Author Topic: Windows is getting disgusting  (Read 161615 times)

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Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #600 on: February 02, 2017, 07:52:58 pm »
First thing everybody, who has issues with Windows 10, should disable is Fast Boot. Next thing is disabling Delivery Optimization completely in services. There is a lot of tweaks that can be made to Windows, but I don't recommend anyone doing those tweaks unless you know how Windows works internally and know how to use PowerShell properly.

Those who are worried about privacy, like some medical institutions etc, disconnect the internet plug as those devices should not be internet connected in the first place if privacy is such an issue. For all the other problems like Windows update, if it's an issue, then the computer should be connected to a domain that has group policy configured and owns it's own update server.

I have been an Windows Insider since they started the program, and only twice have I had such issues that I had to clean install the whole system. That is tens if not even hundreds of new builds (lost the count a long time ago) I have tested and kept together by some temporary registry tweaks. :-)

Windows 10 is actually quite good after you know how to work around the minor quirks it may have. I would not switch back to 7 or 8.1 anymore.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #601 on: February 02, 2017, 09:13:33 pm »
But we should not have to take all these steps.  Microsoft has had many years and many versions, had lad lots of paid developers, lots of paid testers, etc and yet it still can't resume reliably, has a huge security hole thinly designed as a web browser, requires constant tinkering and maintenance, etc.  I can go download a free OS put together be a small group in their spare time that can do everything windows can without all these issues.
I shouldn't have to unplug my network if I want privacy, the OS shouldn't be trying to invade it.  I shouldn't need a forced reboot while trying to work to apply patches, decouple the programs from the OS so they can be patched without the need for OS downtime. 
Microsoft have been going the wrong direction ever since XP and shows no willingness to change.
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #602 on: February 02, 2017, 11:58:08 pm »
I shouldn't need a forced reboot while trying to work to apply patches, decouple the programs from the OS so they can be patched without the need for OS downtime. 

A couple of weeks back I upgraded my main server from Debian 7 to Debian 8 - that's the equivalent of upgrading Windows through a whole version - say 8.1 to 10. This is a machine running DNS, mail, asterisk VOIP, postgresql, a web server, NTP, a media server, three different flavours of file server (SMB, NFS and AFP), radius, a VPN, a firewall, acting as a router, a logging server for other machines and a bunch of other minor things.

I ran a live upgrade that started with all the services running and ended with all the services upgraded and running; all the services stayed available during the upgrade and only were individually offline momentarily as the old versions were stopped and the new versions started. It got a manual reboot at the end to load a new kernel but that wasn't a strictly necessary step. Moreover, this upgrade involved fundamental changes to how the OS stops and starts services (from SysV init to systemd) and it went without a hitch.

As to patches, those happen magically overnight and everything just keeps running. I've been running the unattended patches for a few years now and nothing, literally nothing, has stopped working because of a patch. If I read somewhere about a new vulnerability in anything that's on the system, I usually get the automatic email to tell me that the patch has been installed the same or the next day.

This is a free operating system, largely produced by unpaid volunteers that doesn't leak any information about me to its makers and just keeps smoothly working. If the 'amateurs' can do this, how crap must Microsoft be to produce an OS like Windows 10 with the billions they have available to pay for doing it?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #603 on: February 03, 2017, 12:16:11 am »
Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight. It was a different place back then but by the time I left I was starting to see things heading toward their current trajectory. There is a huge amount of corporate politics that go on inside. Constant re-orgs are a way of life, you might show up for work one day and find that you now report to a different manager and that could happen twice or more in a year in some groups. Multiple groups do their own thing and often the right hand doesn't really talk to the left, and if it does it only takes a reorg to turn something around 180 degrees. The infamous stack ranking system created a culture of tribal knowledge, information hoarding and undermining of those you should instead be collaborating with. In many cases finding a fall guy became more important than doing exemplary work. That system is gone in theory but cultural changes happen slowly.

Furthermore as a public company producing products to be sold for money, there is a constant drive to release new versions, and new versions must offer something to convince the user that they are in fact new. For a while that was easy, technology was growing at a rapid pace and there were always new features and capabilities that could be added but at some point software reached the point where most of the features were mature and new versions became mostly a matter of shuffling things around and giving it a fresh look. They could spend the time to refine something and fix thousands of bugs, but if it still looks the same and offers the same features, few people will buy it so instead they add gimmicks and change the look. The open source products don't have this issue, since they are not produced as a source of income it's not necessary to make arbitrary changes in order to drive the upgrade cycle and effort can instead be spent on bug fixes and refinements. The open source stuff is not perfect though, I always run into something where I have to spend hours searching online for a solution, or I find there are 15 different ways to do something and some of them don't play nice together.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #604 on: February 03, 2017, 07:45:06 am »
Having worked at Microsoft ...
Very interesting insights, thank you!
Totally makes sense, and that is why users should never blame the programmers for what they don't like at Windows.

