Windows is getting disgusting

[eugenenine]

How do you think the speech recognition engine can learn new accents if the data isn't processed somewhere? What about battery life on a laptop, if everything is processed and analyzed and optimized locally? Same for search keywords you type in. The words and the relationship between returned results and what the user was actually looking for, has to be processed somewhere in order for the service being able to serve you better. What about data storage? Sending the data away helps save storage space and how could any company be able to improve anything if they have no data to work with?

What about millions of different device configurations? How can anything be improved if the one who can make a difference has no data to work with? The information must come from somewhere or a company would not even know what kind of hardware you are using.

Many just expect stuff to work on their computer without even thinking how it was gotten working in the first place. Not helping the developer by not sending some data, will end up in a half baked product and the only one suffering is YOU, the customer.

Maybe they should ask some of the popular Linux distros how they are able to manage things without the (forced) data collection?

[slicendice]

Maybe they should ask some of the popular Linux distros how they are able to manage things without the (forced) data collection?

You are missing the point! Most Linux distros, especially the ones on the top are terrible at conserving battery as is. Requires a bit of fiddling with the system before it is acceptable. And here we are back at another point --> have to configure a lot before it's usable, and doing it on Linux many times requires a lot of BASH scripting knowledge and in some cases even recompiling the Kernel. Besides Linux is open source, and most is contributed through open source software contributions from enthusiasts, so these enhusiasts can use their own experience and data collections locally and code what seems to be the best approach.

[slicendice]

The design and implementation of security on Windows is improving massively. Shame it's happening at the same exact time they are transforming into a datamining company which wants to sell its users to advertisers.

Microsoft is not selling your data to anyone. They use your data to give you ads from an ad pool that are most relevant for you, which would be mainly local ads. Me as a Finnish citizen have no use of ads coming from India. If they come from the US or UK, they might be relevant and useful but Finnish ads are the most relevant for me, just like Indian ads are relevant for Indians and Finnish ads would make no sense to them.

The data mining of computer usage and hardware configurations goes hand in hand with the massive improvement in quality of Windows security and other services. Windows 10 is the fastest built OS from scratch, ever. they have put together a completely new design in less than 2 years. And 2 years later (4 years in total) a lot of stuff has improved even more. If it wasn't for the data mining we would still not see any hints of Windows 10, but instead it is already out there and improving every day.

If any of you have issues with how MS manages it's OS, then join the Preview Program and get your voice heard. I know a lot of people that think like most in this thread. And I completely understand the feeling, but it should not just stay as a feeling. Let MS know what you feel and think, so they can change how they move forward.

[suicidaleggroll]

You are missing the point! Most Linux distros, especially the ones on the top are terrible at conserving battery as is. Requires a bit of fiddling with the system before it is acceptable.

You're going way off topic here, and are wrong anyway.  Every Linux distro I've used on a laptop has had comparable battery life to Windows, many times even better, with zero fiddling or reconfiguration.  The trick is to choose a laptop from the get-go that uses hardware with good cross-platform driver support.  If you choose a laptop that was designed to only be compatible with Windows, you'll be fighting an uphill battle regardless of what you do.  That's the fault of the hardware manufacturer.

[eugenenine]

You are missing the point! Most Linux distros, especially the ones on the top are terrible at conserving battery as is. Requires a bit of fiddling with the system before it is acceptable.

You're going way off topic here, and are wrong anyway.  Every Linux distro I've used on a laptop has had comparable battery life to Windows, many times even better, with zero fiddling or reconfiguration.  The trick is to choose a laptop from the get-go that uses hardware with good cross-platform driver support.  If you choose a laptop that was designed to only be compatible with Windows, you'll be fighting an uphill battle regardless of what you do.  That's the fault of the hardware manufacturer.

Same here, I've always spent 30 minutes or less installing Linux on a "new" laptop (I say "new" here as I buy a refurbished every couple years so I can keep rotating my previous though one of my kids as they want newer faster).  Windows takes far more configuring before its usable and then contestant configuring to keep it usable.

My career is in IT but I went to college for electronics.  As is typical with most IT people I have a decent home network with various servers and clients for various reasons such as keeping up with the latest trends and tech to storing data for my hobbies.   Windows got to the point where it simply took too much time keeping it running and I got to spend less and less time on things I wanted to do.  Eventually I moved away from windows so I could gain the time back.  Moving away from windows let me get back into electronics even if its only at a hobby level now.  I'm also messing with programming languages, retro computing (Amiga), shooting, reloading, wooddorking, etc all in the time freed up by not having to maintain windows.  My Linux servers just keep running and I spend a few minutes here and there making updates or the 30 minutes to rebuild one due to failed hardware. 

[james_s]

The design and implementation of security on Windows is improving massively. Shame it's happening at the same exact time they are transforming into a datamining company which wants to sell its users to advertisers.

