Windows is getting disgusting

[rrinker]

 The interface in 10, 2012 R2, and 2016, if maybe you used it for more than 5 minutes so you could set up the important stuff and ditch the garbage defaults, is actually quite usable and makes a lot fo sense even when it's used with a mouse and not a touch screen. First thing I do on any server install is to set up the start menu in 2016 or the 'metro' screen on 2012 R2 to have just function-specific items listed at the top - for say a SQL server it will have SQL Management Studio, SQL Configuration, Powershell, SSDS Editor, whatever make sense. Or a domain control - AD Users and COmputers, GPO Editor, etc. All at the top/first screen, so no scrolling through tons of junk to get the program you need. It's quite clean and effective. No Windows Store or any of that crap on top.

 I have my Windows 10 machines set up the same way. Couple of groups in the start menu, one for Electronics programs like KiCad, Arduino IDE, etc, one for Office apps like Word and Excel, one for model railroad apps like the CAD I use there and JMRI. My main multipurpose desktop also has a games section with all my games.  The workbench computer has no discrete graphics card so I don;t bother with games.

 Being suitable for a touchscreen does not make it unsuitable for clicking with a mouse. Touchscreens are fine for small devices like tablets and phones, easy enough to wipe off the fingerprints but a touch screen PC? Not for me, I don't see the point. Other than my laptop, I don't sit close enough to the screen to make reaching out and fingerprinting it all the comfortable, anyway.

[james_s]

The UI in 10 just looks cheap to me, and I'm forced to use it at work so I've spent quite a bit of time with it. The bright white everywhere and lack of anything separating visual elements gives me a headache. Windows 7 had a beautiful luxurious feeling interface and overall quite good consistency throughout the OS. 10 on the other hand feels like a disjointed mix of mobile-oriented design and vestiges of earlier versions of Windows. The whole UI is very bland and takes minimalism to an extreme, even Windows 3.0 made it easy to differentiate clickable controls and links from static text. It had more customization options in terms of UI colors too, in Win10 I can only pick one color to use as the highlight color.

[rrinker]

 You realize you can change the color scheme and get rid of the bright white, right? I don't think I used the default scheme in ANY Windows, even the oh so vaunted XP.  And now (as in the recent 6 months or so) bright white screens are really a problem for me, so I use a different scheme which keeps the bright white stuff to a minimum. At the very least - Personalize, Colors, Dark (insteadof the default Light). There is also an option to show the colors in title bars, so you don;t have that blank space and the whole "where to I click to drag this window" thing going on.
 What's funny is this whole 'flat' UI, which I'm not a big fan of, started with Apple and when Apple did it, everyone called it so new and refreshing and awesome. Microsoft does the same thing and "what crap!"

[james_s]

Yes I'm aware you can change that one color, to another single color. I've spent plenty of time messing around with the few customization options it has, I'm not a new computer user, I've been using Windows since 3.0 on a 286. I finally found Windowblinds from Stardock which makes it much nicer, still not as nice as Win7 but it's better. The default color scheme for XP was absolutely hideous, almost everybody set it to the windows classic scheme. Windows 2000 had a rather nice out of box experience, and 7 was pretty good too, calc, wordpad and mspaint were crap but the versions from XP or Vista work fine in 7.

I'm still irritated with Apple for screwing up iOS with that flat crap, so not "everyone" called it refreshing. In fact there was quite a substantial amount of backlash but Apple doesn't care. The difference is that Apple has a small but very fanatical group of followers who will put up with almost anything. Microsoft for the most part does not. Very few people are fanatical about Microsoft, we just use it because so much software is written for it. In my case I kept my iphone because the other option, Android also has a flat crappy UI so I have little option there.

[Cerebus]

Though moving to Mac is not a great option either.  They do the same thing MS does, but with an even shorter lifecycle.

Not really true, I'm typing this on a desktop running OS X 10.6.8 (introduced Aug 2009) which got its last update in September 2014 and it's only just now that I'm beginning to run into problems with applications not getting updates that they probably need (Only actually 1 so far, Firefox). That's an introduction about the same time as Windows 7 which left mainstream support in Jan 2015; so the actual practical effects on the ground are pretty much similar.

[rrinker]

 Sometimes I think it would be better if using a computer and the internet was hard, like it was 20 years ago.