This [*nix] is a free operating system, largely produced by unpaid volunteers ...
If the 'amateurs' can do this, ...
I have a slightly different view here. You just mentioned Systemd. It's made mostly by paid professional programmers from RedHat. Let me give a few more examples: OpenOffice == Oracle, Eclipse == Intel, and so on. Also, many companies that use open software for their products are contributing back to the open community adding new features, patches and so on. And they are not doing this just because of good will.

People that are writing open software might be 'amateurs', 'unpaid', 'volunteers' but many of them are in fact the exact opposite.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 07:48:40 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #605 on: February 03, 2017, 04:53:39 pm »
Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight.

That's pretty much no surprise about how business carries on there.  I've seen that kind of thing happen in other corporate cultures I've been involved in, not so much to that extent though.

Microsoft is first and foremost in business to make money.  To do that they need to sell copies and if there's nothing to motivate people to run the latest software they have to come up with a reason.  Either that or force customers to buy the latest version sooner than later.  They seem to be going to the force method.  They are rather desperate.  The desktop computer market has been in a nose dive as people opt for tablet computers and phones.  They don't have nearly the presence in that market they do in the desktop and server market.

It does seem pretty amazing with all their resources they can't make a product that is significantly better than any alternative.  To quote Bill Gates, “If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.”  Seems to be kind of a philosophy over there.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #606 on: February 03, 2017, 04:59:15 pm »
It is a myth though that the traditional desktop/laptop PC is going away, unfortunately Microsoft has bought into that myth. Yes, PC sales have plummeted and yes people are still buying lots of tablets but the reason is not the demise of the PC. The reason is that the PC market is saturated and it's a mature product. Everyone already has a PC, or two or three, few have a need to upgrade with any regularity anymore, a 5 or even 10 year old PC will still do everything most people need and that would have been unheard of 20 years ago. Mobile devices are still evolving rapidly although that market too is becoming saturated. There are a lot of people who never really made good use of a PC in the first place, it was just the only way to get online and use email and such, those people's needs are now met by mobile devices but the core PC users are still there, and the PC is still king for productivity and content creation.
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #607 on: February 03, 2017, 05:37:30 pm »
I have a slightly different view here. You just mentioned Systemd. It's made mostly by paid professional programmers from RedHat. Let me give a few more examples: OpenOffice == Oracle, Eclipse == Intel, and so on. Also, many companies that use open software for their products are contributing back to the open community adding new features, patches and so on. And they are not doing this just because of good will.

People that are writing open software might be 'amateurs', 'unpaid', 'volunteers' but many of them are in fact the exact opposite.

That is why I said "largely", because there are some aspects that directly or indirectly have some real funding. But for every example you quote I could quote a counter example that has never had a commercial backer. Remember, it required a lot of unpaid work to get the Linux/BSD/etc ecosystems to the point where there was enough there for commercial interests to see some logic in using and contributing to it all.

But that's not the real point, the real point is that it now works better than Windows 99% of the time for a fraction of the cost, including all the commercial contributions that have been made over time and it's being produced by people that want a useful, working ecosystem, not a way to squeeze every penny out of end users by spying on them and resetting privacy settings without permission at every update.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #608 on: February 04, 2017, 01:02:59 am »
Having worked at Microsoft for period from the late 90s to the mid 2000's I have some insight.

That's pretty much no surprise about how business carries on there.  I've seen that kind of thing happen in other corporate cultures I've been involved in, not so much to that extent though.

Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #609 on: February 04, 2017, 01:20:10 am »
Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.

The thing that gets me almost everywhere I've worked is that they're so worried about pinching pennies and cutting costs, but then one group will be throwing out parts or equipment while another group is buying more of the same stuff that's being thrown out. I've been known to scavenge from the e-waste bins and keep a collection of random stuff so I'm usually the guy people go to when they need a specific cable, adapter, tool or bit of hardware. They could save a huge amount of money if they just talked to one another and kept closer tabs on what's being thrown away and what's being purchased. It's ridiculous to clean up and throw something out then buy another one a few weeks later when someone needs it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 06:16:02 am by james_s »
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #610 on: February 04, 2017, 01:33:12 am »
Yeah seems to sadly be the norm with most big companies.  Everything they do is done the most inefficient way possible. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.   I work for a telecom that is owned by a 4 letter telecom that goes ding, and the more they touch our stuff the worse it gets. The penny pinching is also unbelievable.  They report revenues in the billions but don't want to buy basic office supplies.