Microsoft is not selling your data to anyone. They use your data to give you ads from an ad pool that are most relevant for you, which would be mainly local ads. Me as a Finnish citizen have no use of ads coming from India. If they come from the US or UK, they might be relevant and useful but Finnish ads are the most relevant for me, just like Indian ads are relevant for Indians and Finnish ads would make no sense to them.

The data mining of computer usage and hardware configurations goes hand in hand with the massive improvement in quality of Windows security and other services. Windows 10 is the fastest built OS from scratch, ever. they have put together a completely new design in less than 2 years. And 2 years later (4 years in total) a lot of stuff has improved even more. If it wasn't for the data mining we would still not see any hints of Windows 10, but instead it is already out there and improving every day.

If any of you have issues with how MS manages it's OS, then join the Preview Program and get your voice heard. I know a lot of people that think like most in this thread. And I completely understand the feeling, but it should not just stay as a feeling. Let MS know what you feel and think, so they can change how they move forward.

*NO* ads are relevant to me, they are all an intrusion and having them come from the operating system itself is unacceptable. I've used adblock for years in my browser and it makes the internet tolerable, not much I can do about websites tracking me other than pollute my online profile with as much false information as possible but my operating system is sacred, my PC is my *personal* computer, it does what I want it to do and nothing more. Baked in data mining is not welcome, period, it is classified as malware. They may not be selling personal info now but I don't trust them at all. Just look at how they abused the Windows Update system and kept pushing out that GWX crap and then being sneaky and hiding the way to decline, repeatedly. I know several people who got up one day to find their machine "upgraded" to Win10 and Microsoft has been completely unapologetic about the matter.

The insider program is a joke, Microsoft is notorious for ignoring user feedback. Just take for example Aero Glass, that was the top most requested feature and they have steadfastly refused. Look, I worked at Microsoft years back and I'm still in touch with a number of people who work there still, so I have some insight into what goes on internally. When Phone more or less folded a lot of phone guys got rolled into the Windows team and that's the reason all this app crap has been forced in, despite absolutely no evidence that it is useful to anyone. Win10 is a half baked designed-by-committee mess and they *will* continue to tinker with it incessantly. Nothing annoys me more than stuff changing around on my computer without my consent. I will upgrade when *I* choose, I will not accept forced updates and constant fiddling. They had *one* chance to make a first impression and they shipped a half baked mess. Probably why Win10 has been sitting at about 23% adoption despite a year of pushing it "for free", extremely aggressively, going so far as tricking people into installing it, clicking the red X schedules the upgrade? You can't tell me that wasn't deliberately intended to be deceptive.

[CraigHB]

Can't really make broad equations between personal use and enterprise or small business use of Windows.  They're two different animals.  My perspective is purely for use as a personal computer.  I did have a personal server at one time on my home network and it was Linux.  I dropped it because I didn't want to spend the time to maintain it or pay for a static IP with DNS registration.  It was a Linux system, Debian specifically.  I would not consider using a Windows system for that if I were to run a personal server again. 

I feel pretty strongly about the invasion of privacy and lack of control MS seems to be offering with Windows 10.  It's a trend I've noticed over the years of using Windows as I'm forced to move to the next version (which I always do reluctantly).  It may have finally come to a head where I can't take it anymore.  When Microsoft obsoletes win7 that may be it for me.  As pointed out above the poor adoption rate of Win10 may be a good indicator a lot of people feel that way.  You would think they would make products to be as attractive as possible, but big companies always seem to lose sight of the primary goal at some point.  That goal being to provide products people want because they are truly an improvement over the last iteration.

[eugenenine]

pay for a static IP with DNS registration.

ddns client through afraid.org no need to pay for static.

[rrinker]

 Google does what better? Mines your data and sells it to others. Better how? Because they are more sneaky about it than even Microsoft? I've always loved this - Microsoft does something, how evil a company they are. Google does the same thing - all hail the great and benevolent Google.

 That SQL licensing PDF - it's more than 50% fluff. Several pages comparing the various editions (that's not really "how to license" information) and a whole explanation (read: marketing wank) on why Software Assurance is a good thing (also not part of actually licensing SQL Server). The actual license part is only a couple of pages and that includes explanations or cores in relation to physical and virtual servers that really I doubt many professionals need. CIO types maybe. There's even an alternative smaller brochure on licensing on the very same page as the longer one. At least Microsoft does not rip you off when doing server redundancy - that crown goes to Oracle. Funny how most Oracle users tend to be large government agencies - hey, not their money.

[rdl]

Windows is an operating system. Google is not. This makes a very big difference to me. I consider both companies to be "evil" however, and to be avoided at any cost.

