just a regular cartridge programmed to report lower capacity), plug in and turn on, then wait 3 minutes for the OS to find the driver on the built in list and install support. Then print test page...

Network printers are even easier, just run the CUPS installer and tell it is is a HPGL or PS printer and it does everything for you without actually caring about the printer itself so long as it speaks HPGL or PS. Still have a new HP printer that is using the 4MV driver, and this even supports the new printer doing double sided print the 4MV never could do without flipping the paper over and selecting odd or even print.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: ElektroQuark on February 14, 2016, 09:40:52 am
Maybe to print some text...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 14, 2016, 09:56:41 am
Maybe to print some text...

90% of the computers in our company run Linux (on the desktop). Do you really think we could do this if we were able to print text only?

We print our schematics, datasheets, drawings whatever. And yes, sometimes we do have problems with Linux.
Also Linux isn't perfect. But, at least for us, it works better, faster, efficienter and more reliable than windows.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 14, 2016, 11:51:15 am
"90% of the computers in our company run Linux (on the desktop"

How typical do you think your company is in that regard?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 14, 2016, 11:53:51 am
I run Linux and I do astrophotography, high dynamic range and high resolution image processing of TIFF  and FIT images using mainly PixInsightLE (a Windows program running under WINE) and gimp, and I print them on a Canon inkjet printer without difficulty. Even full-page photo prints. Of course I use the right kinds of papers for photo prints. So I don't understand why some people complain about Linux image printing. It just works. Even over the network, if I remember to actually turn the printer on.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 14, 2016, 11:55:23 am
"90% of the computers in our company run Linux (on the desktop"

How typical do you think your company is in that regard?

Well... if it's good enough for .... MICROSOFT....

google "Microsoft uses linux" and see what you get.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 14, 2016, 12:52:53 pm

"Well... if it's good enough for .... MICROSOFT"

Two points

1, why do you want to be in comparison y of Microsoft, a clueless company by all account?

2. Why would you base your decision on what others use? Do what's good for you. To hell with Microsoft or anybody else. If it is good for you, it is good for you. Have some confidence in your ability to know what's good and what's not good for yourself.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 14, 2016, 01:15:58 pm
"90% of the computers in our company run Linux (on the desktop"

How typical do you think your company is in that regard?

One of the reasons we make money and our company is still standing in a time of economic
malaise, is because we try not to be one of the many typical companies.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 14, 2016, 01:21:21 pm
"because we try not to be one of the many typical companies."

So maybe using your company as an example to substantiate Linux popularity isn't a great idea?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 14, 2016, 01:31:27 pm
"because we try not to be one of the many typical companies."

So maybe using your company as an example to substantiate Linux popularity isn't a great idea?

I really don't see the problem. The price you pay to make the transition from a windows environment to
a Linux environment, should be added to the decision to go for windows which you did in the past.
Don't add it to the cost to switch to Linux. Every company that chooses to go for microsoft knows
that they have to accept vendor lock-in. That's the price you pay for using microsoft.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 14, 2016, 03:30:32 pm
Quote
I really don't see the problem.

You think it is no problem to support the popularity of Linux based on a sample of 1 exceptional company that uses Linux?

Would you then say Windows is great because I found a highly successful company using Windows? Or if I found a failed company that uses Linux?

Quote
Every company that chooses to go for microsoft knows
that they have to accept vendor lock-in. That's the price you pay for using microsoft.

With each decision, you make a different trade-off. There are downside with choosing Linux just as they are downside choosing Linux, however different those downsides may be.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 14, 2016, 03:49:45 pm
Quote
I really don't see the problem.

You think it is no problem to support the popularity of Linux based on a sample of 1 exceptional company that uses Linux?

Would you then say Windows is great because I found a highly successful company using Windows? Or if I found a failed company that uses Linux?

Quote
Every company that chooses to go for microsoft knows
that they have to accept vendor lock-in. That's the price you pay for using microsoft.

With each decision, you make a different trade-off. There are downside with choosing Linux just as they are downside choosing Linux, however different those downsides may be.

The point is, you can't say that Linux has more printing problems than windows.
Most of the printing problems on Linux are caused by printers that are designed to work only with windows.
If you take away that, I dare to say that you'll have less printer problems on Linux.

Even worse, with a windows upgrade, you risk that your printer suddenly isn't supported anymore.


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on February 14, 2016, 03:53:38 pm
I've got to thoroughly agree with dannyf here, even though I am a massive Linux fan. Even for me Windows has it occasional uses where Linux just isn't an option, even if I will admit that's mainly playing games not available on Linux.

And even when it comes to Linux there're upsides and downsides to each specific distro depending on what you want to use it for. I'm not going to use Ubuntu as a build server, I'll use Fedora for that. But I'm going to use Ubuntu or Linux Mint as my main home desktop because third parties support Ubuntu and its derivatives better. And none of these are even amongst my favourite distros, having spent a long time looking after compute clusters and scientific workstations Suse is, but I no longer have the inclination to waste time making things work when it just works on another Linux distro.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 14, 2016, 04:08:17 pm
Quote
Most of the printing problems on Linux are caused by printers that are designed to work only with windows.

Isn't that the point other people were trying to point out for you?

To an end user, all  he cares is that he cannot print on Linux. Whether that's because Linux is fundamentally poor at printing or there is a lack of Linux printer support doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 14, 2016, 04:15:52 pm
Quote
Most of the printing problems on Linux are caused by printers that are designed to work only with windows.

Isn't that the point other people were trying to point out for you?

To an end user, all  he cares is that he cannot print on Linux. Whether that's because Linux is fundamentally poor at printing or there is a lack of Linux printer support doesn't matter.

Wrong. It does matter. Buying a printer that is designed to work with windows only and then starting to complain that Linux doesn't
support it, makes no sense.


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: ElektroQuark on February 14, 2016, 05:09:01 pm
EPSON 1400, to print HIGH quality photo prints. Not doable with Linux. And I REALLY would like to be able to do all my photo process with Linux.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 14, 2016, 05:42:47 pm
EPSON 1400, to print HIGH quality photo prints. Not doable with Linux. And I REALLY would like to be able to do all my photo process with Linux.

First of all, I don't see why an EE should need a high quality photo printer. But if you really insist, trash your Epson 1400 and
buy a professional one. For example, the Epson SC-P9000. It will produce much better photo's... and on Linux.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 14, 2016, 05:50:51 pm
Quote
It will produce much better photo's... and on Linux.

That's really the secrete of Linux being able to support any printer.

:)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 14, 2016, 06:13:07 pm
Quote
First of all, I don't see why an EE should need a high quality photo printer. But if you really insist, trash your Epson 1400 and
buy a professional one. For example, the Epson SC-P9000. It will produce much better photo's... and on Linux.


Really, you don't see how someone can want or need something that you don't agree with? That is your argument for someone who wants to use a specific printer and can't in Linux? I got this all the time when I was trying to use Linux exclusively for a year. I was always told I was using Linux wrongly, I was using hardware not supported, and that I was just being a Windows newb and had no business using computers.

I use my computer to make videos, images, music, documents, websites, programming, work with email, web browsing, watch movies, gaming, etc.

Products used: Adobe CC, Sony Vegas Pro, both with purchased plugins, Steam and all the games I have with it, KiCad, Autodesk Inventor, Reaper, and a bunch of other things. I also calibrate my monitors with a Spyder 3, use a Wacom tablet, Logitech wireless joystick, Brother DCM1512 multifunction printer, an HP Laserjet CP1025nw color printer, SDR radio devices, and a bunch of other generic USB devices.

If anyone can point me to one single Linux distro and all the software that will do everything to that I can do with the above software, there is a finder's fee of a considerable amount. I am betting nobody will be able to collect. If I have no choice in the future but to move to Win10, I will go to Linux and deal with multiboot and the whole BS of trying to make everything  work.

As it is now, the Win10 issue is avoidable, but with some effort. it is a trojan horse, virus,and rootkit all in one. So are the special updates for Win7 that are constantly being pushed as updates that you don't need. Microsoft is acting like hackers trying to botnet your computer and steal your personal data, passwords, and allow illegal search by the government.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on February 14, 2016, 07:04:07 pm
Good enough PC and Virtualbox will solve most aside from the gaming and video editing, though if you go to a Hypervisor and a few VM units that you spin up as needed ( no boot and wait for windows to actually be usable as opposed to showing a desktop) for the various tasks might work better with a modern CPU and enough memory. Enough memory and even video editing is doable in VM, though a SSD will help performance immensely. Games Steam runs natively on most Linux distros, though the video performance will not be as good.

I use a VM or three for those things that are Windows only, and a nice advantage is being able to clone them easily to do things like test new configurations with software, and make a backup that is better than trying to do a rollback to a working version. Also allows you to have different OS versions and such for software that is older, or which does not work on 64 bit versions or which uses software written for certain versions of dot net frameworks which does not work well with later versions. Separate versions avoids DLL hell.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 14, 2016, 07:10:59 pm
I appreciate what you re saying SeanB, but a VM to run Win7 doesn't avoid the problem of windows. Pure Linux or I run Win7. If I need to run it in a VM, then there is a hit in performance, plus I still need to fight the update whack a mole problem.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 14, 2016, 07:27:09 pm
Quote
First of all, I don't see why an EE should need a high quality photo printer. But if you really insist, trash your Epson 1400 and
buy a professional one. For example, the Epson SC-P9000. It will produce much better photo's... and on Linux.

Really, you don't see how someone can want or need something that you don't agree with? That is your argument for someone who wants to use a specific printer and can't in Linux?

Buying a printer that is designed to work with windows only and then starting to complain that Linux doesn't
support it, makes no sense.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on February 14, 2016, 07:27:59 pm
I use an XP VM a lot, avoids that particular problem, and I have a clone in known condition just in case, just takes 8G of disk. There are things that only run on Windows, and things that only run on Unix, and yet more that only run on BSD, with more that only run in Linux. Horses for courses, and at least i get the option of choice as to which one I want to use.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on February 14, 2016, 07:49:19 pm
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1437518 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1437518)


 :popcorn:
Title: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 14, 2016, 08:06:02 pm
Personally, I think OS X is the best of all worlds, combined with VMWare Fusion. I keep a Windows XP and several Linux distros and FreeBSD VMs ready to roll.

For XP, the Unity feature of VMWare lets the Windows apps act like native OS X apps.

If I need to run a Linux X11 app, I either compile it for OS X, or run a headless Linux VM and SSH into it with X11 Forwarding enabled; it will then run in the Linux VM but the actual GUI is handled by XQuartz over SSH, so it appears to be native. It's a pretty sweet solution.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 16, 2016, 02:13:45 pm
Lovely, the OS wars ;) An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Philfreeze on February 16, 2016, 03:10:43 pm
Lovely, the OS wars ;) An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.

God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 16, 2016, 03:57:30 pm
Lovely, the OS wars ;) An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.

God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)
I have used all 3 major OSs (and some other lesser known, like Solaris even desktop on SunRays). As someone who's been in IT for 30 years now. I think I have enough experience and time spent with them to share my opinions of them.

- Windows: too many annoyances, small things but they add up over time and really drive you up the wall. Like auto update rebooting your computer even when you don't acknowledge it. Yes I know you can change the preference, but most people forget it. I was actually on a major outage call once when a network engineer was in the middle of fixing the issue and the computer rebooted on him without him noticing. And then proceeded to install bunch of updates. He was probably using one of those enterprisey apps that like to steal focus periodically and he never saw the reboot dialog. It works well if all you do is in the Windows ecosystem, but there are much better options if you really want to experience the vast wealth of quality Unix software (I know you can run Cygwin and stuff but it's not the same). Also for gaming it is by far the best.

- Linux: the best choice for majority of server and/or cloud deployments. Desktop severely lacks in my opinion still, and this is coming from someone who used Linux desktop primarily from 1998-2007. And then tried it again every once in awhile. It has gotten much better over the years, and if Apple ever piss me off I am definitely going back to Linux.

- OS X, nails a productive content creator desktop. Automation possible out of the box is top notch, you get the best of both worlds, the vast wealth of unix and FOSS apps natively, as well as the commercial support for a lot of the big commercial power apps. Yes it is not officially supported on the 3rd party hardware, but hackintoshing works pretty well now days. The side effect of the hardware exclusivity is that the software-hardware integration is second to none on Apple laptops. Also it is the only Desktop OS which gets keyboard shortcuts right, out of the box. I have no idea what designers of Linux graphical shells were thinking following the Windows model. Ctrl-C  the Copy and Ctrl-C the terminal break conflict!!! ugh... so each terminal app implements their own copy and paste. Whoever thought that was a good idea is an idiot.

For the most part the OS X gets out of your way and once you use it for a bit you realise how efficient it really is with its clever keyboard shortcuts and the screen real estate saving menu system. It is not without its problems just like any other Desktop OS. For instance Apple still can't get multi monitor support right. Like "alt-tabbing" popup will often be on the "wrong" screen.

Anyways don't knock it until you try it. And by try it I mean used it for long enough to re-learn keyboard shortcut muscle memory. If you do any sort of development outside of the .Net MS world it will become your favourite platform I am about 80% sure of it.

Might be a tough sale for EE work though, since a lot of professional EE apps are stuck in the last century and they insist on being single platform. If a small company like Saleae can be multiplatform I don't see why can't the others (I am looking at you SignalHound).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AF6LJ on February 16, 2016, 06:57:14 pm
OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Alexei.Polkhanov on February 16, 2016, 07:04:40 pm
OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.

Just install MacPorts, remote shell into it and voila, all UNIX tools plus you can use normal IBM keyboard.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 16, 2016, 07:15:32 pm
OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.

Just install MacPorts, remote shell into it and voila, all UNIX tools plus you can use normal IBM keyboard.
I've used MacPorts for many years, also partially a leftover from my FreeBSD days. I have been preferring brew lately however. Forgot what it was exactly that made me finally switch (I think El Capitan reverting some of my installs to previous version or something to that effect). But brew's tendency to keep your standard OS installs intact is nice.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 16, 2016, 07:19:52 pm
OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.
Can you elaborate? From my experience I have found OS X is not really that restrictive, I certainly consider it less restrictive than Windows. Windows will prevent you from deleting files, tailing a file that's being written to (or have they fixed that finally in powershell?)... If you're doing something that OS X is preventing you from doing I find it's usually something you can easily do with a different approach.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AF6LJ on February 16, 2016, 08:59:39 pm
OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.
Can you elaborate? From my experience I have found OS X is not really that restrictive, I certainly consider it less restrictive than Windows. Windows will prevent you from deleting files, tailing a file that's being written to (or have they fixed that finally in powershell?)... If you're doing something that OS X is preventing you from doing I find it's usually something you can easily do with a different approach.
Yes I can...
Changing Desktop font size for example.
A client wanted larger fonts but did not want to lower the screen resolution, and did not want to use the accessibility controls which to someone who is partially sighted as I am are useless.
The same person didn't like the font used on the desktop.

If there is something I don't know how to change in a windowz box I can google it and have the answer in seconds. Mac computers not so easy...

Windows is more configurable along with Linux. I don't know why the Apple OS is so hard to deal with regarding some issues.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 16, 2016, 09:29:44 pm
OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.
Can you elaborate? From my experience I have found OS X is not really that restrictive, I certainly consider it less restrictive than Windows. Windows will prevent you from deleting files, tailing a file that's being written to (or have they fixed that finally in powershell?)... If you're doing something that OS X is preventing you from doing I find it's usually something you can easily do with a different approach.
Yes I can...
Changing Desktop font size for example.
A client wanted larger fonts but did not want to lower the screen resolution, and did not want to use the accessibility controls which to someone who is partially sighted as I am are useless.
The same person didn't like the font used on the desktop.

If there is something I don't know how to change in a windowz box I can google it and have the answer in seconds. Mac computers not so easy...

Windows is more configurable along with Linux. I don't know why the Apple OS is so hard to deal with regarding some issues.
That's odd. Mac along with Linux implement the zooming really well, on Windows it's pretty clunky. But all you do is hold the CMD button (your standard key modifier) and scroll the wheel to zoom in into anything on the screen.

Pretty much every app supports text sizing, whether you use the trackpad pinch to zoom or the CMD-(+-). I actually think it's enforced by the OS, iMessages, the Finder, terminal, everything supports it. I have not found that to be the case on Windows. Notepad doesn't support text scaling. The most basic of the native apps in Windows. I would actually argue that OS X has a far better accessibility support for vision impaired.

If none of those work you also have the resolution scaling setting for retina displays, you can make the entire UI huge.

Sounds like it's just a case of not being familiar with the keyboard shortcuts. Something I touched on in one of my previous posts.

The lack of google results can be various things, from the different verbiage Mac uses, using Windows setting names to search Mac settings for example, but it can also be the popularity thing, after all Windows still enjoys like a 90% monopoly. The key thing with Macs is that CMD is your main modifier for most things. In fact if you use a mouse it's the only keyboard modifier you ever have to use.

CMD - C - Copy
CMD - V - Paste
CMD - Tab - Tab between apps
CMD - ~ - Tab between windows of the same app
CMD - Space - quick spotlight search
CMD - Mouse scroll wheel - quick zoom wherever the mouse is pointing.
CMD - W - close the window/tab
CMD - N - new window
CMD - T - new tab
CMD - Q - quit the app closing all its windows

All these shortcuts are honored in most apps too. Not just some. Not like Putty on Windows where all the shortcuts are different between some apps. Right click is your paste, lol. Linux is just as bad with shift+insert. On OS X copy is always CMD-C.

I should also note that CMD is where Alt on windows machines sits, and it makes it much easier ergonomically for prolonged use in my experience. Think of how Alt-Tab is easy on Windows. All the shortcuts on OS X are that easy.

For instance if you're trying to copy some text from one app to the next, you can quickly just do CMD-C, CMD-TAB, CMD-V on windows that's Ctrl-C, Alt-Tab, Ctrl-V.. (4 key presses, vs Windows' 6) as someone who uses this a lot I find I am at least 20-30% faster on the Mac. Not to mention Cmd-Tilde and finer control of what you're "alt-tabbing" between.

I do get it though. Like I said in my previous post, you really have to learn the keyboard shortcuts, it makes the OS X so much more efficient. Too often I see Windows users use OS X like they would use Windows and find themselves frustrated. But this is hardly OS X's fault.

OS X is not just easier for new users, it's easier for power users too. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't used OS X for an extended period of time. I happened to have used all 3 for about equal amount of years (Windows the longest since Windows 3.0).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on February 17, 2016, 12:22:28 am
I have no idea what designers of Linux graphical shells were thinking following the Windows model. Ctrl-C  the Copy and Ctrl-C the terminal break conflict!!! ugh... so each terminal app implements their own copy and paste.
Hm?
I thought Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins work across most Linux (and almost all Windows) programs.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 17, 2016, 01:06:48 am
I have no idea what designers of Linux graphical shells were thinking following the Windows model. Ctrl-C  the Copy and Ctrl-C the terminal break conflict!!! ugh... so each terminal app implements their own copy and paste.
Hm?
I thought Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins work across most Linux (and almost all Windows) programs.
Shft+Ins is far from ideal, it usually requires both hands and often times if you're copying and pasting between apps you will be using a mouse with one of your hands to select. It's just awkward. I have used it sure, you can work with it, but it's inferior to the always available cmd-c/v.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on February 17, 2016, 06:33:34 am
Shft+Ins is far from ideal, it usually requires both hands
Huh?
What keyboard layout do you use?
I just looked through a bunch of them, and all have Shift and Ins closer than Ctrl and V, including the key-poor small laptops.

Or is that due to something other than physical proximity?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 17, 2016, 01:38:32 pm
Shft+Ins is far from ideal, it usually requires both hands
Huh?
What keyboard layout do you use?
I just looked through a bunch of them, and all have Shift and Ins closer than Ctrl and V, including the key-poor small laptops.

Or is that due to something other than physical proximity?
I can see being able to use Shift-Ins with one hand on the mouse as a lefty. But if you're using the right handed mouse, the shift-ins I think you're referring to is on the right side of the keyboard. So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects. I fail to see how this is an easier alternative to cmd-c. Every keyboard I've ever seen has the Ins button somewhere on the right side of the keyboard. While all your other shortcuts are on your left.

Ins is also not ideal because it's often in a non-standard place. What I mean by this is, your standard full sized keyboards will have it in the same place, but as you step down to tenkeyless keyboards or smaller a keyboard manufacturer can move Ins anywhere they please. I've also seen it as a button you can only access with a Fn modifier.

Take this popular Lenovo model.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZjOYzPG.jpg)

Ins is an afterthought. You need 3 hands to pull of quick mouse select, copy, alt-tab, paste. While on the mac you never have to move your hand.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 17, 2016, 01:43:28 pm
God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)

Perfect match ;) Hardware is one main issue. I can't simply go to the next shop, grab the next best PC and install OSX. Apple gone to a lot of effort to suppress compatibles. Does the OSX EULA say something like that OSX may only be used with an Apple computer? There you go! A walled garden :(
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 17, 2016, 01:51:46 pm
 Windows uses Control-C to break out of running programs. yet you can also use it for copy (they brought it back in Windows 10, after some genius decided that using a right click context menu with the mouse was the right way to do text copy and paste in a text based user interface like Powershell). It's somewhat context sensitive - if you highlight text and press Control-C, the assumption is you are trying to copy that text, not send a <break>. If a script is running and
you press Control-C, the assumption is you want to break out of the running script, not copy the text that isn't highlighted. So why can't Linux do the same?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 17, 2016, 01:59:37 pm
Windows uses Control-C to break out of running programs. yet you can also use it for copy (they brought it back in Windows 10, after some genius decided that using a right click context menu with the mouse was the right way to do text copy and paste in a text based user interface like Powershell). It's somewhat context sensitive - if you highlight text and press Control-C, the assumption is you are trying to copy that text, not send a <break>. If a script is running and
you press Control-C, the assumption is you want to break out of the running script, not copy the text that isn't highlighted. So why can't Linux do the same?
I can see it not being very reliable because in terminal you are often using a program to control other programs, things like screen and tmux are common. All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AF6LJ on February 17, 2016, 02:04:34 pm
Lovely, the OS wars ;) An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.

God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)

There shouldn't be stupid users.  ;D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on February 17, 2016, 02:10:12 pm
So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects.
Aren't you doing exactly the same to reach keys like backspace and enter?
Or are you specific  talking about the scenario of "copy, alt-tab, paste"?

But yeah, i can only agree about non-standard placements of the "extra" keys...

All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed.
Unfortunately, it would only end in more confusion.
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on February 17, 2016, 02:11:03 pm
I can see being able to use Shift-Ins with one hand on the mouse as a lefty. But if you're using the right handed mouse, the shift-ins I think you're referring to is on the right side of the keyboard. So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects. I fail to see how this is an easier alternative to cmd-c.

In that situation you only have one hand at the keyboard so need to reposition it to do an awful lot anyway. But I guess moving your hand inches does take hours...

I fail to see how either is harder or easier than the other, only different.

All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

I also fail to see how that, or the "win" key, would be any easier or harder either. And it's another new thing for new users to learn, and 99% of them (and probably 99.9999% outside of the US*) will be coming from Windows anyway so not using Ctrl would be harder for them. Same is true for moving to Mac too.

But tbh as soon as I move to a terminal my right hand goes straight back to the keyboard, because you know it's a terminal and beyond selecting the window the mouse is useless, so this isn't an issue for me lol.


*I've only come across two Mac owners IRL, and one of them was me before they just started making PCs.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 17, 2016, 02:24:24 pm
I can see being able to use Shift-Ins with one hand on the mouse as a lefty. But if you're using the right handed mouse, the shift-ins I think you're referring to is on the right side of the keyboard. So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects. I fail to see how this is an easier alternative to cmd-c.

In that situation you only have one hand at the keyboard so need to reposition it to do an awful lot anyway. But I guess moving your hand inches does take hours...

I fail to see how either is harder or easier than the other, only different.

All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

I also fail to see how that, or the "win" key, would be any easier or harder either. And it's another new thing for new users to learn, and 99% of them (and probably 99.9999% outside of the US) will be coming from Windows anyway so not using Ctrl would be harder for them. Same is true for moving to Mac too tbh.

But tbh as soon as I move to a terminal my right hand goes straight back to the keyboard, because you know it's a terminal ao beyond selecting the window the mouse is useless, so this isn't an issue for me lol.
I can explain it.

Let me give you a very common scenario. Your coding something, and you forget the best way to do something. You fire up google and you find a stackoverlow topic on exactly the issue you're trying to solve (this happens all the time btw). You see a nice snippet of code you'd like to copy and modify in for your project.

On Mac:

- Move your right hand to the mouse. Select.
- Hold CMD
- Press C
- Press Tab
- Press V
- Release CMD

On other OSs:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl
- Press C
- Release Ctrl,
- Press and Hold Alt
- Press Tab
- Release Alt
- Press and hold Ctrl
- Press V
- Release Alt

If you're in a terminal app Mac example stays the same, things get even weirder on Linux and Windows:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl
- Press C
- Release Ctrl,
- Press and Hold Alt
- Press Tab
- Release Alt
- Move your left hand to the right side of the keyboard
- Press and hold Shift
- Press Insert
- Release Shift
- Move your left hand back to your usual left side of the keyboard

This is just for one copy and paste. But often times you want to copy different sections. And you can see how constantly having to reposition your hands on the keyboard is less than ideal.

Is it doable? yes. I've used Linux for 10 years. I can live with it. But is OS X much much nicer. Absolutely!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on February 17, 2016, 02:37:59 pm
Except when people actually type not every key press and release is a separate motion. For example for me:

On Mac:

- Move your right hand to the mouse. Select.
- Hold CMD *
- Press C     * These are one motion
- Press Tab
- Press V
- Release Hold

On other OSs:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl               *
- Press C                 * These are also one motion
- Release Ctrl,         **
- Press and Hold Alt ** As are these
- Press Tab             **
- Release Alt             ***
- Press and hold Ctrl  *** And these
- Press V                   ***
- Release Alt

So both take 4 motions.


Quote
If you're in a terminal app Mac example stays the same, things get even weirder on Linux and Windows:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl
- Press C
- Release Ctrl,
- Press and Hold Alt
- Press Tab
- Release Alt
- Move your left hand to the right side of the keyboard

Why when your right hand is already back at the keyboard? You're not even using the mouse to switch windows so why keep it on there when you're switching to a CLI? Just use your right hand you've instinctively moved back to the keyboard without thinking about it.

Quote
Is it doable? yes. I've used Linux for 10 years. I can live with it. But is OS X much much nicer. Absolutely!

For you maybe, to me they're just different. To others, especially new users, different and harder are the same thing.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 17, 2016, 02:42:21 pm
Except when people actually type not every key press and release is a separate motion. For example for me:

On Mac:

- Move your right hand to the mouse. Select.
- Hold CMD *
- Press C     * These are one motion
- Press Tab
- Press V
- Release Hold

On other OSs:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl               *
- Press C                 * These are also one motion
- Release Ctrl,         **
- Press and Hold Alt ** As are these
- Press Tab             **
- Release Alt             ***
- Press and hold Ctrl  *** And these
- Press V                   ***
- Release Alt

So both take 4 motions.
Absolutely false. Having to switch between holding ctrl and alt is not at all the same as just holding one button without having to release it. Run a test and see which one is easier. Just pretend ctrl-c was alt-c. And don't release it between the steps.

I am not arguing the speed I am arguing the ease. Although OSX way can also be faster.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 17, 2016, 02:45:40 pm
I can see it not being very reliable because in terminal you are often using a program to control other programs, things like screen and tmux are common. All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

With X11/xorg you can modify keys as you like. You could use xmodmap or XKB for example.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on February 17, 2016, 02:46:38 pm
I can see it not being very reliable because in terminal you are often using a program to control other programs, things like screen and tmux are common. All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

With X11/xorg you can modify keys as you like. You could use xmodmap or XKB for example.
In my experience that doesn't translate to all the apps. Like a terminal app won't honor those bindings.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 17, 2016, 03:27:48 pm
With X11/xorg you can modify keys as you like. You could use xmodmap or XKB for example.
In my experience that doesn't translate to all the apps. Like a terminal app won't honor those bindings.

I don't know if you've written any X11 applications. Unless the application (or the widget used) explicitly retrieves raw keys it gets parsed keys.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Philfreeze on February 19, 2016, 07:51:31 am
I can't simply go to the next shop, grab the next best PC and install OSX. Apple gone to a lot of effort to suppress compatibles. Does the OSX EULA say something like that OSX may only be used with an Apple computer? There you go! A walled garden :(

Sadly, I have to agree with that. It is kind of sad that you can't install OSX legaly on other PC systems than the Macs. It is possible though, I have an XPS Hackintosh with runs just fine but again, it isn't exactly legal and it is also not very easy to get it running (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on February 19, 2016, 12:33:52 pm
Except when people actually type not every key press and release is a separate motion. For example for me:

On Mac:

- Move your right hand to the mouse. Select.
- Hold CMD *
- Press C     * These are one motion
- Press Tab
- Press V
- Release Hold

On other OSs:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl               *
- Press C                 * These are also one motion
- Release Ctrl,         **
- Press and Hold Alt ** As are these
- Press Tab             **
- Release Alt             ***
- Press and hold Ctrl  *** And these
- Press V                   ***
- Release Alt

So both take 4 motions.
Absolutely false. Having to switch between holding ctrl and alt is not at all the same as just holding one button without having to release it. Run a test and see which one is easier. Just pretend ctrl-c was alt-c. And don't release it between the steps.

I am not arguing the speed I am arguing the ease. Although OSX way can also be faster.
I agree with Muxr on this particular example, despite on Windows I use the Ctrl+Tab to switch between browser tabs. However, overall I agree with Mechanical Menace they are different: Mac OS is smarter in a few things, dumber in others. In my experience I find myself missing PgUp/PgDown and Del keys all the time and Ins key more rarely. Another annoyance in my opinion is that usually the red "X" does not quit the application (you need to issue Cmd+Q).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 19, 2016, 01:51:11 pm
I seriously doubt they are ethically superior to MS as well, they are all the same, at least with MS my CAD tools and software work without jumping through hoops. I'm not completely at the mercy of MS for hardware and software, thats a corporation wet dream, they have you by the short and curlies as the saying goes.

With Woz as CEO Apple would have gone a completely different way. They wouldn't be such a successful giant (by profit), but a very open and ethical company. I'd suppose you can't have both.

In the corporate world you can't go wrong with Microsoft. The software developers know that, and the IT departments too. If something goes wrong you can blame Microsoft. But if you dare to use another OS you will be blamed. One old decision is haunting companies now, it's the Internet Explorer. There are tons of web based applications (some being business critical) which are designed to work with IE only, but Microsoft is dropping IE. Some of those applications require IE6. If companies would have decided to go for standard HTML they wouldn't have the problem to make their business critical applications to work with other or current web browsers. But you can blame it on Microsoft and get the additional budget for adapting your business critical applications without much trouble. And nobody remembers that you've said back then that using an application based on IE6 might be a bad idea in the future. You can't go wrong with Microsoft  >:D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 19, 2016, 05:21:10 pm
For the same hardware, a PC is usually way cheaper than a Mac.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 19, 2016, 05:37:12 pm
In light of some staements made recently by Apple's CEO, I'm wondering if the cost vs. value may need looking at again. Apple's ethics seem to be more in line with mine, unlike Microsoft's attitude that what's mine is theirs to sell to the highest bidder.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 19, 2016, 07:17:13 pm
For the same hardware, a PC is usually way cheaper than a Mac.

At one time that was true but every penny extra you spent on a Mac you got back in reliability and engineering quality. I've got two Mac G4 notebooks, one G5 desktop and one G5 dual tower that are still working faultlessly years after Apple dropped support for them. I'm not convinced that recent Macs have kept that quality up to the old ones and may not justify the premium pricing as well as the old ones did.

I used to specify and resell HP PCs (around the late 90's early 00's) where the retail price was on the same order above typical PCs as Apple's are/were. They were superbly build and not one we used or sold went wrong - again the extra price was reflected in the quality you received. This was the old HP though - that made oscilloscopes and PCs and I think was the better for it.
Title: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 19, 2016, 08:38:50 pm
For the same hardware, a PC is usually way cheaper than a Mac.

At one time that was true but every penny extra you spent on a Mac you got back in reliability and engineering quality. I've got two Mac G4 notebooks, one G5 desktop and one G5 dual tower that are still working faultlessly years after Apple dropped support for them. I'm not convinced that recent Macs have kept that quality up to the old ones and may not justify the premium pricing as well as the old ones did.

I used to specify and resell HP PCs (around the late 90's early 00's) where the retail price was on the same order above typical PCs as Apple's are/were. They were superbly build and not one we used or sold went wrong - again the extra price was reflected in the quality you received. This was the old HP though - that made oscilloscopes and PCs and I think was the better for it.

Yeah, I've still got a Mirrored Drive Door G4 Tower (aka Wind Tunnel) that's been humming along for, gosh 13 years now. I just checked and uptime is currently 3 years 52 days 14 hours and 27 minutes! (It's in the back of a closet with a UPS collecting weather data via a custom script I wrote years ago.

I've also got a Core Duo iMac in the equipment closet running Snow Leopard that acts as the house server. It does network faxing, storage and printer sharing.

No issues with either! (I know I could replace the MDD G4 with a Raspberry Pi, but it's got a special place in my heart as it was my first Mac desktop back in 2003. It was a beast, too. Man, so many hours playing Neverwinter Nights on that thing... Finally replaced it in 2006 with the first Intel Mac Pro.)

Anyway, I can't speak to current hardware, but my 2014 MacBook Air is solidly built and I haven't had any trouble with it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Tim F on February 20, 2016, 06:37:45 am
It's best just to re-install Windows once a year anyway. Try to use as much portable software as possible to keep from cluttering up the registry.
Pfft, that is the speak of a man who has not yet learned how to keep their windows install neat and lean ;). Mine still runs like the day I installed it:
(http://i.imgur.com/v5D19oS.png)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 20, 2016, 07:10:47 am
I can't simply go to the next shop, grab the next best PC and install OSX. Apple gone to a lot of effort to suppress compatibles. Does the OSX EULA say something like that OSX may only be used with an Apple computer? There you go! A walled garden :(

Sadly, I have to agree with that. It is kind of sad that you can't install OSX legaly on other PC systems than the Macs. It is possible though, I have an XPS Hackintosh with runs just fine but again, it isn't exactly legal and it is also not very easy to get it running (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't)

There's a good reason for that. If Apple should allow to install OSX on whatever hardware you like, then the quality, stability and
user experience will be dependent on drivers and hardware that is beyond the control of Apple.

It's like saying that it is a kind of sad that you can not install the software of an R&S oscilloscope on a Rigol scope.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: German_EE on February 20, 2016, 10:53:03 am
Tim F has made an interesting boast and there is one thing that has me curious. There is a directory/folder in MS Windows called Winsxs which increases in size over time as more and more updates are applied, in my case it's now at 8.2Gb and forms about half of the 17Gb installation. As the folder size has grown boot times have increased until it now takes about four minutes before I have a usable system.

Yes, I have run the various cleanup utilities, but please tell us Tim how you have overcome this particular problem.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 20, 2016, 10:55:26 am
It's best just to re-install Windows once a year anyway. Try to use as much portable software as possible to keep from cluttering up the registry.
Pfft, that is the speak of a man who has not yet learned how to keep their windows install neat and lean ;). Mine still runs like the day I installed it:
...

Apparently, I do not follow my own advice. Of the two Windows 7 computers I still have running, one has not been re-installed since August 2013, and the other (never activated and running in 30 day trial mode) not since June 2014.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 20, 2016, 10:59:13 am
The winsxs folder is where Windows stores all the parts it has used in the past, or might need in the future.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2795190
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on February 20, 2016, 11:06:05 am
Tim F has made an interesting boast and there is one thing that has me curious. There is a directory/folder in MS Windows called Winsxs which increases in size over time as more and more updates are applied, in my case it's now at 8.2Gb and forms about half of the 17Gb installation. As the folder size has grown boot times have increased until it now takes about four minutes before I have a usable system.

Yes, I have run the various cleanup utilities, but please tell us Tim how you have overcome this particular problem.

I don't know about Tim F but here is some reading:
(How to address disk space issues that are caused by a large Windows component store (WinSxS) directory)
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2795190
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 20, 2016, 12:40:13 pm
...
As far as apple supposedly being not as invasive as MS, yea right dream on.
...

Does anyone know if the following applies only to Apple phones?

Quote from: Tim Cook, CEO Apple
For many years, we have used encryption to protect our customers’ personal data because we believe it’s the only way to keep their information safe. We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HAL-42b on February 20, 2016, 12:49:10 pm
Quote from: Tim Cook, CEO Apple
For many years, we have used encryption to protect our customers’ personal data because we believe it’s the only way to keep their information safe. We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business.

Pure PR bullshit. Apple can even push new firmware to your phone over the aether without user intervention. They can target all phones or a particular phone. They have complete control over every bit of data on that phone, past present and future.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 20, 2016, 01:58:16 pm
Sadly, I have to agree with that. It is kind of sad that you can't install OSX legaly on other PC systems than the Macs. It is possible though, I have an XPS Hackintosh with runs just fine but again, it isn't exactly legal and it is also not very easy to get it running (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't)

There's a good reason for that. If Apple should allow to install OSX on whatever hardware you like, then the quality, stability and
user experience will be dependent on drivers and hardware that is beyond the control of Apple.

It's like saying that it is a kind of sad that you can not install the software of an R&S oscilloscope on a Rigol scope.

Sounds like being directly from Apple's marketing department  >:D Would it be too hard for Apple to provide a list of supported hardware? For example, VMware does that for ESXi. VMware provides all drivers and the ESXi servers have to run rock solid for a "great user experience".

The comparison you've made isn't appropriate, since we're discussing mass market OSs and not some special tools for EEs. Along your lines I could say it would be like being forced to fill my Toyota with Toyota gas (if there would be Toyota gas stations).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 20, 2016, 02:02:37 pm
I don't know about Tim F but here is some reading:
(How to address disk space issues that are caused by a large Windows component store (WinSxS) directory)
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2795190

There's another junk yard collecting several GBs during Windows' lifetime, the windows updates. They won't be deleted after updating.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Tim F on February 20, 2016, 02:08:13 pm
Haven't touched the winsxs folder here, boot time is about 30 seconds from POST completing to having a usable desktop. OS installed on 256gb Samsung 850 pro SSD. OS was originally installed on a conventional HDD (2tb or something), I cloned the OS partition when I bought the SSD.

Also have a Dell xps13 laptop running the windows8 install it came with in 2012 or 2013 and it still boots to a desktpp in about 15 seconds.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 20, 2016, 02:16:47 pm
Quote from: Tim Cook, CEO Apple
For many years, we have used encryption to protect our customers’ personal data because we believe it’s the only way to keep their information safe. We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business.

Pure PR bullshit. Apple can even push new firmware to your phone over the aether without user intervention. They can target all phones or a particular phone. They have complete control over every bit of data on that phone, past present and future.

And Microsoft is quite late with Win10 doing something similar. So much for ethics and the question about which one is more evil.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on February 20, 2016, 02:24:10 pm
Quote
Quote from: Tim Cook, CEO Apple

any engineer believing that is entitled to have his/her tuition refunded.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GreyWoolfe on February 20, 2016, 02:29:39 pm
Tim F has made an interesting boast and there is one thing that has me curious. There is a directory/folder in MS Windows called Winsxs which increases in size over time as more and more updates are applied, in my case it's now at 8.2Gb and forms about half of the 17Gb installation. As the folder size has grown boot times have increased until it now takes about four minutes before I have a usable system.

Yes, I have run the various cleanup utilities, but please tell us Tim how you have overcome this particular problem.

Haven't touched the winsxs folder here, boot time is about 30 seconds from POST completing to having a usable desktop. OS installed on 256gb Samsung 850 pro SSD. OS was originally installed on a conventional HDD (2tb or something), I cloned the OS partition when I bought the SSD.

Also have a Dell xps13 laptop running the windows8 install it came with in 2012 or 2013 and it still boots to a desktpp in about 15 seconds.

I have an HP Z210 SFF computer set up in 2010 with 64 bit Win 7 Ultimate and now 64 bit Win 10 Pro with a Pentium G850 processor, 8 GB ram and a conventional 500 GB hard drive (free computer).  The computer has never had a reinstall of Windows.  The size of the Winsxs folder is 5.7 GB and I have never run any kind of cleanup utilities nor can I remember when the last time I did a disk cleanup and defrag.  I do all updates.  My computer takes about 40 seconds to boot from power on to where I can open programs.  The only thing I do to my computer is run as lean a start up as possible.  I only have my antivirus software running at startup, everything else was unchecked on the list.  The other thing was that Win 7 wasn't an OEM install, I installed my own bloatware free copy.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 20, 2016, 06:06:22 pm
 You can only clean up WINSXS back to the last service pack - which is why it sucks that Microsoft never released one final service pack for Windows 7/Server 2008. The size of WINSXS ha nothing to do with boot time though. All the update files are retained so that if you add additional Windows features that weren't previously installed, it installs the already updated versions of the required files instead of the base ones and then needing additional updates.
 I had a laptop using a 120GB SSD, and I still have an old desktop with one that small, and it's not a problem. Where I do find problems is when clients build Windows Server VMs and set a 30GB drive for the C drive. That may have worked fine for Server 2003 and older, but that is not a suitable drive size for 2008 and up.
 If the computer originally had the original RTM Windows installed, and then was later upgraded to SP1 and then updates beyond, you can clean SOME of it up (the Pre SP1 files) by running Dism.exe /online /Cleanup-Image /SPSuperseded from an elevated command prompt. You won't be able to uninstall the service pack after this.


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 20, 2016, 06:30:50 pm
It's best just to re-install Windows once a year anyway. Try to use as much portable software as possible to keep from cluttering up the registry.
Pfft, that is the speak of a man who has not yet learned how to keep their windows install neat and lean ;). Mine still runs like the day I installed it:

110% agreed! I keep my desktop the same since 2010. Haven't (and will not) moved from Win7, and yet my machine is stable as a rock. This talk that Windows has to be reinstalled every year is complete BS. There is no need for that if you know how to use a computer. It's the same for a car: as long as you know how to properly drive a car, are careful with that you feed it (good fuel, oil and other fuilds changes, etc), that car is gonna last a while. Now, if you're careless or have a shitty car, you'll have to have the car repaired every month and will need an engine change every year.

Have a good computer, take good care of it, and the machine will serve you well for several years.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on February 20, 2016, 07:01:01 pm
+1 on the "no need to reinstall Windows".
Got the same Win7 from when i installed it back in whenever it came out, up to late 2015, when i finally bit the bullet and moved to Linux for good.

I guess my approach is that if a program only comes as an "installer" instead of a zip file, then it's not a program worth having (with a few exceptions and the big corporate stuff that just does not come any other way).
Some of the more useful installer-only programs i have made portable by identifying the registry keys and saving them separately, so i can "reinstall" the program cleanly on a different system.

Never had to use any cleaning tools or antiviruses.
But then again, my first "job" as a schoolkid was going around fixing computers, building computers, removing viruses and so on, so i ended up knowing the Windows' internals pretty well.

On the transfer to Linux or something else - a good thing to have is to identify all the programs and features you use.
Make a list, determine what it would take to completely reconstruct your work environment from scratch (useful even if all you want is to move to another computer with the same type of OS).
The list might not only contain programs, but habits - i.e. i use junction points on NTFS extensively. It sounds like an easy part, since these are conceptually similar to symlinks on Linux, but you'd need special NTFS drivers and some tweaking to get them to work, which is something to be done at the planning stage, not finding it out in the middle of polishing a new system.

You probably would have a bunch of tools you made yourself, that would have to be recompiled on the new system. It's a good idea to do this early, while you still have a working environment to tweak them in.

The end result is an environment that is portable, which can work on several types of systems.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 21, 2016, 01:14:37 am

Quote from: Tim Cook, CEO Apple
For many years, we have used encryption to protect our customers’ personal data because we believe it’s the only way to keep their information safe. We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business.

Pure PR bullshit. Apple can even push new firmware to your phone over the aether without user intervention. They can target all phones or a particular phone. They have complete control over every bit of data on that phone, past present and future.

And Microsoft is quite late with Win10 doing something similar. So much for ethics and the question about which one is more evil.

Yes but with apple chances are you wouldn't even know they are doing it.

Actually, most of the core of OS X (Darwin) is Open Source and it's not like we can't use LittleSnitch or even WireShark to monitor what's being phoned home. Hint: OS X doesn't spy on you and there are no known back doors. There's a very large crowd of very smart people that tear every new release apart figuring out what every Daemon, Kext, Script and Library does. We'd know if it existed.
(If it did, I'm sure John Gruber's head would literally explode, like a ball of conflagration with bravado, if you will. Heh, that's a little Mac Nerd Humor there.)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SopaXorzTaker on February 26, 2016, 07:03:35 am
I use linux and feel cooler, though.  8)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Galenbo on February 29, 2016, 09:12:00 am
There's a good reason for that. If Apple should allow to install OSX on whatever hardware you like, then the quality, stability and
user experience will be dependent on drivers and hardware that is beyond the control of Apple.
That's very true, and/but Kim Jong Un couldn't have said it better.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on February 29, 2016, 09:29:53 am
Ironically, Apple are terrible at firmware, driver support and kernel reliability. My MacOS X usage was a storm of WiFi problems, sleep issues and filesystem corruption. I'm not sure where the whole controlled platform mystique comes from; they're human and as idiotic as any other software team.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 29, 2016, 03:41:46 pm
There's a good reason for that. If Apple should allow to install OSX on whatever hardware you like, then the quality, stability and
user experience will be dependent on drivers and hardware that is beyond the control of Apple.
That's very true, and/but Kim Jong Un couldn't have said it better.

I really don't see the connection between a North Korean dictator and Apple. If you really believe that Apple's behaviour is comparable with a communist dictator,
then all discussion will be futile.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on February 29, 2016, 04:14:16 pm
There's a good reason for that. If Apple should allow to install OSX on whatever hardware you like, then the quality, stability and
user experience will be dependent on drivers and hardware that is beyond the control of Apple.
That's very true, and/but Kim Jong Un couldn't have said it better.

I really don't see the connection between a North Korean dictator and Apple. If you really believe that Apple's behaviour is comparable with a communist dictator,
then all discussion will be futile.
Let's see... Unwillingness to cooperate with its hardware peers (PCs); unwillingness to share hardware details with the world (no service manuals); uncooperative to expose its internals (ask iFixit), every hardware launch gives headlines across the world... ;D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on February 29, 2016, 05:43:20 pm
There's a good reason for that. If Apple should allow to install OSX on whatever hardware you like, then the quality, stability and
user experience will be dependent on drivers and hardware that is beyond the control of Apple.
That's very true, and/but Kim Jong Un couldn't have said it better.

I really don't see the connection between a North Korean dictator and Apple. If you really believe that Apple's behaviour is comparable with a communist dictator,
then all discussion will be futile.
Let's see... Unwillingness to cooperate with its hardware peers (PCs); unwillingness to share hardware details with the world (no service manuals); uncooperative to expose its internals (ask iFixit), every hardware launch gives headlines across the world... ;D

As long as we don't get forced to buy or use Apple stuff and as long as Apple has a minor market share, who cares?
I guess a lot of people in North Korea would like to live in the US, even when forced to use Apple stuff...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: miguelvp on February 29, 2016, 05:56:13 pm
Having lived in a dictatorship during Franco, I can say that while it's true that some would move out (specially those who just put their freedom of speech before their own well being) the majority would stay because family and even their love for their own town or region would make them accept what it is or even make little changes to make their situation more livable.

Even dictatorships have laws, and those can be changed a little bit at a time.

I wouldn't assume everyone in there is miserable and willing to leave. Poor is not the same as miserable, others have it even worse than North Korean inhabitants.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: XOIIO on February 29, 2016, 06:24:22 pm
For the same hardware, a PC is usually way cheaper than a Mac.

At one time that was true but every penny extra you spent on a Mac you got back in reliability and engineering quality. I've got two Mac G4 notebooks, one G5 desktop and one G5 dual tower that are still working faultlessly years after Apple dropped support for them. I'm not convinced that recent Macs have kept that quality up to the old ones and may not justify the premium pricing as well as the old ones did.

I used to specify and resell HP PCs (around the late 90's early 00's) where the retail price was on the same order above typical PCs as Apple's are/were. They were superbly build and not one we used or sold went wrong - again the extra price was reflected in the quality you received. This was the old HP though - that made oscilloscopes and PCs and I think was the better for it.

I don't see how hard drives and ram which are built in/glued onto the motherboard are "better engineering".

And I'm pretty sure that as long as apple exists, dollar for dollar you will get more performance out of a PC than you will an apple equivalent.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on February 29, 2016, 10:22:46 pm
It's clearly not better engineering. 

Neither is a battery you can't remove, something Apple pioneered. Been on the end of a MacBook fire before and it's not pretty.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 29, 2016, 10:28:21 pm
\

I wouldn't assume everyone in there is miserable and willing to leave. Poor is not the same as miserable, others have it even worse than North Korean inhabitants.

Sometimes people just can't understand there is something better.  For years we called it AOL syndrome, despite the overwhelming evidence that anything else was better than AOL just because thats all they knew of.  I've ran into several people who think only Apple can do x even though Apple copied that idea from someone else.  They get stuck believing there is nothing better
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 29, 2016, 11:26:13 pm
 If you check the prices, a Windows laptop built to the same size and weight specs as a MacBook has: glued in battery, soldered in RAM - because the connectors add too much Z-height. And when they actually use magnesium cases instead of plastic, they cost about the same as the MacBook. Desktops, there's no contest. It's even MORE glaring to me because I never buy a commercial desktop, I always build my own, with higher performance and a lower price point than any of the commercial offerings like Dell, HP, or Lenovo.

 I love my iPhone and iPad, but I will not be switching away from Windows with a side helping of Linux any time soon.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: strangersound on March 01, 2016, 03:30:27 am
I have multiple machines for different tasks. An XP machine that has my video editing setup. An XP machine with my audio setup. Both of these are offline machines. I also have a P4 with 512 megs of ram running two drives with a few versions of Linux. I surf the net on this here laptop I'm tying on now that has this steaming pile of Vista on it. Windows has been out to lunch for years, but the latest stuff they've been pulling is too much for my taste. I'll be using Linux for any online use soon enough. This laptop will see Vista go away, likely in favor of Mint (Xfce).

What really irks me more than anything is how memory intensive (ram usage) the web and browsers have gotten. Web page weights are bigger than they used to be, but the latest averages are still around 2.2 megs a page. That's hardly a drop in the bucket. Open Facebook and scroll the wheel a couple of times and you can hit 350megs. I've watched tabs go over a gig. It's insanity. There is so much javascript running in the background, who could even tell what it's all doing. I've been dabbling in html/css/javascript for a long time and I know what it takes to display a webpage and it's not a gig of memory. Can anybody tell me what the deal is with this? What the hell are these browsers and pages doing in the background that can consume so much ram?

Anyway, I'd wager a guess that it will even get to the point, these OS's like Windows and Mac will demand to be online to even run. They can have at it, I'm going to use a system I control, not The Borg.

The solution is for more people to get with the program and start using a Linux distro. Then we will start to see the big names in software (like Photoshop, Games, and the other important tools) port out versions for Linux. They aren't going to bother if their isn't sufficient demand. It's up to us, the consumer, to force these shifts. Otherwise, we will be forced to use what they foist on us, whether we like it or not.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: miguelvp on March 01, 2016, 05:46:26 am
Vista is probably the most memory hungry OS out there, upgrade it to at least Windows 7
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: FLIP on March 01, 2016, 06:10:05 am
my only windows machine is vista, but thats for radio programming. my main machine is debian with wine and dosbox installed

the last few windows  releases imho are way too bloated, and with windows 10 and their spyware is not a selling point for me
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: gnavigator1007 on March 01, 2016, 06:11:23 am
The solution is for more people to get with the program and start using a Linux distro. Then we will start to see the big names in software (like Photoshop, Games, and the other important tools) port out versions for Linux. They aren't going to bother if their isn't sufficient demand. It's up to us, the consumer, to force these shifts. Otherwise, we will be forced to use what they foist on us, whether we like it or not.