 It's really because of the general lack of competence that MS and others have gone to such extremes to make sure people use up to date software - the biggest security hole next to social engineering stuff is unpatched software. I and many others here are quite capable of keeping our systems up to date without any forced stuff, but consider the general population of computer users - the people who are lucky to know even where the power switch is. And the equally incompetent "professionals" who give my profession a bad name who also fail to ever update systems. Most of those have passed lots of certification tests, too. Which is why I refuse to do it, I don't want to be associated with such people.

 Personal case - years ago, when everyone's IIS based web site got taken over and replaced with "Hacked by Chinese" and also there was a SQL Server issue around the same time - maybe the Slammer worm. At that time I still ran all sorts of servers at home, including a web server and database server. The vulnerability that allowed the IIS hack had been patched for nearly a YEAR by the time the attac actually happened - I watched my logs get hot after hit trying to infect my server to no avail because mine was patched. Same with my SQL Server, that vulnerability too was patched long before the outbreak - some simple patching and it would have been a nothing event, instead all these servers all over the world got hit with this crap.

 So, if the end user won't bother to figure out how to keep their systems up to date - who will? Even if my systems don't get compromised, massive attacks still affect me. So, all defaults are now the heck with it, install the patches and consequences be damned.

 Microsoft sucks because there are security problems. Mostly caused by unpatched operating systems. Microsoft more or less forces the OS to be patches, Microsoft still sucks. Make up your minds.

[james_s]

The forced updates are not really about security, that's just smoke & mirrors. The real goal is to give them control, software doesn't wear out and the more mature these products become, the harder it is for companies to introduce compelling new features that will get people to go out and buy new versions. Microsoft is trying to slowly nudge everyone over to their walled garden and subscription services and the strategy is to get everyone onto an operating system that they have control of, then they can gradually keep adding new ways to monetize the OS and promote their own products and services. Gradually degrade the "legacy" software experience in a futile attempt to push people over to their UWP apps. If they really were concerned about security they would force out security updates only but MS is desperate, they themselves were spreading FUD about their own older but still-supported products. They didn't give Win10 away for free out of the goodness of their hearts, it's a trojan horse to sneak their SAAS wares into your life.

[Monkeh]

Microsoft sucks because there are security problems. Mostly caused by unpatched operating systems. Microsoft more or less forces the OS to be patches, Microsoft still sucks. Make up your minds.

Security issues aren't the only reason they suck.

I did a nice, fresh install of 7 on a new SSD the other day, went to copy everything off the old one so I could format it. Oh, look, explorer.. locks up copying a file. Not because there's something wrong with the file, or the SSD, or the filesystem, but because there's something wrong with explorer. It's a simple enough task, but it can't handle it.

Clone drive into proper system, mount filesystem, proceed to copy files over the network. Slower, but somehow it doesn't choke on that! ... it does, however, suddenly choke because some of the files, once you add a whole seven characters to the path for my copy destination, exceed the 260 character path limit

Which century are we in again?

[eugenenine]

Its more about poor design.  The updates should be able to be applied without restarting the system.  We should be able to completely remove un-necessary software therefore negating the need to patch it.  But we can't remove the crap thats forced with the OS and we have to patch it and the os needs restarted completely to patch it.

If the Os were modular so that we could remove the components we don't want or patch and just reload the components we do want then it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.

[gnif]

"Windows is getting disgusting"??

I think you meant

"Windows is getting more disgusting"

[madires]

For me personally Win10 crossed the red line. And it might be illegal for companies to run Win10 in Germany, because the data collection violates two laws protecting employees and customers. There are discussions about that in different organizations at the moment. We take this very seriously, especially in case of privacy sensitive industries like health care.

[cde]

For me personally Win10 crossed the red line. And it might be illegal for companies to run Win10 in Germany, because the data collection violates two laws protecting employees and customers. There are discussions about that in different organizations at the moment. We take this very seriously, especially in case of privacy sensitive industries like health care.

I feel the same. However I need Windows 10 for various tasks, so let me share what I found to limit to a maximum what is sent to the network:

- install the Enterprise LTSB version. The LTSB removes a lot of cruft: Cortana, the Store, a lot of bundled apps (such as Skype, ...).

This version is available from MSDN. You will need to activate it with your company's KMS server. Note the trial version Microsoft offers can't be activated directely with your company's KMS (you need the VL version instead).