But then can't really complain or even put your department in the spot light, or they might just close it.  They are laying off people left and right and constantly restructuring and you don't know from one day to the next if you'll continue to have a job.  That is sadly the theme at most companies these days too.  As costs of living keep going up, the number of jobs that pay decent go down.

The thing that gets me almost everywhere I've worked is that they're so worried about pinching pennies and cutting costs, but then one group will be throwing out parts of equipment while another group is buying more of the same stuff that's being thrown out. I've been known to scavenge from the e-waste bins and keep a collection of random stuff so I'm usually the guy people go to when they need a specific cable, adapter, tool or bit of hardware. They could save a huge amount of money if they just talked to one another and kept closer tabs on what's being thrown away and what's being purchased. It's ridiculous to clean up and throw something out then buy another one a few weeks later when someone needs it.


Yeah that stuff pisses me off and they usually have some piss poor excuse as to why they operate that way.  Sometimes not their fault but sometimes it is.  Lots of red tape and liability BS in the business world that can cause lot of waste.    Sometimes they also do something to save money short term but it will cost more long term.  Seems companies and governments have zero concept of long term financial planing.  Then you have execs traveling on private jets like it's no big deal, but they won't buy a department equipment that they need.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #611 on: February 04, 2017, 11:42:03 am »
I use Linux and Windows 8.1.

I have never understood the complaints about 8.1 - when properly configured so you don't use Metro ( only use 1 Metro window - the apps window), I think it is better then Windows 7. There is not one W7 feature I am missing, and for me W8.1 has been totally solid. Most of the time, using it is the same as W7, except running programs from the start button is different and faster then W7.

The big problem is the Microsoft monitoring/spyware additions but to cure that are partly in updated W7 and to a bigger extent in W8.1.  I am trying Ancile that is a fork of the no-longer developed Aegis script.

https://bitbucket.org/matthewlinton/ancile/  (Windows 7 and 8.x only - not Windows 10)

It disables and uninstalls a lot of the unwanted features, and they seem to have really thought it through. Things like changing the timeservers, so that Microsoft cannot log you that way, and adding 248 Microsoft domains in the hosts file which are all redirected to 0.0.0.0. Solutions like this are really only for people who understand what is going on in Ancile, but it looks like a pretty major disconnection. I did a Windows update and it still worked, but the removed updates have not tried to re-appear yet. So far, Windows is behaving like the spyware updates have vanished for good, but we will see what happens when i have to do a cumulative update. Probably have to get the latest Ancile and run it again.

If it does work in the long term, it means I have another 6 years of safe Windows use. I did the free upgrade to Windows 10 on most of my PC's using a sysprep Win10 installation on a temporary disk before the end of the first year, but I haven't permanently upgraded any hardware to W10.

The only W10 I have is an activated Virtualbox VM. By the way, when you clone an activated Windows VM in Virtualbox, the clone is  un-activated, but it is not hard to set all clones to be activated. I can dig up the details if anyone wants to know.

Richard.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #612 on: February 04, 2017, 04:17:41 pm »
It still takes time to research and find those fixes and apply them when we shouldn't have to.  That takes tie away from things I want to do.

My son , on windows 10, wrote some code to his arduino, walked downstairs to show me then walked back up stairs and now the Arduino software doesn't have permissions to use some file in \program files.  When would Windows make a change at random like that?  Now I have to waste both of our time to fix another silly windows issue that shouldn't be necessary,  Imagine if we were a production shop and my employee can't program his microcontroller due to another windows issue, how much $ is lost.
 

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #613 on: February 04, 2017, 04:55:07 pm »
The reason is that the PC market is saturated and it's a mature product. Everyone already has a PC, or two or three, few have a need to upgrade with any regularity anymore, a 5 or even 10 year old PC will still do everything most people need and that would have been unheard of 20 years ago.

Yes that's a big part of it.  I have several desktop PCs and haven't changed the base hardware on them for a good number of years.  Though I've done some smaller upgrades like switching to SSDs, the motherboards and processors have not been touched for quite some time.  Honestly the machines do all I ask of them with plenty of speed, there's really no issue there.  Granted I'm not doing professional development, but I do run an array of fairly demanding engineering software.  So yeah, you don't need to be running out to buy a new desktop PC every couple three years, it's just not necessary.  On the other hand, people replace phones and tablets at the breakneck pace you used to see with PCs years ago.

I don't see myself abandoning the desktop PC any time soon, as mentioned it's where the real work gets done.  Unfortunately Microsoft thinks everyone's PC should look like a tablet or phone, hence the windows 8.0 disaster with the lack of a start menu.  We get that "cow goes moo" desktop appearance with the latest versions of Windows because of that.  Not just Windows though, it seems every user interface for every device is trying to emulate that touchscreen look now.  It's fine for a phone or other touchscreen device, but really sucks on a desktop computer or any other device that lacks a touchscreen.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 05:16:59 pm by CraigHB »
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #614 on: February 04, 2017, 05:08:55 pm »
And websites that have 'the ipad look'.