I'm interested to see how many follow suit with Steam supporting more and more games on Linux systems.  Gaming is big enough now that it really could lead to a larger software migration.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 01, 2016, 06:12:25 am
What really irks me more than anything is how memory intensive (ram usage) the web and browsers have gotten. Web page weights are bigger than they used to be, but the latest averages are still around 2.2 megs a page. That's hardly a drop in the bucket. Open Facebook and scroll the wheel a couple of times and you can hit 350megs. I've watched tabs go over a gig. It's insanity. There is so much javascript running in the background, who could even tell what it's all doing. I've been dabbling in html/css/javascript for a long time and I know what it takes to display a webpage and it's not a gig of memory. Can anybody tell me what the deal is with this? What the hell are these browsers and pages doing in the background that can consume so much ram?

I use FireFox. It constantly consumes >500MB of RAM, peaks at 1.2GB or so. I think it does not like to free memory when you closed  page, and it will reuse memory when you open a new page that shares some same elements. It will recover JS memory, it has an automated garbage collector. I think the max memory cache FF will use depends on your available memory, it is designed to trade memory for speed.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 01, 2016, 06:20:29 am
my only windows machine is vista, but thats for radio programming. my main machine is debian with wine and dosbox installed

the last few windows  releases imho are way too bloated, and with windows 10 and their spyware is not a selling point for me

I don't like W10 either. Anyway I use only the feature set W7 provides. However, W10 has some major improvements:
1. Some security features, such as bit locker, is not available in home basic or home premium W7, but available in W10 home for free.
2. MUCH better DPI scaling. Seems like hardware manufacturers are racing to deliver higher and higher resolution displays, at <15 inch! Without scaling, it is virtually unusable.
3. Bloated frameworks. That's the whole point of bloated software, like Arduino -- making programming easier, and let the smart runtime to figure out how to do it.

Unfortunately, I need neither of them. I already have W7 pro license, so free bit locker does not make me any good. I use 1080p at 22 inch display, so I do not need scaling. I'm a hardcore Windows SDK API programmer and POSIX programmer on Linux, and I hate .NET/XNA/any new M$ frameworks.

I do appreciate point 2 on my laptop -- 1440*2560 in 13.3 inch. I tried W7 DPI scaling on my retired retina MBP, and it almost blinded my eyes. W8 handles it equally shitty. W8.1 handles it much better, and W10 makes it not painful at all. On desktop computers where you have large enough displays? No Win 10, thanks.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Galenbo on March 01, 2016, 09:26:09 am
...I really don't see the connection between a North Korean dictator and Apple.
applause for the leader and the system is mandatory !

...If you really believe that Apple's behaviour is comparable with a communist dictator,
then all discussion will be futile.
the big leader of True-Korea is great, don't question that, all discussion about that is futile.

:-)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Philfreeze on March 01, 2016, 01:47:58 pm
So this thread turned into "let's compare Apple with a totalitarian dictatorship"...

I had high hopes that this community could compare different operating systems without going completely insane but I was proven wrong.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: strangersound on March 01, 2016, 06:05:47 pm
So this thread turned into "let's compare Apple with a totalitarian dictatorship"...

I had high hopes that this community could compare different operating systems without going completely insane but I was proven wrong.

Here, I can help bring it back around. North Korea has it's own special Linux distro: Red Star OS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS) ;)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Galenbo on March 07, 2016, 02:44:53 pm
North Korea has it's own special Linux distro: Red Star OS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS) ;)
That must be the OS with the least chance to being spied on by NSA/EU
:-)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 07, 2016, 07:02:32 pm
I almost exclusively use Linux, but I do have a few Win 7 VMs around for those programs that need them.

This morning I decided to update one of them, since it had been a while.  In the past I've been burned by trying to do too many updates at once, so I started with one.  Just one update, around 5 MB, some Silverlight security patch.  THREE HOURS LATER it's still running, "0 KB total, 0% complete".  The indicators on the VM show almost constant HD and net activity, and C:\Windows\Software Distribution has increased in size by EIGHT HUNDRED MB, and is STILL GROWING.

Just another of the many reasons I hate Windows.  It tries to hide everything from the user, I guess to make things less "scary", but all it ends up doing is pissing me off because it sits there doing some ungodly mess in the background for HOURS and doesn't tell me a damn thing, just a little sliding "progress" bar that stays at 0%.  And when and why did Microsoft decide to ditch ACTUAL PROGRESS BARS?  What is with this bar that just slides back and forth eternally like a Cylon and doesn't indicate shit?  And when it does error out, it never tells you WHY, it just gives some stupid generic message that doesn't give the user the slightest clue what went wrong or how to fix it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 07, 2016, 08:17:45 pm
The updates that fail or hang happen on W10 also. The bad part is you can't even refuse to install it. It prompts every time, and never finishes. Had to trash the OS to fix it.

Windows also runs like shit after a few days. Also runs like shit in a VM compared to Linux.

Just use FOSS. I've always found an open source, or at least free alternative that trumps any "enterprise" or "commercial" garbage.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 07, 2016, 09:12:51 pm
The updates that fail or hang happen on W10 also. The bad part is you can't even refuse to install it. It prompts every time, and never finishes. Had to trash the OS to fix it.

Windows also runs like shit after a few days. Also runs like shit in a VM compared to Linux.

Just use FOSS. I've always found an open source, or at least free alternative that trumps any "enterprise" or "commercial" garbage.

What FOSS software can you find that does the same as Adobe Creative Cloud, Sony Vegas, AutoDesk Inventor, and not require multiboot configurations so as to not run into dependency conflicts? I am being rather lax on the requirements as there are many other programs I use along with these. Running Win7 in a virtual machine to run these intensive programs is not a good option.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 07, 2016, 09:39:32 pm
What FOSS software can you find that does the same as Adobe Creative Cloud, Sony Vegas, AutoDesk Inventor, and not require multiboot configurations so as to not run into dependency conflicts? I am being rather lax on the requirements as there are many other programs I use along with these. Running Win7 in a virtual machine to run these intensive programs is not a good option.
There are a million of free CAD programs. Gimp replaces adobe and blender replaces sony.
I will admit that once everyone and their dog starts contributing code to an OS project, it becomes crappy. But it's still better than the scam that is paid software.

Running anything in a windows VM is a pain, especially a program that utilizes a GUI. It uses so many resources doing nothing. Biggest limitation is the lack of proper 3D acc. in a VM unless if you get pci passthrough to work. Keyword if. Windows is so complicated and bloated M$FT doesn't even know how it works.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 07, 2016, 10:46:18 pm
There are a million of free CAD programs. Gimp replaces adobe and blender replaces sony.
I will admit that once everyone and their dog starts contributing code to an OS project, it becomes crappy. But it's still better than the scam that is paid software.

Gimp doesn't come even close to the same capabilities as Photoshop CC. Blender does many good things, but its user friendliness is horrible compared to Vegas. Cinelerra comes close, but dependency problems made it useless for me. Maybe it is better now. And, even though they might be close, they do don't match the former softwares in capabilities. You are forgetting the many other pieces of software in Adobe CC.

Running anything in a windows VM is a pain, especially a program that utilizes a GUI. It uses so many resources doing nothing. Biggest limitation is the lack of proper 3D acc. in a VM unless if you get pci passthrough to work. Keyword if. Windows is so complicated and bloated M$FT doesn't even know how it works.

Believe me, I would love to dump MS altogether and never have to worry about being locked in to their crap, and not have to worry about what they are doing to me behind my back. The truth is that there is no one Linux distro and collection of software that runs on that one distro without dependency conflicts. I would even be happy to run two distros to make it all work, but I have yet to see it possible.

I need full color calibration on multi monitors, Optimus video card technology support, Wacom support, room acoustic correction support, HP Laserjet CP1025NW support, Brother DC1512 support, Bluetooth audio support, Cinelerra, Gimp or much better, Blender, video and photo noise removal software, Open Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, a powerful 3d modeling CAD, music tacking and production software, DVD and Bluray playback, DVD and Bluray authoring, driver support for Canon EOS, and all on one or at most two distros without any dependency conflicts. Windows can do all of this but I have yet to see one Linux distro handle everything. Like I said I would be happy to have two distros to do it all, but who has time to research and install everything over and over again until you find something that doesn't break?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: strangersound on March 07, 2016, 11:12:48 pm
And when and why did Microsoft decide to ditch ACTUAL PROGRESS BARS?  What is with this bar that just slides back and forth eternally like a Cylon and doesn't indicate shit?

Yeah, I don't get that either. Talk about annoying. You don't know if something is even happening or it's crashed/stalled. I don't get why Microsoft always changes things that work already. It's like they are trying to annoy you. Kind of like the first time I tried to find "select all" on Windows 7 or 8 (I'm not sure which). I was helping my boy transfer some files from his camera and showing him how to do it. So I selected one file and then right clicked and was like "where the hell is select all"? So I go up to the menu bar figuring it would be under edit like it usually is...nope. I had to get my daughter and ask her where it might be (I hadn't used 7 or 8 yet) and we finally accidentally found it somewhere in some totally unobvious place. I probably couldn't find it again if I had to.

Kind of like Vista the first time I went to sort a folder by file type. Again, it was gone from the right click menu. And no matter how many times you go to folder options and add it to the list, it never sticks. Annoys me to no end. Kind of like how they always rearrange the control panel and rename stuff. Why the hell do they do these things?! They love to take a Windows "standard" way of doing things and change it every time they do a new OS. WHY?!?!?! Grrr....

And while I'm ranting, what sadistic monster decided how words in English should be spelled? There's no method to it at all. Madness, me thinks. ;)


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 07, 2016, 11:40:58 pm
Gimp doesn't come even close to the same capabilities as Photoshop CC. You are forgetting the many other pieces of software in Adobe CC.
Many people claim this, but it seems they never have any objective evidence to back it up. Have you asked for a certain feature on the gimp forums and not received a response? I'm sure you can do everything in GIMP that you can in Photoshop. It might have a learning curve initially, but everything does.
You are forgetting the many other pieces of software in Adobe CC.
There are alternatives to everything. There are many drawing programs that are a replacement for illustrator. Same for lightroom. I don't use these programs on a daily basis, but they are all still being developed, which means there is a community. OS software stops being updated if there is no user base or something superior has been created.
Blender does many good things, but its user friendliness is horrible compared to Vegas.
Easier to use than Blender initially but that's about it. I would prefer to use Premiere but I don't like either. Don't like blender that much as well. I don't think professional movies use any of these.

I understand if you have learned to use a specific program and don't want or have the time to switch to something else. But saying there are no alternatives that come close to a paid program is just ignorant. In reality I have found it to be the opposite. The #1 priority at any business is to to make money. Not a problem for an OS programmer as they code out passion, not because they're required to slave away at a company.
Believe me, I would love to dump MS altogether and never have to worry about being locked in to their crap, and not have to worry about what they are doing to me behind my back. The truth is that there is no one Linux distro and collection of software that runs on that one distro without dependency conflicts. I would even be happy to run two distros to make it all work, but I have yet to see it possible.

I need full color calibration on multi monitors, Optimus video card technology support, Wacom support, room acoustic correction support, HP Laserjet CP1025NW support, Brother DC1512 support, Bluetooth audio support, Cinelerra, Gimp or much better, Blender, video and photo noise removal software, Open Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, a powerful 3d modeling CAD, music tacking and production software, DVD and Bluray playback, DVD and Bluray authoring, driver support for Canon EOS, and all on one or at most two distros without any dependency conflicts. Windows can do all of this but I have yet to see one Linux distro handle everything. Like I said I would be happy to have two distros to do it all, but who has time to research and install everything over and over again until you find something that doesn't break?
I'm not sure what you mean by "dependency conflicts". Are you saying there isn't a single distro that supports all the packages you need? I've never found that to be an issue on Arch Linux.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 08, 2016, 12:02:18 am
GIMP doesn't do a proper CMYK colour model so it's entirely 100% useless for commercial print operation.

I can go on for hours on a reply here but it's 00:01 here and I'm tired :)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 08, 2016, 12:13:40 am
GIMP doesn't do a proper CMYK colour model so it's entirely 100% useless for commercial print operation.

I can go on for hours on a reply here but it's 00:01 here and I'm tired :)
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/CMYK_support_in_The_GIMP

Just to add, you have to take into account the user base when comparing open source and paid. If the application is niche, then spending a large amount of time for something that isn't going to be publicly used is a waste of time. You deserve and should get paid for developing something like that, because the business will use it to make money. Imagine a CAD program that simulates cpu fabrication. Who the hell would develop something like that for free, if even possible without a large amount of resources. Plus, who fabricates processors at home? Complete waste of time and ridiculous to open source something like that.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amyk on March 08, 2016, 03:58:42 am
Who the hell would develop something like that for free, if even possible without a large amount of resources. Plus, who fabricates processors at home? Complete waste of time and ridiculous to open source something like that.
You never know... http://p2pfoundation.net/Home_CMOS_Project (http://p2pfoundation.net/Home_CMOS_Project)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Muxr on March 08, 2016, 04:18:02 am
It is true there is no real alternative to Photoshop on Linux. You can run that stuff via wine, or pay for Crossover which makes it easier. But your mileage will vary.

This is why I think OS X is the best of both worlds. Photoshop runs natively, Final Cut Pro is just as good if not better than Vegas, and all the FOSS apps which are good, are a 1st rate citizen on OS X as well.

And for that one App you can't find on OS X, you can always just run it in VirtualBox or one of the other VM environments without a need for dual boot.

There are a lot of great FOSS apps, Inkscape, KiCad, Blender to name a few... But Gimp can't hold a candle to Photoshop.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 08, 2016, 05:24:24 am
Quote
I understand if you have learned to use a specific program and don't want or have the time to switch to something else. But saying there are no alternatives that come close to a paid program is just ignorant.

I have been told that many times, during the whole year I tried to use Linux to do all I wanted and could not. I tried, really really tried.

Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by "dependency conflicts". Are you saying there isn't a single distro that supports all the packages you need? I've never found that to be an issue on Arch Linux.

Yes, every time I tried to make everything work in one distro and installation, distro was broken at some time because of dependency conflicts. I gave up after a year. Pointless waste of time.

I made the offer before and I will make it again; I will pay a pretty high finder's fee for anyone who can demonstrate a fully working, one boot, one distro of Linux that will do what I have listed. Every time I asked for help on Linux forums, I was told I was too stupid to be using computers and should kill myself. I never found any help in any Linux forum. This was because I dared to point out the flaws of Linux as a fully working desk top OS.

And yes, I compiled my kernels, compiled my own version of software using whatever dependencies were necessary to try and make it compatible with my distro and it never worked in the end. If you are so sure you can get everything working that I have listed in the is thread on a properly supported Linux distro with all the software available in the native repository and will work on all of my hardware, I will pay you $1000. If you decide to take me up on this, I will supply a comprehensive list of all the software and hardware I use that works right now for me in Windows.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 08, 2016, 05:29:34 am
You never know... http://p2pfoundation.net/Home_CMOS_Project (http://p2pfoundation.net/Home_CMOS_Project)
Does this come with an OSHW fabrication plant?

It is true there is no real alternative to Photoshop on Linux.
There are a lot of great FOSS apps, Inkscape, KiCad, Blender to name a few... But Gimp can't hold a candle to Photoshop.
Still no actual evidence of commonly used features that are available in photoshop but not gimp...
Developers of free software have priorities. A feature that 1 in 1000 users actually needs gets put on the bottom of the to-do list. Adobe might implement a niche features because they exist to make the most profit, not to make everyone happy.

As I said, I highly doubt that a large portion of users begged for a useful feature and gimp devs refused because they simply didn't want to or know how to implement it. The original creators of such things obviously know what they're doing in their field. GEGL is coming in the next version, which will make gimp much more powerful.

Personally I don't care for any of these programs or being open source in general. Closed source freeware is where it's at. Having a single or small group of pros coding out of passion is how to make great software. Not publishing your source code is just a way of protecting your work and algorithms. Making it open would just have it stolen and taken credit for the next day, and probably implemented in a paid program. Never underestimate how pathetic people can be when trying to make an extra buck.
This is why I think OS X is the best of both worlds. Photoshop runs natively, Final Cut Pro is just as good if not better than Vegas, and all the FOSS apps which are good, are a 1st rate citizen on OS X as well.
I've used windows my entire life.. Starting from Windows 98 up to 10. It's a piece of crap. I've used osx on the side for 4 years. It pisses me off as much as windows. When you learn how to use linux and don't become terrified at a terminal window, you notice the advantages and realize it's the superior OS and the future.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 08, 2016, 06:30:09 am
Yes, every time I tried to make everything work in one distro and installation, distro was broken at some time because of dependency conflicts. I gave up after a year. Pointless waste of time.

I made the offer before and I will make it again; I will pay a pretty high finder's fee for anyone who can demonstrate a fully working, one boot, one distro of Linux that will do what I have listed. Every time I asked for help on Linux forums, I was told I was too stupid to be using computers and should kill myself. I never found any help in any Linux forum. This was because I dared to point out the flaws of Linux as a fully working desk top OS.

And yes, I compiled my kernels, compiled my own version of software using whatever dependencies were necessary to try and make it compatible with my distro and it never worked in the end. If you are so sure you can get everything working that I have listed in the is thread on a properly supported Linux distro with all the software available in the native repository and will work on all of my hardware, I will pay you $1000. If you decide to take me up on this, I will supply a comprehensive list of all the software and hardware I use that works right now for me in Windows.

Sounds frustrating. I wouldn't bother with linux forums for questions like that. They usually just refer you to the wiki, which is good, but you often need to figure it out yourself and google related questions/problems.

I'm a noob at linux. As I said, I've primarily used and know Windows, but got tired of the scam that is M$FT and most paid software and their NSA backdoors. Don't want your money either. Also, only you can demonstrate that all those work, because only you have your exact setup/configuration.


I need full color calibration on multi monitors, Optimus video card technology support, Wacom support, room acoustic correction support, HP Laserjet CP1025NW support, Brother DC1512 support, Bluetooth audio support, Cinelerra, Gimp or much better, Blender, video and photo noise removal software, Open Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, a powerful 3d modeling CAD, music tacking and production software, DVD and Bluray playback, DVD and Bluray authoring
Haven't played around with multi monitor color calibrations but system wide color management comes default with gnome. I would recommend dispcalgui for color managment. You can have more control within a color managed program like gimp. There is a guide on the arch wiki on getting optimus to work. You might need a module for some devices. Optimus does work though, as proven with laptops with igpu and a dedicated gpu. Same thing with wacom, check out the guide. Just packages and maybe modules. Not sure what you mean by room acoustic correction. If you're outputting an analog signal then you need support in the device driver and perhaps the audio application. If digital then it's up to your receiver. I can't test printer compatibility because I don't have that hardware. If linux drivers aren't available from the manufacturer then it's kind of their fault that you can't get it up and running instantly. Generic configurations should be possible but I have no clue if they will allow for all features. Bluetooth audio as in a headset or wireless speakers? Might require some tinkering. I'm sure this is doable but have no way of testing it. "Cinelerra, Gimp or much better, Blender, video and photo noise removal software, Open Office, Thunderbird, Firefox, a powerful 3d modeling CAD" These are all common programs, if your distro cannot function with these apps installed together, then I would trash it and not look back, because it's a piece of crap. I don't know of what you require in music production software, so I'll recommend audacity, which again you should have no problem with. From an enthusiasts perspective, windows seems better for media playback such as bluray. You have bundled filters/decoders and high quality renderers due to directx and everything that comes with it. That said, playing a dvd or bluray mux should be trivial with something like mpv. For authoring and other multimedia related questions I would check the doom9 forums.

I recommended Arch Linux (or similar like gentoo, etc.) for a reason. It comes bare minimum. The less stuff there is, and the less things the underlying code relies on to run stably, the less chance for conflicting packages or dependency problems. Getting your entire configuration running in linux isn't a 5 minute job unless you are familiar with how everything works and have expertise in doing it before. Configuring and messing around with linux is a great task when you're bored. Spend some free time if you have any / want to and try again. No point in changing your workflow just because you can to run on a different OS. But it shouldn't take a year to figure out if you can switch. Point is, linux should work for all setups, and is easier to work in once you get it going. Obviously there are complications with doing certain things or performing niche tasks, but there are solutions for everything. If there isn't a program, a driver or a module avaiable, then write your own  :-+ ;D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 08, 2016, 06:59:02 am
Armxnian:

Your suggestions are exactly what I don't want to do. I don't want to experiment and find and compile and write my own programs. I want to use my computer, not make it work. This is what always stops Linux from working for anyone who wants to more than a few things on one distro, everything is a gamble or hard work to get things all working. The best purpose of Linux existing on the desktop, is to learn to how to make Linux work on the desktop. As a useful tool for all purpose general computing forget it. I back up this statement by putting my money where my mouth is. Give me a supported distro that does everything I need, you get $1000. I think I will never pay out.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 08, 2016, 07:31:32 am
Damn, I spent an hour writing that.

It's not fair to say give me a Linux distro that does exactly what my windows system does, because Linux isn't windows. Also not fair to say you don't want to make it work. When you first used Windows and a program, you weren't an expert, you had to learn and make them work. A package manager makes your life easier. You download whatever you want (and its dependencies) in 1 second. In Windows you have to look for it. You update all your programs with a single command. If you let windows handle some driver updates, it installs outdated or incorrect versions and breaks your machine...

Your requirements aren't really that demanding. Your config should work in any distro. I recommend Arch, but you said you don't want to make your computer work. So what else have you tried? Many things are supported on Ubuntu and CentOS. I prefer Fedora for plug and play. That said, if your hardware or workflow was designed for Windows, then how do you expect to instantly port it to Linux and not have to configure anything? That's your limitation, not the kernel's or the distro's. I've installed everything I could think of on multiple distro's and in VMs and natively. No problems whatsoever. Not sure what else to say other than try again and troubleshoot if you run into problems.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 08, 2016, 09:59:03 am
A package manager makes your life easier. You download whatever you want (and its dependencies) in 1 second. In Windows you have to look for it. You update all your programs with a single command. If you let windows handle some driver updates, it installs outdated or incorrect versions and breaks your machine...

I'm a 25% time Linux sysadmin and 75% software engineer and have been using it for about 20 years solid. The package manager is great, when it works. Unfortunately today it's an asshat. I have a massive dependency stack on a particular version of uwsgi to resolve which means I need to eviscerate everything that CentOS+EPEL ship and install everything via pip, another package manager for python. And that has a dependency on a compiler toolchain on the target system. It's a rat's nest held at the mercy of your distribution vendor. Then there's the whole "let's import random shit from god knows who" situation on Ubunty (PPAs).

Oh and I've got to get from situation A -> B on 60 physical nodes running about 2000 processes entirely transparently using only ansible for automation.

Windows is no better for different reasons but there's no advantage either way.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 08, 2016, 01:23:57 pm
Damn, I spent an hour writing that.

It's not fair to say give me a Linux distro that does exactly what my windows system does, because Linux isn't windows. Also not fair to say you don't want to make it work. When you first used Windows and a program, you weren't an expert, you had to learn and make them work.

Not even close to the same. When I started using Windows, and Linux, I had to learn how to use them. That is different than making them work. Windows basically worked, and works, without me having to learn how to compile kernels and software. It was also very rare that installing a program would take down ten other programs or even the OS itself. That is what I mean by making it work, not understanding how to use it. And AGAIN! I tried to use Linux exclusively for a year and it was not possible. No one can tell me I didn't try to learn.

Your requirements aren't really that demanding. Your config should work in any distro. I recommend Arch, but you said you don't want to make your computer work. So what else have you tried? Many things are supported on Ubuntu and CentOS. I prefer Fedora for plug and play. That said, if your hardware or workflow was designed for Windows, then how do you expect to instantly port it to Linux and not have to configure anything? That's your limitation, not the kernel's or the distro's. I've installed everything I could think of on multiple distro's and in VMs and natively. No problems whatsoever. Not sure what else to say other than try again and troubleshoot if you run into problems.

Again. I tried to make things work in Linux. I adjusted my work flow. I searched for and compiled drivers and other software to make it work. I did this for a year. You can assert that what I want to do should work all you want. When it doesn't work, it doesn't. I tried Mandrake, Fedora, Mint, Pure Debian, and even special distros for multimedia production. IT DIDN'T WORK. Is that so hard to believe?

It always amazes me when people say Linux can do it all. Then when I bring up the things it couldn't do I get chastized for trying to make Linux do a similar task that a Windows OS can do without problems. Stop trying to say I wanted to make Linux work like Windows. I wanted to accomplish the same tasks, however it would be differently done or if I had to learn a new philosophy and how it worked. IT DIDN'T WORK.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on March 08, 2016, 02:51:49 pm
Yes, every time I tried to make everything work in one distro and installation, distro was broken at some time because of dependency conflicts. I gave up after a year. Pointless waste of time.
Could you elaborate on "dependency conflicts"?
What exactly refused to work with what?

It always amazes me when people say Linux can do it all.
Not that amazing, actually. It all goes down to perspective.
Windows is a consumer grade product, Linux is an industrial grade product.

An industrial solution can, in fact, do anything, but it won't "just do" it.
You are required to make it work (or hire people who will make it work for you).
While in a consumer solution all the "make it work" is already included in the package.

This is the difference in perspective which, i guess, makes the linux people yell at you.
That, or you had bad luck with dickhead concentrations.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 08, 2016, 04:00:07 pm
Wow....

How many times do I need to say that I worked with Linux for a year? I didn't just install it and expect to push buttons on the screen and have magic happen. What part of this is unclear? I did everything I could, the Linux way, to get the functionality I needed. It was not possible. Do I want a computer as a tool or as a means to an end itself? If I was interested in learning to program an OS, build and compile my own programs, and write hardware drivers, then Linux is perfect. If I want to use my computer and not have to compile my own kernel and use multi boot to avoid dependency conflicts in different programs, then it is unusable for the desktop how I want to use it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 08, 2016, 04:05:50 pm
Just ignore them and use what works for you. Hell I'm a Linux guy and it annoys the shit out of me on a daily basis and is definitely not perfect. When I was using Windows that annoyed the shit out of me on a daily basis and is definitely not perfect. Now I use both and they both annoy the shit out of me and they're definitely not perfect.

Life goes on...so many sides. Everyone wants you on theirs. Doesn't matter at the end of the day. What we create with the tools matters more than whether it's a CK or a Wera screwdriver.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on March 08, 2016, 05:11:35 pm
What part of this is unclear?
It's perfectly clear that Linux is not going to work for your use cases with any reasonable amount of effort.

I guess i tried to say it in too many words?

avoid dependency conflicts in different programs
I'd still like to know what kind of dependency conflicts you ran into.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 08, 2016, 06:05:28 pm
Quote
I'd still like to know what kind of dependency conflicts you ran into.

I can't remember all the details but all I know is that I could get maybe 70%of the programs that I wanted installed, and then the next program broke other programs or the OS.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 08, 2016, 10:53:10 pm
I shouldn't lose too much sleep over this argument if I were you.

Linux is very much 'by nerds, for nerds'. I've no doubt that, for the people who develop it, and for those people who want to use it within its capabilities, it's a perfectly acceptable solution.

Unfortunately, there also seems to be an underlying belief amongst that same community, that ease of use is somehow a weakness. That anyone who can't make Linux do what they need it to do, is personally deficient in some way, and whatever else they need to actually use a computer for, they should expect to have to invest significant time and effort in learning and customising what is, at the end of the day, a tool to do a job and not an end in itself.

More than anything else, IMHO, this pervasive attitude is what's prevented it from becoming mainstream. After all, if it's free, and it actually does what people need, why isn't it? It's been around for years... so what went wrong?

If my job is to slay dragons, I need a sword, and I just want to buy one that works. I don't want to waste my time learning to be a blacksmith too.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 08, 2016, 11:09:05 pm
Well said.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 08, 2016, 11:26:40 pm
Unfortunately, there also seems to be an underlying belief amongst that same community, that ease of use is somehow a weakness.
It's not a weakness in itself, but it is different.  It's a different way to design a system, it's a different way to use a system.  Increased ease of use is almost always associated with a reduction in flexibility.  You simply CANNOT have a GUI with one big button in the middle that does everything a user might need a computer to do.  The more flexibility and power you give to the user, the more complicated you make the interface, and the longer the learning process becomes.  It's a trade-off.  Windows errs on the sit-down-and-use-it side, isolating the user from the inner workings, in turn making it nearly impossible to fix when things go wrong and making certain tasks fundamentally impossible.  Linux errs on the flexibility/power side, which makes a lot more possible, and makes many tasks significantly faster, but it means there is a much steeper learning curve.

Most Linux users are of the belief that once you get past that initial learning curve, the benefits outweigh the time invested.  This isn't ALWAYS the case with EVERY application of course, it depends on what the user needs it for.  It does take a certain kind of person to want to push through that learning curve to reach that point as well, and not everybody cares enough to bother.  My wife certainly doesn't, and that's fine with me.

It's similar to automatic vs manual transmissions IMO.  The auto lets you sit down and drive with little effort, but it's more expensive, less reliable, requires more maintenance, reduces power, reduces gas mileage, and cuts back on your flexibility and control.  The manual takes much longer to learn, but once you're done you have complete control, and most people (in my experience) who go through the effort to learn how to drive a manual car end up preferring it.  Neither of them are globally better than the other, but one might be better than the other at certain tasks and for certain people.

Yes Linux can be a PITA at times, but I find Windows to be far more of a PITA far more often, which is why I use it as little as possible.  I still keep it around though because there are some programs I need it for.  I also keep Linux around because there are a LOT of programs and a LOT of jobs I simply can't do, at all, if I could only use Windows.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Votality on March 09, 2016, 12:10:12 am
You guys need to work in I.T.. You loose this evangelism for any particular platform. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on March 09, 2016, 02:38:38 am
It goes back to the old saying "Every OS Sucks"
I've had to use Windows on $work$ provided PC's for the last decade and I'll never use it on my own machine.  I've lost so much time to the random reboot or bluescreen, inability to resume, excel/word or sharepoint just eating my document, etc.  I've opened cases with Microsoft for servers I supported when, despite the enterprise license, deciding it was not longer legal or strange bugs that got a "won't fix" status.
The rare times I've had an issue with an open source program, I sign up for their forum, post and get a fix.  It just amazes me for the amount of $ that goes into close source software in all the development processes and qa testing that there are so many problems.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: miguelvp on March 09, 2016, 03:53:30 am
It goes back to the old saying "Every OS Sucks"
I've had to use Windows on $work$ provided PC's for the last decade and I'll never use it on my own machine.  I've lost so much time to the random reboot or bluescreen, inability to resume, excel/word or sharepoint just eating my document, etc.  I've opened cases with Microsoft for servers I supported when, despite the enterprise license, deciding it was not longer legal or strange bugs that got a "won't fix" status.
The rare times I've had an issue with an open source program, I sign up for their forum, post and get a fix.  It just amazes me for the amount of $ that goes into close source software in all the development processes and qa testing that there are so many problems.

That's pretty bad luck, I don't even remember when is the last time I got a blue screen of death, reboots or anything unexpected. Maybe they just give you subpar computers at work. Granted that our IT dept is really really good and they are the ones that investigate what systems we should use for our development environment.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 09, 2016, 06:42:00 am
Yep. We don't get any problems like that. Actually the last BSOD I had was about 2009.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 09, 2016, 07:32:19 am
Unfortunately, there also seems to be an underlying belief amongst that same community, that ease of use is somehow a weakness.
It's not a weakness in itself, but it is different.  It's a different way to design a system, it's a different way to use a system.  Increased ease of use is almost always associated with a reduction in flexibility.  You simply CANNOT have a GUI with one big button in the middle that does everything a user might need a computer to do.

I respectfully submit that by far and away the biggest growth area in computing devices, is in phones and tablets, where no other type of interface is possible.

I totally understand that producing a GUI represents a lot of work. I've done it. But it's not just 'wasted effort to save people who are lazy from having to learn anything'. A GUI isn't just a configuration device, it's a fantastic way to show off what a tool is actually capable of doing, or not doing.

Let me cite a concrete example. Not so many years ago I was running Ubuntu as my everyday desktop OS. It was around the time when wireless networking was really taking off, but manufacturers were reluctant to provide open source drivers for their wireless chipsets. So, getting wireless to work at all required a massive amount of effort by the developers... something for which, as a user, I'm both grateful and indifferent in equal measure.

Despite this, the difficult and important bit had actually been achieved. Provided I went through the hassle of downloading the Windows driver, extracting microcode from it using a command line tool, installing the right version of some package from somewhere, and sacrificing a chicken under a full moon, it worked.

Only... even after all this, the final 10% of effort simply hadn't been put in. There was no nice, simple drop-down box listing all available networks to choose from. No easy way to say "connect to this one automatically at start-up". Actually using the wireless network was still a pain, until several releases later when the UI was finally finished.

Quote
Most Linux users are of the belief that once you get past that initial learning curve, the benefits outweigh the time invested.

This particular user decided that permanently living on an uphill part of that curve was a painful waste of time for little or no actual benefit, gave up, and is now much happier and more productive with Windows.

Unfortunately, given the direction Windows is going, I may have to switch back. I don't relish the prospect. Dragons to slay, and all that.

Quote
Yes Linux can be a PITA at times, but I find Windows to be far more of a PITA far more often, which is why I use it as little as possible.  I still keep it around though because there are some programs I need it for.  I also keep Linux around because there are a LOT of programs and a LOT of jobs I simply can't do, at all, if I could only use Windows.

I completely agree. I use Cadence schematic and PCB software professionally, every day, and there's no OrCad for Linux.

Not sure there's any solution to that problem other than a separate Windows PC with a hardware firewall that only lets it access my file server, and nothing else.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kostas on March 09, 2016, 09:35:13 am
Gimp doesn't come even close to the same capabilities as Photoshop CC. You are forgetting the many other pieces of software in Adobe CC.
Many people claim this, but it seems they never have any objective evidence to back it up. Have you asked for a certain feature on the gimp forums and not received a response? I'm sure you can do everything in GIMP that you can in Photoshop. It might have a learning curve initially, but everything does.

I use both Linux and Windows and find Gimp a very nice piece of software. For the most part, it can do whatever Adobe Photoshop does, but it doesn't support 16bits per channel. A 48bit tiff file will open, but you get a warning that your photo will be converted to 8bits per channel and some information will be lost. This thing has dragged on for too long and it can be a show stopper. I find it weird that 16bits per channel aren't supported yet.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on March 09, 2016, 10:09:52 am
I find it weird that 16bits per channel aren't supported yet.
I find it weird that there are 16bit graphics formats out there in the world of 8bit display devices.

Having made a digital camera before, i understand why it might be needed, but the first step in the data processing pipeline was to convert to 8bit with preserving as much of the data as possible, exactly because there is nothing to support, work or just display a more-than-8 bit image.

So i would imagine the lack of support is due to the lack of imagination by the developers - the need for 16bit is not obvious by far.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 09, 2016, 10:19:28 am
I find it weird that there are 16bit graphics formats out there in the world of 8bit display devices.

Having made a digital camera before, i understand why it might be needed, but the first step in the data processing pipeline was to convert to 8bit with preserving as much of the data as possible, exactly because there is nothing to support, work or just display a more-than-8 bit image.

So i would imagine the lack of support is due to the lack of imagination by the developers - the need for 16bit is not obvious by far.

Actually you can buy up to 14 bit cameras or camcorders from Canon and Blackmagic, AND there are up to 12 bit LCD displays out there (36 bit total!) at an enormously high price point. For lower price, you can still get true 30 bit displays, which is far better than commonly used 18 or 20 bits displays (no, 24 bit is not true, it's usually 666 or 686).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Armxnian on March 09, 2016, 10:19:42 am
I use both Linux and Windows and find Gimp a very nice piece of software. For the most part, it can do whatever Adobe Photoshop does, but it doesn't support 16bits per channel. A 48bit tiff file will open, but you get a warning that your photo will be converted to 8bits per channel and some information will be lost. This thing has dragged on for too long and it can be a show stopper. I find it weird that 16bits per channel aren't supported yet.
It's coming in the next update which is the GEGL port.
https://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#when-will-gimp-support-hdr-imaging-and-processing-with-16bit-per-color-channel-precision (https://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#when-will-gimp-support-hdr-imaging-and-processing-with-16bit-per-color-channel-precision)

I find it weird that there are 16bit graphics formats out there in the world of 8bit display devices.

Having made a digital camera before, i understand why it might be needed, but the first step in the data processing pipeline was to convert to 8bit with preserving as much of the data as possible, exactly because there is nothing to support, work or just display a more-than-8 bit image.

So i would imagine the lack of support is due to the lack of imagination by the developers - the need for 16bit is not obvious by far.
16bpc is completely useless for display because no monitor can show it. And most people are happy with colors on a crappy 6bit dithered to 8bit TN panel. But for processing, the more precision the better.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 09, 2016, 10:23:28 am
the need for 16bit is not obvious by far.

It doesn't need to be "obvious", it just needs to be requested by those who have a requirement for it. Another example, I'm afraid, of the Linux community trying to tell their users what they do or don't need.

For what it's worth, 16 bit depth allows images to be manipulated while still retaining smooth gradations, even if a layer has been darkened by one process and then lightened by another. The extra detail isn't visible, but it is necessary to avoid unwanted quantisation during processing.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kostas on March 09, 2016, 10:28:08 am
I find it weird that 16bits per channel aren't supported yet.
I find it weird that there are 16bit graphics formats out there in the world of 8bit display devices.

Having made a digital camera before, i understand why it might be needed, but the first step in the data processing pipeline was to convert to 8bit with preserving as much of the data as possible, exactly because there is nothing to support, work or just display a more-than-8 bit image.

So i would imagine the lack of support is due to the lack of imagination by the developers - the need for 16bit is not obvious by far.

You may already know it, but sometimes you need to enhance a photograph and extract as much information as possible from highlights or shadows. This tiny bit of information can be critical and converting everything to 8bits per channel removes it. You may also get ugly "banding" when doing some processing exactly because of 8bits per channel. So yes, a display may only show 8bits per channel, but it can be irrelevant. Meanwhile, it's not that the developers aren't imaginative enough, because they are informed about the usefulness of such a feature. In the end, if Gimp is touted to be a Photoshop replacement, it needs to support some key things that Photoshop (as an industry standard) supports.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on March 09, 2016, 11:59:57 am
It goes back to the old saying "Every OS Sucks"
I've had to use Windows on $work$ provided PC's for the last decade and I'll never use it on my own machine.  I've lost so much time to the random reboot or bluescreen, inability to resume, excel/word or sharepoint just eating my document, etc.  I've opened cases with Microsoft for servers I supported when, despite the enterprise license, deciding it was not longer legal or strange bugs that got a "won't fix" status.
The rare times I've had an issue with an open source program, I sign up for their forum, post and get a fix.  It just amazes me for the amount of $ that goes into close source software in all the development processes and qa testing that there are so many problems.

That's pretty bad luck, I don't even remember when is the last time I got a blue screen of death, reboots or anything unexpected. Maybe they just give you subpar computers at work. Granted that our IT dept is really really good and they are the ones that investigate what systems we should use for our development environment.

It could be that the image they use is crap.  My wife's newish Window laptop hasn't BSOD'ed yet but it also refuses to turn off the speakers when she uses a headset or print on legal size paper, she has to borrow my Linux box for those things.  And it does decide to reboot for patches while she's working as well so to the end user who just lost their work its just as bad as a BSOD.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 09, 2016, 12:20:04 pm
And it does decide to reboot for patches while she's working as well so to the end user who just lost their work its just as bad as a BSOD.

Why don't you select "4 hours" and hit the "Postpone" button?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 09, 2016, 12:25:51 pm
Because users... sigh.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 09, 2016, 12:29:28 pm
Microsoft has chosen the default settings for Windows Update to be the most annoying possible. The same goes for pretty much everything else in Windows. To take control of Windows Update, go into the settings and change it to "Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them."
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 09, 2016, 01:05:22 pm
A bit out of topic for this page, but within the Linux vs. Windows discussion that's was going on a few pages ago.

Microsoft is going to support MS SQL Server on Linux starting mid-2017:

From the Official Microsoft Blog: https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2016/03/07/announcing-sql-server-on-linux/
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 09, 2016, 01:09:46 pm
Perfectly on topic. If you can afford SQL Server you can pay for a Windows Server license. Not sure why they are doing that.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 09, 2016, 01:12:50 pm
Perfectly on topic. If you can afford SQL Server you can pay for a Windows Server license. Not sure why they are doing that.

Possibly for migrating to a full *nix environment? Oracle and DB2 are too expensive, and MYSQL/Postgre are free. There gotta be some thing in between in terms of price and support -- that is MS SQL.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 09, 2016, 01:28:23 pm
Perfectly on topic. If you can afford SQL Server you can pay for a Windows Server license. Not sure why they are doing that.

IMHO, it's going to be quite damaging to Oracle. The Linux community has been quite angry at Oracle for what they did to MySQL (https://seravo.fi/2015/10-reasons-to-migrate-to-mariadb-if-still-using-mysql), and lots of people have since then moved from MySQL to MariaDB (100% compatible). Oracle, like blueskull wrote, is a lot more expensive than SQL Server. Many distros have been shipping with MariaDB instead of MySQL since 2015.

Besides, for many types of businesses, Microsoft's licensing programs are a lot more acessible than Oracle's. The college whose IT dept I run, uses MS SQL Server (for which I am also the DBA), because it was 1/20 of the price Oracle would be at the time. I stil had to pay licensing fees for the servers' OS (W2k8 R2), but I might save on that once SQL Server for linux is available.

MS SQL Server is a lot better than MySQL, MariaDB or Postgress, and only loses to Oracle and DB2 in some scenarios, but beats both of them hands down in price.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 09, 2016, 01:40:43 pm
No one likes Oracle. Apart from Larry. Larry likes his Island. And his yacht :) ... I'll probably get sued for this post....

Perfectly on topic. If you can afford SQL Server you can pay for a Windows Server license. Not sure why they are doing that.

Possibly for migrating to a full *nix environment? Oracle and DB2 are too expensive, and MYSQL/Postgre are free. There gotta be some thing in between in terms of price and support -- that is MS SQL.

I doubt it. There's no advantage as the transient knowledge is all tied to Windows. I'm the only guy in a 250 strong company who does both Windows and Linux stuff both in a professional capacity.

It runs rings around Oracle and DB2 in a few areas as well. We're mixed mode. Our SQL 2014 + Fusion IO + Enterprise SSD on a couple of high end HP DL series nodes flattens our equivalent specced Oracle Exadata cluster (which cost 10x the amount!)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on March 09, 2016, 02:08:07 pm
 I don't know about all the knowledge being tied to Windows. As a consultant I do a little of everything in mostly Windows environments - server stuff, lots of Exchange, SQL, and other things Microsoft. I've run into plenty of people who can run rings around me in SQL Server but have just the barest clue of how anything happens outside of the SQL environment. I think as long as they can manage the SQL side of things (and there are all sorts of command line options these days - so it's not just the Management Studio GUI), they won't care what the underlying OS is. This should be a very good thing for Microsoft. I've always felt that SQL Server was somewhat underrated, all the huge applications seem to gravitate to Oracle even though the capabilities are on par, and MS SQL is much more approachable. If you think Microsoft licensing policies are Draconian, don't even glance at Oracle's. You can usually tell when Larry needs a new yacht, a required incremental update with huge fees is released.  ;D

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 09, 2016, 06:19:39 pm
I almost exclusively use Linux, but I do have a few Win 7 VMs around for those programs that need them.

This morning I decided to update one of them, since it had been a while.  In the past I've been burned by trying to do too many updates at once, so I started with one.  Just one update, around 5 MB, some Silverlight security patch.  THREE HOURS LATER it's still running, "0 KB total, 0% complete".  The indicators on the VM show almost constant HD and net activity, and C:\Windows\Software Distribution has increased in size by EIGHT HUNDRED MB, and is STILL GROWING.

Quick update - it's been over 48 hours, and they're still going.
That first update took somewhere around 5 hours to complete.  The next 8 updates took about 4 hours, the next 10 about 6 hours.  At this point I checked for more updates, which took about 4-5 hours.  I'm currently about 2 hours into another batch of 11 updates, with no sign of progress.

This machine has never had this problem before.  It's very fast, no hiccups or other delays, and it's always done updates in a reasonable amount of time.  The last time I did updates was in September 2015, and during some searching to identify the problem I found this:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-update/windows-7-update-install-time-taking-a-very-long/f49298d1-860f-49c7-8640-960afe3e9832?page=1 (http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-update/windows-7-update-install-time-taking-a-very-long/f49298d1-860f-49c7-8640-960afe3e9832?page=1)

Windows IT pro after Windows IT pro talking about the ten-fold increase in update times required on Windows 7 starting around September 2015, right after Microsoft released Windows 10.

I'm fairly confident this behavior is intentional now...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 09, 2016, 06:48:42 pm
Do you have an SSD and is it an SP1 disk? Initial update run takes ~40 mins on an SP1 disk and requires a couple of reboots only. This is normal. There are a lot of updates! You can use wsusoffline to do this in one go if you have to do it often.

The trick is to run sysprep afterwards without the generalise option then use a USB utility disk of some sort to copy the hard disk to a portable disk (i use a Linux boot CD and DD/gzip). Then if you screw the install, dd it back again and go through the OOBE and restore your data. You can reimage your system in a few minutes then.

I did a fresh win10 build 1511 install on my laptop today (6 year old X201) and it took 8 minutes to install and then 5 to do updates. That's because the previous 20-odd years of NT updates are rolled into the wim image on the disk.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 09, 2016, 06:55:22 pm
Do you have an SSD and is it an SP1 disk?
Yes and yes.  It's not a new install either, it's been around for a long time, it's just been about 5 months since the last system update.  Everything else on the machine is behaving completely normal.

I did a fresh win10 build 1511 install on my laptop today (6 year old X201) and it took 8 minutes to install and then 5 to do updates. That's because the previous 20-odd years of NT updates are rolled into the wim image on the disk.
That's Windows 10, the delays appear to be isolated to Windows 7, and started shortly after Windows 10 was released.  I have a strong suspicion this is the result of Microsoft intentionally trying to piss off Windows 7 users to the point of doing the "upgrade".  The timing is just too coincidental and the problem too widespread (see the replies in the link in my previous post).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 09, 2016, 06:58:48 pm
It's not intentional - the whole MSI/MSU update process is a mess and NTFS sucks on lots of small files. This makes the whole thing a gigantic turd as time progresses. I have it on good authority that it's going to be fixed for good in the next couple of years.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on March 09, 2016, 07:59:57 pm
On topic of Linux usability: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/knock-off-usb-blaster-in-linux-issues/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/knock-off-usb-blaster-in-linux-issues/)
Another one is that a CP2102 USB-to-serial adapter can't be set to 128000 baud rate, while in Windows it just does.
It's these minor issues that nag at you...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 09, 2016, 08:14:10 pm
Might be old news, but today Microsoft is releasing its own Linux distro, SONIC, and it is based on Debian.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/09/microsoft_sonic_debian/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/09/microsoft_sonic_debian/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on March 10, 2016, 01:05:41 am
And it does decide to reboot for patches while she's working as well so to the end user who just lost their work its just as bad as a BSOD.

Why don't you select "4 hours" and hit the "Postpone" button?

In Win 8+ it doesn't always ask.  I found the MSKB a while back that says basically if they deem the patch critical enough it will install/reboot without prompting.
$work$ they push out the patches and will force reboots as well.  Two laptops ago they handed me a freshly imaged one and once I logged on it tried to install so many patches at once it borked itsself and had to be re-imaged.
Then there are all the times I edited a document in Sharepoint and came into work the next day and the changes weren't there.  Or the .tmp files left from an Excel crash.  Both unrelated to the OS but M$ products.  Or the typeperf cpu% bug in Server 2003.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 10, 2016, 08:54:04 am
Another one is that a CP2102 USB-to-serial adapter can't be set to 128000 baud rate, while in Windows it just does.

It is not even a standard baud rate. GNU termios.h does not support B128000 at all.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: elgonzo on March 14, 2016, 03:49:26 pm
Has anyone experience with FreeBSD as desktop OS?

While i am (still) a happy user of Win 7, it has been clear to me since many weeks now that Windows 10 and MS's apparent strategy of SaaS/DaaS and user tracking at OS level is not something i can agree with. Well, i certainly also do not agree with MS abusing the Windows update mechanism to sneak in Win10 ad/nag ware. Generally speaking, i align with opinions as voiced by AndyC_772 (and certainly by others as well, but don't expect me to read every single post in a 13-page thread ;) ), so there is no need to repeat here my almost identical sentiment.

OSX is not a desired option, as my current hardware is too good/powerful to just 'throw it away' just for a Mac, and i have no desire to turn my PC into a Hackintosh with all those possible hardware/driver problems that i might or might not have to face, who knows...

Which leaves me with Linux or FreeBSD. FreeBSD is preferred, because the [Free]BSD licensing model is so much saner and nicer than the cancerous virulent GPL which seems to be so prevalent in the Linux environment. A heavy emphasis on GPL is not a K.O. criteria for a Linux distro, but it makes me lean towards FreeBSD (assuming FreeBSD is usable as a no-hassle, practical desktop OS).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 14, 2016, 03:57:36 pm
A freebsd desktop isn't much hassle. A freebsd laptop is.

Probably worth a look at PCBSD which is a customised freebsd http://www.pcbsd.org/ (http://www.pcbsd.org/)

Agree with GPL. Total PITA
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: elgonzo on March 14, 2016, 04:16:17 pm
A freebsd desktop isn't much hassle. A freebsd laptop is.

Probably worth a look at PCBSD which is a customised freebsd http://www.pcbsd.org/ (http://www.pcbsd.org/)

Agree with GPL. Total PITA
Yeah, i did read that FreeBSD has issues with hibernation/standby/wake up/resume or something along those lines. Fortunately, in my case it is not about a laptop but only a proper immobile PC.
Oh, also thanks for the link :)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: neil555 on March 14, 2016, 08:06:17 pm
Ghost BSD is also really good though getting the wifi to work is a bit of a pain on some laptops
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 15, 2016, 12:13:24 pm
My 2Cents

I have just done a win7 64 fresh reinstall after some stuff stopped working (mainly update) as it had not been on the net for over a year , time flies! , I had removed the raid array this time (SSD) and just went single as I had a plan .

Anyways update still played up so gave up on that SSD , did a clone to the other ssd and download the free win10 and installed , it took a hour maybe 2 to realize I actually disliked it very much , not because it was different or too hard to relearn not really any reason at all except it stunk in the gui imo , kiddy stuff .

So I cloned the fresh win7 over the fresh win10 and that SSD actually updated from the start and I have not re-tried the other ssd yet , btw I have not installed that update KB????? for win10 experience thing .

So in short as win7 will not be supported soon and if they stick with the kiddy stuff I'll be looking for something else I reckon in the future , disappointingly so btw .

Russia needs to invent a OS platform .