- disable telemetry:

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection]
"AllowTelemetry"=dword:00000000

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DiagTrack]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\dmwappushservice]
"Start"=dword:00000004
- disable Cortana (required on non-LTSB versions):

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Windows Search]
"AllowCortana"=dword:00000000
- disable OneDrive: run as admin

Code: [Select]

taskkill /f /im OneDrive.exe
C:\Windows\SysWOW64\OneDriveSetup.exe /uninstall
And to remove it from the Explorer:

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{018D5C66-4533-4307-9B53-224DE2ED1FE6}]
"System.IsPinnedToNameSpaceTree"=dword:00000000

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\WOW6432Node\CLSID\{018D5C66-4533-4307-9B53-224DE2ED1FE6}]
"System.IsPinnedToNameSpaceTree"=dword:00000000
- block login.live.com by adding the following line to C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts:

Code: [Select]

127.0.0.1 login.live.com
This is unfortunately the only way I found to block those connections.

- disable Network Location Awareness (queries to www.msftncsi.com):

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NlaSvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004
Note the Windows 7 "EnableActiveProbing" registry key seems to no longer work...

- disable the Delivery Optimization service (queries to geo-prod.do.dsp.mp.microsoft.com):

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DoSvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004
This service is only required for peer to peer sharing of updates.

- disable the font caching service (queries to fs.microsoft.com):

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\FontCache]
"Start"=dword:00000004
- optionally disable Windows Defender (or keep it if you need an anti-virus):

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows Defender]
"DisableAntiSpyware"=dword:00000001
- replace time.windows.com with your favourite NTP server:

Code: [Select]

[-HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]
@="0"
"0"="1.pool.ntp.org"
- optionally disable Windows Update if you prefer to install updates manually and retain control of your computer:

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
"DisableWindowsUpdateAccess"=dword:00000001
"DoNotConnectToWindowsUpdateInternetLocations"=dword:00000001

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\BITS]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\wuauserv]
"Start"=dword:00000004
- setup a GPO to block Internet from certain Windows components:

Run gpedit.msc, go to Computer Configuration => Administrative Templates => System => Internet Communication Management => Restrict Internet communication, set it to Enabled.

However under "Internet Communication Settings" you may want to keep "Turn off Automatic Root Certificate Update" Disabled so that Windows can update its root certificates. Similarly if you need Windows Update, make sure to set "Turn off access to all Windows Update features" to Disabled.

Also you may have to manually set "Turn off access to the Store" to Enabled, as this setting seems unaffected by the global "Restrict Internet communication" setting above.

- optionally disable SmartScreen (however like Windows Defender, it can be useful):

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer]
"SmartScreenEnabled"="Off"
- disable the useless lock screen (not privacy-related):

Code: [Select]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Personalization]
"NoLockScreen"=dword:00000001
I should also make a post at how to configure Firefox to have a good level of privacy. There are a surprisingly large number of parameters that must be tweaked.

[cde]

MS pretty much broke Windows updates on Windows 7, so they now provide monthly (in)convenience rollup packages that you have to know about which do dramatically speed up the process. If you don't know about them, it'll take of the oreder of days to install as you discovered.

I looked into this for a collegue, and it boils down to installing KB3020369 then KB3172605 before hitting Windows Update, then all updates can be installed in less than an hour (faster if you install KB3125574 beforehand). Others have reported success with KB3102810 too. Also for some weird reason, you need at least two logical CPUs (in particular if you use Windows 7 in a VM) otherwise the service will hang.

[Howardlong]

Well despite the negative tone of this thread, I have some reasonably good news. I switched off the auto update by disabling the service a few days ago, and many annoyances, particularly when coming out of sleep, have disappeared.

These include, but are not limited to, (a) increasingly I'd find that the machine was non-responsive and would not come out of sleep needing a cold reboot; (b) windows were re-sized while in sleep; (c) my incremental backups sometimes stopped working incrementally and went to full backups.

[slicendice]

First thing everybody, who has issues with Windows 10, should disable is Fast Boot. Next thing is disabling Delivery Optimization completely in services. There is a lot of tweaks that can be made to Windows, but I don't recommend anyone doing those tweaks unless you know how Windows works internally and know how to use PowerShell properly.

Those who are worried about privacy, like some medical institutions etc, disconnect the internet plug as those devices should not be internet connected in the first place if privacy is such an issue. For all the other problems like Windows update, if it's an issue, then the computer should be connected to a domain that has group policy configured and owns it's own update server.