[james_s]

Yeah I hate the "well Google/Apple/Whatever does it and you're ok with that so shut up about Windows doing it" thing. No, I'm really not ok with those other companies doing those things, and the fact that Windows previously didn't do those things makes it all the more angering that they think they can slip this stuff in and nobody will mind. I very much do mind, and I've avoided Google for years because they are at their core an advertising company. Google products are not produced for the greater good of humanity, they are trojan horses that exist to trade you a potentially useful product or service in exchange for valuable personal information. Maybe it's a fair trade, maybe it isn't, but that should be my choice to make, not part of the operating system on my PC.

[suicidaleggroll]

I've always loved this - Microsoft does something, how evil a company they are. Google does the same thing - all hail the great and benevolent Google.

Google doesn't run my OS.  If I want to avoid Google, I can, it's very easy.  It's not so easy when the data mining is built into the core of the OS and can't be turned off (and what little can be turned off, gets turned back on again without your approval at the next update, which also happens without your approval).

[rrinker]

 They do if you use Android devices, or a Chromebook.

I did NOT say "if Google does it, it's ok for Microsoft" nor imply such. There is simply a double standard in general when it comes to many of these privacy issues. Article after article rails on Microsoft when they aren't, at least currently, selling any of that usage data they are collecting, but when it comes to Apple or Google you get something more along the lines of "Apple (or Google) admits to doing x, but says they stopped" so now is all OK.

Is Windows perfect? Hell no. But so much of this "disgusting" stuff is really a whole lot of FUD. Linux isn't perfect either - and I'm pretty sure I said it a whole lot of page ago but all the "choice" Linux brings is precisely why it hasn't been able to take a larger share of the desktop. It's almost a religion as to which windows manager is the best, and the debate often rests on technical issues that the average user has no clue about. ANd I DO use both Windows and Linux. Mostly my Linux system 'just works' but there's those little things - luckily in man cases well documented since I am far from the first person to encounter such. One that stands out - the control software I use for my model railroad runs on most any platform - Windows, Linux, OSx. Windows and Mac users can simply install the program and configure it for their device and system. Linux, you can just install it, but it won't see your interface device until you alter the permissions on the serial port. Device driver support is another - and in a large part to blame for Windows instability vs a more restricted environment where you can't install just any crap hardware. I built a low power low resource small form factor system to be my 'railroad computer' and even though it was capable of running Windows, I instead installed Linux since it was even better in the low resource environment. But there was no driver for my wireless card. I had to compile my own. No way is "Joe User" going to be able to do that - or want to. For me, I needed a quick refresher since it had been a while but it wasn't too difficult to accomplish - my first Linux was 0.89a way back when there were no precompiled distros that installed as easily as Windows.

[eugenenine]

You can use an android without google though, simply don't sign in and use other services (for example I sync my data via owncloud).  Or you could even even re-flash your android with one of the modded images without the google software.  So you still have some choice there.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Quote from: https://gist.github.com/xvitaly/eafa75ed2cb79b3bd4e9#gistcomment-2835441


All text typed on the keyboard is stored in temporary files, and sent (once per 30 mins) to:
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
pre.footprintpredict.com
reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com

Telemetry is sent once per 5 minutes, to:
vortex.data.microsoft.com
vortex-win.data.microsoft.com
telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com
telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com
sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net

Typing the name of any popular movie into your local file search starts a telemetry process that indexes all media files on your computer and transmits them to:
df.telemetry.microsoft.com
reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
pre.footprintpredict.com

When a webcam is first enabled, ~35mb of data gets immediately transmitted to:
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com.nsatc.net

Everything that is said into an enabled microphone is immediately transmitted to:
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com
oca.telemetry.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
vortex-sandbox.data.microsoft.com
pre.footprintpredict.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com
i1.services.social.microsoft.com.nsatc.net
telemetry.appex.bing.net
telemetry.urs.microsoft.com
cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net
statsfe1.ws.microsoft.com

This behaviour still occurs after Cortana is fully disabled/uninstalled.

Interestingly, if Cortana is enabled, the voice is first transcribed to text, then the transcription is sent to:

pre.footprintpredict.com
reports.wes.df.telemetry.microsoft.com
df.telemetry.microsoft.com

While the inital reflex may be to block all of the above servers via HOSTS, it turns out this won't work: Microsoft has taken the care to hardcode certain IPs, meaning that there is no DNS lookup and no HOSTS consultation. However, if the above servers are blocked via HOSTS, Windows will pretend to be crippled by continuously throwing errors, while still maintaining data collection in the background. Other than an increase in errors, HOSTS blocking did not affect the volume, frequency, or rate of data being transmitted.

http://archive.today/2016.06.09-060928/http://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/list-of-windows-7-telemetry-updates-to-avoid.379151/page-3
More:
sqm.telemetry.microsoft.com

telecommand.telemetry.microsoft.com

adaptv-pubnet.telemetryaudit.com

spc--cehhhdngdgedkhcfhekgjhje.telemetryverification.net

1009 spc--cehhhdngdgedkhcfhekgjhje.telemetryverification.net 1

This domain resolved normally. You can block this domain or block similar domains .