Imo
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 15, 2016, 01:15:34 pm
If you want a "proper" Win7 install, there are several windows updates you need to disable. All of them are either related to telemetry (aka "call home"!), Win10 preparation, components and download. Specifically, these updates are:

kb3123862,kb3112343,kb3112336,kb3083711,kb3083710,kb3083325,kb3083324,kb3080149,kb3075853,kb3075851,kb3075249,kb3072318,kb3068708,kb3068707,kb3065988,kb3065987,kb3064683,kb3058168,kb3050267,kb3050265,kb3046480,kb3044374,kb3035583,kb3022345,kb3021917,kb3015249,kb3014460,kb3012973,kb2999226,kb2990214,kb2977759,kb2976978,kb2952664,kb2922324,kb2902907
   
If you want to know if any of these are currently installed in your Windows 7 system, run the command below. Nothing will be changed, it will just report which ones of these hotfixes/updates are installed. The command can be run from a command prompt (all of it is a single line):


Code: [Select]
powershell -command get-hotfix -id kb3123862,kb3112343,kb3112336,kb3083711,kb3083710,kb3083325,kb3083324,kb3080149,kb3075853,kb3075851,kb3075249,kb3072318,kb3068708,kb3068707,kb3065988,kb3065987,kb3064683,kb3058168,kb3050267,kb3050265,kb3046480,kb3044374,kb3035583,kb3022345,kb3021917,kb3015249,kb3014460,kb3012973,kb2999226,kb2990214,kb2977759,kb2976978,kb2952664,kb2922324,kb2902907
If you want to manually force these updates to uninstall, run the commands below. I usually put it in a single .bat file:

Code: [Select]
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3123862
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3112343 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3112336 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3083711 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3083710 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3083325 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3083324 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3080149 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3075853 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3075851 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3075249 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3072318 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3068708 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3068707 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3065988 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3065987 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3064683 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3058168 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3050267 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3050265 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3046480 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3044374 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3035583 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3022345 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3021917 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3015249 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3014460 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:3012973 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:2999226 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:2990214 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:2977759 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:2976978 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:2952664 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:2922324 
wusa /uninstall /quiet /norestart /kb:2902907 

The commands above will uninstall all of the Win10 and telemetry related hotfixes/updates, in reverse order they have been installed. It is safe to run them even if the hotfix hasn't been installed (nothing will happen in such case). Some hotfixes take up to 10 min to be uninstalled. Reboot after running the commands, and then hide these hotfixes from Windows Update in the control panel so they don't get installed again.

If you are running a fresh win7 install, just hide these hotfixes before they get installed.

Russia needs to invent a OS platform .

Your wish has been granted: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-operating-system-to-launch-in-next-decade/536990.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-operating-system-to-launch-in-next-decade/536990.html)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on March 15, 2016, 01:26:36 pm
Just use the Aegis script to do all the hard work:

https://tiny.cc/aegisvoat
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 15, 2016, 01:31:04 pm
Russia needs to invent a OS platform .

http://reactos.org/ (http://reactos.org/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 15, 2016, 01:38:25 pm
Thanks for the time to do all that post AlxDroidDev , i'll tackle those tomorrow  , I did not mention in my post that I have not let all or most of those optional updates run and hid them so we'll see what's in there anyway , I'm waiting for more MBB (Mobile Broadband Data) next week but its great for your assumptions and assistance .

Re the bat file , just copy those in notepad and save as "all files"? , btw I use notepad++ its really good imo .

Re the Russians , about time too and thanks for the link to read , I hope there is BIG buttons to press on it , it would not surprise me if others were at it too out of necessity , at least there will be no worry's on getting spied on (an internal mind joke here) as its been happening for years via the western world but its supposed to be the east , so the east will not have to be catching up aye , imo ....

Thanks again .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 15, 2016, 01:44:31 pm
Russia needs to invent a OS platform .

http://reactos.org/ (http://reactos.org/)

That's going on the spare SSD (still).

Edited> https://reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality#Introduced_in_Windows_7
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 15, 2016, 02:23:34 pm
You're welcome!

Re the bat file , just copy those in notepad and save as "all files"? , btw I use notepad++ its really good imo .

Yes. Don't forget to add the .bat extension. If you have UAC enabled or are running from a non-privileged account, you will need to run as administrator.

For your convenience, I've attached the .bat file (zipped) below. It is exactly what I've posted above, but the report is shown after the unwanted hotfixes are removed.  I've used this .bat file on my windows 7 machines both at work and at home. It will also remove some telemetry components from Windows 2008 Server.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on March 15, 2016, 02:26:06 pm
Russia needs to invent a OS platform .
Other than Linuxes, there is ReactOS... Which is nowhere near usability yet, but solves problems every now and then.

Your wish has been granted: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-operating-system-to-launch-in-next-decade/536990.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-operating-system-to-launch-in-next-decade/536990.html)
Unfortunately, there is more money redistribution than actual work.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 15, 2016, 02:40:25 pm
You're welcome!

Re the bat file , just copy those in notepad and save as "all files"? , btw I use notepad++ its really good imo .

Yes. Don't forget to add the .bat extension. If you have UAC enabled or are running from a non-privileged account, you will need to run as administrator.

For your convenience, I've attached the .bat file (zipped) below. It is exactly what I've posted above, but the report is shown after the unwanted hotfixes are removed.  I've used this .bat file on my windows 7 machines both at work and at home. It will also remove some telemetry components from Windows 2008 Server.

Ok I'm about to do all that when i log off here , i'm not even bothering to check whats there , just clicka the file , thanks ..
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 15, 2016, 02:42:31 pm
Russia needs to invent a OS platform .
Other than Linuxes, there is ReactOS... Which is nowhere near usability yet, but solves problems every now and then.

Your wish has been granted: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-operating-system-to-launch-in-next-decade/536990.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-operating-system-to-launch-in-next-decade/536990.html)
Unfortunately, there is more money redistribution than actual work.

That's sad to hear Artlay , i mean sad to hear that the no distribution to Me , cheers .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 15, 2016, 02:57:48 pm
You're welcome!

Re the bat file , just copy those in notepad and save as "all files"? , btw I use notepad++ its really good imo .
For your convenience, I've attached the .bat file (zipped) below. It is exactly what I've posted above, but the report is shown after the unwanted hotfixes are removed.  I've used this .bat file on my windows 7 machines both at work and at home. It will also remove some telemetry components from Windows 2008 Server.

I saw the bottom bits 'powershell -command get-hotfix -id'  in the bat file and removed them and then ran it not 2 minutes ago , all is well .

Then ran the powershell command and Red nothing , thanks ..
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: mikerj on March 15, 2016, 03:30:04 pm
Russia needs to invent a OS platform .
Other than Linuxes, there is ReactOS... Which is nowhere near usability yet, but solves problems every now and then.

I'd forgotten all about ReactOs.  It seems to have made some pretty big leaps in functionality since I last looked at it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 15, 2016, 03:54:49 pm
I think every major country has its own *nix distribution for high security or military use.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 24, 2016, 08:04:58 am
Once again, today, through Windows Update Microsoft has tried to force the "Get Windows 10" app on a computer of mine. Windows Update had it flagged as both "new" and "important".

It is neither.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583

Is Microsoft really that desperate?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 24, 2016, 08:22:44 am
Once again, today, through Windows Update Microsoft has tried to force the "Get Windows 10" app on a computer of mine. Windows Update had it flagged as both "new" and "important".

It is neither.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583

Is Microsoft really that desperate?

Be graceful to US laws. In China, M$ forcibly upgraded a small fraction users' Win7 (illegal, but seems no real punishment was given, but the media have bashed M$ quite a bit).
M$ definitely want to move from a software vendor to a service provider. That's the exact reason why I decided to install Ubuntu on my new workstation with Win7 in VM.
Who the hell knows if I install Win7 as host system, whether it will auto upgrade it to Win10 or not, and possibly install some evil DRM or PRISM software on my computer.
Despite I like Win10, and use it daily on my laptop, I do not like someone putting it in my PC without my consent, and my love to Win10 only stops at laptop, not desktop.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: German_EE on March 24, 2016, 09:04:09 am
Yesterday I spent six hours removing all the 'Get Windows 10' nagware from the computers of a local company, I then billed them 300 Euro for my time and the money will probably be in my account this morning. The owner of the company plans to invoice Microsoft Germany*** for this amount and, if the invoice remains unpaid, the next step is the Small Claims Court through what is called the 'Mahnverfahren' process.

German law regarding unpaid bills are quite strict and under some circumstances the court can declare a company bankrupt if they do not pay their invoices. This could get interesting  :popcorn:



*** The secret here is to invoice the German office rather than the head office in the USA, that way everything will be dealt with under German law.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 24, 2016, 09:50:00 am
Similar rules in the UK. Justice is served against even the biggest companies including banks!

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2007/jan/20/accounts.saving (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2007/jan/20/accounts.saving)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 24, 2016, 02:33:22 pm
I hate the general direction of MS.  Cloud stuff, all the spying, trying to force updates etc...  I just disabled updates on my win7 machine for now, I only use it for gaming.  I know there's ways to stop win10, just did not really bother yet.

Linux Mint is my daily use machine as a few years ago.  Once you get going I find Linux is actually easier.  My only grippe with Linux is the lack of standardization.  Trying to google how to do something is like pulling teeth because each distro puts files or options in different places.  There needs to be a committee or something to try to encourage standards.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 24, 2016, 03:11:46 pm
I have been coexisting with W10 for a while.  Not liking it, but stuck with several programs I use that are Windows based that I haven't found suitable Linux alternatives for, plus developing programs that sell into that market. The last update infuriated me by removing IE from my system.  Didn't ask, just disappeared it.  I don't like Windows replacement, and already was using Chrome, but want IE for some web sites and for testing.

Since IE is their program it is probably totally legal, but wow.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 24, 2016, 04:17:13 pm
It's their attitude that they have the right to take over control of your PC that has turned me against Microsoft. Well, that and the spying and data mining and uncontrollable telemetry. I've used Windows for over 20 years, but Windows 10 has forced me to draw a line in the sand.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 25, 2016, 06:43:24 am
After what I did , and I have been watching what's going on since , and all that's been updated is MSE definitions since my post a few posts ago Get Windows 10 has just turned up near the clock and nothing has supposedly been updated !
Just came across this link looking for KB305583
http://www.infoworld.com/article/2922604/microsoft-windows/microsoft-re-re-re-issues-controversial-windows-10-advertising-patch-kb-3035583.html (http://www.infoworld.com/article/2922604/microsoft-windows/microsoft-re-re-re-issues-controversial-windows-10-advertising-patch-kb-3035583.html)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 25, 2016, 07:09:04 am
Looking about on the computer
Update for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB3035583)

Installation date: ?25/?03/?2016 3:05 AM

Installation status: Successful

Update type: Recommended

It was hidden anyway at the start , also only notify if updates are available and choose them if applicable is set , recommended ones are not even supposed to self install , yet it got in ?..
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: TerraHertz on March 25, 2016, 11:06:38 am
This is not Windows related, but funny because it shows up Microsoft being retarded, as usual:

  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-24/microsofts-twitter-chat-robot-devolves-racist-homophobic-antisemitic-obama-bashing-p (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-24/microsofts-twitter-chat-robot-devolves-racist-homophobic-antisemitic-obama-bashing-p)
  Microsoft's Twitter Chat Robot Quickly Devolves Into Racist, Homophobic, Nazi, Obama-Bashing Psychopath

So many LOLs with attempts at AI. Microsoft trying for AI seems particularly doomed, since Microsoft itself isn't intelligent, or even capable of understanding the concept of intelligence.
I'm looking forward to the day when MS pushes an auto-update intended to turn Win10 into their idea of an AI. "Because users will find it so helpful."

Best quote from that article:
Quote
“Godwin’s law.” This states as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches.
I didn't cut off the "one", they did. Non-technical writers mangling scientific/mathematical terminology is a given.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 25, 2016, 04:43:29 pm
Am I also the only one that can't stand this whole "modern look".  Not only Windows, but a lot of websites now too.  Everything seems to be tailored for phones and tablets now, with bigger fisher price buttons and stuff.  Maybe I'm just old school, but I see mobile devices as accessories, not replacements for a real computer.  These companies will have to pry my computers from my cold dead hands, and it won't be without a fight.  I do bite.  :P
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: zal42 on March 25, 2016, 04:46:23 pm
Am I also the only one that can't stand this whole "modern look".

You're not the only one by a longshot. It's just the latest fad, though. It will pass. Hopefully not to something worse.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 25, 2016, 05:02:27 pm
This is not Windows related, but funny because it shows up Microsoft being retarded, as usual:

  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-24/microsofts-twitter-chat-robot-devolves-racist-homophobic-antisemitic-obama-bashing-p (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-24/microsofts-twitter-chat-robot-devolves-racist-homophobic-antisemitic-obama-bashing-p)
  Microsoft's Twitter Chat Robot Quickly Devolves Into Racist, Homophobic, Nazi, Obama-Bashing Psychopath

So many LOLs with attempts at AI. Microsoft trying for AI seems particularly doomed, since Microsoft itself isn't intelligent, or even capable of understanding the concept of intelligence.
I'm looking forward to the day when MS pushes an auto-update intended to turn Win10 into their idea of an AI. "Because users will find it so helpful."

Best quote from that article:
Quote
“Godwin’s law.” This states as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches.
I didn't cut off the "one", they did. Non-technical writers mangling scientific/mathematical terminology is a given.

I had a quick look and read of the link , it also could be the anti anti (the reverse reverse psychology) by the Skynet scenario , there are or would be absolutely all boundaries it'll cross as it ain't human , yet "is" intelligent imo .

Anyway I uninstalled that KB3035583 again and hidden it again and so far it has not been back .

All this drama with MS lately takes me back to when Steam (Pc game client) came out , it took over anything to do with the games and people loved the thing and probably still do , I refused to be involved at my cost ie: not playing the latest and greatest which coincidently all or seems like all have turned into mindless garbage for the kiddies , similarities to MS? , I defiantly know it's not just me getting older and less wiser , crakkin the sh_ts ? over for now , overanout .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 25, 2016, 05:06:15 pm
Am I also the only one that can't stand this whole "modern look".

You're not the only one by a longshot. It's just the latest fad, though. It will pass. Hopefully not to something worse.

I want to fill in here about 60 or so Ha Ha's as if doing a real long belly gut-wrenching long laugh , I'm lazy .

Ha !
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 25, 2016, 06:32:09 pm
All this drama with MS lately takes me back to when Steam (Pc game client) came out , it took over anything to do with the games and people loved the thing and probably still do

I was skeptical as hell when it first came out but Steam has turned out to be and proven itself to be able to remain "DRM done as right as it can be." It's probably also single handedly responsible for evening the playing field for PC games towards the consumer quite a bit. It's also made indie games much more visible and in general easier to sort the wheat from the chaff. Which leads on to:

Quote
I refused to be involved at my cost ie: not playing the latest and greatest which coincidently all or seems like all have turned into mindless garbage for the kiddies

And all modern music is crap and there wasn't a single bad song brought out back in the day...

If you really think all recent games are mindless garbage compared to those from the past you're wearing blinkers and purposely ignoring a lot of stuff. I am a massive retro gamer but production values, story telling, character and world development amongst other things have come on leaps and bounds. In general the difficulty has been ramped down a bit but at the same times games are much more complex and involved, and TBH I'm almost middle aged now, I don't have the time to beat Contra with no cheats and with no saves any more :P
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 25, 2016, 07:10:30 pm
All this drama with MS lately takes me back to when Steam (Pc game client) came out , it took over anything to do with the games and people loved the thing and probably still do

I was skeptical as hell when it first came out but Steam has turned out to be and proven itself to be able to remain "DRM done as right as it can be." It's probably also single handedly responsible for evening the playing field for PC games towards the consumer quite a bit. It's also made indie games much more visible and in general easier to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I agree.  I avoided it for a long time, but it is actually a pretty good setup.  Good cross-platform compatibility, decent interface, anything you buy you own forever and can install/uninstall from any machine you want at any time, no need for an internet connection or a CD or other piece of hardware to play, and I think they're doing a lot more than anyone before them to advance Linux gaming.

They get my support.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 25, 2016, 07:20:45 pm
The biggest problem I have with Steam is it always wants to be running in the background, sniffing around who knows where and doing who knows what.

I'd like to be able to start a game, let Steam verify whatever DRM is necessary, then shut itself down and go away while I play the game.

I think GoG is a much better option for retro games. Tons of older games, and many newer ones, are available DRM free through GOG. Including some games that are DRMed if bought from Steam.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 25, 2016, 11:06:36 pm
I still don't like the idea of Steam, sure it's convenient for buying games and such, but I just hate the idea of having to rely on a 3rd party just for the game to work. Like if the steam servers are down, you can't even start a game (at least I don't think so).   But even game consoles are like that now.  I miss the NES days, you plug it in, it works. You plug it in today, 30 years later, and it still works. There's no servers, no 3rd parties, no updates, nothing. It's a self contained device. 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: elgonzo on March 25, 2016, 11:08:48 pm
I still don't like the idea of Steam, sure it's convenient for buying games and such, but I just hate the idea of having to rely on a 3rd party just for the game to work. Like if the steam servers are down, you can't even start a game (at least I don't think so).   But even game consoles are like that now.  I miss the NES days, you plug it in, it works. You plug it in today, 30 years later, and it still works. There's no servers, no 3rd parties, no updates, nothing. It's a self contained device.
+1 +1 +1
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 25, 2016, 11:16:00 pm
I agree that steam seems to be games DRM done right.

I still don't like the idea of Steam, sure it's convenient for buying games and such, but I just hate the idea of having to rely on a 3rd party just for the game to work. Like if the steam servers are down, you can't even start a game (at least I don't think so).   But even game consoles are like that now.  I miss the NES days, you plug it in, it works. You plug it in today, 30 years later, and it still works. There's no servers, no 3rd parties, no updates, nothing. It's a self contained device. 

You can disconnect from the network and play steam managed games???
So I am not sure how you think it is otherwise.

to get back on topic i might give the Steam OS a go at some stage too.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 26, 2016, 12:09:45 am
I just hate the idea of having to rely on a 3rd party just for the game to work. Like if the steam servers are down, you can't even start a game (at least I don't think so).

There is no need to be online at all to play, you only need to be able to access their server for initial installation of the game and updates.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 26, 2016, 12:22:04 am
Most of my Steam games don't start unless I log in to their service.

edit: Well, you're sort of right. You have to disable the computer's network connection, then log in to Steam and let it try and fail to connect. After all that, it will finally offer to let you play offline. Bit of a pain in the ass actually.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 26, 2016, 12:43:10 am
Most of my Steam games don't start unless I log in to their service.

edit: Well, you're sort of right. You have to disable the computer's network connection, then log in to Steam and let it try and fail to connect. After all that, it will finally offer to let you play offline. Bit of a pain in the ass actually.

It's only a pain for testing.  You wouldn't have to disable the network interface if you legitimately couldn't access their server...you'd just launch the game, it would try to connect, say it couldn't, and you'd select "play offline".  Pretty straight forward.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 26, 2016, 09:58:43 am
It's only a pain for testing.  You wouldn't have to disable the network interface if you legitimately couldn't access their server...you'd just launch the game, it would try to connect, say it couldn't, and you'd select "play offline".  Pretty straight forward.

If I know I'm going to be sans network for a bit and gaming, say I'm travelling and taking my laptop with a decent GPU, I go offline through the "Steam" menus "Go Offline" option, straight underneath the "Change User" menu entry before I set off. I know people who do this as a matter of course after installing a new game and only go online occasionally to grab updates.

EDIT: Just checked and it is persistent across restarts of the app, you just get given the option to try again in online mode so don't get where all this "you have to disable networking" rubbish comes from or that it's a pain to test when it's a simple first level menu option in the very first menu, not hidden deeply or obscurely named.

I miss the NES days, you plug it in, it works. You plug it in today, 30 years later, and it still works. There's no servers, no 3rd parties, no updates, nothing. It's a self contained device.

And if you have a buggy game there're no bug fix updates, no new content, blah blah blah. And games were released with game breaking bugs, some were never fixed. Swings and roundabouts.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: zal42 on March 26, 2016, 03:00:49 pm
And if you have a buggy game there're no bug fix updates, no new content, blah blah blah. And games were released with game breaking bugs, some were never fixed.

This is true, but personally, the downsides of requiring a network connection just to play a game dramatically outweigh the upsides. This direction the industry took is one of the reasons that I largely gave up on modern computer games.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 26, 2016, 03:50:18 pm
This is true, but personally, the downsides of requiring a network connection just to play a game dramatically outweigh the upsides. This direction the industry took is one of the reasons that I largely gave up on modern computer games.

Luckily Steam has avoided building that sort of crap in and even EA seem to be giving up on it. It may have taken years of outcry and them destroying Maxis to do it but hopefully they have learned that lesson.

I had hopes that Minecrafts unexpected and huge success would convince publishers of what a lot of developers already know, DRM does not stop piracy and at worst f*&ks off your legitimate customers making them less likely to pay for your games in the future so more than likely encourages piracy, but that's still an uphill struggle.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 26, 2016, 04:05:30 pm
I started this thread as M$'s upgrading policy was threatening my PC, and now I am happy with my newly built $4k desktop workstation running Ubuntu Mate, and Win7 in a VM. Anyway I have one extra Ultimate license. I hope M$ will learn to respect the users before they make Win7 obsolete, otherwise it gives a good reason to pirate Win7, as well as a good reason for governments to make pirate Win7 legitimate.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 26, 2016, 06:18:32 pm
Luckily Steam has avoided building that sort of crap in and even EA seem to be giving up on it. It may have taken years of outcry and them destroying Maxis to do it but hopefully they have learned that lesson.

That's worth knowing, thanks. I've always felt it does the developers of a game a tremendous disservice, to publish that game with invasive and pointless requirements to create some kind of social media account, log in, upload 'achievements' and so on.

I don't want to do those things. I don't care about your 'social platform', I don't want to join your forum, or to have anyone track how often I play a game, and you can shove your achievements somewhere dark and warm.

How about: I give you some money, you send me your game, I play the game whenever and wherever I like until I'm bored of it. Is that really so much to ask?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: zal42 on March 26, 2016, 06:30:59 pm
Luckily Steam has avoided building that sort of crap in

True. I used to use Steam and am very familiar with it. But even though Steam does this sort of thing in a less obnoxious way (primarily by allowing offline play), I still find it annoying enough that I stopped using it. I suppose that if a game came out that was truly exceptional I would be willing to use Steam to get it, but I have yet to see that game.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 27, 2016, 02:37:41 am
Luckily Steam has avoided building that sort of crap in and even EA seem to be giving up on it. It may have taken years of outcry and them destroying Maxis to do it but hopefully they have learned that lesson.
How about: I give you some money, you send me your game, I play the game whenever and wherever I like until I'm bored of it. Is that really so much to ask?

Exactly my sentiment , thanks for posting as it makes it easier for me so I do not have to type a lot .
After paying out big money sometimes $100au per game , then to have a second party to control ones gaming with all those stats and other BS reminded me of MS , then there is all that "cloud" crap , I just don't want or need it !

At the start of steam it said it was there to stop piracy , help developers and the worlds coming to a end and all that BS , well just going by my experience they (the developers) have missed out on all my money , so Ha , but no doubt someone has made a packet .

A few years back I purchased a Razer KB/wireless Mouse , to use their software to enable features on the KB and mouse one had to be logged in and only then download the software (Synapse) for the KB (But i have recently found mouse only software) , the main selling feature was "cloud" to save your settings of the KB/M ,,, WHAT save settings for a 2 minute time to reset them manually , its just garbage and since "cloud" is out there it just has to be used , all imo .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 27, 2016, 03:19:24 am
I am now offering $2000usd to anyone who can show me a Linux distro that will do what I want. My needs are shown in earlier posts and a full specification will be provided to those who seriously want to get the $2000.

 :box:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on March 27, 2016, 04:07:25 am
Yes there are some out here that are well aware that Win7 is all we got left and know it .

I'm waiting for the Russians ! , or China , only then we might get a decent operable operating system for a DeskTop computer .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 27, 2016, 06:59:11 am
I am now offering $2000usd to anyone who can show me a Linux distro that will do what I want. My needs are shown in earlier posts and a full specification will be provided to those who seriously want to get the $2000.
 :box:

Maybe you can link the needs or restate them. Just to make it easier. than going thru 15 pages of this thread.

And also I suggest a 3rd party arbiter if you want to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 27, 2016, 11:22:54 am
I am now offering $2000usd to anyone who can show me a Linux distro that will do what I want. My needs are shown in earlier posts and a full specification will be provided to those who seriously want to get the $2000.
 :box:

Maybe you can link the needs or restate them. Just to make it easier. than going thru 15 pages of this thread.

And also I suggest a 3rd party arbiter if you want to be taken seriously.

If someone can't look for the information to earn the $2k, then I hardly think they are going to work to actually find the distro. If someone wants to take me up on the offer, it will be handled by an arbiter.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 27, 2016, 11:38:46 am
the main selling feature was "cloud" to save your settings of the KB/M ,,, WHAT save settings for a 2 minute time to reset them manually , its just garbage and since "cloud" is out there it just has to be used , all imo .

Cloud settings for a keyboard and mouse? Oh, my  |O  :palm:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 27, 2016, 03:19:27 pm
I am now offering $2000usd to anyone who can show me a Linux distro that will do what I want. My needs are shown in earlier posts and a full specification will be provided to those who seriously want to get the $2000.
 :box:

Find me a single OS that'll do everything I want and I'll have a go for free:

Resume from suspend has to work with GTX690s and GTX980s, all my Steam games have to work, needs to be low latency or preferably real time for live audio processing, must have D3D12, Vulkan and Metal support, and use an FS that doesn't make building none trivial projects a pain due to slow handling of small files...

Really when you have broad usage needs complaining that one OS won't do everything is like complaining you can't solder with a hammer. Every tool has its place.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 27, 2016, 04:10:08 pm
Really when you have broad usage needs complaining that one OS won't do everything is like complaining you can't solder with a hammer. Every tool has its place.

Except.... I have been told many times that Linux can do anything, is better than Windows, and that I am a noob who shouldn't even be using computers because I am too stupid to make Linux do what I want. So I have put my money where my mouth is. I have said that Linux is not as useful on the desktop as Windows. Linux elitists tell me that Linux can do everything better than Windows. I am sure I will never pay out.

I am not asking for an OS to do everything possible to conceive. I am asking Linux to do only what I can already do with Windows. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 27, 2016, 04:21:39 pm
Really when you have broad usage needs complaining that one OS won't do everything is like complaining you can't solder with a hammer. Every tool has its place.

Except.... I have been told many times that Linux can do anything, is better than Windows, and that I am a noob who shouldn't even be using computers because I am too stupid to make Linux do what I want. So I have put my money where my mouth is. I have said that Linux is not as useful on the desktop as Windows. Linux elitists tell me that Linux can do everything better than Windows. I am sure I will never pay out.

I am not asking for an OS to do everything possible to conceive. I am asking Linux to do only what I can already do with Windows. Nothing more.

I agree with you about the attitude on the part of Linux advocates.  But you are doing the same thing.  There are many things that Linux in one or the other of its variants does very well.  And many things that neither system is superior on, just different.  The unfortunate difference to me (I am a dominant Windows user) is that Microsoft is de-emphasizing the desktop aspect of the system, which is 99% of what I care about, and at the same time switching to a subscription system and taking more invasive control over what is on your computer.  So in a year or two I will be paying $50 or $100 a year to use a system that periodically takes over and tells me that my selections on the user interface are no good, and is likely to support my needs less and less.  It is already causing me some pain, and the trend looks terrible.  I have already switched away from the Microsoft Office products which paved the way on this path, and it seems more and more likely that I will feel the need to switch away from their operating system.  I would be there now if it weren't for a number of key programs that are available in Windows form only.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on March 27, 2016, 04:24:59 pm
Except.... I have been told many times that Linux can do anything
Whoever said that is an idiot
I am not asking for an OS to do everything possible to conceive. I am asking Linux to do only what I can already do with Windows. Nothing more.
That's the problem, your entire software base is designed around what's compatible on Windows.  You're not asking Linux to be a good desktop, you're asking Linux to do exactly what you have found to work correctly for you in Windows.  Linux is not Windows.  It does not do the same things, and it does not do them in the same way.  It has different incompatibilities and different hardware/software support.  Had you started with Linux, built up a suite of software you found to work well together and do the job to your level of satisfaction, and then tried to move, verbatim, to Windows, you would have the exact same problem.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on March 27, 2016, 04:49:21 pm
Actually moving from Linux to windows is easy, as most of the software on Linux is either Open Source, or has multiplatform support as a standard. Very rare to find a Windows program that also is built for any other OS, most of the time it only runs under Windows, and often only on a certain version or a certain type. Most common is stuff that only runs on XP32bit, or only runs on Win7, and refuses or dies if you try another Windows version, though it might install and appear to work partly.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: German_EE on March 27, 2016, 04:58:27 pm
I could not have put it better.

Here is the problem with Linux (and I speak here as a daily Linux user). I could configure a Linux PC that would provide a very close emulation of a Windows 7 machine but instead use Firefox and Libre Office, this would be a good choice for a large number of MS Windows users. I could create a second Linux PC that provided a backup storage system for someone with a media library complete with automated backups and a RAID array. I could also configure a Linux PC that could operate as a high performance computing engine which, until a few years ago, would have been classed as a super computer under US export restrictions.

In each case I would be using exactly the  same Linux software but only the configuration files would change and certain additional programs and modules would be loaded specific to the application(s). I would end up with three entirely different machines and, for example, the media server would be a very poor desktop machine. Select the right tool for the job, this means that you won't find one PC that will do every job that you need.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: SeanB on March 27, 2016, 05:09:06 pm
Funny thing is that at work I use Win7, and Office. However I use VLC player (and barely use it, there is a whole lot more in it than the minute part I use as a general purpose media player that literally can play almost any format I have met aside from a few bespoke formats that have their own bespoke player) and Libre office as often as I can. Supporting PC I use linux live cd's as that gives a whole lot of tools that are not as convenient on windows, or which do not exist. Strangely the live CD often runs faster on the same hardware as well.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 27, 2016, 05:12:16 pm
The strangest thing to me is the fact that for a large number of PC users (probably the majority) all the machine is used for is very basic stuff - Internet, music, movies, and basic document editing. These are things that Linux does pretty well, yet these people continue to put up with Microsoft's crap.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 27, 2016, 05:27:12 pm
The strangest thing to me is the fact that for a large number of PC users (probably the majority) all the machine is used for is very basic stuff - Internet, music, movies, and basic document editing. These are things that Linux does pretty well, yet these people continue to put up with Microsoft's crap.

Absolutely.  Linux also does well on photo and movie editing.  It is the specialist stuff that is not so well supported.  People who write software for niche markets have to aim at the largest user base or go out of business.  That largest user base is not Linux.  Linux is not even in third unless you argue that the Apple and Android stuff is a Linux variant. 

Linux has a big battle to catch up.  It is not fundamentally difficult to use, but there is a significant learning curve in moving from one system to another.  Even Apple which brags how easy it is, can be difficult for people trained on other systems.  It is frustrating to try something that is easy in a system you are proficient in and spend minutes or hours searching for how to do that simple task.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 27, 2016, 07:49:34 pm
I agree with you about the attitude on the part of Linux advocates.  But you are doing the same thing.  There are many things that Linux in one or the other of its variants does very well.  And many things that neither system is superior on, just different.

I really don't understand how I can be any clearer. I do not want Linux to be Windows. I have never said that and never will. I said that I want to be able to do the same work, same productivity, as I can with Windows. Yes, Linux distros of one sort or another will some of the things that I can do with Windows. Not one distro I have tried, nor has been recommended, does everything in one installation like my one installation of Windows. I just want a Linux distro that can do all the work that Windows can do.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 27, 2016, 08:00:21 pm
I am not asking for an OS to do everything possible to conceive. I am asking Linux to do only what I can already do with Windows. Nothing more.
That's the problem, your entire software base is designed around what's compatible on Windows.  You're not asking Linux to be a good desktop, you're asking Linux to do exactly what you have found to work correctly for you in Windows.  Linux is not Windows.  It does not do the same things, and it does not do them in the same way.  It has different incompatibilities and different hardware/software support.  Had you started with Linux, built up a suite of software you found to work well together and do the job to your level of satisfaction, and then tried to move, verbatim, to Windows, you would have the exact same problem.

Why does everyone assume that a Windows user only wants a Windows copy. I want to do the same work as I can do in Windows. I didn't say I wanted to have the same way of working, nor the same software, nor the same user experience, nor anything else that is the "Windows way" of doing things. I SAID, I want to do what I can do with Windows.  |O

This is the zombie chant of Linux users, "You are only thinking the Windows way and it is your fault that Linux doesn't work for you." I used Linux in a couple of distros for a year, compiling kernels, compiling programs, searching and learning. It failed.

Again, I put my money where my mouth is. I will pay $2000usd to anyone for finding one distro, one distro and one installation, that allows me to get the same work done as I can in my one installation of Windows, and no virtual machines to run Windows programs.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 27, 2016, 09:15:14 pm
As I have said before I am a Windows guy.  I have played with Linux off and on since kernal 0.98 but don't use it daily, or even weekly.

I have found the Mandrake/Mandriva/whatever it is now core, and Ubuntu easy to set up and use for email, word processing, spreadsheets, powerpoint, photoediting and management, listening to music, web browsing, file browsing, CD and DVD listening/watching/burning and to some extent-database management.

Other distros can generally do all of these things too, I just haven't spent much time with them.

Things they all seem to be able to do, but which always require a bit of fiddling is accessing Apple or Microsoft centric networks, network printers and so on.  The Linux droids will pop in here and say how easy it is, but for those of us who don't live this software I stand by my observations.

I general I have found Linux better for supporting older printers, scanners and many other hardware peripherals.  Assuming that it is a product that was widely commercially successful, or was the pet rock of some Linux nerd at one time.  Windows and the manufacturers tend to drop support for older products like hot rocks.

I am not trying for $2000 so I haven't gone back and checked your needs list.  If it stopped above this line you just haven't tried Linux very hard.  But I suspect that like me your list has things below this line.

Where all distros fail is in the applications I need and use.  KiCAD and GnuCAD and the like can be used, but are not nearly as good as the fourth or fifth best Windows application.  There are several other packages I use that have the same problems.  I don't use it but assume the same is true for mechanical design software. 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Tinkerer on March 27, 2016, 09:19:33 pm

Again, I put my money where my mouth is. I will pay $2000usd to anyone for finding one distro, one distro and one installation, that allows me to get the same work done as I can in my one installation of Windows, and no virtual machines to run Windows programs.
Yes, this here. I have yet to try it myself even though I know I will eventually. However I do know that quite a few programs that run on windows wont work on linux or they dont work as well. Tis the only reason I havent already moved to linux. I know I would have trouble running the same things there as on win.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: zal42 on March 28, 2016, 02:11:18 am
There are many things that Linux in one or the other of its variants does very well.  And many things that neither system is superior on, just different.

Fanboyism is annoying no matter what it's about. I think Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie said it best: Every OS sucks.

They suck differently, but they all suck. So the thing to do, as with any tool (which is all an OS is), is to pick the one that sucks the least for the job at hand.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AF6LJ on March 28, 2016, 09:35:17 pm
There are many things that Linux in one or the other of its variants does very well.  And many things that neither system is superior on, just different.

Fanboyism is annoying no matter what it's about. I think Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie said it best: Every OS sucks.

They suck differently, but they all suck. So the thing to do, as with any tool (which is all an OS is), is to pick the one that sucks the least for the job at hand.
All I can say is.........
 :-+ :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on March 28, 2016, 10:59:10 pm

Fanboyism is annoying no matter what it's about. I think Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie said it best: Every OS sucks.

They suck differently, but they all suck. So the thing to do, as with any tool (which is all an OS is), is to pick the one that sucks the least for the job at hand.

???

You are on an electronics forum. I hope it is OK to be enthusiastic about technology here. There are fans here of multimeters, soldering irons, spectrum analysers, synthesisers, power supplies, RF, LTZ1000 voltage references.... and computers. If you are going to start bagging "fanboys" here, you have a lot of work ahead of you.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 28, 2016, 11:24:39 pm
Fanboyism is a broken part of human psyche which I'm almost certainly sure manifests itself in the same part of the brain as religion.

Everything is shit and we exist for a short period of time so I'd rather I put that time to good use by deriving what value I can with that shit and employ some pragmatism.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: zal42 on March 28, 2016, 11:43:13 pm
You are on an electronics forum. I hope it is OK to be enthusiastic about technology here. There are fans here of multimeters, soldering irons, spectrum analysers, synthesisers, power supplies, RF, LTZ1000 voltage references.... and computers. If you are going to start bagging "fanboys" here, you have a lot of work ahead of you.

Few people are more enthusiastic about tech than I am! I'm a big fan.  :o

But that's a lot different from "fanboyism". I'm talking about people who view product selection as some kind of objective, almost moral choice and then treat others who select differently as if they were idiots or evil or something.

I'm not seeing a lot of that sort of thing here, and if I did then I'd be far more inclined to ignore it than rag on anybody about it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on March 28, 2016, 11:44:09 pm
Fanboyism is a broken part of human psyche which I'm almost certainly sure manifests itself in the same part of the brain as religion.
I don't think any of the people who like a particular OS here have any kind of religious attachment. As far as I can make out, probably all the Linux users here are also Windows or Mac users. They compare the pros and cons and decide to go with one OS. In this thread, a lot of people are just saying what decision they have made and why.  Most the people here are making rational decisions based on the facts of the matter. People don't use Linux because of of some ethereal reason - it is because it works. In some ways better then Windows, and in some ways worse, but it works.

What I don't get is if a thread discussing the merits of OS's now that Windows has changed direction irks you so much, why are you reading the thread?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on March 29, 2016, 07:38:09 am
I see no reason to move to Linux unless you qualify at least one of these:
a. You started using computer with *nix.
b. You really can do whatever on Linux, and can bear its millions of bugs in GUI.
c. You have to use Linux, and always have a Windows VM or a second Windows computer.
d. You are building a server and you know exactly how to configure Linux to do what you like.
e. You are looking for some learning materials of modern *nix OS.

Edit: typo.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 29, 2016, 08:01:17 am
I wouldn't describe myself as a "Windows user" or a "Linux user".

I'm a Firefox user, a Libreoffice user, an OrCAD PCB Designer user, and a Quartus user, amongst others.

I don't "use", or care at all, about the underlying OS provided that it allows me to use the applications I actually require in order to do my job.

Assuming for a microsecond that changing PCB CAD package were an option, are there actually any professional grade PCB CAD packages available on Linux? Or is the whole idea of switching from Windows to Linux totally dead in the water for that reason alone?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 29, 2016, 08:51:01 am
I wouldn't describe myself as a "Windows user" or a "Linux user".

I'm a Firefox user, a Libreoffice user, an OrCAD PCB Designer user, and a Quartus user, amongst others.

...snip...

are there actually any professional grade PCB CAD packages available on Linux?

Allegro is :-\ Some parts of OrCad are but unfortunately not Capture yet, but it's meant to work well in Wine. Apparently from some point in 2017 all new releases from Cadence will support Linux (moving focus from RHEL and Suse to LTS Ubuntu too) but I wouldn't hold my breath. And if they do keep up to that it wouldn't surprise me if OrCad receives no update.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 29, 2016, 02:02:04 pm
Changing the programs you use is painful, as is changing operating systems.  Everyone tries to maximize the usability of their tools.  To my knowledge the engineering tools currently available under Linux are not as good as what is available under Windows.  That is even after you get over the learning curve of changing tools.  The problem is that Microsoft is ratcheting up the pain of using that side.  I keep getting closer to the tipping point.  They already pushed me over the tipping point on Office products.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Turbon on March 29, 2016, 03:33:58 pm
Windows is for social beeings that can't take a decision on standing foot. The issues has to be mangled through many likings and talked about at every level of our common area of intelligence. It does add to the democratic world we are striving for but sorry to say it need moderators or it will add to the dark side of the force ;). I would rather see that democratic values are taught in good schools (efforts and money needed) that are giving the same oppurtunities where ever taught in the world. We are not there yet but when help is called for from the broken countries - we must listen to those calls. Windows might be the answer if the moderation possibilities is built in. The moderators should be the UN. Linux can never rise to this level of changing peoples perception of building a better world as everyone is free to build in whatever malices they wish - sure the majority will be found very fast but some malice will find its way - freedom is dual edged and 50/50 is too uncertain for me. Freedom is not about planning evil deeds, freedom is about not have to worry about evil deeds and live ones life as one decides to responsibly.

Regards / Turbon
 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: miguelvp on March 29, 2016, 06:02:12 pm
The UN is going to be very busy if all OSs need to comply to their rules, because you can't expect only one OS to be targeted to such moderation.

What is next? all software should be moderated by the UN as well?

No one is stopping the Linux community from stepping up and make it better but then again it's development by committee so your milage may vary. Let the UN be involved or any government based organization and nothing will progress.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on March 29, 2016, 06:34:29 pm
... are there actually any professional grade PCB CAD packages available on Linux?

Yes there is and I guess you already know that but obviously you don't like the answer...

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on March 29, 2016, 06:45:21 pm
No one is stopping the Linux community from stepping up and make it better ...

Why should they? Isn't Linux good enough? It's already the most used OS.
Regarding the desktop, if enough people switch, the applications will follow.
Instead, if most people wait till their application has been ported to Linux, they can wait forever.
Typical chicken/egg problem. So, if you want to make it happen, it's up to you. Don't wait for others to do it for you.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 29, 2016, 07:48:29 pm
Why should they? Isn't Linux good enough? It's already the most used OS.
OK, so you claim.

Regarding the desktop, if enough people switch, the applications will follow.
Instead, if most people wait till their application has been ported to Linux, they can wait forever.
Typical chicken/egg problem. So, if you want to make it happen, it's up to you. Don't wait for others to do it for you.
Huh? So it is the most used OS according to you, but programs aren't getting ported because there aren't enough users?  :palm:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 29, 2016, 08:11:43 pm
I just bought a slide rule on eBay. It doesn't have an operating system. Less to argue incoherently about....
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 29, 2016, 08:14:50 pm
Just so you know, I have 53 slide rules. If you think there aren't slide rule brand fan boys......  :-DD

No argument here. Just give me a Linux distro that does the same work in one installation that I can accomplish in Windows, and $2000usd is yours.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 29, 2016, 08:22:10 pm
In the desk top OS world, Linux is almost non-existent. There are more people using Vista. In the server world I think Linux dominates.

It's interesting that even though Microsoft tries to spin Windows 10 as doing well and gives it away for "free", there are still more people using Windows 8/8.1 than Windows 10.

Of course, that's all based on Gartner estimates, and who knows how accurate those are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 29, 2016, 09:43:45 pm
Yes. I classify myself as a Linux guy and I still use windows (10) on the desktop because to be honest it's not a gigantic turdzilla like all the other offerings.

I'm an RHCE and a MSDN enterprise sub. That one melts people's brains. Still the best way to win is sit on the fence and empty the wallets of both sides.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: miguelvp on March 29, 2016, 09:56:09 pm
I just bought a slide rule on eBay. It doesn't have an operating system. Less to argue incoherently about....
I remember not being allowed to use a slide ruler my dad gave me and I brought it to school. I get that I needed to memorize my multiplication tables and I already knew them but I was just trying to show how cool this thing was that could do logs (I was extremely young but don't recall exactly how old, under 8 or so). Of course there were not pocket calculators back then.

Anyway, the institution didn't allow me to use my non operating system based computing device  :P
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on March 29, 2016, 09:59:00 pm
Why should they? Isn't Linux good enough? It's already the most used OS.
OK, so you claim.

Regarding the desktop, if enough people switch, the applications will follow.
Instead, if most people wait till their application has been ported to Linux, they can wait forever.
Typical chicken/egg problem. So, if you want to make it happen, it's up to you. Don't wait for others to do it for you.
Huh? So it is the most used OS according to you, but programs aren't getting ported because there aren't enough users?  :palm:

There is a difference between an OS and a desktop OS. Regarding marketshare, Linux is king, just not on the desktop.

If you feell that Linux (on the desktop) is missing important applications, the only way to change that, is to abandon
applications that don't support Linux. As long as people are not willing to do that, nothing is going to change (on the desktop).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 29, 2016, 10:02:13 pm
I expect nothing less of educational establishments. Now they kick out TI84 operators...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 12:20:11 am
If you feell that Linux (on the desktop) is missing important applications, the only way to change that, is to abandon
applications that don't support Linux. As long as people are not willing to do that, nothing is going to change (on the desktop).

It is not a matter of dumping applications, it is abandoning being able to do certain tasks. I have no ties to any specific software. I use what does the work. It is not possible to do the work in Linux that you can do in Windows, regardless of what software is available. Every Linux "guru", or fan, or nut, has always told me the same thing. I am an idiot, or a Windows noob, or close minded, because I want to do a certain job with my computer that Linux doesn't have the way to do it. There is a reason this emoticon is available on most forums.... |O
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 30, 2016, 01:12:13 am
I have no ties to any specific software. I use what does the work. It is not possible to do the work in Linux that you can do in Windows, regardless of what software is available.

For you not for others. You have unspecified problems you refuse to elaborate on more  than "people called me stupid" and contrary to what you've said above that certain apps aren't on Linux and you don't want to learn new ones. I know genuinely stupid people who have much less problems with a Linux distro than a Windows install and bloody geniuses who have to swallow their pride and ask how to do something simple, and they've never had the problems getting help from the community that you have. Ever thought that the attitude problem might not be those communities but yours?

But meh I can't be bothered going through this whole thread but I'll do the best I can from memory. You want distro suggestions, LTS Ubuntu, CentOS, or OpenSuse. You may have tried them years ago but how much has Windows or OSX changed in that time? Free video editor try this http://cinelerra.org/2015/index.php (http://cinelerra.org/2015/index.php) . Free EDA there's KiCad. Free photo editor there's Gimp. CAD package, meh I love OpenSCAD but admittedly not for everyone. Missing anything? Stop being a massive cock and say what or just admit you don't actually want it.

I will happily help anyone who's prepared to be helped. If in the long run we can get everything sorted keep your money. They'll still be some niggles, like there is with the software you paid much more than your "bounty" for, but if they're that bad take that $2000 and donate it to the project in question or donate a weeks worth of hours fixing it yourself. Or seeing that 40 hours is probably worth much more than 2 grand to you how many hours it's worth.




Afterthought, maybe some sort of crowdfunding "feature bounty" site for FOSS could be a good idea. Somebody can propose an improvement, say making Cinelerra portable, others who want it can back the idea and pledge say a maximum £5 per person*. It isn't collected until the feature is not just in the source control repos but in releases. Or only a portion is as a forward by backers who specifically state they trust the person or group offering to do the work and they can have blah % of their backing upfront? Just a thought as many computer users in general are not prepared to pay for a single piece of software but will happily make donations or back dodgy Kickstarter campaigns.


*Maybe also allow organisations to pledge as much as they want?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on March 30, 2016, 01:14:44 am
Lightages, every Linux supporter fully understands what you are saying. You can do real electronics design work in Linux, but there are some tools that only run in Windows. If you have to use those tools, you have to use Windows - no argument. A lot of Apple MAC users have to use Windows as well for the same reason.

Microsoft do realise that there are a lot of people so "hooked" into the Windows environment, that no matter what Microsoft do to Windows, those people will have to just accept it.

But anyone can make a decision not to be hooked totally to Windows. Just like people can decide to stop drinking alcohol or stop taking drugs. For some of us, the time for a change is now. We can still use Windows for that 5GByte development package, but for browsing, office documents, KiCad PCB design, LTSpice4 (running on Wine), Krita, etc we can use Linux. We will get the advantages of all the things you can do in Linux that you cannot do in Windows.

For others, choosing to accept Microsoft's direction and live with it is another choice. You will get all the gee-whiz goodies that will get thrown in along the way and that might be fun. There are a lot of very smart people choosing to just go along with the Microsoft ride.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on March 30, 2016, 02:56:47 am
A PSA for the "bounty hunters"  O0
I use my computer to make videos, images, music, documents, websites, programming, work with email, web browsing, watch movies, gaming, etc.

Products used: Adobe CC, Sony Vegas Pro, both with purchased plugins, Steam and all the games I have with it, KiCad, Autodesk Inventor, Reaper, and a bunch of other things. I also calibrate my monitors with a Spyder 3, use a Wacom tablet, Logitech wireless joystick, Brother DCM1512 multifunction printer, an HP Laserjet CP1025nw color printer, SDR radio devices, and a bunch of other generic USB devices.

I use both OSes and understand both sides of the argument: Microsoft keeps undermining the chances of users like us having a very stable and somewhat private workstation, thus at a certain point this will become more critical than the time to invest in re-learning new applications - especially given that most professional packages are Windows only.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 05:16:18 am
Stop being a massive cock and say what or just admit you don't actually want it.

 :-//
You have no time to read what I have said and then accuse me of not specifying what my problems are, and then call me a massive cock? Sorry I don't have time to repeat myself every time someone decides that they are too important to read something already written. I made a statement, offer money to back up my statement, and then get personal attacks. What happened to answering the assertion instead of the person? It certainly seems that rsjsouza was able to find what I said I do with my computer, without any problems.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 30, 2016, 01:33:14 pm

I use my computer to make videos, images, music, documents, websites, programming, work with email, web browsing, watch movies, gaming, etc.

Products used: Adobe CC, Sony Vegas Pro, both with purchased plugins, Steam and all the games I have with it, KiCad, Autodesk Inventor, Reaper, and a bunch of other things. I also calibrate my monitors with a Spyder 3, use a Wacom tablet, Logitech wireless joystick, Brother DCM1512 multifunction printer, an HP Laserjet CP1025nw color printer, SDR radio devices, and a bunch of other generic USB devices.

If anyone can point me to one single Linux distro and all the software that will do everything to that I can do with the above software, there is a finder's fee of a considerable amount. I am betting nobody will be able to collect. If I have no choice in the future but to move to Win10, I will go to Linux and deal with multiboot and the whole BS of trying to make everything  work.

As it is now, the Win10 issue is avoidable, but with some effort. it is a trojan horse, virus,and rootkit all in one. So are the special updates for Win7 that are constantly being pushed as updates that you don't need. Microsoft is acting like hackers trying to botnet your computer and steal your personal data, passwords, and allow illegal search by the government.

Found it. page 7.

It's going to be hard to find a distro that runs a "bunch of other things" and unspecified games so no point really grandstanding about it.
Any serious contract requires a serious specification, you haven't provided that.

That said, I can see why you run windows if that's the software you want to use.



Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 03:39:46 pm
It's going to be hard to find a distro that runs a "bunch of other things" and unspecified games so no point really grandstanding about it.
Any serious contract requires a serious specification, you haven't provided that.

That said, I can see why you run windows if that's the software you want to use.

I did say in another post that if anyone was serious about taking me up on my offer that I would supply a full specification of my hardware and software. The software I use is to accomplish tasks. I am not married to any software. The list of software is to illustrate the kind of work I need to accomplish with whatever software is available. I will use whatever software is available for Linux to do the same work and have the same end product.

If it appears that I am grandstanding, it is because I always get the same attitude and assumptions from those who criticize me.

I never said that I want Linux to work like Windows. I never said that I want to use exact equivalents nor the same software I am using now. I have said many times that I tried to make Linux work for my needs for a year without success because the programs I needed to use broke each other's dependencies.  I compiled my own kernels and programs to try and fix the problem. I tried different distros to try to fix the problem.

When I asked people on Linux forums for help in making something work that wasn't in the native repository of the distro I was using, I was told to stop being stupid and multi-boot to different distros to do the work I was doing. I would be told on one hand that I could make Linux do any work I could do in Windows, and then was told I was stupid for trying to use Linux on latest hardware and for trying to use one piece of software when it wasn't in the native repository. I would be told I was expecting too much from Linux.

I would be told I was using the wrong distro and that I really should try X or Y or Z distro and it would fix all my problems. I was told that needing 32bit color depth in my photo and video editing was not possible and I would have to live without it. When I wanted to do monitor calibration on a multiple monitor setup, I was told it was not possible.