I have been an Windows Insider since they started the program, and only twice have I had such issues that I had to clean install the whole system. That is tens if not even hundreds of new builds (lost the count a long time ago) I have tested and kept together by some temporary registry tweaks. :-)

Windows 10 is actually quite good after you know how to work around the minor quirks it may have. I would not switch back to 7 or 8.1 anymore.

[eugenenine]

But we should not have to take all these steps.  Microsoft has had many years and many versions, had lad lots of paid developers, lots of paid testers, etc and yet it still can't resume reliably, has a huge security hole thinly designed as a web browser, requires constant tinkering and maintenance, etc.  I can go download a free OS put together be a small group in their spare time that can do everything windows can without all these issues.
I shouldn't have to unplug my network if I want privacy, the OS shouldn't be trying to invade it.  I shouldn't need a forced reboot while trying to work to apply patches, decouple the programs from the OS so they can be patched without the need for OS downtime. 
Microsoft have been going the wrong direction ever since XP and shows no willingness to change.

[Cerebus]

I shouldn't need a forced reboot while trying to work to apply patches, decouple the programs from the OS so they can be patched without the need for OS downtime. 

A couple of weeks back I upgraded my main server from Debian 7 to Debian 8 - that's the equivalent of upgrading Windows through a whole version - say 8.1 to 10. This is a machine running DNS, mail, asterisk VOIP, postgresql, a web server, NTP, a media server, three different flavours of file server (SMB, NFS and AFP), radius, a VPN, a firewall, acting as a router, a logging server for other machines and a bunch of other minor things.

I ran a live upgrade that started with all the services running and ended with all the services upgraded and running; all the services stayed available during the upgrade and only were individually offline momentarily as the old versions were stopped and the new versions started. It got a manual reboot at the end to load a new kernel but that wasn't a strictly necessary step. Moreover, this upgrade involved fundamental changes to how the OS stops and starts services (from SysV init to systemd) and it went without a hitch.

As to patches, those happen magically overnight and everything just keeps running. I've been running the unattended patches for a few years now and nothing, literally nothing, has stopped working because of a patch. If I read somewhere about a new vulnerability in anything that's on the system, I usually get the automatic email to tell me that the patch has been installed the same or the next day.

This is a free operating system, largely produced by unpaid volunteers that doesn't leak any information about me to its makers and just keeps smoothly working. If the 'amateurs' can do this, how crap must Microsoft be to produce an OS like Windows 10 with the billions they have available to pay for doing it?

[james_s]

Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight. It was a different place back then but by the time I left I was starting to see things heading toward their current trajectory. There is a huge amount of corporate politics that go on inside. Constant re-orgs are a way of life, you might show up for work one day and find that you now report to a different manager and that could happen twice or more in a year in some groups. Multiple groups do their own thing and often the right hand doesn't really talk to the left, and if it does it only takes a reorg to turn something around 180 degrees. The infamous stack ranking system created a culture of tribal knowledge, information hoarding and undermining of those you should instead be collaborating with. In many cases finding a fall guy became more important than doing exemplary work. That system is gone in theory but cultural changes happen slowly.

Furthermore as a public company producing products to be sold for money, there is a constant drive to release new versions, and new versions must offer something to convince the user that they are in fact new. For a while that was easy, technology was growing at a rapid pace and there were always new features and capabilities that could be added but at some point software reached the point where most of the features were mature and new versions became mostly a matter of shuffling things around and giving it a fresh look. They could spend the time to refine something and fix thousands of bugs, but if it still looks the same and offers the same features, few people will buy it so instead they add gimmicks and change the look. The open source products don't have this issue, since they are not produced as a source of income it's not necessary to make arbitrary changes in order to drive the upgrade cycle and effort can instead be spent on bug fixes and refinements. The open source stuff is not perfect though, I always run into something where I have to spend hours searching online for a solution, or I find there are 15 different ways to do something and some of them don't play nice together.

[RoGeorge]

Having worked at Microsoft ...

Very interesting insights, thank you!
Totally makes sense, and that is why users should never blame the programmers for what they don't like at Windows.

This [*nix] is a free operating system, largely produced by unpaid volunteers ...
If the 'amateurs' can do this, ...

I have a slightly different view here. You just mentioned Systemd. It's made mostly by paid professional programmers from RedHat. Let me give a few more examples: OpenOffice == Oracle, Eclipse == Intel, and so on. Also, many companies that use open software for their products are contributing back to the open community adding new features, patches and so on. And they are not doing this just because of good will.