1010 au--cebhjdeeihkhghcdcejcidada1.telemetryverification.net 1
1011 au--3b154063ceihcdihbdbgdejhbdcdhenea5.telemetryverification.net 1
1012 au--cebhjdeeihkhghcdcejcidadceihcdihbdbgdejhbdcdhenea2.telemetryverification.net 1
1013 au--ceihcdihbdbgdejhbdcdhenea3.telemetryverification.net 1
1014 au--cejehfjfchggmeidkfpenepgceihcdihbdbgdejhbdcdhenea7.telemetryverification.net 1
1015 au--cejehfjfchggmeidkfpenepga6.telemetryverification.net

au--3b154063a4.telemetryverification.net


**I don't think a hosts file can stop this crap. They just use random odd urls to use telemetry.


I really have done a great deal to stop all this and they still found ways around it. and this is just win7, imagine what 10 is doing**

http://archive.today/2016.11.12-050656/http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30222844-Stop-Windows-10-From-Spying-On-You-36-DNS-Addresses-to-host-file

http://archive.today/2015.09.15-020602/https://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10

http://archive.today/2016.06.09-060606/http://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/list-of-windows-7-telemetry-updates-to-avoid.379151/page-2

http://archive.fo/2018.02.14-202231/http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/windows7-8-updates-to-hide-to-prevent-windows-10-upgrade-disable-telemetry.780476/

[Halcyon]

Speaking of Windows telemetry, I've had DNS blocking on my network for a while and despite only having 1 Windows machine on my network, it still generates the vast majority of blocked requests (see attached screen shot).

[rdl]

Speaking of Windows telemetry, I've had DNS blocking on my network for a while and despite only having 1 Windows machine on my network, it still generates the vast majority of blocked requests (see attached screen shot).

What kind of set up is needed to do that?

[bd139]

Just to note on telemetry, even the server versions (2019+) and the enterprise editions report telemetry when it's turned off now.

The company I am currently consulting with consider this to be a grave enough security risk they are planning a whole site migration to RHEL / CentOS at the moment which is paying the bills nicely. So thanks Microsoft! 

[Halcyon]

Speaking of Windows telemetry, I've had DNS blocking on my network for a while and despite only having 1 Windows machine on my network, it still generates the vast majority of blocked requests (see attached screen shot).

What kind of set up is needed to do that?

The screen shot is taken from the Pi-hole admin interface, running on an actual Raspberry Pi (and works very well). That is my network's primary DNS and DHCP server.

On top of that, I use the Ghostery and Adblock Plus plugins for Opera. I get absolutely zero ads (even video ads on YouTube are completely blocked on my desktop machine).

I also do some blacklisting at the firewall, but that's just a personal list I've created.

[bd139]

Are you sure it works for telemetry?

A lot of the telemetry stuff in windows falls back to internal hard coded addresses if the DNS entry doesn't work.

[magic]

Wow, I've never imagined Windows could fall so low so fast. The last version I liked was 98, the last version I used was XP. Hopefully it will stay that way forever.

Just to note on telemetry, even the server versions (2019+) and the enterprise editions report telemetry when it's turned off now.

Absolute madness. Westerners are surely spineless sheep who will put up with absolutely anything so it's fair game I guess, but to do the same to companies which need data confidentiality and have regulations to comply with? I don't understand what those people are thinking.

[bd139]

That's precisely why the fintech market is moving away from it. We're not putting up with it. It's just hard to shift 20 years of investment.

They want us in the cloud too, which isn't happening for a lot of companies.

One of the real problems is there is a lot of investment in Microsoft .Net and they expect users to take on telemetry with that now too. Take a look at this thread: https://github.com/dotnet/cli/issues/3093

MSFT do whatever they want. Total assholes and deserve to burn now.

Edit: to note, the process I am currently providing is going from manually deployed ancient Manually installed Windows Server + SQL Server + MSMQ + .Net to Automated CentOS + PostgreSQL + RabbitMQ + python/C. The cost is 1/5th and the performance is 2-3x greater.

[wraper]

https://youtu.be/dTUsar_KNDM

[madires]

With all the telemetry, which can't be turned off completely, any EU business or organization using Win10 is basically violating the GDPR. Imagine you are ill and see the doctor. As the doctor documents your visit MS gets a copy. This is an absolute no-no!

[bd139]

They're not. You just have to document it in your organisational security policy. If the breach takes place due to an infiltration event and the infiltrator is identifiable and you complied with your own security policy and that was deemed practical and reasonable, MSFT have to answer to it, not you. Lots of companies spent a lot of money working this out last year.