I will be supplying a full list of all my software work requirements and my hardware and will attach it to a post soon. Maybe this will make some difference in the types of responses I get.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Syntax_Error on March 30, 2016, 03:44:37 pm
I hope the discussion moves on from the round and round "I hate Linux, nobody can say otherwise" soon, as the last two pages have been quite boring. As a casual reader of this thread, I had higher hopes than this...

We get it, some people cannot be productive on Linux, due to lack of acceptable software, hardware support problems, or other issues. It's also apparent that some people take issue with how Microsoft operates and treats customers/the market. Can we stop repeating the same things over and over and say something new?

Next in line...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 30, 2016, 03:45:22 pm
So... BeOS ;)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 03:50:49 pm
I have being using the software/script from here for a while now.
https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat
The author is to be commended for his work to help kill the problems with forced updates on Win7 and other versions. It is continuously updated and improved and I have had no occurrences of W10 updates showing up, nor the W10 style spying back doors that MS is trying to force everyone to take. I highly recommend his script.

So far I don't know anyone has seen any software that requires the use of W10. If in the future companies like Adobe start forcing W10 to use their software I will move to a different OS altogether. Linux here I come? :-\
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 04:04:15 pm
Can we stop repeating the same things over and over and say something new?

Sounds good to me. Let's start by trying to come up with alternatives to having to put up with MS forcing its way on everyone.

I am investigating the best way to approach Linux again. So far I am considering Linux Mint or Arch. Mint because it is well supported, has a huge repository, and is relatively easy to set up and use. Arch because it is always up to date if you want and probably won't need total re-installation when its base is abandoned for a newer version like with Mint.

The difficulties with switching to Linux for most people will be the lack of support for certain games, some hardware, and maybe too many choices. The problems for me will be meeting all my rather specific work needs. I suppose that a VM or two will help some or most of my problems.

The only other real alternative IMHO is to go Mac. I am not sure that this is much better than staying with MS but it is a stable and well supported OS for those who want to do the same kind of varied work as I do. The problem with switching to Mac is the added cost of switching hardware. That I am not likely to do and most others probably not too unless it is time to do a hardware refresh anyway.

I will start listing software that I find for Linux that probably can be a full substitute for what I use in Windows. My problem, I am rather picky and stubborn about what I want/need.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Syntax_Error on March 30, 2016, 05:02:43 pm
I technically use both Linux and Windows 10, although I rarely use Windows 10. I have it so I can use software that will not run in WINE or runs badly in WINE. It is a necessary evil for me, but one I am willing to put up with for the present meantime. *There is no* single OS solution if you are dependent upon either MS products directly, or the MS Windows ecosystem for software you want to run. I am in this situation, too, along with millions of others.

I happen to love using Linux Mint for general computing, and when I get new software, I try to see if I can get software that runs on Mint or can be made easily to run on Mint. If not, then I just get and use the Windows version and don't cry about it. Is it ideal for me? Absolutely not; I'd rather use only Linux, but that isn't the state of affairs yet, so I use both.

The FOSS types will not accept this as a viable solution, but for practicality, it won't be long before every application (or suite) you want to run will be offered as a cloud service. On several levels, I dislike the trend and the idea, but it is going to happen. Again, dropping the ideology and remaining practical, my preference would be to use native Linux software resident on my machine, but I'd still prefer not to run Windows at all. So, if I *have* to use Windows ecosystem software, I would consider cloud based software on a case by case basis.

One issue with GNU/Linux is the rabid fervor against proprietary software. It has its merits and its problems. I have no dog in this race, so I use what's best for me: sometimes it's FOSS, sometimes it's proprietary, sometimes it's a mix. If you choose not to partake in the rallying for FOSS, Linux is quite nice and quiet.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 30, 2016, 05:07:18 pm
What would be a good cheap way to switch the output from a cable modem? I've found some RJ-45 switches for under $20, do these work well?

The idea would be to have the local network connected most of the time, but be able to temporarily switch the connection over to a Windows 10 (games only) computer when necessary, while keeping the spy box isolated from the local network. Plugging and unplugging cables is obviously one solution, just not very convenient.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on March 30, 2016, 05:59:27 pm
What would be a good cheap way to switch the output from a cable modem? I've found some RJ-45 switches for under $20, do these work well?

The idea would be to have the local network connected most of the time, but be able to temporarily switch the connection over to a Windows 10 (games only) computer when necessary, while keeping the spy box isolated from the local network. Plugging and unplugging cables is obviously one solution, just not very convenient.

You could use some inexpensive router supported by OpenWrt, separate one ethernet port for the Win10 PC (second LAN) and add firewall rules which allow the Win10 PC to access the internet but not the normal LAN. It's like a guest WLAN.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 06:14:22 pm
A problem with trying to block W10 from secretly accessing their spyware servers is that the kernel itself has some kind of back door running. MS admitted this. You can block certain traffic using firewall settings in a router but this is no guarantee that the kernel isn't tunneling through on some other connection that you need to let through.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 30, 2016, 06:50:07 pm
I would want complete physical separation from the local network for the Windows 10 game machine. It would be used for absolutely nothing but games. I suppose Steam would live there too. Both of them can sniff around and report back whatever they want because that's all that will be there.



edit: This is what I'm looking at:

             http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=1373 (http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=1373)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 30, 2016, 07:25:20 pm
Stop being a massive cock and say what or just admit you don't actually want it.

 :-//
You have no time to read what I have said and then accuse me of not specifying what my problems are, and then call me a massive cock? Sorry I don't have time to repeat myself every time someone decides that they are too important to read something already written. I made a statement, offer money to back up my statement, and then get personal attacks.

That was related to the specific matter of the problems you've had with distros and getting help but refuse to give any details about. It comes across like you think your too important to answer questions you don't like and/or don't fit into your narrative.

Quote
What happened to answering the assertion instead of the person?

I honestly think the "I'm too important do my bidding NOW" attitude may have been a problem, as mentioned in my post which you've ignored all but one bit of. It wasn't an insult but a comment on conduct. Really being called a massive cock when you're being a massive cock is an insult to you? I expect and accept it when I am. I am being one right now because of getting sick of being called an elitist snob when I've repeatedly said "the best OS is the one that works for you."

Quote
It certainly seems that rsjsouza was able to find what I said I do with my computer, without any problems.

That post contradicted the statement that you aren't tied to certain software just getting the work done so I thought you were just moving goalposts and using "I won't tell you what I want because I've already said it" to try and hide that. And sorry but you do come across very... confrontational just for the sake of it.

EDIT: All of that aside the offer to help you find a distro you like and get the sort of software you want working on it is still there. Still aren't interested in your cash and I'll even stop being an elitist nobby arsehole ;)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 07:52:10 pm
OK Mechanical Menace, let's say I have been a massive cock and I have been less than useful in helping myself. Maybe this is so. I am not going to argue a point of perception as I might have been at fault with my way of bitching.

Let's move on and try to help those who don't want the raping that MS seems to want and maybe we can cooperate on showing alternatives and solutions. I have already started on a different path in this thread. I am looking at Linux again and would appreciate help in getting things up and running. I am considering Mint, Arch, and maybe even using unRAID to get some solutions that aren't possible with just one OS. It would be great to have the option to use different OSes at the same time with no performance penalties, or at least not big penalties.

IMHO, I think it is obvious that we can't continue with MS and feel like we have control over our computers, files, and privacy.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Syntax_Error on March 30, 2016, 08:54:21 pm
I use Windows' own firewall rules to block various ports, services, and IP addresses, and disable various services through the management console. It works quite well, actually. I employ a hardware firewall, also with port and IP filtering for inbound and outbound connections. I started by blacklisting the list of IPs associated with MS found on internet lists, then set up my windows 10 PC on it's own connection and logged all traffic activity through the firewall. Then I block every port (outbound and inbound), as I am not using the PC, so all traffic is unrelated to me. It's actually not hard to do, and so far, every time I add a port, IP, or service to the Windows built-in firewall, my router stops recording attempted access from them, so it seems to be working, even from within Windows.

In fact, I have easily disabled updates this way, simply by deactivating the update service. Sometimes I have even forgot that I did that, and wondered why I was never getting any updates. Reenabled the service, and voila, updates.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 30, 2016, 09:29:52 pm
Please remember that MS has admitted that you can't disable or stop all of the W10 spyware. You might think you have killed everything, but they still have a back door in the kernel that nobody can control or stop.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Syntax_Error on March 30, 2016, 09:38:46 pm
True. I get what you are saying. That's not what I am claiming to be stopping. In fact, what you mention is a primary reason I do not do my general computing on Windows.

What I specified gets rid of mass-surveillance style phoning home. It does not protect you from targeted surveillance, or also zero-day backdoor mass surveillance as yet unrevealed. It is only for current mass surveillance. And for that, it works very well, surprisingly well in fact. Windows surveillance is also why I recommend encrypting your /home folder if you dual boot Linux/Windows 10, as there is no guarantee that Windows cannot/will not read your Linux partition filesystems.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 30, 2016, 09:50:57 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/5VZb83N.jpg)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: _Andrew_ on March 30, 2016, 09:51:55 pm
What would be a good cheap way to switch the output from a cable modem? I've found some RJ-45 switches for under $20, do these work well?

The idea would be to have the local network connected most of the time, but be able to temporarily switch the connection over to a Windows 10 (games only) computer when necessary, while keeping the spy box isolated from the local network. Plugging and unplugging cables is obviously one solution, just not very convenient.

MikroTik produce a range of affordable routers running there RouterOS which provides a massive range of functionality. Just be prepared to spend a bit of time setting things up. There are plenty of guides on line and on YouTube that go thorough these steps.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nidlaX on March 30, 2016, 09:52:11 pm

I use my computer to make videos, images, music, documents, websites, programming, work with email, web browsing, watch movies, gaming, etc.

Products used: Adobe CC, Sony Vegas Pro, both with purchased plugins, Steam and all the games I have with it, KiCad, Autodesk Inventor, Reaper, and a bunch of other things. I also calibrate my monitors with a Spyder 3, use a Wacom tablet, Logitech wireless joystick, Brother DCM1512 multifunction printer, an HP Laserjet CP1025nw color printer, SDR radio devices, and a bunch of other generic USB devices.
I think it's true that you can't play certain games natively on Linux, and there is simply no solution to that matter. For everything else you've mentioned that's work or productivity related, I don't think there is necessarily some task that is simply *not possible* to accomplish. Rather, I think you mean that it is difficult or not possible to achieve the same workflow using Linux applications that you could have with Windows applications.

But I would be interested to hear a specific example of such an impossibility if you have one in mind.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 31, 2016, 12:57:47 am
The gap between Windows and Linux is getting a little narrower (at least for Win10 users):

Microsoft will release a native BASH shell to Windows 10:
Quote
Note that this isn’t a cross-compiled or a virtual machine. Instead, it’s a proper and native Bash on Windows 10. This has been made possible with a new Microsoft-Canonical partnership that has allowed Redmond to include new native Ubuntu libraries in the OS.

Sources:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/ubuntus-bash-and-linux-command-line-coming-to-windows-10/ (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/ubuntus-bash-and-linux-command-line-coming-to-windows-10/)
http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/30/be-very-afraid-hell-has-frozen-over-bash-is-coming-to-windows-10/ (http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/30/be-very-afraid-hell-has-frozen-over-bash-is-coming-to-windows-10/)
http://fossbytes.com/linux-command-line-bash-shell-comes-windows-10/ (http://fossbytes.com/linux-command-line-bash-shell-comes-windows-10/)

This is pretty good news, because I, for one, am pretty lame using PowerShell, but I am quite proficient using Bash. CMD is also quite limited when it comes to scripting, although it has been pretty useful in the past (up to Windows 98).

It is obvious this won't change much of the discussion that has been going on here, specially that that involves running specialized and advanced software on Linux and that is currently only available on Windows, but it is a clear statement that MS is paying attention to the market. It is also notorious that MS is the one taking responsibility to make its OS more compatible, and not the other way around. This is one of the huge advantages of having a centralized development company (Microsoft) with lots of money for R&D.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on March 31, 2016, 01:21:40 am
It will be interesting to see how this Windows 10/ Linux project works.

Microsoft and Ubuntu should be forced to make all their native Ubuntu libraries completely open source, and so in theory there is no reason why any other distro couldn't be made to work in Windows 10. Any other distro should be free to use the open source Ubuntu / Windows compatibility code.

Unless Microsoft couple this with some extra non-open licensing dll's that prevent anything but their own Ubuntu dll's from working. In effect, this would be Microsoft benefiting from the open source Linux, but still managing to turn it into a non-open system.

Also does this mean that Microsoft will be trying to by Ubuntu? That would be really scary.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: edy on March 31, 2016, 01:56:40 am
For those of you wanting to stop Windows 10 from loading on your machines, Steve Gibson from GRC just announced this utility:

https://www.grc.com/never10.htm (https://www.grc.com/never10.htm)

(https://www.grc.com/never10/Snapshot1.png)

I was previously using GWX Control Panel by Josh Mayfield available here: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)

Apparently, Steve's solution is better... Here is an article comparing the two:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/3049165/microsoft-windows/steve-gibsons-never10-vs-josh-mayfields-gwx-control-panel.html (http://www.infoworld.com/article/3049165/microsoft-windows/steve-gibsons-never10-vs-josh-mayfields-gwx-control-panel.html)


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on March 31, 2016, 05:31:54 am
I am looking at Linux again and would appreciate help in getting things up and running. I am considering Mint, Arch, and maybe even using unRAID to get some solutions that aren't possible with just one OS. It would be great to have the option to use different OSes at the same time with no performance penalties, or at least not big penalties.

I would honestly think twice about Arch as your main distro. It's not bad at all but it is pretty much today's Gentoo with less reliance on source only distribution, the Linux nerds distro for Linux nerds. You have to have the time and patience to be more bothered about playing with your computer than actually use it and I think like me you do not have the time to use something like that as your main OS. But I would say it's good to have installed as a "play and learn" distro. Their forums are a massive wealth of information that more often than others doesn't just give a cryptic bunch of CLI commands and config changes to copy and paste but an explanation of what they do.

Mint is Ubuntu without the need to install one package to view all your media and without an option to Unity so without the need to uninstall Amazon desktop search integration, and fewer distro releases (advantage for some, disadvantage for others). Arguably prettier (personal preference of course) but the only reason I can really think to use it over one of the non Unity *buntus is you really like the Cinnamon fork of Gnome. You do automatically get a lot of the advantages Ubuntus (relatively) massive userbase brings though, and no matter what some say selective use of PPAs is brilliant but as with many a powerful tool when people use it without thinking it can lead to disaster. How Chrome uses it is a brilliant example of it done right. You go to the website and download the .deb, open the .deb and it gets opened in the package manager and when installed it adds the Chrome PPA to your system and all the updates are handled by your system automatically.

Quote
IMHO, I think it is obvious that we can't continue with MS and feel like we have control over our computers, files, and privacy.

I'm not actually that paranoid about it but my use of Windows is very limited. Basically I have it for some games and when I'm in the mood to binge on those games web browsing (not using MS browsers) and consuming media just so I don't have to reboot just to do that until I'm in "productivity mode" lol. I may be being naive but I doubt that that can give MS much real information about me beyond which embarrassing games I play and already share with the world that I do.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Karel on March 31, 2016, 06:25:07 am
The gap between Windows and Linux is getting a little narrower (at least for Win10 users):

Microsoft will release a native BASH shell to Windows 10:
Quote
Note that this isn’t a cross-compiled or a virtual machine. Instead, it’s a proper and native Bash on Windows 10. This has been made possible with a new Microsoft-Canonical partnership that has allowed Redmond to include new native Ubuntu libraries in the OS.

Sources:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/ubuntus-bash-and-linux-command-line-coming-to-windows-10/ (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/ubuntus-bash-and-linux-command-line-coming-to-windows-10/)
http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/30/be-very-afraid-hell-has-frozen-over-bash-is-coming-to-windows-10/ (http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/30/be-very-afraid-hell-has-frozen-over-bash-is-coming-to-windows-10/)
http://fossbytes.com/linux-command-line-bash-shell-comes-windows-10/ (http://fossbytes.com/linux-command-line-bash-shell-comes-windows-10/)

So, it's true that windows advances slowly and is lightyears behind Linux...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on March 31, 2016, 11:01:41 am
I use Windows' own firewall rules to block various ports, services, and IP addresses, and disable various services through the management console. It works quite well, actually. I employ a hardware firewall, also with port and IP filtering for inbound and outbound connections. I started by blacklisting the list of IPs associated with MS found on internet lists, then set up my windows 10 PC on it's own connection and logged all traffic activity through the firewall. Then I block every port (outbound and inbound), as I am not using the PC, so all traffic is unrelated to me. It's actually not hard to do, and so far, every time I add a port, IP, or service to the Windows built-in firewall, my router stops recording attempted access from them, so it seems to be working, even from within Windows.

A more simple approach is to set up a local DNS resolver, to log the MS sub/domains used and then to add those sub/domains. If Win10 can't resolve the data collection servers it can't send any data. And I doubt that any sane software developer would hardcode an IP address. Maybe someone already has done the domain list.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on March 31, 2016, 11:06:55 am
What I specified gets rid of mass-surveillance style phoning home. It does not protect you from targeted surveillance, or also zero-day backdoor mass surveillance as yet unrevealed. It is only for current mass surveillance. And for that, it works very well, surprisingly well in fact. Windows surveillance is also why I recommend encrypting your /home folder if you dual boot Linux/Windows 10, as there is no guarantee that Windows cannot/will not read your Linux partition filesystems.

That is also helpful in case you get one of those file-encrypting ransomwares. It can't encrypt what it doesn't see.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on March 31, 2016, 11:17:13 am
For those of you wanting to stop Windows 10 from loading on your machines, Steve Gibson from GRC just announced this utility:

Utility? :-DD

Run regedit and add/set:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx]
"DisableGwx"=dword:00000001
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 31, 2016, 01:31:06 pm
I use Windows' own firewall rules to block various ports, services, and IP addresses, and disable various services through the management console. It works quite well, actually. I employ a hardware firewall, also with port and IP filtering for inbound and outbound connections. I started by blacklisting the list of IPs associated with MS found on internet lists, then set up my windows 10 PC on it's own connection and logged all traffic activity through the firewall. Then I block every port (outbound and inbound), as I am not using the PC, so all traffic is unrelated to me. It's actually not hard to do, and so far, every time I add a port, IP, or service to the Windows built-in firewall, my router stops recording attempted access from them, so it seems to be working, even from within Windows.

A more simple approach is to set up a local DNS resolver, to log the MS sub/domains used and then to add those sub/domains. If Win10 can't resolve the data collection servers it can't send any data. And I doubt that any sane software developer would hardcode an IP address. Maybe someone already has done the domain list.

It doesn't use windows DNS to look these up. Needs to be done at the firewall.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on March 31, 2016, 02:36:11 pm
A more simple approach is to set up a local DNS resolver, to log the MS sub/domains used and then to add those sub/domains. If Win10 can't resolve the data collection servers it can't send any data. And I doubt that any sane software developer would hardcode an IP address. Maybe someone already has done the domain list.

It doesn't use windows DNS to look these up. Needs to be done at the firewall.

You can tell Windows to use any namserver you like. If the nameserver is running on another PC or a router doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on March 31, 2016, 05:48:17 pm
It used hard coded nameserver addresses at MSFT for lookups, not your local nameserver. This is for the sake of windows defender continuing to work after a DNS hijack. Unfortunately they built a load of other crap on top of it as well.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on March 31, 2016, 06:03:42 pm
That can be fixed by a single firewall rule or two ;)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on March 31, 2016, 06:28:26 pm
Microsoft controls well over a thousand sites on the internet, most of which are not obviously associated with them. Sneaky bastards they are indeed.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 31, 2016, 06:40:25 pm
Even though a picture of a tinfoil hat has been posted to prove me wrong, remember that MS themselves have said that there are features in the kernel of W10 that cannot be turned off or bypassed. Changing DNS tables or blocking IPs is no guarantee that W10 won't be talking to HQ.

The best tool still IMHO for quick blocking of the spying, in Win7 and 8 at least, is:
https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat (https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat)

and this does more than the Steve Gibson utility.
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)

Again, these are no guarantee that MS won't do something to put spying and telemetry in Win7 or 8 that can't be blocked.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 31, 2016, 07:13:27 pm
One obvious, relatively inexpensive solution I've been considering is to install a hardware firewall between my network and the internet. It's probably not a bad idea in any case, spyware or not.

Does anyone have any experience of a device like, say, this one?

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/18897-zyxel-usg40-eu0101f/ (http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/18897-zyxel-usg40-eu0101f/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Syntax_Error on March 31, 2016, 07:21:39 pm
Aww, come on, even I thought the tinfoil hat picture was funny, and I'm one of the guys wearing one. I don't have cats, though. ;D

I stand by what I said, and as time passes, our paranoia is continuously validated and fed by ever more frequent revelations about surveillance and the complicity of software giants and telecoms. It's the world we live in, and will continue to do so. So, I live my life and sometimes I like to shut doors that have been illuminated.

As for the firewall, it's a fantastic idea. I have been considering adding another box outside the WAN link configured with pfSense as a silent firewall, i.e. it has no IP address and is not reachable through it's network port, hence it does not communicate it's existence to anyone. Mostly just because I like to play with toys like this.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on March 31, 2016, 07:33:29 pm
I can highly recommend pfSense on a small fanless computer. I am managing a medium sized network that has its connection to the internet. It is very stable and easy to run and configure without having to go Cisco university. It is also very flexible.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on March 31, 2016, 08:06:34 pm
As for the firewall, it's a fantastic idea. I have been considering adding another box outside the WAN link configured with pfSense as a silent firewall, i.e. it has no IP address and is not reachable through it's network port, hence it does not communicate it's existence to anyone. Mostly just because I like to play with toys like this.

That's called "transparent firewall". pfSense is one of the very few OSS firewalls supporting transparent mode.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on April 01, 2016, 02:56:39 am
Mechanical Menace:

The reason I was looking at Arch is that I have had previous experience with Linux and there is the Architect Arch installer which helps getting it up and running. It is more difficult to install, but it can be kept up to date all the time and appears to not need a full re-install whereas other distros require a full re-install when the base version is changed. I rather like that idea.

Mint is coming up to a version change and so I don't want to go through re-install pains when it is time to update. Maybe I am putting too much into this. The biggest benefit I see with Mint is the big repository and ready to go installation.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Syntax_Error on April 01, 2016, 03:14:11 am
Try both, and others! If you don't want to, or don't want to all at the same time, then don't. That's fine, too. They're all free (of cost), and most have polished products certainly worth a try. I've no experience with Arch myself, and am aware of it's reputation, but I say if it interests you and you aren't daunted by the reputation, then give it a spin. Same for mint. Why not?

As for the upcoming Mint 18, keep in mind that you don't have to upgrade right away, or at all if you aren't ready. I'm excited about Mint 18 and can't wait for it to drop, but I won't be upgrading to it right away. I'll test it out, sure, but it won't replace my main OS until it matures for 3-4 months first, barring any big problems of course. I am usually not an early adopter.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on April 01, 2016, 07:52:42 am
Just saw this in the Inbox of updates , I hid it but glad I looked at the info sheet first too , but get the Bold (which I did to highlight it) , a when not IF .

https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/kb/2952664

"This update performs diagnostics on the Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program. These diagnostics help determine whether compatibility issues may be encountered when the latest Windows operating system is installed. This update will help Microsoft and its partners ensure compatibility for customers who want to install the latest Windows operating system."
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Mechanical Menace on April 01, 2016, 10:25:14 am
Mechanical Menace:

The reason I was looking at Arch is that I have had previous experience with Linux

Sorry when I said it was a good "learning distro" I didn't mean for new users in particular but users of any level. Modern general use OSs are massive and complex and no single person knows a single one inside out. There's always something to learn lol.

Quote
but it can be kept up to date all the time and appears to not need a full re-install whereas other distros require a full re-install when the base version is changed. I rather like that idea.

So do I. Loved rolling updates on Gentoo and since. But it's not totally error free, if you take that route be prepared to occasionally fix something after an update. It's got a lot better though but tbh so have other distros that do full base updates. Once upon a time I'd advise people to not run the distro update but just do a fresh install, now I wouldn't because of how problem free the updates are.

Quote
Mint is coming up to a version change and so I don't want to go through re-install pains when it is time to update. Maybe I am putting too much into this.

Don't update until you want to, and don't think you have to reinstall. Honesty the worse I've had happen updating instead of reinstalling since Ubuntu 12.04 is certain repos have been disabled once or twice, and that was generally PPAs I shouldn't have bothered with anyway but forgot to remove lol. Bit of a pain but better than having to reinstall your whole OS manually just to update. I don't know how long it has been since you tried using Linux in anger but that has come a long, long way.

Quote
The biggest benefit I see with Mint is the big repository and ready to go installation.

That's pretty much why I use a *buntu or derivative on my main desktop most of the time. Well that and third parties general love of the *buntus.

Oh btw I'm not trying to talk you out of Arch or Mint, or away from Mint to something upstream, I'm just trying to give my honest appraisal. If my fanboyism was coming out I'd say go for Fedora or OpenSuse, but ones an experimental mess and the other overly conservative in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: David Spicer on April 01, 2016, 11:32:15 am
I am hyper paranoid about W10 stealthily installing itself. On my oldish i7 laptop is a lot of very costly EDA and CAD software. ALtium, Cadence, Various XIinx tools going back years, Othern FPGA design tools, simulators and so on. Most of this stuff is node locked to an ethernet MAC. I am so paranoid I took out the wi fi card (a mini pcie card) and every night I shut it down and pull out the ethernet plug. I also make a complete daddy and grandaddy clone using Acrornis, onto two SATA hard drives as well as an Acorns background backup. Problem is, Windows is still the platform EA and CAD tools are written for, Heaven knows why. XIlinx will run on Linux, but there are several compromises to be made.
Ain't this just the silliest situation? The only OS I trust is Linux. (I use centos). I have been gradually moving things into a VM using Virtual Box. So far so good. but It's not perfect. Even on a fairly meaty machine (i& quad etc) there is a noticeable performance hit when doing things like P an R for a large FPGA. At least it's easy to change the MAC.
Sigh. What is the world coming too? I'm only posting this to show what an absurd thing it all is.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: hayatepilot on April 01, 2016, 11:56:08 am
I find it pretty funny that we are all against spying from Microsoft on PCs but we are all using phones that are MUCH worse when it comes to spying.
And most (including me) don't have such a big problem with it on phones despite that they have much more information about us. (location, contacts, payment stuff and fitness if you have a smartwatch or fitnesstracker)


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on April 01, 2016, 12:06:28 pm
I'll get out the walking stick whilst I type this , Remember the XP days , there was a year or so in its middle to later life that was creating a bit of paranoia back then .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on April 01, 2016, 01:20:00 pm
I won't have a "smart phone" mainly because of those privacy issues. Well, that plus the fact that phone companies have gotten very creative in conning people out of money. I can't believe the amount of money people waste on phone service these days.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on April 01, 2016, 02:35:36 pm
How about Haircuts for those Females rdl , then the Nails and then whatever , all EE's are in the wrong business I reckon , Lol
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Syntax_Error on April 01, 2016, 03:10:23 pm
I find it pretty funny that we are all against spying from Microsoft on PCs but we are all using phones that are MUCH worse when it comes to spying.
And most (including me) don't have such a big problem with it on phones despite that they have much more information about us. (location, contacts, payment stuff and fitness if you have a smartwatch or fitnesstracker)

Oh I agree. I am well aware of the privacy issues related to mobile phones The difference is the lack of alternatives. With desktop OS, I can choose alternatives, albeit with concessions. With mobile phones, the only alternative is to not have or use one, and this is unacceptable to most, including me. If and when viable alternatives become available, I will certainly consider them.

So, due to this, my own alternative is to practice the IA principle of, "If it doesn't exist in the machine, it cannot be pulled out of the machine." and I just do not use my phone for sensitive communications or storage. This does nothing for metadata, which sucks, but again, it's the world we live in. To avoid it, you'd have to be a mountain hermit, and that's not the world I choose to live in.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rolycat on April 01, 2016, 03:22:37 pm
Just saw this in the Inbox of updates , I hid it but glad I looked at the info sheet first too , but get the Bold (which I did to highlight it) , a when not IF .

https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/kb/2952664 (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/kb/2952664)

"This update performs diagnostics on the Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program. These diagnostics help determine whether compatibility issues may be encountered when the latest Windows operating system is installed. This update will help Microsoft and its partners ensure compatibility for customers who want to install the latest Windows operating system."

They keep re-releasing that one - it's been around for a year. Not only that, but it snoops on you. It triggers a daily telemetry run which sends information back to Microsoft even if you have opted out of the "Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program".

Not content with that, Microsoft's latest sleazy trick is to hide Windows 10 upgrade nagware in security patches (http://www.ghacks.net/2016/03/09/security-update-ms16-023-installs-new-get-windows-10-functionality/). This really beggars belief.

I am beginning to feel that if I really want to improve my "Windows Customer Experience", I need to stop being a customer.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: German_EE on April 01, 2016, 04:13:10 pm
Add me to the list of non-smartphone users, mainly because of the privacy issues. It makes and receives phone calls, it creates and receives SMS messages and it's an alarm clock, that's it. Also there are two phone numbers in the contacts list, both my girlfriend. The NSA must find me very boring.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on April 01, 2016, 05:30:51 pm
Just saw this in the Inbox of updates , I hid it but glad I looked at the info sheet first too , but get the Bold (which I did to highlight it) , a when not IF .

https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/kb/2952664 (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/kb/2952664)

"This update performs diagnostics on the Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program. These diagnostics help determine whether compatibility issues may be encountered when the latest Windows operating system is installed. This update will help Microsoft and its partners ensure compatibility for customers who want to install the latest Windows operating system."
They keep re-releasing that one - it's been around for a year. Not only that, but it snoops on you. It triggers a daily telemetry run which sends information back to Microsoft even if you have opted out of the "Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program".

Not content with that, Microsoft's latest sleazy trick is to hide Windows 10 upgrade nagware in security patches (http://www.ghacks.net/2016/03/09/security-update-ms16-023-installs-new-get-windows-10-functionality/). This really beggars belief.

I am beginning to feel that if I really want to improve my "Windows Customer Experience", I need to stop being a customer.
Thanks for the link , that one was in here , removed IE 11 , then removed that KB3139929 and then hid it , now i gotta try and drive Firefox , its seems really laggy on scrolling , even turned off hardware acceleration and its still the same .

But a more important thing , can you show me how to remove the first previous quotation box in this post as its stuck in there when i quote you , pretty please , i have never learnt how to do it like which part in the first double quotes does one cut? , i have tried it a cupla times before and it has been a mess .

Edited> fixed the scrolling lag , tools/options/advanced/use smooth scrolling
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AndyC_772 on April 01, 2016, 06:14:58 pm
My phone doesn't contain my or my customers' confidential trade secrets and other valuable, proprietary information.

My PC does. Hence the completely different requirements for security and privacy.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rolycat on April 01, 2016, 07:09:31 pm
Thanks for the link , that one was in here , removed IE 11 , then removed that KB3139929 and then hid it , now i gotta try and drive Firefox , its seems really laggy on scrolling , even turned off hardware acceleration and its still the same .

But a more important thing , can you show me how to remove the first previous quotation box in this post as its stuck in there when i quote you , pretty please , i have never learnt how to do it like which part in the first double quotes does one cut? , i have tried it a cupla times before and it has been a mess .

You just remove matched pairs of quote, end-quote marks along with the text:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=whoever ...]
text to remove
more waffle
[/quote]

If they are nested and it looks confusing, delete the innermost pair first and then work outwards.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on April 01, 2016, 08:11:48 pm
They keep re-releasing that one - it's been around for a year. Not only that, but it snoops on you. It triggers a daily telemetry run which sends information back to Microsoft even if you have opted out of the "Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program".

Not content with that, Microsoft's latest sleazy trick is to hide Windows 10 upgrade nagware in security patches (http://www.ghacks.net/2016/03/09/security-update-ms16-023-installs-new-get-windows-10-functionality/). This really beggars belief.

I am beginning to feel that if I really want to improve my "Windows Customer Experience", I need to stop being a customer.

Again:
The best tool still IMHO for quick blocking of the spying, in Win7 and 8 at least, is:
https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat (https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat)

and this does more than the Steve Gibson utility.
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rolycat on April 01, 2016, 08:51:40 pm
They keep re-releasing that one - it's been around for a year. Not only that, but it snoops on you. It triggers a daily telemetry run which sends information back to Microsoft even if you have opted out of the "Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program".

Not content with that, Microsoft's latest sleazy trick is to hide Windows 10 upgrade nagware in security patches (http://www.ghacks.net/2016/03/09/security-update-ms16-023-installs-new-get-windows-10-functionality/). This really beggars belief.

I am beginning to feel that if I really want to improve my "Windows Customer Experience", I need to stop being a customer.

Again:
The best too still IMHO for quick blocking of the spying, in Win7 and 8 at least, is:
https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat (https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat)

and this does more than the Steve Gibson utility.
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)

Thanks, I was aware of these, and deployed GWX Control Panel on my Windows 7 box some time ago. I use a Linux machine for everything except electronics design and the odd game, so I'm not too bothered personally.

However, I still think it's worth documenting the ever further depths of iniquity to which Microsoft is willing to plunge.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on April 02, 2016, 04:04:58 am
You just remove matched pairs of quote, end-quote marks along with the text:
Code: [Select]
[quote author=whoever ...]
text to remove
more waffle
[/quote]
If they are nested and it looks confusing, delete the innermost pair first and then work outwards.
Ok i'll give it a go ..

edited many times , I give up !
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Messtechniker on April 19, 2016, 07:36:15 am
Agreed. But what is the alternative? Desktop Linux?
So I gave it a good spin.
The aim: use linux version of sigrok pulseview since it is better developed compared to windows sigrok pulseview.
The victim: an elderly AMD 3700+, 2 GB, 75 Mbit/s HDD, i.e. not all that fast but running well under W7 prof., PCI graphics board 800X600
The newcomer: Linux Mint 17.3, 32 bit.

And here we go:
1.) Downloaded Linix Mint 17.3 iso on a windows machine and created bootable USB stick. OK.
2.) Booted Live Linux Mint and installed it on an unformatted HDD identical to the one used for W7. Both in tray for easy swapping.
3.) Booted Mint from the HDD. Fine and in immediate contact with the internet. Friggin’ essential too to get command line information.
4.) Established contact with several network drives. Worked nice. Always had trouble doing that with XP W7 computers. Big +
5.) Installed a VNC server since I operate this computer remotely in my local network. Installation of VNC was a complete disaster. Tried 5 different VNC packages because after installation I could not find a configuration page. Took me 4 hours. Finally with x11VNC I got a configuration page. By my troubles were not over. Could only establish contact once and after exiting the session the X11VNC server would also shut down. Outright silly. So made it to autoboot by putting it in the autoboot folder. Worked after rebooting and could start and stop sessions at will. But after a reboot I would have to enter the configuration data locally each time again. Anyway, left it as it was because I wanted to get on. One further hour more or less wasted. Minus
6.) Found out that firefox in remote would scroll much slower compared to W7 in remote. Oh well. Minus
7.) Since I do a lot of old HDD testing I wanted to mount a blank HDD. Gave up on the command line. Wanted to install mountmanager, but it was not available for downloading. Oh no. Big minus
So I gave up for the moment or forever. I don’t know.

What bugs me most is the fact that it is hard to find a just installed program. I need to memorize its name. And with about 70+ progs on this W7 computer this is something which is simply not going to happen. To me it would be essential to have an icon on the desktop for each newly installed program. Digging it out from somewhere is simply not on. And the this terrible command line stuff. Searching for the right command line takes ages since there is a lot of incorrect or inapplicable information around.

So sigrok pulseview never made it to this Linux computer.

What do you think?

Yours Messtechniker


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on April 19, 2016, 07:42:45 am
That's about right. As I've said elsewhere even as a part time Linux sysadmin/devops guy I still use windows on the desktop. It does take a massive amount of headspace remembering what everything is called and where it is.

Typical Linux problem I saw last week: someone I know has 205 desktops rolled out with RHEL and they shipped an X update that broke every Intel HD graphics card in his cluster causing display corruption and all sorts. Solution, fortunately via ansible, change the display acceleration mode on all the machines. Took 2 minutes to deploy across all machines and restart the display servers. It wins on that scale easily but for a mere mortal like most of us, that sort of problem is end game.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on April 19, 2016, 07:48:10 am
The only deal keeps me running Windows is because it runs Altium. I will be very to switch to Linux if I can find a workaround to get AD running.
VBox lags a lot, Wine can not run it proper;y, and Crossover simply can not install it.

I was able to stick with Win7, but since I got a faster computer and the hardware is only supported by Win10+ or Linux, it is driving me off Win7.
I'm now running an very expensive computer at 80% of its performance due to some drivers are not installed properly for Win7.

So, any suggestions on how to run AD smoothly as a native program on Linux (preferably Fedora or Mint)? I am not willing to pay $300 on VMWare.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on April 19, 2016, 07:55:23 am
Use VMware player. Don't have to fish out for workstation. There are web sites to create empty VMs.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on April 19, 2016, 08:08:12 am
Use VMware player. Don't have to fish out for workstation. There are web sites to create empty VMs.

Will try that.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Circlotron on April 19, 2016, 08:34:16 am
Or Win7 inside VirtualBox on Linux. I run XP like that for one pesky chip programmer that will run on wine but with problems. VirtualBox is free.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on April 19, 2016, 08:40:00 am
Or Win7 inside VirtualBox on Linux. I run XP like that for one pesky chip programmer. VirtualBox is free.

3D performance of VBox is horrible. AD lags a lot that I judge it as unusable.
I am very sensitive to lagging. Basically I expect AD to run as fast as an FPS game.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on April 19, 2016, 08:46:13 am
VMware gets you closer than vbox. VBox is also terribly unreliable. Sometimes they just sling out versions that crash the kernel.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on April 19, 2016, 01:32:18 pm
What do you think?

Sounds to me like you tried to use Linux the "Windows way", ran into problems since that is fundamentally at odds with how Linux works, fought with it for a while, and then gave up.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on April 19, 2016, 01:38:25 pm
VMware gets you closer than vbox. VBox is also terribly unreliable. Sometimes they just sling out versions that crash the kernel.

I've been using VBox 24/7 for many, many years on many systems and have never seen that.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MrSlack on April 19, 2016, 01:44:34 pm
We had 45 developers on it. It's was a constant buggering. We ended up moving people over to Hyper-V.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Delta on April 19, 2016, 02:50:05 pm
I've just installed VirtualBox on Ubuntu, and Windows is running flawlessly on it (in it?)!  Just got to find something to do with it...






Windows 3.11 btw...  ;D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on April 19, 2016, 03:19:31 pm
I've just installed VirtualBox on Ubuntu, and Windows is running flawlessly on it (in it?)!  Just got to find something to do with it...






Windows 3.11 btw...  ;D

Bad things just clustered together.
1. AMD video support on Linux is particularly bad on Fedora/Ubuntu since starting from Kernel 4.4 and Xorg 10.8, fglrx can not be installed anymore.
2. I'm running a 22 core CPU with lower frequency, and it seems like VBox's 3D driver uses only 1 thread to convert DX calls to GL calls.
3. VBox itself sucks. Years ago I run AD6.9 in Parallels on absolute garbage hardware (i5 3317U+4G RAM), and it is better than VBox running on my $4000 dream computer.

Seems like I will give VMWare Player a try. If it works well, I will configure buy a licensed one, or even a pro license.
Latest version of VMWare Player can create VMs on its own, but the functionality is limited. Also, there is a non commercial requirement on unlicensed copies, which is fine for me, anyway I do not get paid by doing research.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Zero999 on April 19, 2016, 03:40:59 pm
I've just installed VirtualBox on Ubuntu, and Windows is running flawlessly on it (in it?)!  Just got to find something to do with it...






Windows 3.11 btw...  ;D
Windows 3.1 will run quite well on a DOS emulator too: DOSEmu and DOSBox both support it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: stmdude on April 19, 2016, 05:42:11 pm
3. VBox itself sucks. Years ago I run AD6.9 in Parallels on absolute garbage hardware (i5 3317U+4G RAM), and it is better than VBox running on my $4000 dream computer.

I'm not surprised.  AD is single-threaded...   You want the highest GHz CPU you can get your hands on to run it smoothly when doing large boards. The number of cores is irrelevant when running AD.  (They're good for a lot of other things though)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on April 19, 2016, 05:49:05 pm
I'm not surprised.  AD is single-threaded...   You want the highest GHz CPU you can get your hands on to run it smoothly when doing large boards. The number of cores is irrelevant when running AD.  (They're good for a lot of other things though)

I ran AD on a 1.6GHz CPU without turbo boost and it was still smooth. Of course, that was running it on Windows native.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: AlxDroidDev on April 20, 2016, 02:45:58 pm
Or Win7 inside VirtualBox on Linux. I run XP like that for one pesky chip programmer. VirtualBox is free.

I use VirtualBox on Windows 7 to run MacOS. I need it for native iOS development.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on April 29, 2016, 11:33:13 am
After enough frustration from Windows, I installed Ubuntu Gnome eventually, and no, VMWare does not work. Its 3D acceleration requires fglrx, so amdgpu can not satisfy its requirement. After tweaking a bit or two of configurations, I managed to run AD smoothly in VBox Windows 7, but it still lags, at least acceptable. Win7 animation lags, so I have to turn them off in advanced system settings.

Win7 is hardly usable on bare metal since there is no driver for the latest Xeon v4 processors. USB3.0 works intermittently, WiFi works intermittently, even SATA works intermittently, and even turbo boost seems not to be working properly. Besides, Win7 seems to have difficulty to address all 64GB of RAM, it can show 64GB installed and available RAM, but when I tried to run Windows Experience Index evaluation, it crashes (not BSoD, just WEI crashed). The only thing that works is the NVMe SSD, otherwise I won't even be able to boot. I tried to ask Intel for beta INF driver, but the Intel support representative is just a nut, he follows a Q&A template, but he didn't really understood what I asked :palm:.

The RAM themselves are okay, it is not a RAM issue. These are Micron REG ECC RAM shipped directly to me from Micron, and memtest86+ reports no issues.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Galenbo on June 15, 2016, 10:25:25 am
You can do real electronics design work in Linux, but there are some tools that only run in Windows. If you have to use those tools, you have to use Windows - no argument. A lot of Apple MAC users have to use Windows as well for the same reason...
This is strange. I would expect there are more possibilities for the electronics field in Linux, and less in Windows, and every possible gap would be filled within a week.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on June 15, 2016, 11:38:53 am
So, I betrayed my passion of hating Windows, and eventually settled down with Windows 10, with every and all user selectable spy options disabled.
There is simply no VM that can run Altium ***smoothly*** under Ubuntu 16.04 -- the lack of fglrx makes VMWare's 3D unhappy, and VBox's 3D is just a joke.
Another reason is, even with the closed source AMDGPU-PRO hybrid driver, the OpenCL performance on Ubuntu is still not on par with fglrx, let along Windows.
Talking about fglrx, on Ubuntu 15.10, where I can still install fglrx, the buggy power strategy makes my GPU card and PSU even the chassis, to whine and "click".


After moved to Windows 10, besides my false sensation of freedom, I almost lost nothing, with the exception of the holy Valgrind and all other memory leak and access debuggers.
None of the commercial memory leak and access violation debuggers support DWARF or PECOFF debugging symbols, and none of the Windows GCC ports can generate PDB.
Therefore, I'm now running a Ubuntu Server VM in background handling firewall (to prevent evil Windows from sniffing my data), compiler (mingw-w64 and Linux 64) and debugger for the Linux port.
I found libpocl1 is quite usable as a CPU only OpenCL implementation, albeit the much more bloated AMD APP should work better in terms of speed in a VM.

PS. Before moving my productive environment to Windows 10, I used Windows 10 from its first public beta on various platforms, VM, tablet and laptop. The latest 1511 version is quite usable, I would say it is as usable as Windows 7 without too much migrating pain.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Artlav on June 15, 2016, 12:02:45 pm
I'm running a 22 core CPU
Huh. How did that happen?
Or is it a machine at workplace?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on June 15, 2016, 12:15:15 pm
I'm running a 22 core CPU
Huh. How did that happen?
Or is it a machine at workplace?

Latest Xeon E5 2696v4 ($2200 from China, $3000 on eBay), it's an OEM model of 2699v4 (~$4000), with the same core numbers, same cache, same extensions and same turbo boost frequency as well as base frequency (actually 0.1GHz higher in single and dual core mode).

It's my home PC, which I develop my multi physics simulation engine on.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on August 25, 2016, 01:02:53 am
I did a game(risky) thing the other week since that win10 offer has now finnished , i turned on automatic updates after a break of many months .

All went well , checked the info on all those updates needed before i allowed win7-64 to update itself , also noticed a service pack or roll up , installed them all and all good .

Then a day or so later another roll-up service pack thing was available and still all good , so it looks like all that "Fever" of the win10 has passed (for now at least) , Blah win10 I'm happy with 7-64
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: botcrusher on August 25, 2016, 01:33:45 am
I've been running insider since it was first released, and it has been surprisingly stable considering us insiders are supposed to be getting all the bugs so nobody else has to.

I've only had maybe one or two builds that were garbage, and they were still fast, but apparently thought it was related to windows ME if you catch my meaning.

While I think the whole bait and switch Microsoft resorted to was a bit of a prick move, I do quite like Win 10, and I would use it in a working environment.

Mission critical applications?
Come on now, this is windows. Use Linux for that, I've never had it kernel panic for something that wasn't my fault.(What? I get trigger happy in synaptic from time to time)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: jonovid on August 25, 2016, 03:41:01 am
I have nothing good to say about how windows 10 is pushed on to us by microsoft.  its got a lot of added bloatware IMO.
by trying to sneak in a 1GB slab of windows 10 in to my the windows7 update, as an automatic install. But I caught it, Before it had time to install. IMO microsoft is trying to add or sneak-in an App Store to Windows . so to do this thy need to replace all older windows OS like Win 7 with Windows 10 , So I had to manually delete the Win 10 install, to save my working Win 7 from Win 10 install destruction.  IMO always keep  your hardware ahead of your software. if Win 10 gets on you system! your stuck with it, along with all the need to pay microsoft to fix Win10 problems, if your hardware is no up to speed with say 3D video or xbox live .   :rant:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: botcrusher on August 25, 2016, 06:33:22 am
It's windows 10, not the Antichrist...

Yeah, the bait and switch auto update was a dick move, but I can assure you it isn't bloated...

Even on a fairly slow Seagate HDD it boots to a usable desktop in rather negligible time compared to windows 7.

"Windows 10 destruction" -What are you going on about?

"if your hardware is no up to speed with say 3D video or xbox live" -First, what? All three major vendors have had their drivers out and stable within a month of windows 10's release**. If somehow the unified drivers aren't supporting your card, It's time for a new gpu. Second, define "xbox live" in this context.

**Release of insider, way before the average user even saw what windows 10 looked like.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on August 25, 2016, 06:45:44 am
Me neither jonovid , i posted quite a few pages back about how i did try the free win10 using a spare (from the raid array as i was doing a win7 reinstall anyway) ssd , i did not like win10 immediately , if i wanted a tablet I'd buy one but really i just did not like it full stop.

Unless there was a real real major change in the W10 ui and all that connectivity bs bloat and all that Kiddy stuff i do not think I'll ever go there , imo of course .

It is a real shame now though that Microsoft to me is now become the enemy , and that's from all those experiences from W95 through (98, me , 2000 , xp) on to W7 and its only now they are in the to watch list .

Recall all those in the past pop-up box's with the extra tick box of "Trust Microsoft" ? , i can't remember the last time i saw one of those .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: R005T3r on August 25, 2016, 07:14:37 am
The only deal keeps me running Windows is because it runs Altium. I will be very to switch to Linux if I can find a workaround to get AD running.
VBox lags a lot, Wine can not run it proper;y, and Crossover simply can not install it.

I was able to stick with Win7, but since I got a faster computer and the hardware is only supported by Win10+ or Linux, it is driving me off Win7.
I'm now running an very expensive computer at 80% of its performance due to some drivers are not installed properly for Win7.

So, any suggestions on how to run AD smoothly as a native program on Linux (preferably Fedora or Mint)? I am not willing to pay $300 on VMWare.
Ok. I advice to do so:
1. install linux mint or any linux distro you want, it's not important as primary partition on your hard drive: you will use it for surfing and doing standard stuff.
2. install windows 7 and keep it constantly offilne to run your favorite programs if you need computing power or use a virtualbox instead...

It seems unhandy, but with linux you can mount your windows C partition and you can make file management/pickup from it and it's ok.
You don't have to spend money on VMware: use Virtualbox and you are ok, but keep in mind that a virtual machine is way slower than a phisical machine...

Anyway, yes, windows is getting more and more an abomination of engineering: I've seen many viruses and many other nasty stuff: cryptolocker/worms and stuff like that, even spyware software.... But an entire system that is created to spy on you, I admit I never seen something like that: you can defeat disk encryption, they can defeat virtualization, they can exploit pretty much anything, antivirus included.. They can collect "data" and what about metadata (markers and stuff like that) being collected? So basically they not only can steal your passwords (credit cards included, if you use them) in no time, they can upload pretty much anything you produce whitout your consent (trojan horse) AND the huge amount of information and stuff like that it's fully searchable because of metadata in notime!
But the real disgusting thing, is not the fact that they keep these information for themselves. They sell them to third parties (including your government or foreign ones... )

It won't be a surprise if there's a way to connect wifi bridges between windows10 computers if the system see if there's an air gap on the pc so they can defeat that... So, definitely are you going to update to windows10? Think about it twice.

A simple curiosity I've found on web: military are switching over linux instead of windows...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kilrah on August 25, 2016, 07:53:33 am
But an entire system that is created to spy on you, I admit I never seen something like that: you can defeat disk encryption, they can defeat virtualization, they can exploit pretty much anything, antivirus included.. They can collect "data" and what about metadata (markers and stuff like that) being collected? So basically they not only can steal your passwords (credit cards included, if you use them) in no time, they can upload pretty much anything you produce whitout your consent (trojan horse) AND the huge amount of information and stuff like that it's fully searchable because of metadata in notime!

 :palm: |O

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Zero999 on August 25, 2016, 08:21:15 am
A simple curiosity I've found on web: military are switching over linux instead of windows...

Yes, but why? Cost probably. A bout of religious zealotry, probably not.
I doubt it's cost. It's probably because Microsoft don't support old versions of Windows for long enough and switching to Linux means they can support it indefinitely. I work at an aerospace company and we use Linux on critical systems (not on the desktop, that's Windows only) because it can be customised and we don't have to deal with MS ending support.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on August 25, 2016, 09:37:40 am
The enforced updates in Win10 are working perfectly fine:

Microsoft Has Broken Millions Of Webcams With Windows 10 Anniversary Update
https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/76719/microsoft-broken-millions-webcams-windows-10-anniversary-update (https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/76719/microsoft-broken-millions-webcams-windows-10-anniversary-update)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: bitslice on August 25, 2016, 10:02:25 am
I've actually found a feature in Win10 that is useful

Ctrl + V now works in a command window.
at last...


that's it, there's no other point in upgrading.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kilrah on August 25, 2016, 10:31:40 am
Taskbars on all monitors, proper HiDPI support, better performance, native support for 4K video  decoding do it for me. A few convenient things such as "open command prompt here", mounting of ISO files, editing of environment variables and some more I don't think of OTOH are welcome too.
I don't think I've found a drawback yet.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on August 25, 2016, 11:20:02 am
No Windows 10 for me, too dangerous. There's no way I can use an OS that's only secure if disconnected from any kind of network or does not store any significant user data.

I have one machine left that still has Windows on it (Windows 7). I reinstalled it a few weeks ago from the original OEM disk. I wanted to get all the updates prior to 2015, but every time I try Windows Update fails to connect. I guess microsoft's system is overtaxed from copying the contents of all the windows 10 users computers.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: b_force on August 25, 2016, 11:37:16 am
There are many ways to get rid of that Win10 popup message btw!