People that are writing open software might be 'amateurs', 'unpaid', 'volunteers' but many of them are in fact the exact opposite.

[CraigHB]

Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight.

That's pretty much no surprise about how business carries on there.  I've seen that kind of thing happen in other corporate cultures I've been involved in, not so much to that extent though.

Microsoft is first and foremost in business to make money.  To do that they need to sell copies and if there's nothing to motivate people to run the latest software they have to come up with a reason.  Either that or force customers to buy the latest version sooner than later.  They seem to be going to the force method.  They are rather desperate.  The desktop computer market has been in a nose dive as people opt for tablet computers and phones.  They don't have nearly the presence in that market they do in the desktop and server market.

It does seem pretty amazing with all their resources they can't make a product that is significantly better than any alternative.  To quote Bill Gates, “If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.”  Seems to be kind of a philosophy over there.

[james_s]

It is a myth though that the traditional desktop/laptop PC is going away, unfortunately Microsoft has bought into that myth. Yes, PC sales have plummeted and yes people are still buying lots of tablets but the reason is not the demise of the PC. The reason is that the PC market is saturated and it's a mature product. Everyone already has a PC, or two or three, few have a need to upgrade with any regularity anymore, a 5 or even 10 year old PC will still do everything most people need and that would have been unheard of 20 years ago. Mobile devices are still evolving rapidly although that market too is becoming saturated. There are a lot of people who never really made good use of a PC in the first place, it was just the only way to get online and use email and such, those people's needs are now met by mobile devices but the core PC users are still there, and the PC is still king for productivity and content creation.

[Cerebus]

I have a slightly different view here. You just mentioned Systemd. It's made mostly by paid professional programmers from RedHat. Let me give a few more examples: OpenOffice == Oracle, Eclipse == Intel, and so on. Also, many companies that use open software for their products are contributing back to the open community adding new features, patches and so on. And they are not doing this just because of good will.

People that are writing open software might be 'amateurs', 'unpaid', 'volunteers' but many of them are in fact the exact opposite.

That is why I said "largely", because there are some aspects that directly or indirectly have some real funding. But for every example you quote I could quote a counter example that has never had a commercial backer. Remember, it required a lot of unpaid work to get the Linux/BSD/etc ecosystems to the point where there was enough there for commercial interests to see some logic in using and contributing to it all.

But that's not the real point, the real point is that it now works better than Windows 99% of the time for a fraction of the cost, including all the commercial contributions that have been made over time and it's being produced by people that want a useful, working ecosystem, not a way to squeeze every penny out of end users by spying on them and resetting privacy settings without permission at every update.

[Red Squirrel]

Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight.

That's pretty much no surprise about how business carries on there.  I've seen that kind of thing happen in other corporate cultures I've been involved in, not so much to that extent though.

Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.

[james_s]

Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.

The thing that gets me almost everywhere I've worked is that they're so worried about pinching pennies and cutting costs, but then one group will be throwing out parts or equipment while another group is buying more of the same stuff that's being thrown out. I've been known to scavenge from the e-waste bins and keep a collection of random stuff so I'm usually the guy people go to when they need a specific cable, adapter, tool or bit of hardware. They could save a huge amount of money if they just talked to one another and kept closer tabs on what's being thrown away and what's being purchased. It's ridiculous to clean up and throw something out then buy another one a few weeks later when someone needs it.

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.

The thing that gets me almost everywhere I've worked is that they're so worried about pinching pennies and cutting costs, but then one group will be throwing out parts of equipment while another group is buying more of the same stuff that's being thrown out. I've been known to scavenge from the e-waste bins and keep a collection of random stuff so I'm usually the guy people go to when they need a specific cable, adapter, tool or bit of hardware. They could save a huge amount of money if they just talked to one another and kept closer tabs on what's being thrown away and what's being purchased. It's ridiculous to clean up and throw something out then buy another one a few weeks later when someone needs it.

Yeah that stuff pisses me off and they usually have some piss poor excuse as to why they operate that way.  Sometimes not their fault but sometimes it is.  Lots of red tape and liability BS in the business world that can cause lot of waste.    Sometimes they also do something to save money short term but it will cost more long term.  Seems companies and governments have zero concept of long term financial planing.  Then you have execs traveling on private jets like it's no big deal, but they won't buy a department equipment that they need.