My son wants 10 on his laptop, since it needs reinstalled anyway, it did updates and rebooted and died.  I went to microsoft's site and entered the license key and it let me download the iso.  Burned it and it boots and starts the install then says the license key is invalid.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #615 on: February 04, 2017, 06:14:20 pm »
Much of the reason people replace phones so often is that we carry them around in our pocket everywhere we go and they get dropped/sat on and broken. I'm on my second mobile phone in 10 years so I'm obviously an anomaly but I've always treated my phone as the expensive pocket computer that it is and take good care of it. That said, smartphone and tablet sales are slowing drastically, I think they are about a decade behind PCs in that curve, although they will never be quite as long lasting as a PC due to the breakage issue. 
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #616 on: February 06, 2017, 08:57:44 am »
And websites that have 'the ipad look'.

My son wants 10 on his laptop, since it needs reinstalled anyway, it did updates and rebooted and died.  I went to microsoft's site and entered the license key and it let me download the iso.  Burned it and it boots and starts the install then says the license key is invalid.

What site have you been on? Microsoft does not require you to give away any license keys just because you want to download the ISO image. You simply just go and grab the ISO.

Where did you purchase the license from?

If you bought an upgrade license then you can not enter it in the box where Windows asks for a key when you do a clean install. You can simply skip this step and enter the key later, once Windows is installed.


EDIT: It seems MS has changed this once again. You need to download the Media Creation Tool then you can download the ISO. Either way, you can not use the Upgrade key while you are clean installing Windows 10, you need to provide the key at a later time, once it's time to activate Windows.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 09:32:23 am by slicendice »
 

Offline madires

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #617 on: February 06, 2017, 10:37:30 am »
What site have you been on? Microsoft does not require you to give away any license keys just because you want to download the ISO image. You simply just go and grab the ISO.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows7 clearly asks for the product key. No valid key, no ISO.
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #618 on: February 06, 2017, 01:39:54 pm »
Yes I noticed they have once again changed how all this works.

You can however download the Windows Media Creation Tool, which does download the data required for you and then it converts that data into a bootable ISO image file or an USB stick. Not sure if you can get Windows 7 this way though...I only get the Windows 10 version if I run the tool on my Windows 10 box.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #619 on: February 06, 2017, 06:00:47 pm »
And websites that have 'the ipad look'.

My son wants 10 on his laptop, since it needs reinstalled anyway, it did updates and rebooted and died.  I went to microsoft's site and entered the license key and it let me download the iso.  Burned it and it boots and starts the install then says the license key is invalid.

Keys come with laptops are usually abused to be installed on unauthorized computers, hence may fail activation.
You need to call MS support center, and activate over phone. My MSI's pre-installed Win10 is f*ed, but after a call to MS telephone activation service, I can activate Windows without any trouble.
Also, you can pay $99 to buy a pro upgrading key, that way, the key will be exclusive to you and in the future, there will be no longer failed Internet activation anymore.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #620 on: February 06, 2017, 07:07:19 pm »
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.

 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #621 on: February 06, 2017, 07:19:31 pm »
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.
I believe you can only install straight to 10 if you had previously upgraded to it.  Since you were running 7 before, I'm pretty sure you'll need to install 7 and then upgrade to 10.
 

Offline slicendice

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #622 on: February 06, 2017, 10:56:45 pm »
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.
I believe you can only install straight to 10 if you had previously upgraded to it.  Since you were running 7 before, I'm pretty sure you'll need to install 7 and then upgrade to 10.

Yes this is the only way (well there is another way, but it's a bit involved) to upgrade from OEM Windows. First upgrade 7 to 10, then make sure your 10 gets activated. Once activated you can Wipe the computer clean and just clean install 10 without any key. It will get activated automatically because your hardware has gotten a digital licence.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #623 on: February 07, 2017, 05:48:07 am »
All this nonsense makes Linux sound simpler by the minute.
 

Offline switchedmodepsu

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Re: Windows is getting disgusting
« Reply #624 on: February 07, 2017, 06:09:48 am »
Its the OEM that came on the laptop.  I thought I'd skip the step of rebuilding it with 7 then doing the upgrade bu just wiping it and installing 10 from the start but no go. 
If I have to fix/rebuild/reinstall7 then it will just stay on it.
I believe you can only install straight to 10 if you had previously upgraded to it.  Since you were running 7 before, I'm pretty sure you'll need to install 7 and then upgrade to 10.

Nope, untrue. He can Google it and find out evidence to the contrary. You can validate the install of 10 with a 7 COA, so long as it was validated before the "free Windows 10" offer expired.
 


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