Personally, I haven't seen any mayor improvements since WinXP. It's mostly just eye candy.
Most of the things could easily be implemented, but they simply refused. (I guess they need something new and 'important" for the next update).

The only thing that really bothers me in Win7 is that audio over bluetooth isn't working. Microsoft is telling that people need to contact the hardware companies. The hardware companies say people need to contact microsoft. DOH!

I've actually found a feature in Win10 that is useful

Ctrl + V now works in a command window.
at last...


that's it, there's no other point in upgrading.
That's not a new feature, that's just a flaw in the old version!  ;) 8)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on August 25, 2016, 12:09:32 pm
Imo , nearly all these last few posts have happened over the last 20 years many times , some updates crashed/trashed the whole system to make it un-bootable , plenty of times in all versions but rarely in win7 so far , win7 has been good just like xp sp2 was , i was really doubtful on upgrading to win7 but so far (excluding the w10 saga) its also been all good , so what I'm getting at is all that stuff and more and many instances over heaps of pages in the thread has all happened before .

What I'm actually really getting at and i do not care whether one likes or thinks win10 is the best thing since sliced bread is i personally think that w10 is terrible to look at , and terrible to work with the GUI , because it is just like a tablet or whatever one would want to call it , like i mentioned in my case if i wanted a tablet i would buy one and the reason i prefer desktops (even if its old in today's world) is the fact it is a desktop environment and GUI .

And i do believe some that have posted and have learnt over the years that the meta data collecting is more prevalent in w10 and I'm not saying it has never happened with any previous versions just that it is "more" than previous , it also fits in with all the monitoring of the world (spying) from that area just recently been busted .

Sure MS has to keep up with the kiddies (you poor kiddies it's your fault yaknow) , they have to feed the feeds and that bit is OK by me as i do not care , but , , i do not want or require to be force fed or forced feeded off , no apps no connectivity only the net and no other bullshit and just play my favorite pc game , hopefully i can last for awhile longer on W7 but when the time comes I'll throw that away as I'll throw away everything else , move to the middle Himalayas , no power , no nothing , just a pair of binoculars and a battery Short Wave Radio and listen and watch all you lot get fully Nuked big time , and yes I'll be Laughing my Guts out too Ha Ha Ha Ha ..

And if your wondering up at the Himalayas , there won't get Nuked as no one will know I'm up there Ha Ha Ha Ha
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: crispy_tofu on August 25, 2016, 12:22:29 pm
Personally, I haven't seen any mayor improvements since WinXP. It's mostly just eye candy.
How about Aero Snap (introduced in Vista, where you can snap windows to the sides of the screen or make it full screen)? That's quite useful, although there's pretty much nothing else noteworthy (does anyone even use Aero Shake? ...) ...  :)

Correction 1/9/16: Aero Snap, Shake and Peek were all introduced in Windows 7, not Vista.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: b_force on August 25, 2016, 12:27:04 pm
Personally, I haven't seen any mayor improvements since WinXP. It's mostly just eye candy.
How about Aero Snap (introduced in Vista, where you can snap windows to the sides of the screen or make it full screen)? That's quite useful, although there's pretty much nothing else noteworthy (does anyone even use Aero Shake? ...) ...  :)
The fact it's there, doesn't mean it wasn't possible in WinXP.
There are tons of 3rd party applications who can do all these kinds of things.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on August 25, 2016, 12:46:27 pm
I have one machine left that still has Windows on it (Windows 7). I reinstalled it a few weeks ago from the original OEM disk. I wanted to get all the updates prior to 2015, but every time I try Windows Update fails to connect. I guess microsoft's system is overtaxed from copying the contents of all the windows 10 users computers.

You need to be extremely patient. Some users had to wait about 12-24 hours to get the updates. Based on the experience on how MS tried to push Win10 to all PCs running Windows >=7, I'd think that this is another deliberate attempt to encourage people to upgrade.

PS: I won't install Win10 on any of my private PCs. My PCs are mine, not MS's. :box:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on August 25, 2016, 12:48:47 pm
But an entire system that is created to spy on you, I admit I never seen something like that: you can defeat disk encryption, they can defeat virtualization, they can exploit pretty much anything, antivirus included.. They can collect "data" and what about metadata (markers and stuff like that) being collected? So basically they not only can steal your passwords (credit cards included, if you use them) in no time, they can upload pretty much anything you produce whitout your consent (trojan horse) AND the huge amount of information and stuff like that it's fully searchable because of metadata in notime!

 :palm: |O

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg)

You can't pull out the tin foil hat images if it's true.

Windows 10 collects everything you do, and can legally send everything back to Microsoft, it's all in the EULA.  There are options in the settings to turn some of the data collection off, but Windows turns those settings back on by itself without your knowledge or consent.  I'm not joking or exaggerating there, the first Win 10 machine I used (this was after the full release, not insider), I went into the settings and turned the collection/distribution of all private data off.  I then installed a couple of pending updates, rebooted, went back into the settings, and half of them had turned themselves back on!

Microsoft has shifted its business model from software sales to subscription and data collection.  You don't want a company like that running the OS on your personal computer, especially not a company that has proved time and time again that they are more than willing to use underhanded and borderline illegal tactics to get what they want, even without users' consent.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on August 25, 2016, 01:02:48 pm
Sadly true, some (many, all?) updates reset several settings back to their defaults. Who would check all changed settings after each update? It's insane.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Whales on August 25, 2016, 01:12:44 pm
I used a winXP computer today.  Old machine, but it had never been networked.  It booted extremely fast and did everything extremely well.  The system time was off by a few hours, but I think it would be ethically wrong to tell this machine that it was doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on August 25, 2016, 01:29:24 pm
My daughters laptop got the windows 10 virus a while back.  We get the usage e-mail and I have to laugh because its been showing 0 usage for weeks now because her laptop isn't useable anymore.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kilrah on August 25, 2016, 02:36:47 pm
You can't pull out the tin foil hat images if it's true.

I sure can, because while M$ do collect info so do tens of thousands of other companies as soon as you're doing anything on the web. The point is that if you're here, MS is probably the least of your worries. It's just laughable how everybody screams to evil M$ while being completely oblivious to the rest of their surroundings... W10 gave such a good opportunity to point the finger at that people suddenly completely forgot about the rest, even when it's orders of magnitude above.

When I look at it I see that now that they consider users' feedback and how their product is used they're finally fixing things that should have been done long ago - that's the whole point of it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on August 25, 2016, 02:49:13 pm
You can't pull out the tin foil hat images if it's true.

I sure can, because while M$ do collect info so do tens of thousands of other companies as soon as you're doing anything on the web. The point is that if you're here, MS is probably the least of your worries. It's just laughable how everybody screams to evil M$ while being completely oblivious to the rest of their surroundings... W10 gave such a good opportunity to point the finger at that people suddenly completely forgot about the rest, even when it's orders of magnitude above.

When I look at it I see that now that they consider users' feedback and how their product is used they're finally fixing things that should have been done long ago - that's the whole point of it.

The big difference is that those "other companies" are somewhere you have to make an active decision to go. It's your choice. Windows 10 is an OS, it's always there snooping into everything on your computer and anything it can access on your local network. It's not under your control. Those "other companies" you visit on the internet do not have the same privileges.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kilrah on August 25, 2016, 02:58:50 pm
The big difference is that those "other companies" are somewhere you have to make an active decision to go. It's your choice.
Not at all.

Every single click you make online can be (and is) logged, tracked and forwarded to any number of entities anywhere in the world without you having any clue about it nor being able to find the info should you want to. It's not in your control either, unless you don't go online at all. Guess what, if you don't go online at all with W10 it won't supply info either  ^-^
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on August 25, 2016, 03:01:32 pm
You can't pull out the tin foil hat images if it's true.

I sure can, because while M$ do collect info so do tens of thousands of other companies as soon as you're doing anything on the web. The point is that if you're here, MS is probably the least of your worries. It's just laughable how everybody screams to evil M$ while being completely oblivious to the rest of their surroundings... W10 gave such a good opportunity to point the finger at that people suddenly completely forgot about the rest, even when it's orders of magnitude above.

When I look at it I see that now that they consider users' feedback and how their product is used they're finally fixing things that should have been done long ago - that's the whole point of it.

Not even close to the same thing.  Those companies online don't have root access to your personal computer with loggers recording every keystroke you make, anywhere, for any reason.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on August 25, 2016, 03:03:21 pm
The big difference is that those "other companies" are somewhere you have to make an active decision to go. It's your choice.
Not at all.

Every single click you make online can be (and is) logged, tracked and forwarded to any number of entities anywhere in the world without you having any clue about it nor being able to find the info should you want to. It's not in your control either, unless you don't go online at all. Guess what, if you don't go online at all with W10 it won't supply info either  ^-^

There's a huge difference between recording mouse clicks on websites and recording every file you write, every key you press, and every word you speak within range of the microphone on your computer.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: joeqsmith on August 27, 2016, 09:37:10 pm
My first post using the new PC.

I installed Wireshark and was going to start looking at the packets to control my National Instruments Ethernet GPIB adapters.   I had all the BS crap I thought disabled but the OS keeps making recommendations about some stupid candy ass game it thinks I want to play.   When I fired up Wireshark there was a fair amount of traffic.  See attached for one packet. 

IE was not running, nor was anything else for that matter.  The data in the packet is very strange.

Quote
Most of the time when you go to the hospital its a game of hurry up and wait.  You rush to get the medical attention you need, and then wait for what see....

Doing a search on the phrase I get the following

http://labviewni.com/category/medical/ (http://labviewni.com/category/medical/)

I was impressed they could target what they thought I may be interested in, even though Explorer was not running.   The IP address they were targeting was 23.220.240.123.   This is not National's but rather seems to be a company called Akamai Technologies.   I started reading on them and ..... wow.   

No wonder MS wanted me to give up XP...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: GEuser on August 28, 2016, 12:54:49 am
 joeqsmith , i have seen that stuff before too , that Akamai has often come up too and a couple of well known others , Norton is another i can think of atm .

Don't expect me to be accurate as this other stuff has been found over the years and on different platforms , quite often (but not lately w7 as i have give up being interested) in the past i have looked deep inside the hard drive with some specific software to see what was poking around of course spending hours and hours doing so , i was amazed at some of the stuff that was found , long rants by someone's? but obviously a programmer and some actually claiming MS or suggesting , stories and generally weird ones too , several back and forth conversations between what looked like insiders? of MS , in some embedded MS files little quotes and snippets of so called wisdom , and some pictures that i know i have never seen on the net or looked at ever , and all in all most was never download by me with my knowledge or seen or ever even known about!

One had to really drill down into the Hard drive as all that stuff was not visible or accessible in a normal way , the machines over the years to me were always "safe" , never had a issue with virus/Trojans and would be deemed relatively clean , yet there was all that useless? stuff just sitting there hidden away .
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: crispy_tofu on August 28, 2016, 12:28:22 pm
Personally, I haven't seen any mayor improvements since WinXP. It's mostly just eye candy.
How about Aero Snap (introduced in Vista, where you can snap windows to the sides of the screen or make it full screen)? That's quite useful, although there's pretty much nothing else noteworthy (does anyone even use Aero Shake? ...) ...  :)
The fact it's there, doesn't mean it wasn't possible in WinXP.
There are tons of 3rd party applications who can do all these kinds of things.
That's true, but they're mostly extremely buggy and just don't work as well as the one in Win7 or even Vista... :-\
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Delta on August 28, 2016, 01:46:38 pm
Personally, I haven't seen any mayor improvements since WinXP. It's mostly just eye candy.
How about Aero Snap (introduced in Vista, where you can snap windows to the sides of the screen or make it full screen)? That's quite useful, although there's pretty much nothing else noteworthy (does anyone even use Aero Shake? ...) ...  :)
The fact it's there, doesn't mean it wasn't possible in WinXP.
There are tons of 3rd party applications who can do all these kinds of things.
That's true, but they're mostly extremely buggy and just don't work as well as the one in Win7 or even Vista... :-\

Ubuntu MATE did that when I upgraded to it - it was extremely annoying!  Fortunately I was able to disable it...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on August 29, 2016, 05:55:33 pm
I was impressed they could target what they thought I may be interested in, even though Explorer was not running.   The IP address they were targeting was 23.220.240.123.   This is not National's but rather seems to be a company called Akamai Technologies.   I started reading on them and ..... wow.   
Akamai, is a company that you can hire to host files across the world - i.e., if your file server is in one geographical location and you want to speed up file transfers in another part of the world you can hire them and they will allocate server storage, synchronize and reroute any data requests.

I suspect they don't scrutinize what data is being served. Therefore it may be possible that a company whose servers were hacked may automatically synchronize its data in all other servers hosted by Akamai which will fool you into believing they are the ones spewing spyware. Not sure, though.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: crispy_tofu on August 30, 2016, 10:50:46 am
Dropbox just discontinued support for Windows XP, which is another nail in XP's coffin...  :(
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on August 30, 2016, 11:34:55 am
"There are a million of free CAD programs"

To most people, that would be reason no 1 to not use any of those  "free" programs.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: joeqsmith on August 31, 2016, 02:00:41 am
After spending several days working out how to control my PCI board, I was pretty confident that I could pull the plug on the old P4 XP box.  Just needed to do a few simple tasks ... or so I thought. 

How do you take something as simple as email and screw it up??  I use different incoming/outgoing ports for SSL with 3DES.  It appears MS removed the ability to change them. 

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_apps-insider_mail/how-to-set-pop3-and-smtp-server-port-addresses-for/2433a934-08de-4b9f-a1c6-1f2ff60c942d?auth=1 (http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_apps-insider_mail/how-to-set-pop3-and-smtp-server-port-addresses-for/2433a934-08de-4b9f-a1c6-1f2ff60c942d?auth=1)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: joeqsmith on August 31, 2016, 03:00:02 am
Managed to get it working...   

So, the servername:port seems to be the correct format.  Appears to require access to the calendar.  Make sure to reset the PC!  I had stored my password for the account and Mail kept asking for it every time I would try a different test.  After the reset, it now seems to know. 

I did not find anything on how to select the algorithm.  It must be smart enough to figure that out....

Now that I can at least send and receive, I notice no more drag and drop for attachments.  Is it really this bad? 

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/apps_windows_10-outlook_mail/windows-10-drop-n-drag-window-mail-attachment/a2ad94f6-c478-461a-81a4-29f9278c2e6c?auth=1 (http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/apps_windows_10-outlook_mail/windows-10-drop-n-drag-window-mail-attachment/a2ad94f6-c478-461a-81a4-29f9278c2e6c?auth=1)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on August 31, 2016, 04:25:18 am
This person has a good point:

Quote
Microsoft, for God's sake, could you please provide these "engineers" with at least some fundamental instruction? The reason the Windows 10 Mail App doesn't allow drag and drop is because it doesn't possess that capability.

Meantime your "engineer" is on here advising people to take their installation apart bit by bit, costing them I would bet more than an hour of their time, and everything he recommends is wrong. It has to be wrong because THE PROGRAM DOESN'T HAVE DRAG-AND-DROP CAPABILITY! Shame on you.

From what little I've seen, the "help" people get from Microsoft forums is a joke.



Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: botcrusher on September 26, 2016, 11:23:07 am
I tried going on said Microsoft forums to help people I solved a few people's problems, but then some of the powers that be would ignore my perfectly good answer and send users on a wild goose chase. God forbid I once tried to get help I kept getting bounced around things I either already told them clearly that I had tried, or ridiculous solutions that are not related at all

"I have an SSD with no specific driver, the UEFI can boot it, and Linux is happy with it, but I can't for the life of me get windows 10 to even acknowledge It's existence. Just in case, I even ran a round of windows defender and malwarebytes."

"Have you tried the malicious software removal tool?"
 :rant:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on September 26, 2016, 12:00:15 pm
I tried going on said Microsoft forums to help people I solved a few people's problems, but then some of the powers that be would ignore my perfectly good answer and send users on a wild goose chase. God forbid I once tried to get help I kept getting bounced around things I either already told them clearly that I had tried, or ridiculous solutions that are not related at all

"I have an SSD with no specific driver, the UEFI can boot it, and Linux is happy with it, but I can't for the life of me get windows 10 to even acknowledge It's existence. Just in case, I even ran a round of windows defender and malwarebytes."

"Have you tried the malicious software removal tool?"
 :rant:

Sounds more like a Turing test with the possible outcomes:


I'll grant that a couple of those are almost indistinguishable but the original Turing test was meant to differentiate quite subtle differences.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on September 26, 2016, 12:37:34 pm
I tried going on said Microsoft forums to help people I solved a few people's problems, but then some of the powers that be would ignore my perfectly good answer and send users on a wild goose chase. God forbid I once tried to get help I kept getting bounced around things I either already told them clearly that I had tried, or ridiculous solutions that are not related at all

"I have an SSD with no specific driver, the UEFI can boot it, and Linux is happy with it, but I can't for the life of me get windows 10 to even acknowledge It's existence. Just in case, I even ran a round of windows defender and malwarebytes."

"Have you tried the malicious software removal tool?"
 :rant:

I agree, I had misplaced hope that Microsoft's own employees (or those they subcontract to) would have actually added value on their own community forums rather than just repeat the script of a 12yo to run a random flavour of the month adware removal tool.

The quality of software from Microsoft has definitely taken a dive. If I wanted to spend half my life wondering into and around a maze of deeper and deeper rabbit holes in an OS and ecosystem around it built on quicksand, I'd be running Linux as my preferred daily driver OS. Worse, Microsoft force their updates on you: at least you get a choice with Linux.

I very strongly suspect there is a correlation between Microsoft laying off of testing staff and the drop in quality of their software. Their model of using the Insider Program is misplaced as (a) participants will be unlikely to put the previews on bare metal, so drivers are not going to be properly tested if at all, (b) end users have little visibility of release notes so don't know what to target in testing and (c) the use case for almost all of those on an Insider Program is going to be a fresh install, not an upgrade, which is the use case for a very significant proportion of the real user community.

This is why, for example, stuff like webcams stopped working with Skype or OpenBroadcaster, very few knew of the change to functionality/implementation, or what the impact might have been.

I am spending longer and longer mending Windows nowadays, and frankly I now have quite a bit more sympathy and understanding for those who jump ship to Linux as their daily driver than I did a year or two ago.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: setq on September 26, 2016, 01:14:47 pm
That's about it actually. Quality has declined. Not that there was any to start with but as a Windows user for about 24 years now it hasn't got any better. This increases friction and therefore drives up cost and removes hair, which I'm getting short of now. I like hair. It keeps my head warm in winter which is rapidly approaching.

As a 50/50 Linux/Windows guy, the friction is horrible on the windows side of things compared to Linux. Typical example of today's friction: Microsoft's download site is shitting a veritable brick every 5 minutes. So in this case, I've got to deploy build host machines via Ansible from Linux onto Windows. So we use Chocolatey which is a poorly conceived and implemented copy of a Linux package manager to bridge that awful gap in windows, because everything else is Linux. Don't even mention Powershell DSC which is a joke. To install the Windows 7.1 SDK, we tell ansible to tell windows to install it. This navigates an http based protocol (WinRM) to talk to the target windows machine, which fires up a CLR VM with powershell in it, which runs a whole stack of crap that fetches a file from microsoft download site, checksums it and runs an exe with some command line parameters. This in turn pukes out a few hundred MSI files on disk and proceeds to install them. An MSI file is a database with some files in it. Each of these fires up a windows service and talks to it via COM and proceeds to tell that to do things in a privileged execution mode. Eventually it dumps about 100,000 files on disk and screws the registry up for a bit. That is if the following conditions are satisfied: a) the person who maintains the chocolatey definition actually cares any more, b) they haven't issued an update which has screwed up WinRM again, c) microsoft haven't reorganised their download site again, d) various random problems caused by the sheer complexity of the above, e) it hasn't been rebooted since an automatic update we didn't ask for and has been turned off, f) if it errors, someone actually bothers to handle it as every single package installer does something different and surprising.

But alas, no, not today. We're greeted with a checksum failure because Microsoft's download site is just chopping off connections left right and center. This is fed back through the stack of the above as the following: "Error installing windows-sdk-7.1" which is returned as successful because every layer has different error handling semantics.

So off our software goes and builds on this fresh stack of poo and throws because it can't find the SDK dependencies.

So after deciphering logs galore, I hit the download site with firefox and the problem is apparent:

(http://i.imgur.com/fHiVd0d.png)

4.5 hours elapsed so far. Each attempt takes around 1 hour to complete when it does work. This is money down the pan. Lots of it. I'm quite expensive as is AWS kit that is sitting there doing diddly squat.

Compared to CentOS "yum groupinstall 'development tools'" and wait 2-3 minutes that works every time, thousands of times over, because of mirroring, engineering and sensible design.

And that's where the quality problems are.

The completely offensive bit is they spend so much money on marketing and being loud to try and drown out the house of cards their products exist on top of and people keep buying that because Ballmer has gone and Satya is the second coming so it's the new Microsoft. Nope. Same turd, different glitter.

I think the general end user, even power users aren't subject to the experience of having these sorts of friction problems being amplified many times over as well by having lots of windows infrastructure to look after. The complexity is O(n!)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on September 26, 2016, 06:57:00 pm
For me the quality went up through w2k but then started down with XP.  There were several things that worked in w2k that XP couldn't do reliably.  Thats what moved me to linux.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 26, 2016, 07:15:34 pm
I miss win2k, it was my favourite OS.  It was clean looking, fast, fairly lightweight, and functional. It was also quite stable.  When XP came out it was a bloated buggy POS, it took several years and service packs before it became good and not far after that time MS was trying to get people off it.   7 is decent, but 8 and 10 are a joke.    We don't talk about Vista.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on September 26, 2016, 09:13:33 pm
Another thumbs up for w2k. Solid, and the first to support hot pluggable hardware. Almost everything since has been largely chrome polishing and irritatingly whifting around the furniture, like supermarkets move their aisles around.

Suffering Windows Server 2012 and 2012 r2 with the Modern UI is frankly pathetic, WTF Microsoft were thinking is beyond me. It's a server, it won't have a frikkin' touch screen. I noticed today the Server 2016 is out.

There are two types of users, content consumers and content creators. For content consumers, where surfing the web and writing the odd minimalist tweet and email, tablets and smart phones are well aligned. Content creators, though, use keyboards and mice and don't appreciate all that high DPI resolution screen real estate taken up with Duplo buttons. That means that trying to shoehorn two fundamentally different generalised use cases into one OS is likely to create a suboptimal compromise, and that pans out in the Windows 8/8.1/10/2012/2012r2 debacle.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on September 26, 2016, 09:46:30 pm
NTFS Permissions.

Words fail me when I try to express how much I truly hate the very existence of this annoying garbage.

Access Denied
You don't have permission
Error. Could not change permissions.
Cannot delete. File is in use by another program.

All from a flash drive with "Everyone" having "Full control" and "Everyone" as the "Owner"

It's an obfuscated, convoluted mess full of contradictions and lies.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on September 26, 2016, 10:05:45 pm
8.1, and 2012 r2, are quite usable. I can't say the same for 2012 or 8.0. Biggest problem with 2012 is when remoting in to servers, trying to get to exactly the right spot to activate the charms bar - it's bad enough with local control but with the lag introduced via remote control, forget it. 2012 R2, you don't have to do that.

XP was the first time I actually did an upgrade of a Windows OS instead of clean install. Started with Win2K Workstation on that machine. And the XP install (upgrade) worked perfectly as long as I continued to use that machine, never had to do a wipe and reinstall, or any of that silly business people constantly say you need to do with Windows - I've never done that with ANY version of Windows in all the years I've used Windows.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 26, 2016, 10:35:11 pm
NTFS Permissions.

Words fail me when I try to express how much I truly hate the very existence of this annoying garbage.

Access Denied
You don't have permission
Error. Could not change permissions.
Cannot delete. File is in use by another program.

All from a flash drive with "Everyone" having "Full control" and "Everyone" as the "Owner"

It's an obfuscated, convoluted mess full of contradictions and lies.

Honestly that is one of the few things I actually HATE in Linux that I prefer in Windows, the unix file permission system is a POS.  Want to have multiple groups of users with different levels of access to the same folder, want a streamlined set of inheritable permissions so if one user creates a folder/file all the other users have the proper access?  That's not happening in Linux without jumping through some hoops.  There is ACLs, but that's not native, so half the time it won't be supported/installed/enabled etc. So can't rely on that.

A well managed NTFS file structure can be a dream to manage - well managed is key word, it can be a mess too.  The key is to NOT assign users directly to folders, but groups, and avoid breaking inheritance (you don't even GET inheritance in Linux).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Monkeh on September 26, 2016, 11:20:04 pm
(you don't even GET inheritance in Linux).

.. yes, yes you do. That's what setgid is for, and ACLs can have inheritance.

Unix permissions and ACLs are quite powerful, they're just not clicky easy.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: setq on September 27, 2016, 06:00:57 am
There's SELinux as well which is very nice when you take the time to understand it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: helius on September 27, 2016, 06:20:43 am
But is it PIG DISGUSTING?? (https://www.lurkmore.com/view/PIG_DISGUSTING)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Faith on September 27, 2016, 06:33:50 am
There's SELinux as well which is very nice when you take the time to understand it.

Amen to that. SELinux is such an absolute blessing and charm to use that it saddens me that so many users (and admins of Linux server deployments especially) choose "setenforce 0" as a solution to any SELinux-related problem rather than to try understand what SELinux is for and what it can accomplish for operating system security.

And while it can seem extremely daunting to some to write their own SELinux rule modules it really isn't that complicated. And it can be quite enlightening too!

Not to mention there are many scenarios where using SELinux to limit what resource an application can access is more desirable than using a sandbox or virtual machine. It pains me whenever I'm using Windows and I cannot say "I do not want some.exe to be able to write to some folder or read some other folder" and et cetera.

And it goes far beyond that. You can use SELinux to manage very specific permissions for almost any kind of resource (file system, network, process, and so on).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: setq on September 27, 2016, 07:47:27 am
Exactly. Our windows only guys seem to fire up a windows VM in Hyper-V every time they need process isolation. It sucks and is expensive. Hopefully windows 2016 containers will make that less horrible.

There's also LXC if you need full logical domain isolation in Linux.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Faith on September 27, 2016, 09:09:13 am
The problem with Windows 2016 is that it requires Windows 10 to manage remotely. And with Microsoft's whole "Windows Server installations should be Core and ALL administration should be via remote MMC" nonsense that becomes a little bit of a problem if you're still on Windows 7 or 8.

And let's not pretend that PowerShell can accomplish 100% of what we need 100% of the time. It doesn't.

Don't get me wrong though, I always run my Linux Servers without ANY GUI component installed. I prefer CLI over GUI for almost anything with a server-ish role. The problem with Windows is that it was not designed with CLI-only use in mind as with Linux or Cisco IOS. Hence why it's called... Windows.

And Windows 10 can go to hell until such time it lets me control what updates and what drivers I want on my PC.

PowerShell definitely has its pros and especially with WMI et al it's wonderful how easy it is to pipe arrays of data from one location to another while filtering said data on the fly. But all that comes crashing down rather quick once you encounter a service which is missing one specific option in PS.

Especially when that happens with a Windows-standard service. And the length of some PS cmdlets can be annoying too. Eep.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: setq on September 27, 2016, 09:34:22 am
True. Powershell is a turd as well as the abstraction is broken.

I just spent 30 minutes this morning in powershell writing a script to append a variable to the system path. So first attempt I tried env Path, but no user scoped. So second attempt, I tried the stuff in [Environment]. No banana - it expands paths so I can't update them afterwards. It's all either behind COM, some clever magic or an API somewhere. So eventually I found it in the registry and wrote this:

Code: [Select]
[Microsoft.Win32.Registry]::LocalMachine.OpenSubKey('SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Environment', $true)
$sysPath = $key.GetValue('Path', $null, 'DoNotExpandEnvironmentNames');
write-host "$sysPath"
foreach($path in $paths) {
    if ($sysPath -like "*$path*") {
        continue;
    }
    $sysPath = $sysPath + ";" + $path;
}
$key.SetValue('Path', $sysPath, 'ExpandString');
$key.Dispose();

Compare to Linux

Code: [Select]
echo "PATH=$PATH:/whatever" >> /etc/profile.d/add-x-to-path
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on September 27, 2016, 10:22:21 am
Quote
the quality went up through w2k but then started down with XP.

W2k and W2k3 are both very small and don't load the CPU much.

XP is also quite good in that regard. The downside is that the 64-bit version is hard to come by. I think for small applications, XP is the best of them all.

Win7 has a good 64-bit system that can run on large machines. It is a little bloated and drains more cpu resources. A good compromise in my view between performance / capabilities. To me, it is a good OS for most users. More overhead than XP but gives the user more optionality / upgradability as well.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: dannyf on September 27, 2016, 11:55:00 am
"I very strongly suspect there is a correlation between Microsoft laying off of testing staff and the drop in quality of their software"

I think if you ask MS workers they know precisely what caused such a downturn - just watch the mix of employees and managers and see who get promoted over the last 10 or 15 years.

But it is politically incorrect to say it outlaud.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on September 27, 2016, 05:23:29 pm
 I also suggest some people play around soem more with Powershell, using either the supplied dev environment or the free Quest PowerGUI tool.

 I have PowerShell scripts that synchronize users and  passwords between to otherwise unconnected AD domains - complex enough for you?  I've written others like the one that pulls AD attributes and converts and uploads it to a card access system (keycards for doors, etc).

 My biggest complain with Powershell is that there was no Control-C/Control-V for copy/paste. To have to take your hands off the keyboard to sue the mouse was utterly stupid, and whatever person at Microsoft who decided that should be forced to update 99K row spreadsheets all day every day but they cannot use the arrows to change to the next cell, they must click with the mouse. Luckily this is resolved in Windows 10, ctrl-c and ctrl-v are back and it makes life SO much easier.

 Only other complaint I have is just because I am a horrible typist - and the Powershell commands are just ridiculously long in many cases. Yes, there is tab complete, which helps in many cases, but still. They've carried it over to other command line items as well - prior to Exchange 2016, you could run various install tasks from the command prompt, no big deal. With 2016, when you do this, you must ALSO type out, IN FULL "-iacceptexchangeserverlicenseterms" or the setup will abort. I guess people were trying to use this as a loophole since they were not presented with the box to check as you are with the GUI setup, therefore I guess you can say you never agreed to anything.


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on September 30, 2016, 08:00:23 am
I occasionally dabble in Powershell, and it is very powerful, but frankly getting your head around it conceptually enough to be able to be reasonably proficient at writing your own scripts, particularly from scratch, is an uphill struggle.

It is very powerful, and have frankensteined some really useful scripts together myself, but I don't really know what I'm doing with it.

Biggest problem I find in a real enterprise environments is that they're generally so locked down, it's generally impossible to run centralised scripts across the estate, which is precisely where powershell should come into its own.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on September 30, 2016, 08:05:43 am
In terms of speed and code efficiency, Win10 should be faster than Win7.
The only thing I do not like is its forced update, but spying is not may major concern. As long as CEOs and gov't leaders are all using it, why the hell they want to spy on me?
Targeted marketing? Well, I do not care. I would like Google and Amazon to know exactly what I would like to buy.
Now everyday AdWorks tells me the latest devices from TI, it saved me lots of time going through newsletter to know that TI is doing.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: fubar.gr on January 26, 2017, 06:59:09 pm
Windows popped a warning that it was going to restart in 30 minutes.

The only options available were Restart Now and OK. Since I had a video rendering going on for the previous 3 hours and needed at least 2 hours more to finish, I clicked OK. I thought I could cancel the scheduled restart by typing shutdown /a in the command line.

But apparently it was a different type of scheduled restart and it was unaffected by the shutdown command!

I was frantically searching the internet for a way to cancel the restart, but to no avail!

Then I thought the Windows programming team cannot be that stupid, there will be another prompt to postpone or cancel the restart when the time expires.

Apparently they are that stupid. There was no prompt, as the 30 minute mark passed I was instantly hit with the pale blue restart screen!

W T F !!!!!

Now my rendering is gone and I have to Redo from Start. Not such a big deal, I will do it on my other computer which is much faster.

But what if this was a mission critical computer that should never be turned off? Like hospital life support system of something?

And if I understand correctly, unless you disable updates entirely, it is not possible to avoid those automatic restarts. At least Windows 7 had a 4 hour postpone button that you could keep pressing indefinitely.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: RoGeorge on January 26, 2017, 07:30:18 pm
Windows popped a warning that it was going to restart in 30 minutes.

...

Then I thought the Windows programming team cannot be that stupid, there will be another prompt to postpone or cancel the restart when the time expires.

Apparently they are that stupid. There was no prompt, as the 30 minute mark passed I was instantly hit with the pale blue restart screen!

W T F !!!!!
...

LOL man, you are so picky!
 :-DD

There are other incredible features included in the Windows 10 OS that deserves all the imaginable WTFs ever. One of them is the keylogger that is embedded in Win10. Not kidding, Microsoft put it there, just google for it.

Returning to the annoying restart problem, my workaround is to always keep the updates disabled, and enable the updates only when I decide to manually update. To do that I am running these 2 scripts as Administrator:

- Run 'Update Enable.cmd' as Administrator
- Manually update and restart after updates are installed
- After restart, run 'Update Disable.cmd' as administrator

'Update Enable.cmd' script
Code: [Select]
@echo off

whoami /groups | findstr /c:" S-1-5-32-544 " | findstr /c:" Enabled group" && goto :isadministrator
echo ERROR - nothing done. This script MUST be run as administrator.
echo.
pause
exit

:isadministrator
REM enable then start Windows Update service "wuauserv"
sc config wuauserv start=demand
sc start wuauserv
REM open Windows Update GUI
start ms-settings:windowsupdate
echo.
echo !!! To start a Windows Update, press the "Check for updates" button.
echo !!! After the update, don't forget to run "Update Disable.cmd" as administrator.
echo.
echo This window can be closed now.
pause


'Update Disable.cmd' script
Code: [Select]
@echo off

whoami /groups | findstr /c:" S-1-5-32-544 " | findstr /c:" Enabled group" && goto :isadministrator
echo ERROR - nothing done. This script MUST be run as administrator.
echo.
pause
exit

:isadministrator
REM stop then disable Windows Update service "wuauserv"
sc stop wuauserv
sc config wuauserv start=disabled
echo.
pause
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on January 26, 2017, 07:35:30 pm
 Several workable solutions in this thread:

http://superuser.com/questions/957267/how-to-disable-automatic-reboots-in-windows-10 (http://superuser.com/questions/957267/how-to-disable-automatic-reboots-in-windows-10)

The one about disabling the Reboot task in task scheduler even likely would have stopped the forced reboot that was about to happen.



Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: RoGeorge on January 26, 2017, 07:49:48 pm
Oh, I forgot to tell that is not the programmers fault at all for all the annoyances of this type.
In my opinion, it's a decision way above the programmer's heads. The programmers must obey to these kind of enforcing.

Other fact less known is how the user can not block some IP addresses because they are hardcoded inside dlls, so it's not so easy to stop Win10 calling home, or how Win10 blocks some web addresses no matter what, disregarding the user's or administrator's settings.

I also love how after each update, most of my custom settings are restored to their unwanted default state. Isn't that wonderful?
 ^-^
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: onesixright on January 26, 2017, 09:36:48 pm
Is getting??  :-DD :wtf:

It's always been utter BS. 15 years ago turned my back on it, never looked back and had a single regret.

If, in rare occasions, I need to use it, MS quickly reminds me not much has changed.  :-BROKE
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 26, 2017, 11:02:47 pm
Windows popped a warning that it was going to restart in 30 minutes.

The only options available were Restart Now and OK. Since I had a video rendering going on for the previous 3 hours and needed at least 2 hours more to finish, I clicked OK. I thought I could cancel the scheduled restart by typing shutdown /a in the command line.

But apparently it was a different type of scheduled restart and it was unaffected by the shutdown command!

I was frantically searching the internet for a way to cancel the restart, but to no avail!

Then I thought the Windows programming team cannot be that stupid, there will be another prompt to postpone or cancel the restart when the time expires.

Apparently they are that stupid. There was no prompt, as the 30 minute mark passed I was instantly hit with the pale blue restart screen!

W T F !!!!!

Now my rendering is gone and I have to Redo from Start. Not such a big deal, I will do it on my other computer which is much faster.

But what if this was a mission critical computer that should never be turned off? Like hospital life support system of something?

And if I understand correctly, unless you disable updates entirely, it is not possible to avoid those automatic restarts. At least Windows 7 had a 4 hour postpone button that you could keep pressing indefinitely.

I hate that kind of crap.  you should have control of your own computer, but yet it seems with windows 10 you don't.  I would never touch that OS with a 19 1/2 foot pole.

My workplace does the same type of crap though with 7.  You get a dialog box and have 20 minutes to restart.   It will happen completely randomly, sometimes in middle of the day, other times in middle of night. My dept is a 24/7 operation and can't afford to go down in middle of the night, but the ones who do this don't care.  It's some random IT dept in a tower somewhere down south, it's not even our own IT dept.

I have yet to figure out how to cancel one of their shutdowns as it does not use the shutdown command.   The only thing I can do is change my clock to buy more time, but if you try to do a whole shift that way you eventually lose your trust with the domain then things go south.
 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: RoGeorge on January 26, 2017, 11:30:59 pm
Is getting??  :-DD :wtf:

It's always been utter BS.

This time it's not about that.

The title should read "Windows is getting disgusting [compared to other previous Windows versions]".
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 27, 2017, 12:22:41 am
I'm forced to use Windows 10 at work and I curse it every day. It's started annoying me so much that I use my Linux box for almost everything and only use Win10 to run Outlook for my email/calendar. I absolutely despise the flat, bland UI of Win10, it looks to be like 15 year old open source stuff. It actually hurts my eyes to look at it for long, so many of the screens are a sea of white with no contrast between UI elements.

That's not even mentioning the useless gimmicky features, search function that insists on searching the web when I'm looking for files that reside on my own PC (Why??!  |O) the forced reboots that occur whether or not I'm around to give permission. I also find it extremely annoying that they call everything "apps", it reminds me of one of those weird old guys who tries to fit in with a bunch of teenagers by using their slang.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: jonovid on January 27, 2017, 12:54:43 am
we need open source windows or openwindows to go with a new open CAD app.  pull the plug on microsoft!  >:D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: switchedmodepsu on January 27, 2017, 01:08:55 am
If you absolutely LOATHE the idea of being downgraded to the abhorrent insult that is Windows 10, you may do well to try Steve Gibson's highly recommended tool, "Never10" which does what it says, in essence. Steve is VERY well known, Google "Steve Gibson GRC" or watch his show "Security Now" over at http://twit.tv (http://twit.tv)


Here's "Never10": https://www.grc.com/never10.htm (https://www.grc.com/never10.htm)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Hensingler on January 27, 2017, 01:52:33 am
Q: What is Windows 10?

A: Some software Microsoft wrote to promote linux and Macs.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on January 27, 2017, 02:06:16 am
we need open source windows or openwindows to go with a new open CAD app.  pull the plug on microsoft!  >:D

ReactOS.  But why, just switch to Linux.  Open CAD isn't the only reason to switch.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on January 27, 2017, 03:54:58 am
we need open source windows or openwindows to go with a new open CAD app.  pull the plug on microsoft!  >:D

ReactOS.  But why, just switch to Linux.  Open CAD isn't the only reason to switch.
I did try Reactos last week to see how it was going and it still is basically unusable for normal use. My Reactos Virtualbox VM must have crashed about 5 times before I had even installed any programs. Also it still only does FAT file systems - no NTFS. Reactos say it is still in Alpha, and they mean it. Left and Right clicking and Double clicking on programs does not always do anything. Single threaded.

Not really an option.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: TerraHertz on January 27, 2017, 06:13:13 am
Here's some joyous news I'm sure you'll all love.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-new-cpus-to-only-work-on-windows-10-windows-7-to-support-older-chips-499000.shtml (http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-new-cpus-to-only-work-on-windows-10-windows-7-to-support-older-chips-499000.shtml)
Microsoft: New CPUs to Only Work on Windows 10, Windows 7 to Support Older Chips
Microsoft has recently confirmed that new CPUs will only work with Windows 10, so in case you're planning to purchase a new computer in the next 12 months, you'll have to upgrade to the new operating system.
The new support policy comes into effect with Intel's new 6th-generation CPUs (codenamed Skylake) and will affect all future CPUs, the company confirmed in a statement.

You don't like Windows 10 treating you like a Microsoft asset? Too bad, Microsoft and Intel are going to force you to use it anyway. That 'not with Win7" stuff is just the usual Microsft pretense of an alternative, to hold off the enraged mobs with pitchforks and flaming torches. But it won't last long.

"Windows is getting disgusting" doesn't even come close. Whole lot of people at Microsoft and Intel deserve to be stood in front of a wall and shot, to put an end to this bullshit.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on January 27, 2017, 08:01:40 am
Isn't Microsoft just saying you'll have to upgrade if you want "support"? As in, updates won't be provided for Windows 7 on the newer CPUs after Microsoft's cutoff date.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on January 27, 2017, 10:31:32 am
Here's some joyous news I'm sure you'll all love.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-new-cpus-to-only-work-on-windows-10-windows-7-to-support-older-chips-499000.shtml (http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-new-cpus-to-only-work-on-windows-10-windows-7-to-support-older-chips-499000.shtml)
Microsoft: New CPUs to Only Work on Windows 10, Windows 7 to Support Older Chips
Microsoft has recently confirmed that new CPUs will only work with Windows 10, so in case you're planning to purchase a new computer in the next 12 months, you'll have to upgrade to the new operating system.
The new support policy comes into effect with Intel's new 6th-generation CPUs (codenamed Skylake) and will affect all future CPUs, the company confirmed in a statement.

You don't like Windows 10 treating you like a Microsoft asset? Too bad, Microsoft and Intel are going to force you to use it anyway. That 'not with Win7" stuff is just the usual Microsft pretense of an alternative, to hold off the enraged mobs with pitchforks and flaming torches. But it won't last long.

"Windows is getting disgusting" doesn't even come close. Whole lot of people at Microsoft and Intel deserve to be stood in front of a wall and shot, to put an end to this bullshit.

It sounds like Microsoft; as usual they "don't  word good". Just like in 1995 when they said "the command line was dead". Shhh... don't let the powershell people hear that.

It's not that you can't run w7 on Kabylake, they are are not going to be "optimized"  or some such thing.

http://hothardware.com/news/microsoft-to-optimize-windows-10-for-kaby-lake-and-zen (http://hothardware.com/news/microsoft-to-optimize-windows-10-for-kaby-lake-and-zen)
 

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on January 27, 2017, 10:44:07 am
...and however  horrible you think your job is , imagine being Terry Myerson, head of the OS group at Microsoft and having to speak that bullshit with a straight face in exchange for large sums of money.




Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on January 27, 2017, 02:41:24 pm
It sounds similar to the problem of installing XP on Skylake, where the Intel chipsets don't support IDE mode, and Intel isn't interested in writing drivers. Even Windows 7 can be a challenge to install on Skylake if you don't have an optical drive and PS/2 keyboard/mouse combo as Skylake dropped the EHCI USB controller, and Windows 7 doesn't support XHCI USB out of the box.

There are other methods around this such as adding third party PCIe cards which are supported by Windows 7.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Rbastler on January 27, 2017, 02:55:36 pm
I never had any problem with Win 10 on any of my PC/Laptops... I switched of all the shit I don't wanna have I can, blocked/black listed Cortana and other stuff, plus my Win 10 version doesn't even have Edge, so thats one less problem.
I experienced performance increase from Win 7 to 8.1 and then again from Win 8.1 to 10. So I have no dought about what OS I'm using.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amyk on January 27, 2017, 04:23:22 pm
Windows popped a warning that it was going to restart in 30 minutes.

The only options available were Restart Now and OK. Since I had a video rendering going on for the previous 3 hours and needed at least 2 hours more to finish, I clicked OK. I thought I could cancel the scheduled restart by typing shutdown /a in the command line.

But apparently it was a different type of scheduled restart and it was unaffected by the shutdown command!

I was frantically searching the internet for a way to cancel the restart, but to no avail!

Then I thought the Windows programming team cannot be that stupid, there will be another prompt to postpone or cancel the restart when the time expires.

Apparently they are that stupid. There was no prompt, as the 30 minute mark passed I was instantly hit with the pale blue restart screen!

W T F !!!!!

Now my rendering is gone and I have to Redo from Start. Not such a big deal, I will do it on my other computer which is much faster.

But what if this was a mission critical computer that should never be turned off? Like hospital life support system of something?

And if I understand correctly, unless you disable updates entirely, it is not possible to avoid those automatic restarts. At least Windows 7 had a 4 hour postpone button that you could keep pressing indefinitely.

I hate that kind of crap.  you should have control of your own computer, but yet it seems with windows 10 you don't.  I would never touch that OS with a 19 1/2 foot pole.

My workplace does the same type of crap though with 7.  You get a dialog box and have 20 minutes to restart.   It will happen completely randomly, sometimes in middle of the day, other times in middle of night. My dept is a 24/7 operation and can't afford to go down in middle of the night, but the ones who do this don't care.  It's some random IT dept in a tower somewhere down south, it's not even our own IT dept.

I have yet to figure out how to cancel one of their shutdowns as it does not use the shutdown command.   The only thing I can do is change my clock to buy more time, but if you try to do a whole shift that way you eventually lose your trust with the domain then things go south.
I'm not sure if this works after it's already scheduled a restart, but stopping and disabling the Windows Update service should at least stop it from automatically installing updates and thus restarting.

I certainly know what I'm going to say if I ever meet the tosser who came up with this forced restart idea...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Hensingler on January 27, 2017, 05:49:30 pm
I never had any problem with Win 10 on any of my PC/Laptops... I switched of all the shit I don't wanna have I can, blocked/black listed Cortana and other stuff, plus my Win 10 version doesn't even have Edge, so thats one less problem.

What do you call a problem if having and needing to do all that isn't one?

And what about the stuff you don't wanna have that you can't switch off and the stuff that might get switched on again by windows update?

There is a reason why Win 7 still has twice the market share of Win 10 - Microsoft can't even give it away.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Marco on January 27, 2017, 06:12:33 pm
They want to have the user datamining capability of Google combined with the relatively high security and stability of an iPhone. They're now failing at everything and have an OS with no raison d'etre. Bloody MacOS looks like the choice with more developer freedom going forward, the user experience is still a mess and Google has nothing to fear.

I wish Ubuntu&Valve would try to pull off a tight user experience and hardware certification process similar to Chromebooks. We need an OS competitor which has a closed garden only as an option for users who don't require/want more freedom, without it being a mandate and without completely destroying hardware diversity. Snapps are a good start (Intel seems to be sponsoring some advertisements for it, they always like to keep their options open).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: hans on January 27, 2017, 06:33:34 pm
Isn't Microsoft just saying you'll have to upgrade if you want "support"? As in, updates won't be provided for Windows 7 on the newer CPUs after Microsoft's cutoff date.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yXD8BpJMsI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yXD8BpJMsI)
Okay, that guy should really turn off an OC for any quantifiable testing, and his reasoning that Cinebench is a good test SW is bogus. "Support" could also mean "runs the latest CPU microcode so you aren't affected by some kind of prime bugs locking up the CPU". And as long Cinebench doesn't hit that particular bug, it won't crash.

But as demonstrated; Windows 8 boots and runs, but with random crashes you can't trust it for life.

Here's some joyous news I'm sure you'll all love.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-new-cpus-to-only-work-on-windows-10-windows-7-to-support-older-chips-499000.shtml (http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-new-cpus-to-only-work-on-windows-10-windows-7-to-support-older-chips-499000.shtml)
Microsoft: New CPUs to Only Work on Windows 10, Windows 7 to Support Older Chips
Microsoft has recently confirmed that new CPUs will only work with Windows 10, so in case you're planning to purchase a new computer in the next 12 months, you'll have to upgrade to the new operating system.
The new support policy comes into effect with Intel's new 6th-generation CPUs (codenamed Skylake) and will affect all future CPUs, the company confirmed in a statement.

You don't like Windows 10 treating you like a Microsoft asset? Too bad, Microsoft and Intel are going to force you to use it anyway. That 'not with Win7" stuff is just the usual Microsft pretense of an alternative, to hold off the enraged mobs with pitchforks and flaming torches. But it won't last long.

"Windows is getting disgusting" doesn't even come close. Whole lot of people at Microsoft and Intel deserve to be stood in front of a wall and shot, to put an end to this bullshit.
AMD Zen is likely to do the same thing I heard from rumours.

I guess Microsoft has a big influence on this. They don't want people to buy new machines and then put Windows 7 on it. They obviously want to avoid Windows XP from happening again, and so from day 1 they are trying to force Windows 10 through your throat.

I've got Windows 10 as a second boot partition on my laptop because games, and I'm always amazed by the random crap and misinformation Windows pulls off. Linux is so much more verbose in what it is doing. If an error is thrown you've got a lot more information to fix it.
If Windows was a compiler , the only compile error it would know is "0xBABEB00B your code is incorrect", while it secretly on the background tries to autofix your error (which is wrong 9/10 times), and meanwhile send information about your anomaly to Microsoft's servers for "improving our software".
Next day if you open the compiler the first thing that greets you is a subtle text advertisement on "C# tutorial on loops" because that was identified as the fix yesterday..


To be honest, big corporates are disgusting. Google, Apple and other big ad networks operate similarly in their respective domains. Each and every transaction on their server is probably saved and data mined. Due to their scale they can do this, due to many people being dependent on them they get away with it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 27, 2017, 06:54:58 pm
I never had any problem with Win 10 on any of my PC/Laptops... I switched of all the shit I don't wanna have I can, blocked/black listed Cortana and other stuff, plus my Win 10 version doesn't even have Edge, so thats one less problem.

What do you call a problem if having and needing to do all that isn't one?

And what about the stuff you don't wanna have that you can't switch off and the stuff that might get switched on again by windows update?

There is a reason why Win 7 still has twice the market share of Win 10 - Microsoft can't even give it away.

That's the thing, the way the forced updates work, even if you do manage to tweak things until they work to your satisfaction, there's a very good chance everything will get reset the next time a major update comes along. Usually that update makes some of the tweaks you had done difficult or impossible to do again. It feels like Microsoft is actively fighting the user with this OS, and I have no doubt they will turn the screws and make it even more user hostile if they ever gain enough market share to do so. They have thrown their bread and butter under the bus to chase a pipe dream.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on January 27, 2017, 08:20:15 pm
When I watched that video a day or so ago I got the impression that Jayz, bless 'im, didn't try too hard to figure much out. We never saw, for example, how many drivers were broken in device manager.

To be fair, he's interested in getting as many vids out as he can, that, together with his advertising revenue streams, are what pay the bills, but fixing stuff, not so much. With subs rapidly approaching a million, the laws of diminishing returns come in to play. He could spend three days plus fannying about figuring it out, but that's time not making revenue earning 10 minute long videos.

I do agree though, OCing your machine before you have an OS on it isn't the smartest approach no matter how many years you've been doing it.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on January 27, 2017, 08:28:36 pm
I suspect that all the "switching stuff off" and multitude of settings don't really stop Windows 10 from communicating. After all, that's what Microsoft said those things would do, and we all know how much Microsoft can be trusted. Most likely there is more going on. Steam is the same way. You can run it in "offline mode", but it's really not. If there's still an available connection it will continue to transmit and receive data.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on January 27, 2017, 08:54:30 pm
I suspect that all the "switching stuff off" and multitude of settings don't really stop Windows 10 from communicating.

You're absolutely right.  Microsoft even tells you that if you read the description on some of those settings closely.  The wording is something like, "This option will cause the computer to send additional statistics to Microsoft, if unchecked it will only send basic statistics".  There is no way to shut it completely off, you're just controlling the amount of data it sends.  And regardless of what you choose, within a few weeks/months an update will install itself and turn the option back on anyway.

Why anybody puts up with this BS is a mystery to me.  It would take less effort to install and learn how to use Linux than to figure out how to shut off all of the keyloggers and spyware built into Windows 10.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: metrologist on January 27, 2017, 09:05:22 pm
I never had any problem with Win 10 on any of my PC/Laptops... I switched of all the shit I don't wanna have I can, blocked/black listed Cortana and other stuff, plus my Win 10 version doesn't even have Edge, so thats one less problem.

What do you call a problem if having and needing to do all that isn't one?

And what about the stuff you don't wanna have that you can't switch off and the stuff that might get switched on again by windows update?

There is a reason why Win 7 still has twice the market share of Win 10 - Microsoft can't even give it away.

Alright, that is exactly what happens on my Samsung GS6 with Android. At least Windows 10 doesn't hammer me with notifications that I cannot figure out what they were or come from, and such slop as game mode and wiz piss, whatever that gimicky UI is called. :--

Just the other side of the same beast.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Rbastler on January 27, 2017, 09:11:40 pm
I suspect that all the "switching stuff off" and multitude of settings don't really stop Windows 10 from communicating.

You're absolutely right.  Microsoft even tells you that if you read the description on some of those settings closely.  The wording is something like, "This option will cause the computer to send additional statistics to Microsoft, if unchecked it will only send basic statistics".  There is no way to shut it completely off, you're just controlling the amount of data it sends.  And regardless of what you choose, within a few weeks/months an update will install itself and turn the option back on anyway.

Why anybody puts up with this BS is a mystery to me.  It would take less effort to install and learn how to use Linux than to figure out how to shut off all of the keyloggers and spyware built into Windows 10.

Linux isn't an option for me. I need AVR Studio, Visual Studio, Resolve and other programms. I rather figure out stoping windows from doing certain things, than learning how to use a entire new os, where certain programs aren't even available.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on January 27, 2017, 09:18:27 pm
Linux isn't an option for me. I need AVR Studio, Visual Studio, Resolve and other programms. I rather figure out stoping windows from doing certain things, than learning how to use a entire new os, where certain programs aren't even available.

VMs are good for that.  You don't really have to worry about the keyloggers and spying when you only boot that OS for a few hours to do one specific job and then shut it off again.  I will never run Windows on bare metal again, but I do have a few Windows VMs floating around for the odd program that needs it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Marco on January 27, 2017, 09:29:40 pm
To be honest, big corporates are disgusting. Google, Apple and other big ad networks operate similarly in their respective domains.

Apple is different, they make so much money on the hardware that they are more careful about their image with regards to privacy than the others.

Monetary incentives are the best incentive, you can trust Apple more than most. Which I find unfortunate, because a hardware monoculture in mobile&pc would be bad for technological progress. It is what it is though.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 27, 2017, 11:07:09 pm
I've never been a fan of Apple, but they did get one thing very right that Microsoft got very, very wrong. Mobile and Desktop (which includes traditional laptops) are two very different use cases. There is some small amount of overlap but for the most part people don't want mobile apps on their PC and they don't want full fledged productivity software on their mobile devices. Trying to make one platform that does both and has the same experience across devices means making huge compromises and the result is a product that tries to do everything and does nothing well.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on January 28, 2017, 12:04:19 am
Depends on how you define "got right".  I listen to guys at work having when itunes decides to move everything form their phone to the cloud.  Or the one who complains that his battery life is affected because we have a bad wifi access point so his iphone 7 keeps jumping on others even though no one else has that issue.  Seems like the iphone users have to fix something after every forced update.

I don't like Google's way of doing things but Android phones can at least be used without signing into Google so that makes them the best choice.  I sync my own data to me own cloud.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on January 28, 2017, 12:37:44 am
I don't like Google's way of doing things but Android phones can at least be used without signing into Google so that makes them the best choice.  I sync my own data to me own cloud.
So do I, and I have an iPhone.  There's no need to use iCloud with Apple, the only reason I have to sign in to Apple on my phone is for "Find My iPhone", which lets you locate the phone if it's lost or remotely wipe it if it gets stolen.  All syncing and backups are to my own computer, nothing goes to the cloud.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Hensingler on January 28, 2017, 01:02:48 am
that Microsoft got very, very wrong. Mobile and Desktop (which includes traditional laptops) are two very different use cases.

They didn't get it wrong it was (and still is) completely intentional. They abuse their near monopoly of the desktop to try to force their attempt at a mobile OS on a very large number of users.

The question was how much can they abuse their existing customers to support their effort to play catchup with apple and google and the answer turned out to be more than anyone could imagine.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 28, 2017, 01:08:25 am
Depends on how you define "got right".  I listen to guys at work having when itunes decides to move everything form their phone to the cloud.  Or the one who complains that his battery life is affected because we have a bad wifi access point so his iphone 7 keeps jumping on others even though no one else has that issue.  Seems like the iphone users have to fix something after every forced update.

I don't like Google's way of doing things but Android phones can at least be used without signing into Google so that makes them the best choice.  I sync my own data to me own cloud.

That sounds like bugs, I never said Apple software doesn't have bugs, I said that they got the paradigm right. Win10 could in some alternate universe be absolutely bug-free, and it would still be horribly broken because the design itself is broken. Melding mobile and desktop doesn't work, it's like bolting a bicycle to a car.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on January 28, 2017, 01:12:03 am
people don't want mobile apps on their PC ... Trying to make one platform that does both and has the same experience across devices means making huge compromises and the result is a product that tries to do everything and does nothing well.
What gets me is they threw that trash known as Metro on their server OSs as well!  Who in the hell wants to use an interface designed for a touch screen tablet on a SERVER!?!  It boggles the mind.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Marco on January 28, 2017, 02:14:18 am
They abuse their near monopoly of the desktop

Between the overwhelming dominance of Macbooks in laptop sales and the rise of chromebooks I'd say it's very ill advised to rely on this indefinitely.

Microsoft should never have tried to play "catch up" (you can't catch up to Apple and Google at the same time, they have two fundamentally different business models). They should have played to their own strengths.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 28, 2017, 04:00:45 am
I have not played with windows 10 much myself but I presume one way to block this stuff is to block all the outgoing connections to their servers right at your firewall.  They probably use the same IPs for updates too though so you'd lose ability to update. 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on January 28, 2017, 04:13:35 am
Between the overwhelming dominance of Macbooks in laptop sales and the rise of chromebooks I'd say it's very ill advised to rely on this indefinitely.
Not quite:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-2015-notebook-market-share/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-2015-notebook-market-share/)

Also, chromebooks are internet oriented gadgets. Their market reach is currently limited to the domestic market.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: RoGeorge on January 28, 2017, 10:08:43 am
I have not played with windows 10 much myself but I presume one way to block this stuff is to block all the outgoing connections to their servers right at your firewall.  They probably use the same IPs for updates too though so you'd lose ability to update.

That is the biggest danger/offense/problem that people is complaining about. You are no longer in control of your machine.

You set something, then your setting is ignored without warning. If you notice it doesn't work as you set it, then you spend hours debugging what is wrong, just to find out it's a new "feature", and it's in the EULA too. You agreed with EULA, so have a nice life.

E.g. https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution (https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: ovnr on January 28, 2017, 10:29:02 am
E.g. https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution (https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution)

Haha. Oh, MS, you never cease to amaze me in how user-hostile you can get.

My policy is that I'll stick with Win7 until it becomes nonviable, then move to Linux. Unless MS does a complete 180 and launches Win11 with all the fucking nonsense stripped out, which is about as likely as me winning every lottery in the world at once.

What annoys me the most isn't that MS has completely fucked up everything they've touched the last 5 or so years, it's the apologists. "Oh, but the lusers can't be trusted with that", "I'm sure they would never abuse any collected data", "But this is the future, just accept it", "Once you get used to it you'll love it", and so on. Really? Did you get Stockholm syndrome from a fucking OS upgrade, or are you just stupid?

I have no issue accepting that certain changes were needed due to your average luser fucking up their machine, but things like intentionally reverting settings and that sort of shit isn't fine. If MS made power users jump through hoops to set things (group policies, registry tweaks, etc), that'd be fine. Just respect that people don't want all your new shit and let them use their own damn computer the way they want to.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2017, 11:49:22 am
E.g. https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution (https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution)

Haha. Oh, MS, you never cease to amaze me in how user-hostile you can get.

My policy is that I'll stick with Win7 until it becomes nonviable, then move to Linux.
You are too kind; I moved to Linux when XP started to misbehave too much.
Recently it took 3 days to re-install Windows7 on my wife's laptop from a recovery partition on the harddrive. First 2 days to install, then 1 day to work on the updates and then over an hour to install the printer (HP office network printer) and USB scanner (the latter take 3 and 0 mouse clicks on Linux).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on January 28, 2017, 12:52:44 pm
E.g. https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution (https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution)

Haha. Oh, MS, you never cease to amaze me in how user-hostile you can get.

My policy is that I'll stick with Win7 until it becomes nonviable, then move to Linux.
You are too kind; I moved to Linux when XP started to misbehave too much.
Recently it took 3 days to re-install Windows7 on my wife's laptop from a recovery partition on the harddrive. First 2 days to install, then 1 day to work on the updates and then over an hour to install the printer (HP office network printer) and USB scanner (the latter take 3 and 0 mouse clicks on Linux).

MS pretty much broke Windows updates on Windows 7, so they now provide monthly (in)convenience rollup packages that you have to know about which do dramatically speed up the process. If you don't know about them, it'll take of the oreder of days to install as you discovered. Just like Linux, if you have the benefit of the right experience, many tasks can be expedited. But no OS is turnkey nowadays, they all have shitty bugs, mostly self induced by cramming in useless bloat features needlessly, unnecessarily deprecating stuff, and, particuarly for Microsoft nowadays, too little attention paid to regression testing. Apparently that's progress.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: ovnr on January 28, 2017, 01:28:43 pm
Windows updates on a fresh install: WSUS offline to the rescue. Though, it's started needing a swift kick to the arse first to get going.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on January 28, 2017, 10:57:44 pm
The last time I re-installed Windows 7, I couldn't get the updates to work because they'd changed how it works. I screwed around for a day or so and finally gave up. I meant to fix it for good at some point, but it's been like 3 months now and all is fine. Most of those updates are to fix security problems with internet explorer which I never use. That computer is only used for games and a bit of youtube anyway.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on January 28, 2017, 11:18:02 pm
The last time I re-installed Windows 7, I couldn't get the updates to work because they'd changed how it works. I screwed around for a day or so and finally gave up. I meant to fix it for good at some point, but it's been like 3 months now and all is fine. Most of those updates are to fix security problems with internet explorer which I never use. That computer is only used for games and a bit of youtube anyway.
If you go to Programs and Features, and then go into the "Turn Windows Features On or Off" (or whatever they call it in Win7), you can disable Internet Explorer.

On some dual graphics notebooks, IE10 will not install after a clean Windows7 installation and it stops all following Windows 7 updates. Disabling IE allows the Windows updates to work.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on January 29, 2017, 12:59:45 am
Ugh...IE

I remember back in 2001 or so I was cleaning up my computer and decided to uninstall IE because A: I never used it, and B: it was a piece of crap.  Windows happily removed it, and as a result basically bricked the entire OS.  Not even reinstalling it fixed the problem, I ended up having to wipe and reinstall the entire OS.  That was the moment I started seriously considering Linux.  If MS could be so arrogant that they would knowingly integrate their shitty web browser into the core of the OS to the point that removing it would brick the entire system, then that's a company I want nothing to do with.  It's only gotten worse since then...much, much worse.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Halcyon on January 29, 2017, 01:18:47 am
E.g. https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution (https://www.petri.com/windows-10-ignoring-hosts-file-specific-name-resolution)

Haha. Oh, MS, you never cease to amaze me in how user-hostile you can get.

My policy is that I'll stick with Win7 until it becomes nonviable, then move to Linux. Unless MS does a complete 180 and launches Win11 with all the fucking nonsense stripped out, which is about as likely as me winning every lottery in the world at once.

100% agree. I'm a firm believer of "why fix something that isn't broken?".

I still run Windows XP on my laptop (not my primary machine but one I use several times a week). Why? Because it's reasonably quick and does exactly what I need it to do.  My main machine is running Windows 7 and I'll continue to do so until at least the extended support period ends in 2020.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on January 29, 2017, 01:40:23 am
The last time I re-installed Windows 7, I couldn't get the updates to work because they'd changed how it works.
Now you mentioned it I recall needing to install some hotfix before the updates would work. I already purged that from my memory!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: ECEdesign on January 29, 2017, 03:27:25 am
@nctnico what flavor of Linux are you running?  I am trying to switch to debian but there are a lot of programs I need in windows and getting things to work in linux tends to be fairly finicky.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 29, 2017, 04:50:58 am
I've tried a bunch of different distros but I always seem to come back to Debian.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on January 29, 2017, 08:56:10 am
The last time I re-installed Windows 7, I couldn't get the updates to work because they'd changed how it works.
Now you mentioned it I recall needing to install some hotfix before the updates would work. I already purged that from my memory!

Best I remember, you have to turn the automatic updates off, then manually download and install one specific update. After that it will work normally. You have to inspect every update's KB number though, because there's a bunch that add a lot of the same "telemetry" as Windows 10 and need to be blocked.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on January 29, 2017, 11:03:18 am
As I mentioned earlier, you need to run the current "Convenience Rollup" for Windows 7.

MS really need to do some soul searching, the practical benefits of using Windows as opposed to other options are diminishing rapidly.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: BradC on January 29, 2017, 11:43:00 am
@nctnico what flavor of Linux are you running?  I am trying to switch to debian but there are a lot of programs I need in windows and getting things to work in linux tends to be fairly finicky.

I've been using Linux on the desktop since about 96, but I've always had at least one Windows vm for software I had no choice to use. Windows runs better under Linux than it does on the bare metal and unless you need native 3D I highly recommend it. Easy to keep firewalled, can snapshot and roll back to make cleaning up easy.. What's not to like?

I have used Debian since 96, but after the systemd fiasco during the Jessie beta leaving a number of my machines unbootable I've gravitated elsewhere. Not getting into that debate.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on January 29, 2017, 12:05:31 pm
@nctnico what flavor of Linux are you running?  I am trying to switch to debian but there are a lot of programs I need in windows and getting things to work in linux tends to be fairly finicky.
I've been using Debian exclusively for about 20 years (but until a couple of years ago mainly as a server OS). I run Windows in virtual machines using Virtualbox which works excellent. It took me a couple of years though to switch over completely and I did buy a new PC which has compatible hardware (IIRC especially an Nvidia graphics card).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on January 29, 2017, 12:35:57 pm
The last time I re-installed Windows 7, I couldn't get the updates to work because they'd changed how it works.
Now you mentioned it I recall needing to install some hotfix before the updates would work. I already purged that from my memory!

Best I remember, you have to turn the automatic updates off, then manually download and install one specific update. After that it will work normally. You have to inspect every update's KB number though, because there's a bunch that add a lot of the same "telemetry" as Windows 10 and need to be blocked.

I haven't installed the original SP0 Windows 7 for years. You should slipstream at least Service Pack 1 into the install disk, but it is possible to add more updates. Just do a search for "Windows 7 Slipstream" and you will find a number of different methods ranging from the built-in slip streaming commands to utilities that make it easier.

Better still, nowadays, I make a Windows 7 VM in Virtualbox (or whatever you use) - make sure you do not install guest extensions (drivers) for Virtualbox, do all the updates and then make a sysprep image set to the OOBE (Out Of Box Experience). Make sure you do not reboot. Get a disk image and copy it to hard drives and boot computers from the image. It takes 10 minutes imaging to a harddrive and you end up with a fully updated Windows 7 running on the new PC/notebook. You will have to install drivers.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on January 29, 2017, 02:59:46 pm
Users love Win10: https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-windows-10-forced-updates-auto-restarts-are-the-worst/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-windows-10-forced-updates-auto-restarts-are-the-worst/)

Broken by design >:D

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on January 29, 2017, 03:11:01 pm
MS decides how you will use your computer, MS puts MS first. 

I stayed on winXP as long as I could and finally moved to win7 recently.  I had a hell of a time whipping win7 into shape with third party tools and a good number of registry hacks.  It was pretty time consuming.  In reading this thread win10 sounds pretty ugly.  Don't know if I can stomach going through that again for win10.

I've been an on and off Linux user for quite a long time and I have my gripes with Linux.  If software developers would fully support Linux the decision would be easier.  It's really quite a bit of work to get a Linux system operating that way you want it to.  There are invariably programs that don't have Linux equivalents and there's no assurance of any quality.  Then there's the way in which settings are handled.  On one one hand there's the awful Windows registry and on the other you have configuration files crammed into nooks and crannies all over the system.  Two extremes and neither provides a very good solution.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on January 29, 2017, 03:40:35 pm
I thought the "convenience roll up" was to be avoided because of added telemetry. I don't know, all I wanted to do was get it reasonably updated, in a way that I could pick and choose what I wanted, then make a back up that I'd use for all future re-installs. At this point it's not high on my list of important things to do. I only use it on the one computer because of games. My OEM install disk has SP1 and everything runs fine. I just wish I could give it a separate internet connection to keep it isolated from the rest of the network.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on January 29, 2017, 04:11:14 pm
From W7 SP1 up to now there are many, many hundreds of individual underlying updates. If you want to pick and choose you're welcome to, but a convenience update won't let you do that as far as I know. As MS pretty much broke the update process to the extent where it would take days to update without the convenience updates, you're stuck.

Ironically, one of the updates in the convenience rollups includes the Customer Experience Improvement Program which is the main slurper which you can turn off, but it's not anything like the telemetry and key logging that Windows 10 takes.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on January 29, 2017, 09:55:07 pm
If I remember right, there are only about 8 or 10 updates that need to be avoided because they add similar telemetry as Windows 10. I'm pretty sure that several are included with the convenience roll up and can't be separated out, so I would stop short of that. I thought they were fixing their web site so that individual updates could be downloaded manually (it used to only work with IE), but I haven't followed the whole mess in months so I don't know. I thought the old update system was still working, but maybe that's been shut off.

What I want next is a way to isolate the Windows computer from the local network, so I may look into pfSense or something similar. I already shut down my Windows Server media storage and replaced it with a FreeNAS system. If I can do that then I won't care if Windows 7 ever gets updated.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: NiHaoMike on January 29, 2017, 11:43:06 pm
Users love Win10: https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-windows-10-forced-updates-auto-restarts-are-the-worst/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-windows-10-forced-updates-auto-restarts-are-the-worst/)

Broken by design >:D


Encourage users to call Microsoft tech support every time it happens. If nothing else, that will increase their costs.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Lightages on January 30, 2017, 12:54:58 am
I am on my last installations of Windows. I am on W7 and it won't go any further than that. If I need to do a complete reinstall in the future, it will be a flavor of Linux. No more MS for me once these machines die.

I have posted utilities earlier in this thread for those wanting to remove and avoid the W10 spying capabilities that are added to W7.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on January 30, 2017, 05:48:32 pm
I could stay at win7 indefinitely as well.  Problem is MS forces you to migrate by making their products obsolete.  They seem to have a lifecycle about 6 years or so.  Actually it's the software developers that make you move ahead.  They stop supporting their products for a particular version of Windows when MS says so.  If developers would keep supporting those older versions of Windows there would be no necessity to migrate to a newer version.  The only reason I had to migrate to win7 is because some of my programs required it.  It's the software developers that can force Microsoft's hand but they don't do it.  It's also the reason Linux is an issue for me, software developers don't always support it.  Mac suffers from that to some extent as well.  Though moving to Mac is not a great option either.  They do the same thing MS does, but with an even shorter lifecycle.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on January 30, 2017, 08:33:30 pm
 The interface in 10, 2012 R2, and 2016, if maybe you used it for more than 5 minutes so you could set up the important stuff and ditch the garbage defaults, is actually quite usable and makes a lot fo sense even when it's used with a mouse and not a touch screen. First thing I do on any server install is to set up the start menu in 2016 or the 'metro' screen on 2012 R2 to have just function-specific items listed at the top - for say a SQL server it will have SQL Management Studio, SQL Configuration, Powershell, SSDS Editor, whatever make sense. Or a domain control - AD Users and COmputers, GPO Editor, etc. All at the top/first screen, so no scrolling through tons of junk to get the program you need. It's quite clean and effective. No Windows Store or any of that crap on top.

 I have my Windows 10 machines set up the same way. Couple of groups in the start menu, one for Electronics programs like KiCad, Arduino IDE, etc, one for Office apps like Word and Excel, one for model railroad apps like the CAD I use there and JMRI. My main multipurpose desktop also has a games section with all my games.  The workbench computer has no discrete graphics card so I don;t bother with games.

 Being suitable for a touchscreen does not make it unsuitable for clicking with a mouse. Touchscreens are fine for small devices like tablets and phones, easy enough to wipe off the fingerprints but a touch screen PC? Not for me, I don't see the point. Other than my laptop, I don't sit close enough to the screen to make reaching out and fingerprinting it all the comfortable, anyway.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 30, 2017, 08:39:56 pm
The UI in 10 just looks cheap to me, and I'm forced to use it at work so I've spent quite a bit of time with it. The bright white everywhere and lack of anything separating visual elements gives me a headache. Windows 7 had a beautiful luxurious feeling interface and overall quite good consistency throughout the OS. 10 on the other hand feels like a disjointed mix of mobile-oriented design and vestiges of earlier versions of Windows. The whole UI is very bland and takes minimalism to an extreme, even Windows 3.0 made it easy to differentiate clickable controls and links from static text. It had more customization options in terms of UI colors too, in Win10 I can only pick one color to use as the highlight color.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on January 30, 2017, 08:47:42 pm
 You realize you can change the color scheme and get rid of the bright white, right? I don't think I used the default scheme in ANY Windows, even the oh so vaunted XP.  And now (as in the recent 6 months or so) bright white screens are really a problem for me, so I use a different scheme which keeps the bright white stuff to a minimum. At the very least - Personalize, Colors, Dark (insteadof the default Light). There is also an option to show the colors in title bars, so you don;t have that blank space and the whole "where to I click to drag this window" thing going on.
 What's funny is this whole 'flat' UI, which I'm not a big fan of, started with Apple and when Apple did it, everyone called it so new and refreshing and awesome. Microsoft does the same thing and "what crap!"


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 30, 2017, 09:58:34 pm
Yes I'm aware you can change that one color, to another single color. I've spent plenty of time messing around with the few customization options it has, I'm not a new computer user, I've been using Windows since 3.0 on a 286. I finally found Windowblinds from Stardock which makes it much nicer, still not as nice as Win7 but it's better. The default color scheme for XP was absolutely hideous, almost everybody set it to the windows classic scheme. Windows 2000 had a rather nice out of box experience, and 7 was pretty good too, calc, wordpad and mspaint were crap but the versions from XP or Vista work fine in 7.

I'm still irritated with Apple for screwing up iOS with that flat crap, so not "everyone" called it refreshing. In fact there was quite a substantial amount of backlash but Apple doesn't care. The difference is that Apple has a small but very fanatical group of followers who will put up with almost anything. Microsoft for the most part does not. Very few people are fanatical about Microsoft, we just use it because so much software is written for it. In my case I kept my iphone because the other option, Android also has a flat crappy UI so I have little option there.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on January 31, 2017, 01:39:07 am
Though moving to Mac is not a great option either.  They do the same thing MS does, but with an even shorter lifecycle.

Not really true, I'm typing this on a desktop running OS X 10.6.8 (introduced Aug 2009) which got its last update in September 2014 and it's only just now that I'm beginning to run into problems with applications not getting updates that they probably need (Only actually 1 so far, Firefox). That's an introduction about the same time as Windows 7 which left mainstream support in Jan 2015; so the actual practical effects on the ground are pretty much similar.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on January 31, 2017, 03:40:48 pm
 Sometimes I think it would be better if using a computer and the internet was hard, like it was 20 years ago.

 It's really because of the general lack of competence that MS and others have gone to such extremes to make sure people use up to date software - the biggest security hole next to social engineering stuff is unpatched software. I and many others here are quite capable of keeping our systems up to date without any forced stuff, but consider the general population of computer users - the people who are lucky to know even where the power switch is. And the equally incompetent "professionals" who give my profession a bad name who also fail to ever update systems. Most of those have passed lots of certification tests, too. Which is why I refuse to do it, I don't want to be associated with such people.

 Personal case - years ago, when everyone's IIS based web site got taken over and replaced with "Hacked by Chinese" and also there was a SQL Server issue around the same time - maybe the Slammer worm. At that time I still ran all sorts of servers at home, including a web server and database server. The vulnerability that allowed the IIS hack had been patched for nearly a YEAR by the time the attac actually happened - I watched my logs get hot after hit trying to infect my server to no avail because mine was patched. Same with my SQL Server, that vulnerability too was patched long before the outbreak - some simple patching and it would have been a nothing event, instead all these servers all over the world got hit with this crap.

 So, if the end user won't bother to figure out how to keep their systems up to date - who will? Even if my systems don't get compromised, massive attacks still affect me. So, all defaults are now the heck with it, install the patches and consequences be damned.

 Microsoft sucks because there are security problems. Mostly caused by unpatched operating systems. Microsoft more or less forces the OS to be patches, Microsoft still sucks. Make up your minds.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on January 31, 2017, 04:29:05 pm
The forced updates are not really about security, that's just smoke & mirrors. The real goal is to give them control, software doesn't wear out and the more mature these products become, the harder it is for companies to introduce compelling new features that will get people to go out and buy new versions. Microsoft is trying to slowly nudge everyone over to their walled garden and subscription services and the strategy is to get everyone onto an operating system that they have control of, then they can gradually keep adding new ways to monetize the OS and promote their own products and services. Gradually degrade the "legacy" software experience in a futile attempt to push people over to their UWP apps. If they really were concerned about security they would force out security updates only but MS is desperate, they themselves were spreading FUD about their own older but still-supported products. They didn't give Win10 away for free out of the goodness of their hearts, it's a trojan horse to sneak their SAAS wares into your life.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Monkeh on January 31, 2017, 04:45:36 pm
Microsoft sucks because there are security problems. Mostly caused by unpatched operating systems. Microsoft more or less forces the OS to be patches, Microsoft still sucks. Make up your minds.

Security issues aren't the only reason they suck.

I did a nice, fresh install of 7 on a new SSD the other day, went to copy everything off the old one so I could format it. Oh, look, explorer.. locks up copying a file. Not because there's something wrong with the file, or the SSD, or the filesystem, but because there's something wrong with explorer. It's a simple enough task, but it can't handle it.

Clone drive into proper system, mount filesystem, proceed to copy files over the network. Slower, but somehow it doesn't choke on that! ... it does, however, suddenly choke because some of the files, once you add a whole seven characters to the path for my copy destination, exceed the 260 character path limit ::)

Which century are we in again?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on January 31, 2017, 05:21:25 pm
Its more about poor design.  The updates should be able to be applied without restarting the system.  We should be able to completely remove un-necessary software therefore negating the need to patch it.  But we can't remove the crap thats forced with the OS and we have to patch it and the os needs restarted completely to patch it.

If the Os were modular so that we could remove the components we don't want or patch and just reload the components we do want then it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: gnif on February 01, 2017, 03:55:30 am
"Windows is getting disgusting"??

I think you meant

"Windows is getting more disgusting"
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 01, 2017, 11:29:49 am
For me personally Win10 crossed the red line. And it might be illegal for companies to run Win10 in Germany, because the data collection violates two laws protecting employees and customers. There are discussions about that in different organizations at the moment. We take this very seriously, especially in case of privacy sensitive industries like health care.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: cde on February 01, 2017, 09:08:58 pm
For me personally Win10 crossed the red line. And it might be illegal for companies to run Win10 in Germany, because the data collection violates two laws protecting employees and customers. There are discussions about that in different organizations at the moment. We take this very seriously, especially in case of privacy sensitive industries like health care.

I feel the same. However I need Windows 10 for various tasks, so let me share what I found to limit to a maximum what is sent to the network:

- install the Enterprise LTSB version. The LTSB removes a lot of cruft: Cortana, the Store, a lot of bundled apps (such as Skype, ...).

This version is available from MSDN. You will need to activate it with your company's KMS server. Note the trial version Microsoft offers can't be activated directely with your company's KMS (you need the VL version instead).

- disable telemetry:

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection]
"AllowTelemetry"=dword:00000000

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DiagTrack]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\dmwappushservice]
"Start"=dword:00000004

- disable Cortana (required on non-LTSB versions):

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Windows Search]
"AllowCortana"=dword:00000000

- disable OneDrive: run as admin

Code: [Select]
taskkill /f /im OneDrive.exe
C:\Windows\SysWOW64\OneDriveSetup.exe /uninstall

And to remove it from the Explorer:

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{018D5C66-4533-4307-9B53-224DE2ED1FE6}]
"System.IsPinnedToNameSpaceTree"=dword:00000000

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\WOW6432Node\CLSID\{018D5C66-4533-4307-9B53-224DE2ED1FE6}]
"System.IsPinnedToNameSpaceTree"=dword:00000000

- block login.live.com by adding the following line to C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts:

Code: [Select]
127.0.0.1 login.live.com
This is unfortunately the only way I found to block those connections.

- disable Network Location Awareness (queries to www.msftncsi.com (http://www.msftncsi.com)):

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NlaSvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

Note the Windows 7 "EnableActiveProbing" registry key seems to no longer work...

- disable the Delivery Optimization service (queries to geo-prod.do.dsp.mp.microsoft.com):

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DoSvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

This service is only required for peer to peer sharing of updates.

- disable the font caching service (queries to fs.microsoft.com):

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\FontCache]
"Start"=dword:00000004

- optionally disable Windows Defender (or keep it if you need an anti-virus):

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows Defender]
"DisableAntiSpyware"=dword:00000001

- replace time.windows.com with your favourite NTP server:

Code: [Select]
[-HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]
@="0"
"0"="1.pool.ntp.org"

- optionally disable Windows Update if you prefer to install updates manually and retain control of your computer:

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
"DisableWindowsUpdateAccess"=dword:00000001
"DoNotConnectToWindowsUpdateInternetLocations"=dword:00000001

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\BITS]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\wuauserv]
"Start"=dword:00000004

- setup a GPO to block Internet from certain Windows components:

Run gpedit.msc, go to Computer Configuration => Administrative Templates => System => Internet Communication Management => Restrict Internet communication, set it to Enabled.

However under "Internet Communication Settings" you may want to keep "Turn off Automatic Root Certificate Update" Disabled so that Windows can update its root certificates. Similarly if you need Windows Update, make sure to set "Turn off access to all Windows Update features" to Disabled.

Also you may have to manually set "Turn off access to the Store" to Enabled, as this setting seems unaffected by the global "Restrict Internet communication" setting above.

- optionally disable SmartScreen (however like Windows Defender, it can be useful):

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer]
"SmartScreenEnabled"="Off"

- disable the useless lock screen (not privacy-related):

Code: [Select]
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Personalization]
"NoLockScreen"=dword:00000001

I should also make a post at how to configure Firefox to have a good level of privacy. There are a surprisingly large number of parameters that must be tweaked.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: cde on February 01, 2017, 09:28:48 pm
MS pretty much broke Windows updates on Windows 7, so they now provide monthly (in)convenience rollup packages that you have to know about which do dramatically speed up the process. If you don't know about them, it'll take of the oreder of days to install as you discovered.

I looked into this for a collegue, and it boils down to installing KB3020369 then KB3172605 before hitting Windows Update, then all updates can be installed in less than an hour (faster if you install KB3125574 beforehand). Others have reported success with KB3102810 too. Also for some weird reason, you need at least two logical CPUs (in particular if you use Windows 7 in a VM) otherwise the service will hang.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 02, 2017, 07:04:34 pm
Well despite the negative tone of this thread, I have some reasonably good news. I switched off the auto update by disabling the service a few days ago, and many annoyances, particularly when coming out of sleep, have disappeared.

These include, but are not limited to, (a) increasingly I'd find that the machine was non-responsive and would not come out of sleep needing a cold reboot; (b) windows were re-sized while in sleep; (c) my incremental backups sometimes stopped working incrementally and went to full backups.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 02, 2017, 07:52:58 pm
First thing everybody, who has issues with Windows 10, should disable is Fast Boot. Next thing is disabling Delivery Optimization completely in services. There is a lot of tweaks that can be made to Windows, but I don't recommend anyone doing those tweaks unless you know how Windows works internally and know how to use PowerShell properly.

Those who are worried about privacy, like some medical institutions etc, disconnect the internet plug as those devices should not be internet connected in the first place if privacy is such an issue. For all the other problems like Windows update, if it's an issue, then the computer should be connected to a domain that has group policy configured and owns it's own update server.

I have been an Windows Insider since they started the program, and only twice have I had such issues that I had to clean install the whole system. That is tens if not even hundreds of new builds (lost the count a long time ago) I have tested and kept together by some temporary registry tweaks. :-)

Windows 10 is actually quite good after you know how to work around the minor quirks it may have. I would not switch back to 7 or 8.1 anymore.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 02, 2017, 09:13:33 pm
But we should not have to take all these steps.  Microsoft has had many years and many versions, had lad lots of paid developers, lots of paid testers, etc and yet it still can't resume reliably, has a huge security hole thinly designed as a web browser, requires constant tinkering and maintenance, etc.  I can go download a free OS put together be a small group in their spare time that can do everything windows can without all these issues.
I shouldn't have to unplug my network if I want privacy, the OS shouldn't be trying to invade it.  I shouldn't need a forced reboot while trying to work to apply patches, decouple the programs from the OS so they can be patched without the need for OS downtime. 
Microsoft have been going the wrong direction ever since XP and shows no willingness to change.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 02, 2017, 11:58:08 pm
I shouldn't need a forced reboot while trying to work to apply patches, decouple the programs from the OS so they can be patched without the need for OS downtime. 

A couple of weeks back I upgraded my main server from Debian 7 to Debian 8 - that's the equivalent of upgrading Windows through a whole version - say 8.1 to 10. This is a machine running DNS, mail, asterisk VOIP, postgresql, a web server, NTP, a media server, three different flavours of file server (SMB, NFS and AFP), radius, a VPN, a firewall, acting as a router, a logging server for other machines and a bunch of other minor things.

I ran a live upgrade that started with all the services running and ended with all the services upgraded and running; all the services stayed available during the upgrade and only were individually offline momentarily as the old versions were stopped and the new versions started. It got a manual reboot at the end to load a new kernel but that wasn't a strictly necessary step. Moreover, this upgrade involved fundamental changes to how the OS stops and starts services (from SysV init to systemd) and it went without a hitch.

As to patches, those happen magically overnight and everything just keeps running. I've been running the unattended patches for a few years now and nothing, literally nothing, has stopped working because of a patch. If I read somewhere about a new vulnerability in anything that's on the system, I usually get the automatic email to tell me that the patch has been installed the same or the next day.

This is a free operating system, largely produced by unpaid volunteers that doesn't leak any information about me to its makers and just keeps smoothly working. If the 'amateurs' can do this, how crap must Microsoft be to produce an OS like Windows 10 with the billions they have available to pay for doing it?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 03, 2017, 12:16:11 am
Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight. It was a different place back then but by the time I left I was starting to see things heading toward their current trajectory. There is a huge amount of corporate politics that go on inside. Constant re-orgs are a way of life, you might show up for work one day and find that you now report to a different manager and that could happen twice or more in a year in some groups. Multiple groups do their own thing and often the right hand doesn't really talk to the left, and if it does it only takes a reorg to turn something around 180 degrees. The infamous stack ranking system created a culture of tribal knowledge, information hoarding and undermining of those you should instead be collaborating with. In many cases finding a fall guy became more important than doing exemplary work. That system is gone in theory but cultural changes happen slowly.

Furthermore as a public company producing products to be sold for money, there is a constant drive to release new versions, and new versions must offer something to convince the user that they are in fact new. For a while that was easy, technology was growing at a rapid pace and there were always new features and capabilities that could be added but at some point software reached the point where most of the features were mature and new versions became mostly a matter of shuffling things around and giving it a fresh look. They could spend the time to refine something and fix thousands of bugs, but if it still looks the same and offers the same features, few people will buy it so instead they add gimmicks and change the look. The open source products don't have this issue, since they are not produced as a source of income it's not necessary to make arbitrary changes in order to drive the upgrade cycle and effort can instead be spent on bug fixes and refinements. The open source stuff is not perfect though, I always run into something where I have to spend hours searching online for a solution, or I find there are 15 different ways to do something and some of them don't play nice together.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: RoGeorge on February 03, 2017, 07:45:06 am
Having worked at Microsoft ...
Very interesting insights, thank you!
Totally makes sense, and that is why users should never blame the programmers for what they don't like at Windows.

This [*nix] is a free operating system, largely produced by unpaid volunteers ...
If the 'amateurs' can do this, ...
I have a slightly different view here. You just mentioned Systemd. It's made mostly by paid professional programmers from RedHat. Let me give a few more examples: OpenOffice == Oracle, Eclipse == Intel, and so on. Also, many companies that use open software for their products are contributing back to the open community adding new features, patches and so on. And they are not doing this just because of good will.

People that are writing open software might be 'amateurs', 'unpaid', 'volunteers' but many of them are in fact the exact opposite.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on February 03, 2017, 04:53:39 pm
Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight.

That's pretty much no surprise about how business carries on there.  I've seen that kind of thing happen in other corporate cultures I've been involved in, not so much to that extent though.

Microsoft is first and foremost in business to make money.  To do that they need to sell copies and if there's nothing to motivate people to run the latest software they have to come up with a reason.  Either that or force customers to buy the latest version sooner than later.  They seem to be going to the force method.  They are rather desperate.  The desktop computer market has been in a nose dive as people opt for tablet computers and phones.  They don't have nearly the presence in that market they do in the desktop and server market.

It does seem pretty amazing with all their resources they can't make a product that is significantly better than any alternative.  To quote Bill Gates, “If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.”  Seems to be kind of a philosophy over there.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 03, 2017, 04:59:15 pm
It is a myth though that the traditional desktop/laptop PC is going away, unfortunately Microsoft has bought into that myth. Yes, PC sales have plummeted and yes people are still buying lots of tablets but the reason is not the demise of the PC. The reason is that the PC market is saturated and it's a mature product. Everyone already has a PC, or two or three, few have a need to upgrade with any regularity anymore, a 5 or even 10 year old PC will still do everything most people need and that would have been unheard of 20 years ago. Mobile devices are still evolving rapidly although that market too is becoming saturated. There are a lot of people who never really made good use of a PC in the first place, it was just the only way to get online and use email and such, those people's needs are now met by mobile devices but the core PC users are still there, and the PC is still king for productivity and content creation.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 03, 2017, 05:37:30 pm
I have a slightly different view here. You just mentioned Systemd. It's made mostly by paid professional programmers from RedHat. Let me give a few more examples: OpenOffice == Oracle, Eclipse == Intel, and so on. Also, many companies that use open software for their products are contributing back to the open community adding new features, patches and so on. And they are not doing this just because of good will.

People that are writing open software might be 'amateurs', 'unpaid', 'volunteers' but many of them are in fact the exact opposite.

That is why I said "largely", because there are some aspects that directly or indirectly have some real funding. But for every example you quote I could quote a counter example that has never had a commercial backer. Remember, it required a lot of unpaid work to get the Linux/BSD/etc ecosystems to the point where there was enough there for commercial interests to see some logic in using and contributing to it all.

But that's not the real point, the real point is that it now works better than Windows 99% of the time for a fraction of the cost, including all the commercial contributions that have been made over time and it's being produced by people that want a useful, working ecosystem, not a way to squeeze every penny out of end users by spying on them and resetting privacy settings without permission at every update.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 04, 2017, 01:02:59 am
Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight.

That's pretty much no surprise about how business carries on there.  I've seen that kind of thing happen in other corporate cultures I've been involved in, not so much to that extent though.

Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 04, 2017, 01:20:10 am
Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.

The thing that gets me almost everywhere I've worked is that they're so worried about pinching pennies and cutting costs, but then one group will be throwing out parts or equipment while another group is buying more of the same stuff that's being thrown out. I've been known to scavenge from the e-waste bins and keep a collection of random stuff so I'm usually the guy people go to when they need a specific cable, adapter, tool or bit of hardware. They could save a huge amount of money if they just talked to one another and kept closer tabs on what's being thrown away and what's being purchased. It's ridiculous to clean up and throw something out then buy another one a few weeks later when someone needs it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 04, 2017, 01:33:12 am
Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.

The thing that gets me almost everywhere I've worked is that they're so worried about pinching pennies and cutting costs, but then one group will be throwing out parts of equipment while another group is buying more of the same stuff that's being thrown out. I've been known to scavenge from the e-waste bins and keep a collection of random stuff so I'm usually the guy people go to when they need a specific cable, adapter, tool or bit of hardware. They could save a huge amount of money if they just talked to one another and kept closer tabs on what's being thrown away and what's being purchased. It's ridiculous to clean up and throw something out then buy another one a few weeks later when someone needs it.


Yeah that stuff pisses me off and they usually have some piss poor excuse as to why they operate that way.  Sometimes not their fault but sometimes it is.  Lots of red tape and liability BS in the business world that can cause lot of waste.    Sometimes they also do something to save money short term but it will cost more long term.  Seems companies and governments have zero concept of long term financial planing.  Then you have execs traveling on private jets like it's no big deal, but they won't buy a department equipment that they need.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on February 04, 2017, 11:42:03 am
I use Linux and Windows 8.1.

I have never understood the complaints about 8.1 - when properly configured so you don't use Metro ( only use 1 Metro window - the apps window), I think it is better then Windows 7. There is not one W7 feature I am missing, and for me W8.1 has been totally solid. Most of the time, using it is the same as W7, except running programs from the start button is different and faster then W7.

The big problem is the Microsoft monitoring/spyware additions but to cure that are partly in updated W7 and to a bigger extent in W8.1.  I am trying Ancile that is a fork of the no-longer developed Aegis script.

https://bitbucket.org/matthewlinton/ancile/  (Windows 7 and 8.x only - not Windows 10)

It disables and uninstalls a lot of the unwanted features, and they seem to have really thought it through. Things like changing the timeservers, so that Microsoft cannot log you that way, and adding 248 Microsoft domains in the hosts file which are all redirected to 0.0.0.0. Solutions like this are really only for people who understand what is going on in Ancile, but it looks like a pretty major disconnection. I did a Windows update and it still worked, but the removed updates have not tried to re-appear yet. So far, Windows is behaving like the spyware updates have vanished for good, but we will see what happens when i have to do a cumulative update. Probably have to get the latest Ancile and run it again.

If it does work in the long term, it means I have another 6 years of safe Windows use. I did the free upgrade to Windows 10 on most of my PC's using a sysprep Win10 installation on a temporary disk before the end of the first year, but I haven't permanently upgraded any hardware to W10.

The only W10 I have is an activated Virtualbox VM. By the way, when you clone an activated Windows VM in Virtualbox, the clone is  un-activated, but it is not hard to set all clones to be activated. I can dig up the details if anyone wants to know.

Richard.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 04, 2017, 04:17:41 pm
It still takes time to research and find those fixes and apply them when we shouldn't have to.  That takes tie away from things I want to do.

My son , on windows 10, wrote some code to his arduino, walked downstairs to show me then walked back up stairs and now the Arduino software doesn't have permissions to use some file in \program files.  When would Windows make a change at random like that?  Now I have to waste both of our time to fix another silly windows issue that shouldn't be necessary,  Imagine if we were a production shop and my employee can't program his microcontroller due to another windows issue, how much $ is lost.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on February 04, 2017, 04:55:07 pm
The reason is that the PC market is saturated and it's a mature product. Everyone already has a PC, or two or three, few have a need to upgrade with any regularity anymore, a 5 or even 10 year old PC will still do everything most people need and that would have been unheard of 20 years ago.

Yes that's a big part of it.  I have several desktop PCs and haven't changed the base hardware on them for a good number of years.  Though I've done some smaller upgrades like switching to SSDs, the motherboards and processors have not been touched for quite some time.  Honestly the machines do all I ask of them with plenty of speed, there's really no issue there.  Granted I'm not doing professional development, but I do run an array of fairly demanding engineering software.  So yeah, you don't need to be running out to buy a new desktop PC every couple three years, it's just not necessary.  On the other hand, people replace phones and tablets at the breakneck pace you used to see with PCs years ago.

I don't see myself abandoning the desktop PC any time soon, as mentioned it's where the real work gets done.  Unfortunately Microsoft thinks everyone's PC should look like a tablet or phone, hence the windows 8.0 disaster with the lack of a start menu.  We get that "cow goes moo" desktop appearance with the latest versions of Windows because of that.  Not just Windows though, it seems every user interface for every device is trying to emulate that touchscreen look now.  It's fine for a phone or other touchscreen device, but really sucks on a desktop computer or any other device that lacks a touchscreen.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 04, 2017, 05:08:55 pm
And websites that have 'the ipad look'.

My son wants 10 on his laptop, since it needs reinstalled anyway, it did updates and rebooted and died.  I went to microsoft's site and entered the license key and it let me download the iso.  Burned it and it boots and starts the install then says the license key is invalid.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 04, 2017, 06:14:20 pm
Much of the reason people replace phones so often is that we carry them around in our pocket everywhere we go and they get dropped/sat on and broken. I'm on my second mobile phone in 10 years so I'm obviously an anomaly but I've always treated my phone as the expensive pocket computer that it is and take good care of it. That said, smartphone and tablet sales are slowing drastically, I think they are about a decade behind PCs in that curve, although they will never be quite as long lasting as a PC due to the breakage issue. 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 06, 2017, 08:57:44 am
And websites that have 'the ipad look'.

My son wants 10 on his laptop, since it needs reinstalled anyway, it did updates and rebooted and died.  I went to microsoft's site and entered the license key and it let me download the iso.  Burned it and it boots and starts the install then says the license key is invalid.

What site have you been on? Microsoft does not require you to give away any license keys just because you want to download the ISO image. You simply just go and grab the ISO.

Where did you purchase the license from?

If you bought an upgrade license then you can not enter it in the box where Windows asks for a key when you do a clean install. You can simply skip this step and enter the key later, once Windows is installed.


EDIT: It seems MS has changed this once again. You need to download the Media Creation Tool then you can download the ISO. Either way, you can not use the Upgrade key while you are clean installing Windows 10, you need to provide the key at a later time, once it's time to activate Windows.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 06, 2017, 10:37:30 am
What site have you been on? Microsoft does not require you to give away any license keys just because you want to download the ISO image. You simply just go and grab the ISO.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows7 (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows7) clearly asks for the product key. No valid key, no ISO.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 06, 2017, 01:39:54 pm
Yes I noticed they have once again changed how all this works.

You can however download the Windows Media Creation Tool, which does download the data required for you and then it converts that data into a bootable ISO image file or an USB stick. Not sure if you can get Windows 7 this way though...I only get the Windows 10 version if I run the tool on my Windows 10 box.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: blueskull on February 06, 2017, 06:00:47 pm
And websites that have 'the ipad look'.

My son wants 10 on his laptop, since it needs reinstalled anyway, it did updates and rebooted and died.  I went to microsoft's site and entered the license key and it let me download the iso.  Burned it and it boots and starts the install then says the license key is invalid.

Keys come with laptops are usually abused to be installed on unauthorized computers, hence may fail activation.
You need to call MS support center, and activate over phone. My MSI's pre-installed Win10 is f*ed, but after a call to MS telephone activation service, I can activate Windows without any trouble.
Also, you can pay $99 to buy a pro upgrading key, that way, the key will be exclusive to you and in the future, there will be no longer failed Internet activation anymore.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 06, 2017, 07:07:19 pm
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on February 06, 2017, 07:19:31 pm
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.
I believe you can only install straight to 10 if you had previously upgraded to it.  Since you were running 7 before, I'm pretty sure you'll need to install 7 and then upgrade to 10.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 06, 2017, 10:56:45 pm
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.
I believe you can only install straight to 10 if you had previously upgraded to it.  Since you were running 7 before, I'm pretty sure you'll need to install 7 and then upgrade to 10.

Yes this is the only way (well there is another way, but it's a bit involved) to upgrade from OEM Windows. First upgrade 7 to 10, then make sure your 10 gets activated. Once activated you can Wipe the computer clean and just clean install 10 without any key. It will get activated automatically because your hardware has gotten a digital licence.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Circlotron on February 07, 2017, 05:48:07 am
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: switchedmodepsu on February 07, 2017, 06:09:48 am
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.
I believe you can only install straight to 10 if you had previously upgraded to it.  Since you were running 7 before, I'm pretty sure you'll need to install 7 and then upgrade to 10.

Nope, untrue. He can Google it and find out evidence to the contrary. You can validate the install of 10 with a 7 COA, so long as it was validated before the "free Windows 10" offer expired.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: switchedmodepsu on February 07, 2017, 06:11:35 am
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.

Linux isn't hard, Windows isn't hard, nor is Mac OS X.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Circlotron on February 07, 2017, 08:48:10 am
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.

Linux isn't hard, Windows isn't hard, nor is Mac OS X.
Try installing Gentoo Linux using the skills of an average Windows user, then get back to me. ;-)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Sigmoid on February 07, 2017, 01:09:34 pm
Honestly, this bashing has been going on ever since Windows 95. MS does make blunders time to time, but ultimately, so far I mostly like Win10 - it's a clear improvement over 8.1. I'm sure you can hack 8.1 into something usable, but it doesn't start out that way, while Win10 only needs some decluttering and basic security hardening (unless you're up against a three-letter agency, I'd say built-in tools such as gpedit are fine for that, and if you ARE, use Linux OpenBSD instead).

The moment 8.1 buried itself in my eyes was when I saw they have a "Control Panel" AND a "Settings", with settings randomly distributed between the two. How lazy and shite can you be as a UX engineer to do this? And sure, Windows has a history of hiding "advanced" settings in apps you mostly need to call up via command line (like the aforementioned gpedit), but not basic settings like this...

Also, the weird mouse gestures and the "start page", nope thanks.
(And the fact that it included clearly untested drivers for old Intel integrated network controllers, so that the thing went BSOD every 15 minutes on my somewhat dated Lenovo Thinkpad.)

Yes Linux is probably becoming more and more of a valid solution for workstations, but hardware support is still often an issue. The hardhat ideological approach of the Kernel team to hardware drivers really doesn't help a whole lot - sure it would be best if all hardware would be based on open interfaces, but it often isn't - and what we get is weird hacks to include proprietary code by circumventing GPL, and half-baked drivers.

As for Ubuntu desktop, while I like how Ubuntu Server feels, the few times I tried Desktop always turned me off of it - bugs, weird shit happening all over the place, plus the integrated spyware cloud capability, fuck that shit, if I want that I'll install Windows.

So for now my main workhorse is a Mac, and I'm playing around with Windows on the side to "keep up"... :) But with Win10, I no longer have too big problems with getting a PC as a core machine in the future - I like Mac OS better, but Apple has really dropped the soap on the hardware front. What's with that shit keyboard, it's up to par with the rubber chiclet on old Spectrums in terms of crappiness.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: switchedmodepsu on February 07, 2017, 03:12:22 pm
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.

Linux isn't hard, Windows isn't hard, nor is Mac OS X.
Try installing Gentoo Linux using the skills of an average Windows user, then get back to me. ;-)

I'm glad you feel special and "elite". Which of us has knowledge that we weren't taught or didn't have to learn? I can install any Linux distro you care to name as a long term command line user since 2004, and I'm sure many other people could too. There's no such thing as the "average Windows user" except as a fabrication in the mind which people use to artificially elevate their "skills" so as to bolster their weak sense of self-worth, so they appear to be a "guru" in the eyes of those they allow to believe this myth.

Linux commands are just typing, some maths, knowing one's way around the node based filesystem where "everything is a file", and memory, not many can't achieve that.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 07, 2017, 04:41:19 pm
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.

Linux isn't hard, Windows isn't hard, nor is Mac OS X.
Try installing Gentoo Linux using the skills of an average Windows user, then get back to me. ;-)

I'm glad you feel special and "elite". Which of us has knowledge that we weren't taught or didn't have to learn? I can install any Linux distro you care to name as a long term command line user since 2004, and I'm sure many other people could too. There's no such thing as the "average Windows user" except as a fabrication in the mind which people use to artificially elevate their "skills" so as to bolster their weak sense of self-worth, so they appear to be a "guru" in the eyes of those they allow to believe this myth.

Linux commands are just typing, some maths, knowing one's way around the node based filesystem where "everything is a file", and memory, not many can't achieve that.

Gentoo is a bit of a special case since you have to build it all from scratch and set up *everything* manually. That's not really a fair comparison though, Gentoo does not represent Linux as a whole, and to use it as an example of Linux being difficult doesn't really make sense, it's for people who like to do things the hard way, like building a car from scratch out of junkyard parts.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on February 07, 2017, 04:59:15 pm
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.
Linux isn't hard, Windows isn't hard, nor is Mac OS X.
In the end you have to know how to use/configure something and if you only know one OS then configuring something in a different OS is hard because you don't know it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 07, 2017, 06:16:57 pm
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.
I believe you can only install straight to 10 if you had previously upgraded to it.  Since you were running 7 before, I'm pretty sure you'll need to install 7 and then upgrade to 10.

Nope, untrue. He can Google it and find out evidence to the contrary. You can validate the install of 10 with a 7 COA, so long as it was validated before the "free Windows 10" offer expired.
The "free" offer has officially ended, but the feature is still active, just upgrade/clean install and activate with Windows 7 Key, once you can access Windows 10 desktop. It should still work. But please don't try an OEM VL key, it won't work even if it's the sticker slapped somewhere in the bottom of your laptop. That is a Volume licence key and can't be used for anything useful when doing automated activations.

Anyone who has a Activated Windows 7, 8.0 or 8.1 and want to clean install straight before having gotten the digital license, can do so by running a tool on the Win7 computer that generates an XML-file, which you can then copy to a backup location and once Win10 is installed you can copy that file to a specific location and reboot. AND VOILA, Win10 is activated even though you did not go through the Upgrade-->Activation process before clean installing Win10 for automated activation.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Hensingler on February 07, 2017, 07:26:25 pm
Honestly, this bashing has been going on ever since Windows 95.

Not even close. No one had any problem ignoring and skipping over ME or vista, or ignoring 8. The extreme crappiness of windows 10 is supposed to be the future.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 07, 2017, 08:04:45 pm
Honestly, this bashing has been going on ever since Windows 95.

Not even close. No one had any problem ignoring and skipping over ME or vista, or ignoring 8. The extreme crappiness of windows 10 is supposed to be the future.

Past versions were normally either a matter of getting used to minor UI changes or contemporary hardware not being powerful enough to adequately run the new OS. The latter is not an issue anymore, even low end PCs are way more powerful than the average user needs. Win8-10 is a major regression in the UI and the forced updates mean they can change it in any way they like, at any time, for any reason, and they have made it as difficult as possible for users to opt out or roll back.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: gnif on February 08, 2017, 01:09:51 am
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.

Linux isn't hard, Windows isn't hard, nor is Mac OS X.
Try installing Gentoo Linux using the skills of an average Windows user, then get back to me. ;-)

I'm glad you feel special and "elite". Which of us has knowledge that we weren't taught or didn't have to learn? I can install any Linux distro you care to name as a long term command line user since 2004, and I'm sure many other people could too. There's no such thing as the "average Windows user" except as a fabrication in the mind which people use to artificially elevate their "skills" so as to bolster their weak sense of self-worth, so they appear to be a "guru" in the eyes of those they allow to believe this myth.

Linux commands are just typing, some maths, knowing one's way around the node based filesystem where "everything is a file", and memory, not many can't achieve that.

What a shame your information is inaccurate, outdated, and insecure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jic_kHDll0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jic_kHDll0)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 08, 2017, 01:54:22 am
Gentoo is not that hard.  Real me run Slackware  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Monkeh on February 08, 2017, 01:58:43 am
Gentoo is not that hard.  Real me run Slackware  :popcorn:

LFS. Slack's just a time waste these days. All the pain, none of the gain.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: anfang on February 08, 2017, 02:04:06 am
Don't let Torvalds see you talking trash on his binaries, he'll whoop your ass with his pasty Finnish fists.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 08, 2017, 02:08:56 am
Slackware's BDFL is Pat not Linus :)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: anfang on February 08, 2017, 02:10:18 am
Slackware's BDFL is Pat not Linus :)

Who is Pat - Patrick?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 08, 2017, 02:38:59 am
Yes, Linux is 'just the kernel'  Patrick is the BDFL for Slackware.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: anfang on February 08, 2017, 02:43:49 am
Yes, Linux is 'just the kernel'  Patrick is the BDFL for Slackware.

I know who Linus is and what the kernel is, and that ONLY the kernel is Linux, I asked who "Pat" is? Sounds dubious.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 08, 2017, 02:47:53 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Volkerding

Pat is The Man
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: anfang on February 08, 2017, 02:50:10 am
I like BSD, far more efficient, logical naming, packages etc. I also like Linux, but BSD... is super.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 08, 2017, 09:31:06 am
What a shame your information is inaccurate, outdated, and insecure:

Care to explain what you mean by this statement?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 08, 2017, 12:22:17 pm
I like BSD, far more efficient, logical naming, packages etc. I also like Linux, but BSD... is super.

Slackware uses the bsd style inits rather than systemd so its the best of both worlds :)

Windows isn't the easiest thing to install now a days either.  With 4 of us in the house I'm reinstalling someone's windows every few months and fixing other in between.  A windows reinstall takes at minimum a couple hours if not longer by the time you apply all the updates and the work arounds for issues.
I buy myself a 'refurbished' laptop every couple years so I can pass mine down to one of the kids and in 30 minutes I';ve wiped it and am running Slackware already, its soo much quicker and easier to install and setup.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: JPortici on February 08, 2017, 01:05:49 pm
wow this last page reminded me of /g/
very bad memories
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 09, 2017, 08:41:27 pm
 I STILL don't know what people do that they have to reinstall Windows every few months or every year. I have NEVER had to do that to any machine in my household or under my control. Every one has lasted until the machine itself was replaced, in my case usually 5 years or more - and that's usually because I get the itch to build a new machine, not because it doesn't do what I need it to do. My current desktop is that old, but I did upgrade 7 to 10 on it. My server is more like 7 years old now, never rebuilt. My other machines are also on shorter lifecycles because everything I have is now running 10, so it goes back to whenever I got the free update notification - the oldest one about a year now. And even less savvy people - the machine I built for my ex in-laws is still running just fine for the past 3 or 4 years since I had to replace a dead hard drive, still Windows 7 on that one. I haven't even touched it for any real maintenance in over a year and a half, it only updates because I have it set for automatic updates, not because they know how to do it, and if you are skeptical of their level of expertise, the last time they contacted me is because they got one of those fake calls from 'Microsoft' and they weren't sure if it was legit or a scam, so they had to ask me.



Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 09, 2017, 09:44:39 pm
usually its the kids turning them off without a proper shutdown or during an update.  But I also didn't lock out IE because a few school web pages still require it so they still will use IE for something else by mistake and get malware.
Plus I just don't feel like wasting time on maintaining windows, again I shouldn't have to, if a free OS can stay stable without tinkering then a paid for os should be able too.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 10, 2017, 01:30:33 am
Installing and uninstalling software causes registry bloat, because nothing ever completely uninstalls. Little dregs are left here and there throughout the Registry. Windows has to sift through the mess all the time.

This is why I require most software to run in portable mode with minimal to no need for the Registry.

Another thing is Windows keeps track of all your most recently used files and such, even if you turn that "feature" off. There can be thousands of these entries in the Registry. Again, more cruft to be sifted through.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 10, 2017, 02:38:20 am
I haven't looked at any windows newer than xp, does it still make a reg entry every time a usb device is plugged in?  That was one of the XP issues I had.  After months of plugging and unplugging my backup drive I had to clean out the reg to get it to see the drive.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: anfang on February 10, 2017, 04:02:50 am
I haven't looked at any windows newer than xp, does it still make a reg entry every time a usb device is plugged in?  That was one of the XP issues I had.  After months of plugging and unplugging my backup drive I had to clean out the reg to get it to see the drive.

I hope you have good security strategies if you're still on XP! It's a great OS, but come on...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 10, 2017, 07:12:25 am
I haven't looked at any windows newer than xp, does it still make a reg entry every time a usb device is plugged in?  That was one of the XP issues I had.  After months of plugging and unplugging my backup drive I had to clean out the reg to get it to see the drive.

I hope you have good security strategies if you're still on XP! It's a great OS, but come on...

I retired XP except on an old laptop I use when I need a real parallel port but I don't buy into all of the FUD about old operating systems and the security risks for the most part. I've seen zero evidence of the malware and exploit apocalypse everyone was fretting over. As long as one uses a browser other than IE and avoids doing sketchy things it's probably going to be fine. I realize security by obscurity is not the best strategy but the chances of someone stumbling across a random XP machine on the web and then taking the trouble to hack it is minimal. I've cleaned up a lot of infections over the years and I still don't think I've ever encountered a single exploit victim, rather in every case it was someone installing something sketchy, being tricked by a fake virus scanner popup or crapware bundled with legitimate software. Every single instance.

I've noticed Microsoft themselves spreading the same FUD about Windows 7 despite the fact that it's still supported for several more years. I have little doubt they are partially responsible for doing the same for XP once they became desperate to get people to upgrade.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 10, 2017, 11:54:27 am
I haven't looked at any windows newer than xp, does it still make a reg entry every time a usb device is plugged in?  That was one of the XP issues I had.  After months of plugging and unplugging my backup drive I had to clean out the reg to get it to see the drive.

I hope you have good security strategies if you're still on XP! It's a great OS, but come on...

This is/was back when I was on XP.  The USB issue, the resume suspend issue, the swap memory issue and of course the IE/security issues drove me to Linux.  I only use windows on my work provided laptops now so I don't have admin rights to dig in but can confirm all the user issues are still there, the resume issue, the shutdown/reboot while working, the memory usage, etc.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 10, 2017, 12:03:41 pm

I retired XP except on an old laptop I use when I need a real parallel port but I don't buy into all of the FUD about old operating systems and the security risks for the most part. I've seen zero evidence of the malware and exploit apocalypse everyone was fretting over. As long as one uses a browser other than IE and avoids doing sketchy things it's probably going to be fine. I realize security by obscurity is not the best strategy but the chances of someone stumbling across a random XP machine on the web and then taking the trouble to hack it is minimal. I've cleaned up a lot of infections over the years and I still don't think I've ever encountered a single exploit victim, rather in every case it was someone installing something sketchy, being tricked by a fake virus scanner popup or crapware bundled with legitimate software. Every single instance.


My daughters was the last xp laptop we had and last summer my son poured water on it so its gone now.  Theirs are all windows 7 except for my wife's which came with 8 and was unusable for 6 months so she didn't have anything to use going to 10.  My son has  10 on his desktop and 7 on his laptop.  My daughter was using 7 on my wife's old netbook but it decided to upgrade itsself to 10 and would take 20-30 minutes to boot after so I bought her a newer laptop with 7 already on it and just formatted the netbook and stuck Slackware on it and its usable again.

IE is my biggest issue with windows, I might have stayed if they hadn't integrated the browser so deep into the OS.  I had to use IE and a simple typo in the address bar took me to a malware site and despite being locked down as a non admin, etc.  After the speed and stability of windows 2000 XP was a big letdown.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on February 11, 2017, 03:44:43 pm
I don't buy into all of the FUD about old operating systems and the security risks for the most part.

That seems to be the case, a lot of FUD about computer security.  The only times I've had any problems personally was from landing on hostile web sites when I was running IE up until a few years ago.  The browser seems to be the entry point for malware you really have to be concerned about.  After I went to a more secure browser with a good IP filter (Chrome with uBlock Origin), I haven't had more any trouble. 

I think MS likes to motivate people by using FUD about computer security.  It's really just a marketing ploy.  There's probably some improvement in security from one OS to the next, but I don't think it's enough to warrant running out to buy the next version as soon as it releases.  In fact there may be security issues with a new version because unknown issues may exist.  I'd be surprised if someone can genuinely show a difference in security between win7 and win10.  As for winXP its only failing in my mind is that it's no longer supported.  I think it was the best product MS ever made.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 11, 2017, 03:57:15 pm
Problem is it doesn't matter how much security they add to new versions of windows until they remove IE from it there will always be that nice big insecure hole.

In other news I see they are changing the UI again for 10, more lipstick on a pig.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 11, 2017, 04:30:34 pm
Buy Mac, poroblem go away forever.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 11, 2017, 05:17:38 pm
Macs have their own set of problems though, there is a lot of software that is simply not available for Mac and to run it you end up running Windows anyway.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 11, 2017, 05:36:28 pm
Yeah if you're going to get a mac, which is closed and proprietary like Windows, may as well just go Linux, you'll run into the same set of compatibility issues but at least it's an open platform backed by a large community that will run on commodity hardware.  A mac is a closed black box more or less. 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: joeqsmith on February 11, 2017, 05:37:55 pm
I retired XP except on an old laptop I use when I need a real parallel port ...

Lack of a printer port was a problem on my new PC but I did find one that sits on a PCIe slot that I have working.  I used one of the internal USB ports to install a 2G stick that I boot when I need to run the older software.  Right now, just DOS.   :-DD 

Even managed to get the old firewire working on it.   :-DD

Still not a big fan of Windows 10.  Just too much fluff.  But it has been very stable.   
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 11, 2017, 06:38:24 pm
Macs have their own set of problems though, there is a lot of software that is simply not available for Mac and to run it you end up running Windows anyway.

"A lot of software" = an outdated myth - name some...

http://www.macyourself.com/2010/03/21/11-common-myths-that-keep-people-from-switching-to-macs/ (http://www.macyourself.com/2010/03/21/11-common-myths-that-keep-people-from-switching-to-macs/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 11, 2017, 06:42:33 pm
Yeah if you're going to get a mac, which is closed and proprietary like Windows, may as well just go Linux, you'll run into the same set of compatibility issues but at least it's an open platform backed by a large community that will run on commodity hardware.  A mac is a closed black box more or less.

Translation: "I am a Linux fan who wants people to come to the platform I am on, because I use it, regardless of what is easier for the individual person."

This whole "Closed and proprietary" nonsense is not a reason to avoid a platform - I GUARANTEE you the quality of support for Macs is many leagues higher and of a more professional, less argumentative nature than the free for all "too many cooks spoil the broth" of Linux forums.

Linux: Free = "You're on your own, go and READ THE MANAUL <rant rant at user>"
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 11, 2017, 06:53:13 pm
Windows, Linux, OS X, all same in the end, they just look different. But I must admit that on Linux one can do a bit more when it comes to managing the system, because of the openness. Most stuff that you can hack into a Linux box you can most likely do on OS X too though. On Windows these hacks can be a bit more tricky.

But when it comes to quality software, Windows and OS X are far more superior.

For networking, Linux beats them all. Maybe because it is easy to remove all extra bloat on Linux and recompile, while on OS X or Windows it is not possible.

I don't know...I use them all, they all have their PROS and CONS.

EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 11, 2017, 06:53:40 pm
I have seen Apple's support, it is not any better than Microsoft's.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 11, 2017, 07:02:00 pm
Macs are very nice systems, we have a few at work and a friend of mine has been a Mac guy for a long time. The hardware is really slick, definitely a notch above most PC clone laptops and the OS is nice and clean, I never cared for Steve Jobs as a person but his extreme attention to detail is reflected in MacOS and iOS.

None of that is important though if it doesn't support the software you use, and I happen to rely heavily on software that only works on Windows or in some cases Linux. I'd have to run one or both of those operating systems anyway even if I had a Mac so it doesn't make much sense to me. I may well get my mom a Macbook when her current Win7 laptop dies, she's not computer literate at all and I think it would save me some support time.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 11, 2017, 07:33:26 pm

But when it comes to quality software, Windows and OS X are far more superior.


Quality software?  Like Excel which has turned a couple of my big projects into .tmp files?  Sharepoint which has lost documents?  .NET which still brings servers to their knees?  Server 2003 bugs which microsoft closes your case with a workaround instead of a fix?

I have to use windows at work and I've had these issues.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 11, 2017, 09:47:28 pm
I have seen Apple's support, it is not any better than Microsoft's.

You are a survey sample of ONE person, and your viewpoint is not reflected by the masses.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 11, 2017, 09:51:07 pm
Windows, Linux, OS X, all same in the end, they just look different. But I must admit that on Linux one can do a bit more when it comes to managing the system, because of the openness. Most stuff that you can hack into a Linux box you can most likely do on OS X too though. On Windows these hacks can be a bit more tricky.

But when it comes to quality software, Windows and OS X are far more superior.

For networking, Linux beats them all. Maybe because it is easy to remove all extra bloat on Linux and recompile, while on OS X or Windows it is not possible.

I don't know...I use them all, they all have their PROS and CONS.

EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)

It's Mac, not "MAC"; it's a name, not an acronym.


It's futile attempting to demonstrate known givens in places like this, everyone's got some "hate" (?!) to spread, based on ignorance and having barely (if at all) having used, let alone TOUCHED a computer running said platform they are attempting to dismiss.


Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 11, 2017, 10:28:25 pm
I have seen Apple's support, it is not any better than Microsoft's.

You are a survey sample of ONE person, and your viewpoint is not reflected by the masses.

My experience comes from being a local VAR in the GEM market having several customers who just had to have macs and got fed up with the support.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 11, 2017, 10:32:26 pm
Windows, Linux, OS X, all same in the end, they just look different. But I must admit that on Linux one can do a bit more when it comes to managing the system, because of the openness. Most stuff that you can hack into a Linux box you can most likely do on OS X too though. On Windows these hacks can be a bit more tricky.

But when it comes to quality software, Windows and OS X are far more superior.

For networking, Linux beats them all. Maybe because it is easy to remove all extra bloat on Linux and recompile, while on OS X or Windows it is not possible.

I don't know...I use them all, they all have their PROS and CONS.

EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)

It's Mac, not "MAC"; it's a name, not an acronym.


It's futile attempting to demonstrate known givens in places like this, everyone's got some "hate" (?!) to spread, based on ignorance and having barely (if at all) having used, let alone TOUCHED a computer running said platform they are attempting to dismiss.

Well, I'm typing this on an ageing Core Duo Mac mini, there's two Mac notebooks in the house, also a G5 iMac and a G5 PowerMac both still in daily use (and one linux box in daily use) so this is not a Mac unfriendly household, and yet you still manage to sound like a rabid fanboy to me.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 11, 2017, 10:51:44 pm
Windows, Linux, OS X, all same in the end, they just look different. But I must admit that on Linux one can do a bit more when it comes to managing the system, because of the openness. Most stuff that you can hack into a Linux box you can most likely do on OS X too though. On Windows these hacks can be a bit more tricky.

But when it comes to quality software, Windows and OS X are far more superior.

For networking, Linux beats them all. Maybe because it is easy to remove all extra bloat on Linux and recompile, while on OS X or Windows it is not possible.

I don't know...I use them all, they all have their PROS and CONS.

EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)

It's Mac, not "MAC"; it's a name, not an acronym.


It's futile attempting to demonstrate known givens in places like this, everyone's got some "hate" (?!) to spread, based on ignorance and having barely (if at all) having used, let alone TOUCHED a computer running said platform they are attempting to dismiss.

Well, I'm typing this on an ageing Core Duo Mac mini, there's two Mac notebooks in the house, also a G5 iMac and a G5 PowerMac both still in daily use (and one linux box in daily use) so this is not a Mac unfriendly household, and yet you still manage to sound like a rabid fanboy to me.

With all those Macs, YOU sound like the fanboy! :p hehe

I was pulling your leg :)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on February 11, 2017, 11:09:33 pm
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 12, 2017, 12:39:49 am
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down

 :-DD If I had a pound for every time I ended up staring at a blue screen on a machine running 3.11 I would be considerably richer. Heck, I had days it wouldn't finish booting and would blue screen just connecting to LAN Manager shares.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 12, 2017, 12:56:57 am
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down

 :-DD If I had a pound for every time I ended up staring at a blue screen on a machine running 3.11 I would be considerably richer. Heck, I had days it wouldn't finish booting and would blue screen just connecting to LAN Manager shares.

If I had £1 for every time my Mac has crashed on me, I'd have... about £3   :P
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: senso on February 12, 2017, 03:10:10 am
Problem is the user, I have 4 laptops for work and personal use(one on my bed to watch series, a gaming laptop tethered to a display, mouse, headset, keyboard, a work-related one and my old work laptop), none as suffered a BSOD in years...

None of them is super recent(3 of them are i7-4700 based), all four have SSD's(ranging from 128 to 480GB), the gaming laptop as currently 1GB of games, plus Solidworks, Autodesk Fusion, Eagle, Visual Studio, phyton something, and a lot of other small crap.

ZERO BSOD's, none is running anything else than MS anti-virus with the monthly or 2 month Malwarebytes scan, I only use Chrome because all my laptops have 16GB-32GB RAM, Chrome is always running with Ghostery, ADP,AD, uBlock, h.264ify, RES and https everywhere.

I dont have problems with virus, nor malware, nor trojans, nor anything like that, I can understand how people get their systems full of crap and get lots of BSOD's due to shitty Toshiba hdd's in laptops, besides that, you must be toying around with shit like Driver Booster because downloading legit drivers is hard, and crap like system cleaners and optimizers that like to dip their toes in the Registry because it makes the OS faster...

I have used linux for years as well, today, only in a VM, not much need about it, and when every reboot it wants another 300MB of updates I got feedup pretty fast..
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 12, 2017, 03:15:39 am
Problem is the user, I have 4 laptops for work and personal use(one on my bed to watch series, a gaming laptop tethered to a display, mouse, headset, keyboard, a work-related one and my old work laptop), none as suffered a BSOD in years...

None of them is super recent(3 of them are i7-4700 based), all four have SSD's(ranging from 128 to 480GB), the gaming laptop as currently 1GB of games, plus Solidworks, Autodesk Fusion, Eagle, Visual Studio, phyton something, and a lot of other small crap.

ZERO BSOD's, none is running anything else than MS anti-virus with the monthly or 2 month Malwarebytes scan, I only use Chrome because all my laptops have 16GB-32GB RAM, Chrome is always running with Ghostery, ADP,AD, uBlock, h.264ify, RES and https everywhere.

I dont have problems with virus, nor malware, nor trojans, nor anything like that, I can understand how people get their systems full of crap and get lots of BSOD's due to shitty Toshiba hdd's in laptops, besides that, you must be toying around with shit like Driver Booster because downloading legit drivers is hard, and crap like system cleaners and optimizers that like to dip their toes in the Registry because it makes the OS faster...

I have used linux for years as well, today, only in a VM, not much need about it, and when every reboot it wants another 300MB of updates I got feedup pretty fast..

You talk about 300MB as if it's a lot of data... that's the 2017 equivalent of 30Kb.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: senso on February 12, 2017, 03:31:34 am
Welcome to living part of the week in a village with 2Mb's of download(thank you ADSL), and when I used ubuntu/mint/arch THAT is a lot of data to be downloaded everyday..

Currently in that place I have 4G(limited to 20Mb down, 10Mb up, no data caps), the rest of the week I have fiber(but its just 120Mb down, but more than enough for me).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 12, 2017, 06:33:30 am
While I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where broadband is pretty much standard, I think a lot of tech workers exist in a bubble utterly unaware that there are hundreds of thousands of people even in first world developed nations who do not have access to broadband. Many thousands of people still use dialup just like we did in the 90s, it hasn't changed much. If you don't have access to broadband, 300MB is as big a download now as it was 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on February 12, 2017, 01:48:15 pm
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
Despite your assertive is correct on both accounts, Windows 3.11 had huge holes in HW management and multitasking (the then called cooperative multitasking). Applications brought a system down by holding on to the CPU without yielding to the kernel, either because they simply crashed or because they were waiting on a HW resource.
Macs, as you said, were simply too reckless with memory and the lack of true multitasking never allowed a fair comparison with Windows - it was always a heavy conjecture a Mac system outperformed Windows until they migrated to Intel processors. By then, it was evident the claims of higher performance were only marginal and the only tangible benefit was a much more streamlined integration with hardware and ease of use.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on February 12, 2017, 05:08:02 pm
Surprised Windows 3.11 is even coming up in this discussion.  For me it was a really poor product, constant crashes.  Windows XP was the most stable MS product I've run.  It could give Linux a run for the money.  It was even more stable than the Win7 installation I'm on currently.  Don't know if I got lucky with just the right hardware or what, but I tend to think it was more a design thing, XP was just done right.

For me it's not as much a matter of the platform as it is the software I can run on it.  Mac, Linux, Windows, it's all just the foundation to house the software.  From my own experience, Windows seems to be the ubiquitous platform for software.  If developers wanted to they could hoist Linux or Mac up to the same standing, but they don't do it.  There's a good amount of software that's just not available for anything but Windows.

If you don't mind running various platforms it's not so much a problem.  For me, I want one machine and one installation to handle all my needs, not a bunch of devices or virtual machines crowding up my life.  In that case I'm pretty much stuck with Windows.  Software makers always develop for Windows first then ports to Mac and Linux seem to be an afterthought.  If that changes I'll have zero issue with running something else.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CatalinaWOW on February 12, 2017, 05:36:57 pm
Surprised Windows 3.11 is even coming up in this discussion.  For me it was a really poor product, constant crashes.  Windows XP was the most stable MS product I've run.  It could give Linux a run for the money.  It was even more stable than the Win7 installation I'm on currently.  Don't know if I got lucky with just the right hardware or what, but I tend to think it was more a design thing, XP was just done right.

For me it's not as much a matter of the platform as it is the software I can run on it.  Mac, Linux, Windows, it's all just the foundation to house the software.  From my own experience, Windows seems to be the ubiquitous platform for software.  If developers wanted to they could hoist Linux or Mac up to the same standing, but they don't do it.  There's a good amount of software that's just not available for anything but Windows.

If you don't mind running various platforms it's not so much a problem.  For me, I want one machine and one installation to handle all my needs, not a bunch of devices or virtual machines crowding up my life.  In that case I'm pretty much stuck with Windows.  Software makers always develop for Windows first then ports to Mac and Linux seem to be an afterthought.  If that changes I'll have zero issue with running something else.

I agree in general, but not in detail.  There have been superior programs in both the Mac and Linux world that either never became available in Windows, or have been slow to develop and poorly supported.  But if you have to have a single platform with the widest availability of software, Windows is definitely it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 12, 2017, 05:41:50 pm
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
Despite your assertive is correct on both accounts, Windows 3.11 had huge holes in HW management and multitasking (the then called cooperative multitasking). Applications brought a system down by holding on to the CPU without yielding to the kernel, either because they simply crashed or because they were waiting on a HW resource.
Macs, as you said, were simply too reckless with memory and the lack of true multitasking never allowed a fair comparison with Windows - it was always a heavy conjecture a Mac system outperformed Windows until they migrated to Intel processors. By then, it was evident the claims of higher performance were only marginal and the only tangible benefit was a much more streamlined integration with hardware and ease of use.

I think rsjsouza is understanding what I meant, the rest of you have just stuck on the OS itself. I talk about the whole system. Mac was more superior in the days of PowerPC just like the Amiga was superior to any computer during that time. Today there's no difference between a Mac and a Windows PC, buy either one and you get same crap, just with different software.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 12, 2017, 05:54:02 pm

But when it comes to quality software, Windows and OS X are far more superior.


Quality software?  Like Excel which has turned a couple of my big projects into .tmp files?  Sharepoint which has lost documents?  .NET which still brings servers to their knees?  Server 2003 bugs which microsoft closes your case with a workaround instead of a fix?

I have to use windows at work and I've had these issues.

You must be having some user error/configuration issues. Something is not configured right. Maybe security is not good enough and you got hacked. I have never ever had any issues with Office, Sharepoint, Windows Server, or any Microsoft products for that matter ever since Windows 1.0 was released. Nor have I had any issues with any Linux, Amiga or Mac box either.

It is funny that people keep finding problems in products when the problem most of the time is the user. :-D

EDIT: I am currently running Windows 10 Beta software, and have no issues what so ever. Only 3 builds were bad for my hardware, the rest has been running more or less without glitches.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Zero999 on February 12, 2017, 06:56:42 pm
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
A rouge program could still easily cause the Windows 3.11 to crash though because it allowed ordinary programs direct access to much of the hardware.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Sigmoid on February 12, 2017, 07:35:47 pm
I think rsjsouza is understanding what I meant, the rest of you have just stuck on the OS itself. I talk about the whole system. Mac was more superior in the days of PowerPC just like the Amiga was superior to any computer during that time. Today there's no difference between a Mac and a Windows PC, buy either one and you get same crap, just with different software.
Was it? The PowerPC cpus were a joke. The blasted things easily doubled as space heaters. Performance per watts was a decade behind Intel, heck even AMD would have wiped the floor with them on that, and that's saying something.

It's popular to bash the x86/PC architecture because it "grew organically" and has a lot of "legacy crap", but ultimately, it's come a very long way, and I really don't see any objective (ie. non-aesthetic) argument why it would be inferior to anything else. I'm one of the idiots that bought into this with Amiga, with ia64, with second Jobs-era Macs, but ultimately I realized all this is just hipster snobbery, nothing else.

The thing that made makes Apple computers "superior" is the build quality. They aren't "the best", but they are really good, and that's probably enough. The first time I've seen the mainboard of an iMac, I threw a backflip; the board layout was a literal work of art. It was beautiful - not just the emergent beauty of something well-made, but conscious, "let's make this look as good as it works", "put in the extra effort" beautiful, like a little cityscape built of capacitors, resistors and ICs.

It was never an outdated and overhyped processor architecture that gave Macs their flavor. It was just something to wave around, like kids back in the day shouting in the playground about whose games console has "more bits".
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on February 12, 2017, 07:39:41 pm
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down
:-DD If I had a pound for every time I ended up staring at a blue screen on a machine running 3.11 I would be considerably richer. Heck, I had days it wouldn't finish booting and would blue screen just connecting to LAN Manager shares.
Ofcourse you need to have a good PC to begin with. 99.9% of Windows stability problems come from cheap crap hardware. In all fairness you have to realise there is not much MS can do about that (and this is probably the reason Apple is so hell bound on running their software on their hardware only). However on good hardware a misbehaving program triggers an exception and only the data in that program is lost. I've seen enough problems on the old (pre x86) MACs where a misbehaving program takes the entire machine down and you'll lose all the data you didn't save.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Sigmoid on February 12, 2017, 07:47:01 pm
That seems to be the case, a lot of FUD about computer security.  The only times I've had any problems personally was from landing on hostile web sites when I was running IE up until a few years ago.  The browser seems to be the entry point for malware you really have to be concerned about.  After I went to a more secure browser with a good IP filter (Chrome with uBlock Origin), I haven't had more any trouble. 

I think MS likes to motivate people by using FUD about computer security.  It's really just a marketing ploy.  There's probably some improvement in security from one OS to the next, but I don't think it's enough to warrant running out to buy the next version as soon as it releases.  In fact there may be security issues with a new version because unknown issues may exist.  I'd be surprised if someone can genuinely show a difference in security between win7 and win10.  As for winXP its only failing in my mind is that it's no longer supported.  I think it was the best product MS ever made.
Whether the lack of security updates is an issue or not is entirely dependent of the user and what the machine is used for. And users who need to reinstall Windows every few months are not prepared to run a system with dozens of well-known unfixed vulnerabilities.

Yes, the most obvious vector of attack on a desktop is the web browser. Not the only one. You need to actively lock down the whole system, disable all the file sharing and network discovery capability, disarm the ipv6 tunneling stack, the whole activation / "E.T. phone home" component, all the little convenience utilities that have some kind of network footprint... even when you have every service shut down, all incoming ports blocked, there is the chance that someone finds an exploit in the TCP/IP stack, in which case if you log onto wifi in a coffee shop, and someone there has "brand new malware no. 699" running on their machine, which happens to contain this exploit, well, welcome to the zombie DDoS army of the Russian Federation.

Security is not what it used to be when you learned computers on MS DOS or CP/M or whatever.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kilrah on February 12, 2017, 08:15:41 pm
The thing that made makes Apple computers "superior" is the build quality. They aren't "the best", but they are really good, and that's probably enough. The first time I've seen the mainboard of an iMac, I threw a backflip; the board layout was a literal work of art

The boards are a work of art for sure esthetically... but don't speak too loud about "build quality" to all those who had graphics card failures on their Macbooks, display and battery failures on iPhones etc.
The fact they have a small catalog casues issues to plague a parge portion of their offering. They're pretty good at taming down the reports though.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Sigmoid on February 12, 2017, 09:13:48 pm
The boards are a work of art for sure esthetically... but don't speak too loud about "build quality" to all those who had graphics card failures on their Macbooks, display and battery failures on iPhones etc.
The fact they have a small catalog casues issues to plague a parge portion of their offering. They're pretty good at taming down the reports though.
If by "taming down the reports", you mean "immediately replacing the defective product while apologizing", then sure... :) Sure I've also heard of the horror stories - but neither I, nor anyone else I know or anyone the people I know know has ever actually experienced anything like that.

Anyway, defects, and even customer service mistakes are simply inevitable in tech, especially when a company is as big as Apple... and getting people citing up every tiny mistake as a world-ending debacle is inevitable if a company has as many haters as Apple...

And I used to build my own PCs in the 90s and early 2000s, and reliability meant something completely different then... Not "one in a hundred thousand iPhones experience inexplicable battery failure", rather "generic VGA card refuses to work in generic motherboard regardless of nominal compatibility... let's try another VESA slot... wow now it's booting, let's sacrifice that black rooster quickly".
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 12, 2017, 09:46:55 pm
... but don't speak too loud about "build quality" to all those who had graphics card failures on their Macbooks, display and battery failures on iPhones etc.

Plenty of people other than Apple had problems with fine pitch BGA chips (the cause of the video processor failures) when they were first being used in mass produced hardware, Xbox for instance.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 12, 2017, 09:49:35 pm
Apple seem to have an interesting concept in thermal management. Until today, I've been using i7 quad core Mac Minis as my daily desktop drivers for four or five years, but run them in Windows natively 99% of the time. The hardware has been totally reliable, but wow do they run hot.

A few months ago I noticed on one of them the fan was blowing hard 24x7 so assumed it needed a clean out. In the end it turned out to be a crap bit of software, but since then I regularly monitored the temps. It turns out these machines routinely run into thermal throttling as a matter of course, by design. This happens at 100C. While I never saw any bad effects, it left me with an uneasy feeling.

This, together with the fact that Apple don't offer i7 quad cores anymore, plus that there are no upgrade paths anymore, I've now gone back to building my own machines, after about seven years of buying off the shelf. They're not quite as neat, but upgrade opportunities are far better.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 12, 2017, 09:51:42 pm
I worked for a reseller in the GEM market (Government, Education, Military).  We could sell 100 Dell/HP/etc business machines and have 1-2 problems.  We'd sell 10 Apples and have 1-2 problems.  I had one customer when I'd go to their site he would tell me how much better Apples were than anything else.  His fancy Apple was shipped back to Apple 6 times in two years for warranty work yet he continued to sing their praise.  Thats why they get rated so much higher than what they really are in all the surveys.
Then you look at each year someone has a big recall.  One year its Sony, another HP, another Dell.  Apple had a recall every year.  So one year its Sony and Apple for batteries.  They next year its HP and Apple for video cards, the next year its Dell and Apple for power supplies.

Thats not even getting started on the legal games, copy Palm's swipe and then sue everyone else who copied palm's.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Kilrah on February 12, 2017, 10:02:33 pm
Apple seem to have an interesting concept in thermal management. Until today, I've been using i7 quad core Mac Minis as my daily desktop drivers for four or five years, but run them in Windows natively 99% of the time. The hardware has been totally reliable, but wow do they run hot.

My experience is that they pretty heavily rely on their fine tweaking of power usage, dynamic clock settings etc in OSX that causes a machine running on light/normal loads to be significantly more power-efficient. Once you load Windows none of that anymore, it just runs with very basic and unoptimized defaults.
On a Macbook you'll typically have half he battery life on Windows than on OSX, so that's that amount of heat that isn't released on OSX, most likely same on their desktop siblings.

And yes Apple seem to often design throttling as being normal when running at full load extensively unfortunately... gotta squeeze tht extra mm of design thinness whatever the cost :(
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 12, 2017, 10:24:18 pm
Windows is inefficient.  Any system I've ever setup as a dual boot, windows runs the cpu hotter then whatever Linux distro I was dual booting.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 12, 2017, 11:30:25 pm
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
A rouge program could still easily cause the Windows 3.11 to crash though because it allowed ordinary programs direct access to much of the hardware.

A RED program?

(http://geniusbeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Chanell-Rouge-Allure.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on February 13, 2017, 02:22:48 am
EDIT: A MAC was superior to all of the other computers while they still were PowerPCs, but after they degraded their system to Intel X86_64 architecture MACs are just PCs. :-)
Just must be joking. Windows 3.11 already had protected memory so a misbehaving program didn't take the whole system down unlike what would happen on a MAC: total crash.
Despite your assertive is correct on both accounts, Windows 3.11 had huge holes in HW management and multitasking (the then called cooperative multitasking). Applications brought a system down by holding on to the CPU without yielding to the kernel, either because they simply crashed or because they were waiting on a HW resource.
Macs, as you said, were simply too reckless with memory and the lack of true multitasking never allowed a fair comparison with Windows - it was always a heavy conjecture a Mac system outperformed Windows until they migrated to Intel processors. By then, it was evident the claims of higher performance were only marginal and the only tangible benefit was a much more streamlined integration with hardware and ease of use.

I think rsjsouza is understanding what I meant, the rest of you have just stuck on the OS itself. I talk about the whole system. Mac was more superior in the days of PowerPC just like the Amiga was superior to any computer during that time. Today there's no difference between a Mac and a Windows PC, buy either one and you get same crap, just with different software.
A few months ago I got for free a Mac Mini from 2007 and it is running on my desk. I can tell its integration with Bluetooth and Wireless LAN was years ahead XP and its quirky settings (especially Bluetooth). It is also quite snappy given its age, although it runs terribly hot. Therefore the perception is probably triggered by the fact that Microsoft simply caught up and cleared most of the horrible quirks of its pre-7 releases. 

That said, I wouldn't go as far as saying that Mac was superior in all aspects to a PC at that time - the convergence came earlier than the processor migration itself, most probably due to economies of scale, which evidenced the aging of the architecture. Early PPC Macintosh systems came standard with a faster disk subsystem (SCSI) and a series of dedicated slots for specific functions, which brought clear superiority for audio and graphics, while most PCs had the slower ATA, the beeper and the more standard ISA bus. During the 1990s this gap was severely reduced by the adoption of a faster bus (the short-lived Vesa and later PCI) together with the inclusion of sound and accelerated 2D (and later 3D) graphics cards. The Power Macintosh removed the SCSI drive, while the iMac G3 added support for USB in favor of firewire and the only breakthrough feature was to remove the floppy disk.
With all this, the PPC was clearly lagging behind x86 in clock speed as well. With Pentium III reaching 1GHz 2~3 years earlier than the G5, it started to become evident Apple was cornered.

Title: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 13, 2017, 03:37:25 am
Yeah if you're going to get a mac, which is closed and proprietary like Windows, may as well just go Linux, you'll run into the same set of compatibility issues but at least it's an open platform backed by a large community that will run on commodity hardware.  A mac is a closed black box more or less.

Yeah, it's not like macOS is based on a completely open source components or anything... Oh, wait... (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)) Plus the hardware is totally proprietary, I mean, it's not like it's build on commodity Intel hardware or anything... Oh, wait...

With macOS, I can run pretty much any software that runs on Linux (including X11 stuff) plus thousands of Mac specific apps, all in a very nice GUI *and* I can do it all without having to spend weeks digging through config files to make it work!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: BradC on February 13, 2017, 03:52:49 am
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

I use all 3 becuase there is no right tool for every job. Additionally, if all you have is a hammer, every fastener begins to look like a nail.

I predominantly use Linux on the desktop/laptop, with Windows in VMs. Occassionally where warranted I boot into OSX. I choose to use Macs for my Desktop/Laptop hardware. I always enjoy the constant fanboy hate directed at users of "insert whatever hardware/software" here as if they know what does and doesn't work for me or what I value in my hardware. Always a waste of time, but a great indicator of the quality of the person on the end of the keyboard.

Use whatever works best for you. I use what works best for me.

Back on topic, yes I'm not a fan of what Microsoft has become. Having said that, the apparent nastiness has always been boiling below the surface. They just needed other companies to show them how little the average person values their privacy before they had the balls to go and do it themselves.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: avrishuvorlaz on February 13, 2017, 03:55:40 am
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

I use all 3 becuase there is no right tool for every job. Additionally, if all you have is a hammer, every fastener begins to look like a nail.

I predominantly use Linux on the desktop/laptop, with Windows in VMs. Occassionally where warranted I boot into OSX. I choose to use Macs for my Desktop/Laptop hardware. I always enjoy the constant fanboy hate directed at users of "insert whatever hardware/software" here as if they know what does and doesn't work for me or what I value in my hardware. Always a waste of time, but a great indicator of the quality of the person on the end of the keyboard.

Use whatever works best for you. I use what works best for me.

Back on topic, yes I'm not a fan of what Microsoft has become. Having said that, the apparent nastiness has always been boiling below the surface. They just needed other companies to show them how little the average person values their privacy before they had the balls to go and do it themselves.

"I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" p*****g contests."

For intelligent engineers, these people can be awfully stupid at times. It's like saying "my screwdriver is better than your hammer"


-_-
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 13, 2017, 07:37:31 am
That said, I wouldn't go as far as saying that Mac was superior in all aspects to a PC at that time - the convergence came earlier than the processor migration itself, most probably due to economies of scale, which evidenced the aging of the architecture. Early PPC Macintosh systems came standard with a faster disk subsystem (SCSI) and a series of dedicated slots for specific functions, which brought clear superiority for audio and graphics, while most PCs had the slower ATA, the beeper and the more standard ISA bus. During the 1990s this gap was severely reduced by the adoption of a faster bus (the short-lived Vesa and later PCI) together with the inclusion of sound and accelerated 2D (and later 3D) graphics cards. The Power Macintosh removed the SCSI drive, while the iMac G3 added support for USB in favor of firewire and the only breakthrough feature was to remove the floppy disk.
With all this, the PPC was clearly lagging behind x86 in clock speed as well. With Pentium III reaching 1GHz 2~3 years earlier than the G5, it started to become evident Apple was cornered.

Exactly! But one can not make a direct connection between overall performance and clockspeed when comparing a x86, with PPC or even ARM. There is so much more to it than just how many clock cycles a CPU can make within a second.

The best hardware, software and software tech has disappeared from the markets because of company mistakes and bad marketing. If the best stuff would have survived the 80s and 90s our computers including the software would look very different compared to what we have today. It's a shame so much great stuff is gone, or never got the support it deserved.

Microsoft has always been a good copycat and excellent at marketing, that is why they survived. In the early days they had nothing that was of their own creation. Everything was more or less copied or bought. Today it's a bit different, though they still buy good companies with great software and ruin the original software architecture when they try to add MS specific features into them.

I must admit that while MS software is quite good, it still has a lot of room for improvement, including latest Windows (which is the original topic here).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: timb on February 13, 2017, 12:22:36 pm
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

If that's directed at me, I wasn't saying macOS was better than anything else, just refuting the statement it's completely closed.

I setup and managed servers professionally for over ten years, so by no means do I dislike Linux (though personally I preferred FreeBSD).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: BradC on February 13, 2017, 01:19:01 pm
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

If that's directed at me, I wasn't saying macOS was better than anything else, just refuting the statement it's completely closed.

No, honestly it was just an observation. It just happens _every_ time os or hardware platform is mentioned. Mostly it seems to be people ragging on Mac users, but it does go in all directions.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 13, 2017, 01:42:00 pm
Microsoft has always been a good copycat and excellent at marketing, that is why they survived. In the early days they had nothing that was of their own creation. Everything was more or less copied or bought. Today it's a bit different, though they still buy good companies with great software and ruin the original software architecture when they try to add MS specific features into them.

They are also very good on MS-ofying standards. Domains and Active Directory are modified versions of Kerberos and LDAP.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Sigmoid on February 13, 2017, 01:52:01 pm
The best hardware, software and software tech has disappeared from the markets because of company mistakes and bad marketing. If the best stuff would have survived the 80s and 90s our computers including the software would look very different compared to what we have today. It's a shame so much great stuff is gone, or never got the support it deserved.
But how do we define "the best"?

There indeed were many "beautiful" architectures that eventually dropped out of mainstream or disappeared entirely. They were, without exception, closed platforms, owned by companies that were often mismanaged (post-Tramiel Commodore for example, not to say that the old man didn't make mistakes in his day). The PC architecture won out because of openness, while being "good enough".

How would the world be different if the PC didn't happen? We'd probably still have completely incompatible architectures, with software houses having to develop separately for Amiga, for Atari, for DEC, for Sun, for NeXT, for whatever else... By choosing a computer you'd probably be choosing an entire ecosystem. We probably wouldn't have USB and SATA - instead there would be Amiga external HDDs, Atari external HDDs, DEC external HDDs, Sun external HDDs, NeXT external HDDs...

Coding assembly would probably be nicer than it is for the x64 architecture... But nobody would be coding assembly anyway because I doubt the laziness of coders would have evolved differently - and you'd probably see massive feature withholding in software, as everyone would be coding in a way that can be compiled for each architecture with minimal code changes.

Machines would probably be marginally faster per clock cycle, but definitely not per US dollar, as closed architectures would have prevented the commoditization of hardware as it happened with the advent of the PC.

So... I guess the PC was probably the right choice in the end.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 13, 2017, 04:49:26 pm
Almost all of those systems you mentioned, Amiga, Atari, DEC, SUN, NeXT, etc used SCSI hard drives, the PC was the oddball back in that era, using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

I think without the PC it is still inevitable that one or two platforms would have become dominant with perhaps a couple stragglers hanging on just as has happened with mobile devices. Android and iOS dominate the market and are the only real competitors, Blackberry hung on for a long time and now Windows Mobile is the straggler. Evolving hardware would have spelled the end for all of the fancy custom chipsets as CPUs and programmable GPUs got powerful enough to make custom silicon uneconomical.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 13, 2017, 05:34:48 pm
... using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

Other way around. IDE came first, preceded by ST-506 and similar semi-proprietary interfaces.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 13, 2017, 05:42:31 pm
I love it how these threads always degenerate into "My OS is better than yours" pissing contests.

If that's directed at me, I wasn't saying macOS was better than anything else, just refuting the statement it's completely closed.

No, honestly it was just an observation. It just happens _every_ time os or hardware platform is mentioned. Mostly it seems to be people ragging on Mac users, but it does go in all directions.

I just wait for someone to say 'mac is better' and then give my best 'nuh-uh'  :P
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 13, 2017, 05:47:11 pm
The best hardware, software and software tech has disappeared from the markets because of company mistakes and bad marketing. If the best stuff would have survived the 80s and 90s our computers including the software would look very different compared to what we have today. It's a shame so much great stuff is gone, or never got the support it deserved.
But how do we define "the best"?

There indeed were many "beautiful" architectures that eventually dropped out of mainstream or disappeared entirely. They were, without exception, closed platforms, owned by companies that were often mismanaged (post-Tramiel Commodore for example, not to say that the old man didn't make mistakes in his day). The PC architecture won out because of openness, while being "good enough".

How would the world be different if the PC didn't happen? We'd probably still have completely incompatible architectures, with software houses having to develop separately for Amiga, for Atari, for DEC, for Sun, for NeXT, for whatever else... By choosing a computer you'd probably be choosing an entire ecosystem. We probably wouldn't have USB and SATA - instead there would be Amiga external HDDs, Atari external HDDs, DEC external HDDs, Sun external HDDs, NeXT external HDDs...

Coding assembly would probably be nicer than it is for the x64 architecture... But nobody would be coding assembly anyway because I doubt the laziness of coders would have evolved differently - and you'd probably see massive feature withholding in software, as everyone would be coding in a way that can be compiled for each architecture with minimal code changes.

Machines would probably be marginally faster per clock cycle, but definitely not per US dollar, as closed architectures would have prevented the commoditization of hardware as it happened with the advent of the PC.

So... I guess the PC was probably the right choice in the end.

All the last of the Amiga's, etc had USB and many of the other industry standards, it wasn't openenss that allowed IBM (PC) to win.   

Part of it was .gov contracts which required second supplier so the Intel/AMD/etc partnership was formed to have a second supplier for the main chips.
Software was the real big win, Microsoft software.  The first question over any Amiga/Atari, etc sale was can it run MSOffice/excel/word.

Developing for multiple platforms isn't that big of a deal, look at firefox, chrome, thunderbird, ApacheOpen/LibreOffice, KiCad, etc.  Running parallel versions for win/mac/linux isn't much work that running parallel for win/mac/linux/amiga.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 13, 2017, 06:00:16 pm
... using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

Other way around. IDE came first, preceded by ST-506 and similar semi-proprietary interfaces.

IDE came out in 1986, SCSI was released initially in 1981 and evolved from the earlier SASI interface that I believe appeared in the mid 70s.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 14, 2017, 02:18:17 am
... using the cheap but proprietary AT Attachment interface that evolved into IDE.

Other way around. IDE came first, preceded by ST-506 and similar semi-proprietary interfaces.

IDE came out in 1986, SCSI was released initially in 1981 and evolved from the earlier SASI interface that I believe appeared in the mid 70s.

Yes, but your assertion was that ATA come before IDE. ATA was the series of industry standards that followed on from (Compaq) Integrated Drive Electronics. Integrated as opposed to, in the PC-XT and PC-AT, the ST-506 interface and friends which left the controller with real work to do (timing sectors etc.) whereas IDE, ATA, SCSI and the Shugart Associates Serial Interface all use(d) Host Bus Adapters and just ship data and commands back and forth.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: pbendel on February 14, 2017, 03:06:37 am
Somebody beyond the legal reach of Microsoft should make their own version of Windows to keep the ecosystem healthy.  I'd be happy to pay for a non morally bankrupt current version of Windows.  Maybe others would too...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 14, 2017, 04:14:57 am
Somebody beyond the legal reach of Microsoft should make their own version of Windows to keep the ecosystem healthy.  I'd be happy to pay for a non morally bankrupt current version of Windows.  Maybe others would too...
https://www.reactos.org/ (https://www.reactos.org/)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: John B on February 14, 2017, 04:37:22 am
Mac is the only big OS name which seems to have considered MIDI and audio applications as a standard part of the OS. So in that sense Im willing to pay the markup for a tool that works.... As above, different OS's can be different tools for different applications.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: amspire on February 14, 2017, 04:39:40 am
Somebody beyond the legal reach of Microsoft should make their own version of Windows to keep the ecosystem healthy.  I'd be happy to pay for a non morally bankrupt current version of Windows.  Maybe others would too...
https://www.reactos.org/ (https://www.reactos.org/)
It has taken 20 years for Reactos to reach a point that they can unreliably run some Windows programs on a FAT32 file system. It is not currently a useable alternative. Not the slightest threat to Microsoft.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 14, 2017, 05:11:44 am
Yes, but your assertion was that ATA come before IDE. ATA was the series of industry standards that followed on from (Compaq) Integrated Drive Electronics. Integrated as opposed to, in the PC-XT and PC-AT, the ST-506 interface and friends which left the controller with real work to do (timing sectors etc.) whereas IDE, ATA, SCSI and the Shugart Associates Serial Interface all use(d) Host Bus Adapters and just ship data and commands back and forth.

Yes, you're right, I worded it wrong. The IDE interface was essentially a direct connection to the 16 bit AT (ISA) bus with the controller built into the drive. The interface card in the computer being little more than some buffers and on some of them a ROM chip holding the bios. It wasn't until later that it was called ATA, however the earliest ATA was really no different than IDE, it was just renamed to reflect the greater number of uses beyond hard drives.

 
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 14, 2017, 05:19:37 am

All the last of the Amiga's, etc had USB and many of the other industry standards, it wasn't openenss that allowed IBM (PC) to win.   

Part of it was .gov contracts which required second supplier so the Intel/AMD/etc partnership was formed to have a second supplier for the main chips.
Software was the real big win, Microsoft software.  The first question over any Amiga/Atari, etc sale was can it run MSOffice/excel/word.

Developing for multiple platforms isn't that big of a deal, look at firefox, chrome, thunderbird, ApacheOpen/LibreOffice, KiCad, etc.  Running parallel versions for win/mac/linux isn't much work that running parallel for win/mac/linux/amiga.


The openness was a very, very large part of the reason for the success. The market was flooded with inexpensive PC clones, they outsold genuine IBM machines by many times over. There may have been some part in the second source thing but consumers didn't care about that, the PC clones sold well because they were cheap and became the defacto standard, it's similar to the way VHS beat Beta.

Cross-platform development is relatively easy now but it wasn't in the old days of DOS/Win3.x, 68k Mac and Amiga. These platforms were/are all radically different, completely different architecture, graphics, filesystems, everything, software had to be written to talk directly to the hardware in many cases. If you wanted to create a Mac version of a Windows 3.1 program you pretty much had to start from scratch, it wasn't just a matter of porting some existing code. People forget how spoiled we are these days, everything has an abstraction layer that makes the intimate details of the hardware practically irrelevant.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: BradC on February 14, 2017, 10:32:29 am
The openness was a very, very large part of the reason for the success. The market was flooded with inexpensive PC clones, they outsold genuine IBM machines by many times over.

There was nothing open about it. Compaq enabled that by pouring a metric crapton of money into a clean room clone of the BIOS. *That* is what enabled the flood of clones. A whole heap of people looked at it and went "hey, we can do that". From then on there was no need for a clean-room implementation as they could pick and choose bits from both and it became very quickly impossible to figure out what bits of the mutant came from which source, and therefore pretty much impossible to prosecute.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Sigmoid on February 14, 2017, 11:46:46 am
All the last of the Amiga's, etc had USB and many of the other industry standards, it wasn't openenss that allowed IBM (PC) to win.   

Part of it was .gov contracts which required second supplier so the Intel/AMD/etc partnership was formed to have a second supplier for the main chips.
The architecture was open. The only (read literally, ONLY) closed part of the IBM PC, the only thing IBM actually created, was the BIOS. It was all open reference stuff. It's like they took a "how to build a generic computer for dummies" kit, put it together and slapped the logo on it.

There was nothing open about it. Compaq enabled that by pouring a metric crapton of money into a clean room clone of the BIOS. *That* is what enabled the flood of clones. A whole heap of people looked at it and went "hey, we can do that". From then on there was no need for a clean-room implementation as they could pick and choose bits from both and it became very quickly impossible to figure out what bits of the mutant came from which source, and therefore pretty much impossible to prosecute.
Yes, the compatibles did start with Compaq, but so did the actual triumph of the PC. Until Compaq it was a reasonably successful business computer, but nowhere even remotely close to market dominance. IBM never truly profited from the rise of the PC. The PC rose by virtue of having been "stolen from" IBM and put in "public domain".

And as I said, it WAS open 99%. The BIOS wasn't open, and how hard was it to create a cleanroom reimplementation of that - as evidenced by all the companies who did this, it wasn't too hard. Note, this could never ever have happened to the Amiga or even the C64. Nobody could have made a 'C64 compatible'. A Macintosh compatible, that was beyond dreams. Copying an entire architecture without infringing on patents, and cleanrooming a few kilobytes of system code are lightyears apart.

Software was the real big win, Microsoft software.  The first question over any Amiga/Atari, etc sale was can it run MSOffice/excel/word.
You're confusing time periods and causality. Early Microsoft software was demonstrably inferior. Excel was inferior to Lotus, Word was inferior to WordStar.

It was the other way around. Microsoft software only became popular due to the rise of the PC, which was due to the availability of cheap compatibles. The reason that people asked in the dying days of Atari or Amiga if it runs MS Word was that PC compatibles have already won the war, and everyone ran MS Word at work by that time.

The thing Microsoft did contribute to the compatibles ecosystem was being an independent OS vendor. If PC DOS was actually an IBM exclusive product, the lack of a compatible OS could have prevented the rise of 100% PC compatibles. Since PC DOS was only a rebranded MS DOS... well we know the story.

Developing for multiple platforms isn't that big of a deal, look at firefox, chrome, thunderbird, ApacheOpen/LibreOffice, KiCad, etc.  Running parallel versions for win/mac/linux isn't much work that running parallel for win/mac/linux/amiga.
It was back then. Besides, don't compare running different OSes on the same architecture and same CPU to having different architectures, different CPUs, etc. Yes, the GNU ecosystem can live on a wide range of architectures thanks to the immense work put into their optimizing C compiler(s). But that took immense effort.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 14, 2017, 12:05:17 pm
Add to the pile of turd Adobe. I installed Adobe Reader onto my new build (first for about four years) last night and it wanted a restart. I'd imagine so it can install some shitty service that'll install updates every hour or two to fix the daily offering of security vulns in its unnecessary bloat.

Adobe are another outfit heavily pushing you to their cloud and subscription services like it or not.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 14, 2017, 12:09:46 pm
Back in the day it was quite tricky to cross-develop for many architectures. Mostly because we did not have things like Java and .Net which run code in a managed environment. Back in the day it was pure Assembly, C, different forms of BASIC and Pascal that ruled.

FOr the Amiga part each Kickstart was different, and each Workbench was different and even the hardware was a bit different. It had a lot of compatibility issues so cross compiling stuff would have been a pain and a mess. Though still would have been possible.

MS won because of good marketing, it is as simple as that. Did not matter what crap they were selling, people were buying the lie every time. :-D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 14, 2017, 12:26:34 pm
Add to the pile of turd Adobe. I installed Adobe Reader onto my new build (first for about four years) last night and it wanted a restart. I'd imagine so it can install some shitty service that'll install updates every hour or two to fix the daily offering of security vulns in its unnecessary bloat.

Adobe are another outfit heavily pushing you to their cloud and subscription services like it or not.

There are several alternative PDF readers like Foxit or Evince for example. Adobe's free software is bloated and unsecure, and the automatic update function doesn't work reliable.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 14, 2017, 02:32:26 pm
Add to the pile of turd Adobe. I installed Adobe Reader onto my new build (first for about four years) last night and it wanted a restart. I'd imagine so it can install some shitty service that'll install updates every hour or two to fix the daily offering of security vulns in its unnecessary bloat.

Adobe are another outfit heavily pushing you to their cloud and subscription services like it or not.

There are several alternative PDF readers like Foxit or Evince for example. Adobe's free software is bloated and unsecure, and the automatic update function doesn't work reliable.

I am wondering if, in practice, alternatives work well enough to be a replacement? I guess the only way to figure it out is to try it on my use cases.

One further obnoxious thing is that Windows 10 keeps reverting the default pdf reader to its Edge browser which is a very poor pdf renderer in terms of features. It does make you wonder what Microsoft think they are doing, changing users' preferred settings in such an arrogant way.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 14, 2017, 03:27:36 pm
Been using okular for a long time now, haven't bothered to install adobe in years.  Pretty much don't need flash either.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 14, 2017, 03:38:06 pm

One further obnoxious thing is that Windows 10 keeps reverting the default pdf reader to its Edge browser

It should only revert to defaults when you get a feature upgrade (the same as Windows version change, like jumping from 7 to 8.1 but in this case from Win 10 version xxxx to 1607, which is the current one )

Windows does this because the upgrade comes as a whole package, and in order for being able to demonstrate all the new features working together, the defaults has to be enabled. It is a good idea to check these settings and many others every time you get a new feature upgrade (one is behind the corner already and will be released within a few months).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 14, 2017, 03:40:10 pm
I've used SumatraPDF for years. No install, just unzip it to a folder and run. Very lightweight and does not run active content within pdfs. Also, the last couple of Windows 7 re-installs, I have not bothered with the flashplayer and haven't missed it a bit. Glad it's gone actually.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rsjsouza on February 14, 2017, 04:01:06 pm
I use an older version of Foxit installed a few years ago at my work computer and I like it, but the interface in later versions is a bit crowded for my taste.
Today I downloaded an old friend of mine from many years ago: Ghostscript and its companion Windows viewer Ghostview. It was a great surprise to see a clean and simple interface with a reasonable renderer (supporting also XPS and the original PS).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 14, 2017, 04:39:17 pm

One further obnoxious thing is that Windows 10 keeps reverting the default pdf reader to its Edge browser

It should only revert to defaults when you get a feature upgrade (the same as Windows version change, like jumping from 7 to 8.1 but in this case from Win 10 version xxxx to 1607, which is the current one )

Windows does this because the upgrade comes as a whole package, and in order for being able to demonstrate all the new features working together, the defaults has to be enabled. It is a good idea to check these settings and many others every time you get a new feature upgrade (one is behind the corner already and will be released within a few months).

Perhaps it's changed recently, but pretty much every other week the POS would reset Edge to be the default PDF viewer. It's a pretty well documented hijacking feature (i.e., pretty much every time it did any update).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: MagicSmoker on February 14, 2017, 04:50:30 pm
I use an older version of Foxit installed a few years ago at my work computer and I like it, but the interface in later versions is a bit crowded for my taste.

100% agree on this. I recently updated from 6.2.something to v8.2.something and the new UI is a hot mess. I like that I can restore my tabs after closing and restarting now, but all the notifications, cloud reader crap and bloated menu bars are a real turn-off.

Still better than Acrobat by a long shot, though.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: enz on February 14, 2017, 05:54:09 pm
When it comes to PDF-Reader, I use SumatraPDF since a few years.
Very nice and reduced user interface.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 14, 2017, 06:47:52 pm
Sumatra is great, I got so fed up with Adobe Reader that I went out searching for a replacement and found that, I never looked back. It's so much better than Adobe Reader in every way I can find. My computer is now Adobe-free and it's remarkable how much less trouble I have with it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: JPortici on February 14, 2017, 06:54:52 pm
I am wondering if, in practice, alternatives work well enough to be a replacement? I guess the only way to figure it out is to try it on my use cases.

Foxit is a true alternative. My colleague suggested that i try it because i needed a pdf printer too
you have to fine tune it a little:
-there are ads and logins but you can turn off them.. why have them in the first place i ask
-the rendering isn't 100% like on adobe but you get used to it
-you can have tabs (:--) or different windows (:-+) for when you open a file
-you can hide all toolbars if you want to maximise the reading area without going into fullscreen
etc.

the pdf printer actually works, contrary to most other free ones.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Whales on February 16, 2017, 10:14:27 am
Sumatra PDF is great on windows.  It uses the mupdf backend to render the documents and I've found mupdf to be a great option the past few years.  Some prior work I had involved everything from multi-hundred page text PDFs and diagrams to photo collection PDFs.  Sumatra opened and worked with everything quickly and reliably, Adobe Acrobat was the exact opposite.

It's sad to see many websites still telling people to install Adobe Acrobat to view PDFs.  All of the features that Acrobat has a foot over free alternatives for, bar it's good printing options, seem to be non-standard.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: stargonjie on February 17, 2017, 02:13:54 am
Cortana disgustingly useless, I try and try, she's always asleep or drinking tea. Slow as molasses, I give up.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 17, 2017, 07:25:36 am
Cortana disgustingly useless, I try and try, she's always asleep or drinking tea. Slow as molasses, I give up.

Cortana is awesome, once you know how to speak to her (which may be a bit tricky). She's a bit stupid still though and she keep forgetting context in long conversations. Her Bing search should also be improved a lot before she would become really useful. I find searching using Google gives much better WEB results. But for overall interactions with Windows, Cortana is great. :-D
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 17, 2017, 04:22:34 pm
Pretty much all "she" does is open a search in Bing, a nearly useless search engine. I absolutely hate talking to machines too, it's much quicker and easier to simply type the search myself. Cortana is a gimmick, and a data harvesting Trojan horse.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 17, 2017, 07:00:41 pm
Hahhhah, you have no idea how to use Cortana then. Shes not just a search engine for the web. I bet you don't even use a fraction of the new Windows 10 features. :-)

HINT: Guys, learn how to use features before you say it's all bad and terrible.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 17, 2017, 07:23:29 pm
I played around with it for a bit, but since I hate to talk to computers, how is it easier to use Cortana than to just type what I want to search for? Enlighten us please, what can Cortana do that is so fantastic and how is it useful to me? I work in a cubicle farm so we couldn't talk to our computers during the day even if we wanted to, it would be far too distracting. Perhaps with what I use my computer for the new features simply do not offer anything that benefits me? Have you considered that not everyone's needs are the same as yours? No, I probably don't use a fraction of the new Windows 10 "features" because I don't need them. I don't use mobile apps on my PC, I have a smartphone for that. I don't use Onedrive, it's against company policy to store proprietary data on external systems. I don't use Edge, I have a real browser that supports Adblock and has for years. I don't use the live tiles, I want a flexible start menu where I can organize all the software into folders in the order I see fit. I don't want a search bar in the task bar, I use that space to pin frequently used programs and keep track of what's running. You probably don't use a fraction of the features either, so you find Cortana useful, great, I don't. I'm sure there are features I find useful that you don't care about. I'm perfectly capable of using new features if they benefit my workflow but it would have to be a very great benefit for me to tolerate the fugly touch-optimized UI that comes in 10, along with the forced updates that mean MS can screw with my settings any time they want. I mean if I had a dollar for every time my work laptop has reverted back to Edge as the pdf reader, that just makes my blood boil every time that happens. I'm the user, I expect software to adapt to *my* needs, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 17, 2017, 07:49:44 pm
Any Windows version can be bent to the users will, including 10. Learn to use Windows and you will find out. It's just a matter of enough will power.

OneDrive does not have to be connected to anything or it does not have to be connected to Microsoft Azure. But it can. It can also be connected to your own private "cloud".

If your company has configured Windows properly, as it should be for proper workflow, none of your settings would revert after an upgrade of edition, including application defaults like Edge and also security settings or other things that has been preconfigured properly.

If Universal Windows Platform is such an annoyance, then the Enterprise edition of Windows is the way to go. Has all the "mobile" apps disabled by default. Even Cortana stays quiet.

I use most Windows features that comes with it. Even features that are not visible by default, but can be found buried within the folder structure of Windows. I even use the Linux sub-system that exists in latest Windows. Has a lot of powerful BASH tools, and Linux users know what those tools are and what they are useful for.

At first I thought Windows 10 and even 8 was ridiculous. But after I took the time to really understand Windows, I realized it's on the right track and it's moving forward exactly as it should.

With Windows today, whatever I was working on, on my computer, I can keep working on using my mobile, if I have to run. And once I get to my destination, I can use that local computer to continue working on the stuff edited on the mobile. There is a lot of stuff that can be shared in real time between any device. This is the MS vision, and I start to love it more and more every day, despite a lot of bugs still in the latest features.

EDIT: OH, almost forgot...Edge supports AdBlock. No problems. And soon it will support every plugin that works on Chrome. This is because the plugin architecture and API are the same on both browsers.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 17, 2017, 08:14:50 pm
Sure, I can customize it to my liking if I try hard enough, but the effort is far less to simply use Win7 instead or even Linux. I'm going to take the path of least resistance. Why should I have to summon immense will power to bend the OS to fit my needs when other systems are available that already do almost exactly what I want with very few changes?

Yes in an ideal world the company computers would be better configured and we would have the Enterprise version but let me know when you find a company that has everything set up just right, and IT guys who have enough time and patience to figure out precisely how each person works and set up an optimal configuration for each individual. That ideal world is pure fantasy, I've worked at a number of different companies and none of them were anything like that. Maybe you should call up our CEO and IT guys and tell them how it's done.

If you can make continuum work for yourself then great, but it's useless to me. I don't do productivity on my phone, it's a small device that fits in my pocket, I use it for texting, phone calls, GPS navigation, check emails and occasionally looking up something online and that's about it. A phone that is big enough to comfortably edit a document, spreadsheet or anything like that is going to be much more bulky than I want a phone to be. Good luck writing code or designing a PCB layout on a phone. I get the MS vision but it's a fool's errand. A very niche set of circumstances that will be convenient for a small fraction of the ~1.5% of smartphone users who have a Windows phone but useless for most people. People who want to do work on a portable device have laptops. Out of everybody I know there are 3 people who have Windows phones, one of those is a current MS employee and the other two are former MS employees. The platform is dead on the vine, it would have vanished years ago if not for the fact that it is buoyed by other MS products and services.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 17, 2017, 09:03:50 pm
Did I say I have a Windows Phone? Assumptions!

I see now that the problem is the attitude, not the OS. We have nothing more to discuss regarding this matter.

The problem with most companies is that the guys in charge don't have a clue about how a system should be configured, and in most cases the IT departments hands are tied because of this fact. I have worked in big enough global companies (not MS) to know this. In most cases the left hand does not have a clue what the right hand is doing, the head does not have a clue or don't wanna listen to what the left and the right hand should be doing and because of this all is out of sync.

The head of the IT department should have at least 2-5 valid IT certificates (has to be renewed) in order to be a proficient enough decision maker regarding the IT infrastructure and how it should be run. Most companies don't pay attention to these details and all workers suffer. Certificates don't come easily and most IT "specialist" would most likely fail the first time.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on February 17, 2017, 09:19:48 pm
I see now that the problem is the attitude, not the OS. We have nothing more to discuss regarding this matter.
::)
Your OS is a tool that is supposed to make your life easier and your work more efficient.  Forcing the user to jump through hoops in order to disable spyware, revert settings that are changed without notice or permission, and re-order their work style in order to operate how the OS wants them to operate, is not the right way to accomplish that.  Of course all of this will probably fall on deaf ears, since apparently anybody who disagrees with how MS does things has an "attitude problem"...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 17, 2017, 09:24:19 pm
 I was with you up to the claim on certs. SOME certs actually require knowledge of the products - particularly the Citrix ones where you actually do a lab practicum. This is how it SHOULD be But others, like the Microsoft certs? Those are utter and complete  :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit: 0 experience, but 5 certs, vs 10+ years experience working with the products and no certs? If you've bought in to the Microsoft kool-aid, you'd toss the resume of the second one. But I have many experiences over a (so far) 29 year career that will show why that would be foolish. Direct case in point, I have been installing and configuring Microsoft email solutions since Microsoft Mail, before Exchange. Hundreds of successful implementations, I went to take the Microsoft Exchange certification exam. ANd failed. Their tests have no bearing on real world examples, and you must memorize EVERYTHING since unliek the real world you are not allowed any of the tools you normally have access to. Back in the day, Novell did it right. The tests were complex enough that you needed to know the material, as you would never complete enough to pass if you had t look up every question. But you were allowed to bring books and reference material along to the exam.
 I have also experienced multi times when I am called in to fix a problem and the client contact, who has every cube wall papered with certifications, disparages me for not having any certs, yet they are unable t solve the problem themselves. ANd working for a Microsoft partner, we have to maintain various certifications to maintain that partner status. In addition, new rules require the point person for each discipline to be a different person - ie one person can't pass 4 different tests and count as one of the people for all 4 tracks. WHy not? Just to make you spend MORE money on taking their exams. It's an out and out scam, at lest the Microsoft ones.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 17, 2017, 09:35:58 pm
I'm not going to say certs are a bad thing, but there is certainly a type of person who anyone who works at a large-ish company will run into sooner or later, who excels at earning various certs but when it comes to practical application of skills they are useless. I distinctly remember interviewing more than one candidate who had a PhD in EE and an impressive looking resume but when I actually talked to them they did not impress me at all, lacking even some fairly basic problem solving skills. Some others with relatively modest education ended up being far more impressive at actually doing useful work. Also I've earned various certs over the years and recently threw out a few of my certificates when I realized I have not touched the stuff in several years and have no recollection of what I learned. A lot of these things are "use it or lose it", a wall of certs says nothing about the knowledge or skills one currently possesses.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: nctnico on February 18, 2017, 01:06:26 am
When it comes to PDF-Reader, I use SumatraPDF since a few years.
Can you disable anti-aliasing in this? Foxit is unusable to me because the anti-aliasing which makes anything completely unreadable to me cannot be disabled.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: ovnr on February 18, 2017, 02:56:57 am
Any Windows version can be bent to the users will, including 10. Learn to use Windows and you will find out. It's just a matter of enough will power.

If you require "enough willpower" to get to grips with an OS, the OS is not doing its job. It's supposed to stay in the background and Just Work. Not require hours of un-fucking every time MS decides to "enhance" it further.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: tronde on February 18, 2017, 03:53:53 am

If Universal Windows Platform is such an annoyance, then the Enterprise edition of Windows is the way to go.

Where can small companies buy enterprise?
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 18, 2017, 04:01:43 am
When it comes to PDF-Reader, I use SumatraPDF since a few years.
Can you disable anti-aliasing in this? Foxit is unusable to me because the anti-aliasing which makes anything completely unreadable to me cannot be disabled.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "anti-aliasing", but it wouldn't be much trouble to test it out yourself. SumatraPDF is only about a 6 MB download, and only needs to be unzipped to run (does not require any special "installation" and doesn't write to registry).
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 18, 2017, 08:10:01 am
Certifications aren't everything, but they do give you visibility of product features that you'd otherwise not be aware of, or would only pick up by chance.

What they don't give you are analytical skills. You can have certs coming out of every orifice but it doesn't mean you know how to efficiently troubleshoot, or architect solutions to fit into your typical environments full of legacy technology, or teach you how to be a reasonable human being. There is a lot more to life than certs.

As an example, at a place where I do a bit of consulting recently let someone go who, on paper, is incredibly well appointed including a Cambridge degree along with a string of certs. He was disruptive but in a bad way. While he was very good at coming up with random solutions, they only fitted his blinkered utopian world, they were mostly useless when it came to integrating with existing infrastructure, process and operations. Not a week would go by without some new point solution based on products that no-one had any experience of. He'd work fine in a greenfield startup where this kind of disruption is de rigeur, but not in the world of big corp enterprise.

What was worse was that he called himself a data architect. I remember the day he sent me a long email where he pulled rank and called himself that, I nearly fell off my chair! A case of Peter Principal if ever there was one.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 18, 2017, 10:23:48 am

If Universal Windows Platform is such an annoyance, then the Enterprise edition of Windows is the way to go.

Where can small companies buy enterprise?

From Microsoft. Contact a Microsoft representative and off you go.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 18, 2017, 10:25:41 am
Certifications aren't everything, but they do give you visibility of product features that you'd otherwise not be aware of, or would only pick up by chance.

What they don't give you are analytical skills. You can have certs coming out of every orifice but it doesn't mean you know how to efficiently troubleshoot, or architect solutions to fit into your typical environments full of legacy technology, or teach you how to be a reasonable human being. There is a lot more to life than certs.

As an example, at a place where I do a bit of consulting recently let someone go who, on paper, is incredibly well appointed including a Cambridge degree along with a string of certs. He was disruptive but in a bad way. While he was very good at coming up with random solutions, they only fitted his blinkered utopian world, they were mostly useless when it came to integrating with existing infrastructure, process and operations. Not a week would go by without some new point solution based on products that no-one had any experience of. He'd work fine in a greenfield startup where this kind of disruption is de rigeur, but not in the world of big corp enterprise.

What was worse was that he called himself a data architect. I remember the day he sent me a long email where he pulled rank and called himself that, I nearly fell off my chair! A case of Peter Principal if ever there was one.

Exactly! A piece of paper does not change who we are, but it gives a good indication of what we know, or at least should know. What it does not tell is if we can solve the problems given to us, based on the knowledge we have. :-)
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 18, 2017, 10:51:10 am
@rrinker

Either you understand Windows and it's solutions or you don't. A certification is a good measurement of how much you understand of it. If it's too difficult to pass a certification exam without a bunch of books to assist, then maybe Windows management is not your thing. Windows, is not complicated, once you understand the core functionality it should be fairly simple to pass any certification exam. But you have to understand the system as a whole, not just a small part of it or you will fail.

Almost anybody could pass an exam with a step by step guide on how to do things, but what's the point? How much does that person really know and understand? I'd say, pretty much nothing.

Having a lot of experience does not make you a good IT-specialist. Especially if you have been doing it all wrong the whole time. You need both correct methods and experience in order to be called a specialist.

EDIT: All this applies to Windows, Linux, OS X and any other OS there is, including the software that comes with it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 18, 2017, 11:30:09 pm
 I can assure you I have not been "doing this wrong" for 29 years. It has nothing to do with the understanding of the material - the questions are specifically designed to make the exam more difficult that just knowing the material. Again - do it as a practicum, like Citrix and Cisco do, and you REALLY have an idea of the candidate knows the material or not. Multiple choice tests where it's 100% wrong if it says "pick all" and you get 2 out of the 3 do nothing but generate revenue.
 Half my down time, I'm helping the guy 2 cubes down try to solve customer problems. He has passed the Windows Server and the Exchange exam series. He has pretty close to 0 troubleshooting ability, unless the exact error messages results in a Google hit for the one and only solution. Usually things are much more complex than that. I'll suggest a course of action and he is usually responds with "I think I read about that somewhere" The way he works is the Microsoft Exam way - every little thing in isolation, no big picture look at the whole system. A fault in one system can easily just be a symptom of the real problem in a (seemingly) unrelated system - one needs to look at the whole system if the most basic troubleshooting fails to resolve the problem.
 My 29 years is post degree. While in college I worked in the computer shop, and also as my summer job for a couple of years. And 'playing' with computers and electronics - that goes even firther back in my childhood. Another thing is all these new guys have passed the latest version exam, so they see what might be problems in the current version of the product, but not every customer has the latest version yet - and when there are such massive changes such as between Exchange 2003, 2007, 2010, and 2013 (2016 didn't change much), they are easily lost without the practical experience. Again, the "Microsoft Way" on the exams assumes a nice clean latest versions of everything environment - which is almost NEVER the case, even the completely new system I just finished setting up, they run a critical line of business app where the app vendor will not support running the database on anything newer that SQL Server 2008. That sort of thing always annoys me, especially when you look in the database and there are no stored procedures which could be using code that is deprecated in newer versions. Nope, just your basic collection of data tables. And if you try it, it will work just fine on SQL 2014, or maybe even 2016. However, the software vendor will then blame any and all problems on the fact that you are using too new a version. Instead of unsupported end of life stuff... uggh.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on February 18, 2017, 11:42:27 pm
Quote
a good IT-specialist

Talking about a loaded phrase!!!

"good"
"IT"
"specialist"


"Good" to a) yourself,  b) your employer or c) the "customer" or in what proportion?

"IT" .  Every  individual or company has it's own definition of what they will "handle" as part of their "IT services" usually skewed towards b above :)
Example: "Per our contact we only support networked printers" for example." Spoken by a two man "IT services" "company".

"Specialist": Well...this can easily negate the above two depending on the specialty.
Tehre are lots of "It specialists" out there  and if you went by their "specialty" you'd need a whole heard of them to "handle" everything.

In general, it's a lot easier for someone to walk into a situation, tear up everything, and replace it with fresh new stuff. 
Replacing switches and rewiring the building only to find out during the "teardown" there were two intermittent RJ-45 jacks feeding two of the switches. But hey, the customer already paid for the new switches and the rewiring so what's the problem? ... right..... ?

But I'll stop ranting now before I start letting you know how I really feel  ....
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 19, 2017, 08:59:34 am
Don't let me get started on many Software and Database usage.

All I am going to say is:

Jeeez, they don't have a clue how to properly design a database and how to use it. A lot of freaking software hacks in the application and the DB is half built and does not even resemble a real Relational Data Base. This is not just MSSQL, but is the same for all DB solutions out there. No wonder there may or may not be incompabilities. A properly built database should be able to port to next version without a glitch and the software should run just fine after the upgrade.

Note, not all applications with DBs are bad, though it may sound like I think that. :-D

What comes to certs, the application and OS foundation has not changed much for the last 10-15 years. Just a few new feature and a few removed feature. Those MS certs are made difficult on purpose. It's a really good thing, because one small mistake during your setup could break the whole system. So a few mistakes in the exam causes you to fail. It's a good thing. We don't want people to administer out important stuff with half knowledge. A business values the money and the uptime. A lot of downtime is very expensive. For example, the previous company I worked for, for each downtime hour because a configuration error in the software, the company lost about $250,000 in revenue. It took them 5 days to find and fix the problem. That is 5 x 24 x $250000 = $30 000 000 lost money.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on February 19, 2017, 02:13:17 pm
SumatraPDF is only about a 6 MB download, and only needs to be unzipped to run (does not require any special "installation" and doesn't write to registry).

I'm using an old version of Foxit, have been for some time.  I don't like what they did with the newer versions.  Portable applications are great (ones that don't need an installation).  I've always liked programs like that and it's good to see them becoming more popular.  So I'll have to take note of that Sumatra reader if I have to ditch my old version of Foxit for some reason.

I don't like Adobe products much.  The ones I've come across have caused me problems over the years.  I was very happy to ditch their PDF reader.  I've ditched their Flash player and haven't missed it much.  A few web sites here and there still use that awful thing, but it's generally not a problem.  There's a few big companies like Adobe that put out crap software, but usually it's easy avoid their products.  That's not so much the case with PC operating systems.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on February 19, 2017, 02:42:05 pm
Any Windows version can be bent to the users will, including 10. Learn to use Windows and you will find out. It's just a matter of enough will power.

Sure, I can customize it to my liking if I try hard enough, but the effort is far less to simply use Win7 instead or even Linux. I'm going to take the path of least resistance. Why should I have to summon immense will power to bend the OS to fit my needs when other systems are available that already do almost exactly what I want with very few changes?

One thing positive I have to say about MS is they've always provided an ability to tweak Windows to your liking, though it may be rather involved to do so.  It would be nice if I could just load the OS and use it without the need to go mucking around in the internals.  That's never been the case with Windows.  Every new version requires more and more of that nonsense.  It took a good amount of work to get Win7 working the way I like.  Win10 is going to be an even bigger job.  That sort of defeats the point.  Ideally it should be a small matter.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 19, 2017, 03:42:24 pm

One thing positive I have to say about MS is they've always provided an ability to tweak Windows to your liking,

Thats not really a positive thing about windows because you can tweak any OS to your liking (well Apple stuff thats debatable).  Open source OS's will have an advantage there.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: madires on February 19, 2017, 03:46:55 pm
Any Windows version can be bent to the users will, including 10. Learn to use Windows and you will find out. It's just a matter of enough will power.

I prefer an OS which keeps its privacy settings and doesn't reset them to user-unfriendly defaults after some update again, again and again. There are tools for mitigating that issue, but if I need a tool for that kind of stuff it feels simply wrong. And the latest developments regarding data protection for data transfered from the EU to the US and data stored by US companies are indicating that trouble is ahead. I'm talking about Trump's EO about the handling of data of non-US people by 3-letter agencies and a new court decision about data stored outside the US (Google vs. FBI). The EU asked for a clarification of the EO already, because the EO could render the new agreement about data transfers obsolete. The impact would be that no data may be transfered from the EU to the US anymore. And the other topic (data stored outside the US by US companies) is very important too. If US law enforcement can access data stored in the EU directly, it would become illegal for EU companies (and citizens?) to use any cloud/email/whatever service of an US company. Both issues wll also have a huge impact on Microsoft. Besides that, with Win10 MS is very likely violating two German laws, which needs further investigation. I've written about that a few pages earlier.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Cerebus on February 19, 2017, 07:00:11 pm
From Microsoft. Contact a Microsoft representative and off you go.

Remember to take a long spoon...
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 19, 2017, 08:09:15 pm
From Microsoft. Contact a Microsoft representative and off you go.

Remember to take a long spoon...

As if the average employee has any say on the matter. My employer is too cheap to go for the enterprise version so we have Win10 Pro on our Windows boxes. It's not my choice, it's not the choice of the IT guy at my location, but it's what we have. In the real world this sort of thing happens and regardless of my opinion on the matter, it is what it is.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 20, 2017, 06:50:10 am
One big problem with applications with strong RDBMS dependancy is that typically programmers don't have great SQL skills, and find the SQL part a chore compared to hacking their Java and C#. Problems are often around query efficiency, getting the balance right between set based and procedural programming, understanding isolation levels, transactional integrity and avoiding application turning.

This is one reason why NoSql* databases have become popular. In some cases you don't need all the locking done for you, like Twitter or Facebook for example, but for financial applications or eCommerce where the results must be repeatable and precise, you'd be nuts to do it with a NoSql solution.

There was a wonderful Embedded FM a year or so ago with a lady of a similar vintage to me discussed how she'd realised the need to have database programmers as a different hire to a Java or C# programmer. Until I'd heard that show I just thought Joe Average programmers were lazy and crap with RDBMSs, but now I realise that for many it's such a fundamentally different thought process and discipline you need to segregate the two areas if you're to avoid nasty surprises.

*NoSql databases are not new, I was programming Pick based databases in the late 80s which have many of the fundamental facets of today's new fangled NoSql solutions.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 20, 2017, 09:04:29 am
One big problem with applications with strong RDBMS dependancy is that typically programmers don't have great SQL skills, and find the SQL part a chore compared to hacking their Java and C#. Problems are often around query efficiency, getting the balance right between set based and procedural programming, understanding isolation levels, transactional integrity and avoiding application turning.

This is one reason why NoSql* databases have become popular. In some cases you don't need all the locking done for you, like Twitter or Facebook for example, but for financial applications or eCommerce where the results must be repeatable and precise, you'd be nuts to do it with a NoSql solution.

There was a wonderful Embedded FM a year or so ago with a lady of a similar vintage to me discussed how she'd realised the need to have database programmers as a different hire to a Java or C# programmer. Until I'd heard that show I just thought Joe Average programmers were lazy and crap with RDBMSs, but now I realise that for many it's such a fundamentally different thought process and discipline you need to segregate the two areas if you're to avoid nasty surprises.

*NoSql databases are not new, I was programming Pick based databases in the late 80s which have many of the fundamental facets of today's new fangled NoSql solutions.

Yes, this is exactly how it is. And decoupling the DB from the application solves most of the issues. An application should not care where the data comes from and the DB should do most of the stuff regarding the data and the DB management, not the application as it often is.

As if the average employee has any say on the matter. My employer is too cheap to go for the enterprise version so we have Win10 Pro on our Windows boxes. It's not my choice, it's not the choice of the IT guy at my location, but it's what we have. In the real world this sort of thing happens and regardless of my opinion on the matter, it is what it is.

A small company should have no trouble getting Windows Enterprise. Even an old employee of mine, who has a really small 5 person company, has Windows Server and Windows Enterprise. And the price is not that steep to overcome if you purchase the system as a a package. You can get decent deals even through companies that sell you the whole system, including hardware.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 20, 2017, 09:21:53 am
Regarding the Enterprise version, if you want to avoid force updates, you will have no choice but to host a Windows server running WSUS or SCCM to control and distribute updates, and unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, it won't even install without such a server.

For five desktops, frankly it's simply not worth it. WSUS and SCCM are enterprise tools and have an appropriately matching price tag in terms of software cost and administrative overhead. You probably need to think in terms of >25 desks and a full time IT team with cover to justify it.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 20, 2017, 02:51:38 pm
WSUS is free. SCCM - that is expensive. And takes a lot to set up and maintain. WSUS is actually pretty easy to manage - got plenty of clients that don;t have any IT people on staff using it to keep all their systems in sync.

 PICK, eh? I was doing one of the PC versions in the late 80's - Advanced Revelation. There are STILL things that could be done with that that you can't do with SQL databases. And it wasn't slow - that network had genuine IBM PCs as workstations with a Novell 68b file server and their proprietary STP network - 2 pairs of somewhere around #20 in a shielded cable, DB9 connectors on each end. Ran a massive 115Kbps.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 20, 2017, 08:09:21 pm
People seem to think that just because Windows Enterprise has the name Enterprise, it means it's expensive and you have to have tens if not even hundreds of computers in order for it to be worth while.

A good business that makes any kind of money selling stuff or services has at least one server, preferably 2 because SQL is recommended to be installed as a separate instance because it eats all available RM for caching, and at least 2 workstations.

Buying Windows Standard Server (gives the right to install 2 servers) and a few Windows Enterprise (usually 4 or 5) licenses, takes you very far. And it's not gonna make your business go bankrupt. Then you have all the tools you need to make a working system.

One has to consult MS for a proper deal. I don't know what the exact minimum would be if you buy it all as a package deal.

No need for System Center, that is meant for managing hundreds and thousands of computers with a few mouse clicks.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 20, 2017, 11:02:22 pm
Used to be you could buy enterprise at 5 licenses.  It started to make sense for me to get an enterprise Office license for my family of 4.  Made more sense though to switch to OpenOffice and not be bothered with licensing.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: james_s on February 21, 2017, 02:17:15 am
Enterprise is relatively expensive, and it's a huge pain in the ass to set that all up at home compared to simply running Win7 which also gives me a much nicer UI.

You'll find once you work at a typical job that you have no say in the matter though. You will run what they give you, you will do things the way the IT department wants you to, sometimes it will seem back asswards and decisions that are made will make you roll your eyes. If you start complaining and telling the IT guy that he's an idiot or should do this/that/the other thing, he/she will get annoyed and make your life unpleasant. I've worked at several different places, large, medium and small companies and that is how it was at all of them.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 21, 2017, 08:01:43 am
Enterprise is relatively expensive, and it's a huge pain in the ass to set that all up at home compared to simply running Win7 which also gives me a much nicer UI.

You'll find once you work at a typical job that you have no say in the matter though. You will run what they give you, you will do things the way the IT department wants you to, sometimes it will seem back asswards and decisions that are made will make you roll your eyes. If you start complaining and telling the IT guy that he's an idiot or should do this/that/the other thing, he/she will get annoyed and make your life unpleasant. I've worked at several different places, large, medium and small companies and they that is how it was at all of them.

Yes, enterprise cost a bit more than a Pro license, and you had to make a 3-5 year contract with MS or a vendor. Setting the thing up is not that difficult, but finding and getting the deal can be.

MS has changed their licensing model and from here on you can subscribe for Windows 10 Enterprise E3 for $7 a month (which is not much) and $15 for E5 (contains Windows Defender Advanced Services) which has , and the minimum licenses is 1. So they are making it easier and a lot cheaper.

You are absolutely correct, the average employee usually has no saying in what software the company should use nor how it should be used. As an example, the previous company I worked for, we used Excel for manually entering data logs every 5-10 minutes. That is a totally insane way of using Excel, and often ended up in data corruptions. A much better way would have been to code a simple native program that connects to the main DB, and problem would have been solved. Would have worked much faster too. Other departments used Access for their tasks. And the system as a whole was a complete mess. No one had any saying to this.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 21, 2017, 08:31:02 am
You can control SQL Server's min/max memory from SSMS. This controls its buffer cache.

It's a mistake to fall into the trap of underestimating the cost of designing and maintaining Windows based infrastructure, if you think it's just the software sticker price you're wrong, you need skills either internal or external to set it up properly and maintain it. Giving it to someone as a hobby task is almost certainly not the way to do it. For a small business you're almost certainly better off going to a cloud based solution nowadays. Some years ago SBS (small business server) was a reasonable solution but even that required someone reasonably skilled to properly configure and maintain it.

Expecting Sandra or Jim from Accounts to set up and properly maintain a Windows (or any other) infrastructure as an occasional sideline is not just going to cut it, especially when something breaks. Get someone who knows what they're doing to do it for you and set up a support contract with the right SLAs. Or go cloud.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on February 21, 2017, 02:38:58 pm
Or go cloud.
Or go to Linux, which in my experience is significantly easier to setup and maintain in a server position than Windows Enterprise, not to mention it's free.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 21, 2017, 02:43:43 pm
 The one product they did right was Home Server. It really is effectively maintenance free. I use it because after all day at work doing this I no longer want to come home and maintain my own systems. I NEVER log in to this thing, it just keeps chugging away. There is no mouse or keyboard or display connected to it. The original version was sold as a turnkey system with hardware from HP and a couple of others, but the HP server was severely underpowered and suffered from the bane of every consumer grade NAS as well - limited drive bays. I just built my own but aside from PC assembly it's not required any real attention. Adding a user or a new computer is even easier than Small Business Server. There's no mail server, no SQL server, no Sharepoint like SBS, so much less to manage. And it was cheap.
 And then they discontinued it! I would much rather a Server 2016 based Home Server than 2016 Essentials.



Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 21, 2017, 02:46:22 pm
Or go cloud.
Or go to Linux, which in my experience is significantly easier to setup and maintain in a server position than Windows Enterprise, not to mention it's free.

For a small business with no real computer person? Please. Someone who, if you're lucky, can know how to add a user or reset a password and still might need help with that is not going to be able to manage a Linux system.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: CraigHB on February 21, 2017, 03:08:07 pm
That's the thing about Linux, it's typically more involved to set things up.  You really have to be well versed in computer systems to use it.  That's not something the guy from accounting could take on.  I could run Linux myself, I've set up systems before, but it always seems more involved.  Though after what it took to get Win7 running the way I want there's not so much of a difference anymore.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rdl on February 21, 2017, 03:54:39 pm
Windows Home Server was pretty good. It's too bad they discontinued it. I ran it on an HP Microserver Gen 7 for years. Still have it actually, but it's only turned on occasionally to make tertiary backups of a FreeNAS machine.

The only thing bad about it was the the buggy, bloated "client" software (which wasn't really needed but was pushed as a "feature"). It required something like 6 or 7 additional services to be running on the client machine, which wrote log files non-stop, and had a bad habit of reporting errors with no information as to what the problem was.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on February 21, 2017, 04:11:59 pm
That's the thing about Linux, it's typically more involved to set things up.  You really have to be well versed in computer systems to use it.
Have you tried a modern Windows Enterprise?  Just a couple of pages ago slicendice claimed that to be a decent Windows sysadmin you need no less than FIVE (5) certifications.  Agree with that number or not, that's the rough level of knowledge (education or experience) needed to properly run a Windows Enterprise environment.  How is that any better than Linux?

I am very well versed in computer systems, and it still took me literally days and multiple phone calls and emails to multiple Microsoft Authorized Partners to figure out the licensing requirements to set up ONE computer that TWO people could RDP into and run Office and one other piece of software.  Over a thousand dollars in labor spent just to figure out the licensing requirements for a trivially simple application, and that's not even counting the additional $2k+ required on the actual licenses themselves.  After a few of these systems you would easily have paid enough in research and licensing to cover the cost of figuring out Linux, and from then on it's free...Windows will keep charging you, again and again, every machine you set up, every service you try to add to it.  And it's STILL a POS with spyware embedded into the core of the OS, requiring days of labor to clean up all of the crap and get it running how it should have come from the factory.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on February 21, 2017, 04:14:00 pm
Or go cloud.
Or go to Linux, which in my experience is significantly easier to setup and maintain in a server position than Windows Enterprise, not to mention it's free.

For a small business with no real computer person? Please. Someone who, if you're lucky, can know how to add a user or reset a password and still might need help with that is not going to be able to manage a Linux system.

They're not going to be able to navigate the Windows Enterprise licensing structure either, or figure out all of the arbitrary rules MS has put in place requiring multiple machines to run different services because MS doesn't want them running on the same computer.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 21, 2017, 04:23:02 pm
Microsoft's horrendously complex licensing is an industry joke, and they keep changing it and adding bits on. It's like doing a tax return. Maybe Sandra and Jim from accounts would be able to figure this bit out!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 21, 2017, 07:02:22 pm
 They're not really arbitrary rules as to what plays together on the same server. Some of the stuff really does not play well together, Small Business Server with it all loaded onto a single server is actually a good example of why it's not recommended to run some of that stuff together. Horrendously slow shutdown and boot times as the various servers get into a race condition on what needs to stop first and what has to wait. Startup being equally messed up as each service grabs a huge chunk of resources before settling down which just delays the next service from starting in an avalanche effect. Eventually it all comes up and is running, but wow.

 As for the WHS client - it's not that huge, it never did anything to any of my machines, and the crazy thing is it still works even with Windows 10. The notifications I get fro it all say something useful (except the you can't truly permanently disable "Windows Firewall is turned off" one). Usually stuff like "server has installed updates" or "<computer on my network> has critical updates to install"

 vs Linux in the small business environment - plenty of non-computer people pick up enough to keep their system going via the SBS console or Essentials Dashboard. No, they don't set the system up, someone like us does that for them. But maintain a Linux system? Not likely.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 21, 2017, 07:26:13 pm
LOL, with Linux administering you have all the same issues as with Windows, and most stuff you have to manage through the BASH or using a web interface. Either you know how to manage a cluster of computers or you don't, does not matter if it is Windows, Linux or Mac, same problem still.

Yes MS licensing is a nightmare, there are so many alternatives and combinations, and the full detailed information can be quite difficult to get your hands on.

Has anybody tried Windows Server 2016 Essentials? It is really really easy to use via the Essentials dashboard. The traditional Server Manager Dashboard is available too though, if one want be in more control.

Either way...Windows is getting really good, there is so much stuff going on behind the scenes that most users won't even notice. And I am not talking about some telemetry data or MS spying on you. MS spying on you is total BS, they respect your privacy. There is a lot of really good change in the core of Windows, including multiple added layers of security that are completely missing in Windows 7 because these features are not built into the core/kernel. ...and more security features are coming with each new edition upgrade because the Windows 10 core allows to do this, where older Windows don't.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: rrinker on February 21, 2017, 07:52:36 pm
 Licensing is easy, if you are big enough to afford it or a qualifying non-profit - just go virtual and buy Server Enterprise for each host. Then you can spin up as many virtual guest servers as you want/need. Otherwise I don't think even the people at Microsoft really understand it - based on the quotes we get.
 It doesn't help that they keep changing it, mostly in response to there now being server CPUs with 18 or more cores.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 21, 2017, 07:56:49 pm
They would do themselves a huge favour just to (a) disable compulsory updates until there is positive user intervention to download or install them and (b) stop hijacking your settings on installing those updates.

I found ads coming up in the Skype window during a call the other day during a long call helping someone fix his embedded bootloader. They don't give a shit about user experience.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Howardlong on February 21, 2017, 08:07:10 pm
Licensing is easy, if you are big enough to afford it or a qualifying non-profit - just go virtual and buy Server Enterprise for each host. Then you can spin up as many virtual guest servers as you want/need. Otherwise I don't think even the people at Microsoft really understand it - based on the quotes we get.
 It doesn't help that they keep changing it, mostly in response to there now being server CPUs with 18 or more cores.

Just the SQL Server 2016 licensing pdf is 32 pages long with more options than an Office 2016 Ribbon. They _have_ to simplify and target a single page.

I totally agree that by far most Microsoft employees don't understand it either, because they don't need to. That is part of the problem.

Interestingly they recently relaxed the SQL Server Standard licensing by enabling a whole bunch of features that were previously on Enterprise on 2016 SP1, and if the grapevine is true their KPIs on SQL Server revenue were plummeting since they massively hiked Enterprise costs and everyone downgraded to Standard.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: suicidaleggroll on February 21, 2017, 08:55:00 pm
They're not really arbitrary rules as to what plays together on the same server. Some of the stuff really does not play well together, Small Business Server with it all loaded onto a single server is actually a good example of why it's not recommended to run some of that stuff together. Horrendously slow shutdown and boot times as the various servers get into a race condition on what needs to stop first and what has to wait. Startup being equally messed up as each service grabs a huge chunk of resources before settling down which just delays the next service from starting in an avalanche effect. Eventually it all comes up and is running, but wow.
Then that's a SUPER shitty design, not surprising though.

LOL, with Linux administering you have all the same issues as with Windows, and most stuff you have to manage through the BASH or using a web interface. Either you know how to manage a cluster of computers or you don't, does not matter if it is Windows, Linux or Mac, same problem still.
Except MS tacks on truckloads of extra crap you have to deal with, such as those already mentioned.  Services not playing nice with each other, requiring extra VMs or extra machines to actually get the job done, a licensing nightmare that keeps changing and they don't even understand, etc.

Either way...Windows is getting really good, there is so much stuff going on behind the scenes that most users won't even notice. And I am not talking about some telemetry data or MS spying on you. MS spying on you is total BS, they respect your privacy.
Oh come on...put the koolaid down, this is ridiculous.  If MS gave two craps about respecting privacy they wouldn't revert your privacy settings on every update back to sharing everything.  If they cared about privacy, these options, such as recording everything you say, everything you type, and everything you do and reporting it back to MS, would be OPT-IN, not OPT-OUT, and certainly not re-opt-out after every system update.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: DimitriP on February 22, 2017, 12:47:48 am
Quote
There is a lot of really good change in the core of Windows, including multiple added layers of security that are completely missing in Windows 7 because these features are not built into the core/kernel. ...and more security features are coming with each new edition upgrade because the Windows 10 core allows to do this, where older Windows don't.



E N O U G H !!!
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: slicendice on February 22, 2017, 10:08:26 am
All you negatives only see the surface, dig deep into Windows and you'll see what is improved.

Having to virtualize or setting up stuff on additional hardware is a good thing, adds an extra layer of security to the whole system because each process is sand boxed and totally separated from each other. You should do the same on Linux too. Plus virtualizing allows the whole system to use its full potential because usually a service only use a few percent of resources.

Buy Skype for business, if ads annoy you. The money for maintaining servers has to come from somewhere. There does not exist "something for nothing", meaning someone has to pay.

If services don't play good together, then the problem is how it is setup.

How do you think the speech recognition engine can learn new accents if the data isn't processed somewhere? What about battery life on a laptop, if everything is processed and analyzed and optimized locally? Same for search keywords you type in. The words and the relationship between returned results and what the user was actually looking for, has to be processed somewhere in order for the service being able to serve you better. What about data storage? Sending the data away helps save storage space and how could any company be able to improve anything if they have no data to work with?

What about millions of different device configurations? How can anything be improved if the one who can make a difference has no data to work with? The information must come from somewhere or a company would not even know what kind of hardware you are using.

Many just expect stuff to work on their computer without even thinking how it was gotten working in the first place. Not helping the developer by not sending some data, will end up in a half baked product and the only one suffering is YOU, the customer.

Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: Marco on February 22, 2017, 11:57:38 am
The design and implementation of security on Windows is improving massively. Shame it's happening at the same exact time they are transforming into a datamining company which wants to sell its users to advertisers.

Google does that better, Apple does security well enough and at this point offers more freedom than Microsoft (on the software side). Microsoft is rapidly losing its raison d'etre.
Title: Re: Windows is getting disgusting
Post by: eugenenine on February 22, 2017, 12:05:40 pm

How do you think the speech recognition engine can learn new accents if the data isn't processed somewhere? What about battery life on a laptop, if everything is processed and analyzed and optimized locally? Same for search keywords you type in. The words and the relationship between returned results and what the user was actually looking for, has to be processed somewhere in order for the service being able to serve you better. What about data storage? Sending the data away helps save storage space and how could any company be able to improve anything if they have no data to work with?

What about millions of different device configurations? How can anything be improved if the one who can make a difference has no data to work with? The information must come from somewhere or a company would not even know what kind of hardware you are using.

Many just expect stuff to work on their computer without even thinking how it was gotten working in the first place. Not helping the developer by not sending some data, will end up in a half bake