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General => General Chat => Topic started by: Sionyn on June 25, 2012, 11:14:26 am

Title: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Sionyn on June 25, 2012, 11:14:26 am
Steve Gibson rips Windows a new one - pt 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQfQhW_zXgA#)

Steve Gibson rips Windows a new one - pt 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7F7RKzCet0#)
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 25, 2012, 12:18:43 pm
The guy complains about Windows being used in mission critical systems. Ok fair enough. But I'm somewhat disappointed that he didn't rant about the third party contractors for doing that.  In other words, it's hardly Microsoft's fault when some cheap-arse, lazy vendors sell Windows based industrial control systems to nuclear power plants.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Rerouter on June 25, 2012, 12:24:02 pm
hmm on that subject, i could have sworn some of the modern tektronix spectrum analyzers ran windows or atleast a very similar looking interface,
(havent actually looked at videos)

Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: olsenn on June 25, 2012, 01:06:26 pm
I work for the Canadian military, and all of our servers and workstations run Red Hat Enterprise Linux; that being said, in my experience Linux (not just our software) is LESS stable than Windows 7.

Sometimes I think people are just out to get Microsoft because they see them as fat cat corporate slime... the truth is that Microsoft products aren't as bad as some people say they are. They're not perfect, but no OS is!
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 25, 2012, 01:38:41 pm
They complain about the once a month update cycle , and all the problems it brings controlling and deploying that. Welcome to linux, where updates can be hourly and break existing installations....
No thanks....

As for the rest: they are talking rtos but got confused. For a marquee display you don't need an rtos. You need an embedded os. Not all embedded os's are rtos's....
There are very few real rtos's out there and programming for an rtos is NOT easy....

Besides, for a scrolling text display you need an operating system at all ? Holy crap ...
Imagine a microwave needing an os ...
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 25, 2012, 01:42:08 pm
They complain about the once a month update cycle , and all the problems it brings controlling and deploying that. Welcome to linux, where updates can be hourly and break existing installations....
No thanks....

And it's your choice to allow them to install automatically without you testing them first.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 25, 2012, 02:10:03 pm
They complain about the once a month update cycle , and all the problems it brings controlling and deploying that. Welcome to linux, where updates can be hourly and break existing installations....
No thanks....

And it's your choice to allow them to install automatically without you testing them first.

so it is under windows .. you can turn that off as well...
chances of a windows update breaking a system are small.. chances of a linux update breaking something ... relatively large... especially because they break the api's on purpose in an attempt to force 'binaries' out...

For every patch there is we need to doublecheck with the software vendor if we can install it or not... very annoying.
Cadence and Mentor supply lists of patches that should not be installed , even if they are a security risk , becasue the applications can't handle it.. welcome to the fun world of million dollar linux computing...
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 25, 2012, 02:55:52 pm
They complain about the once a month update cycle , and all the problems it brings controlling and deploying that. Welcome to linux, where updates can be hourly and break existing installations....
No thanks....

And it's your choice to allow them to install automatically without you testing them first.

so it is under windows .. you can turn that off as well...

Yes, but you still have to wait for their monthly patch cycle for security updates to come out!

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chances of a windows update breaking a system are small..

I'm not even going to go there.

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chances of a linux update breaking something ... relatively large... especially because they break the api's on purpose in an attempt to force 'binaries' out...

Or there, actually, as that speaks of your level of knowledge of enterprise systems.

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For every patch there is we need to doublecheck with the software vendor if we can install it or not... very annoying.
Cadence and Mentor supply lists of patches that should not be installed , even if they are a security risk , becasue the applications can't handle it.. welcome to the fun world of million dollar linux computing...

Welcome to the fun world of companies not bothering to keep their software up to date, instead relying on Microsoft's expensive, broken method of keeping every API and ABI available until the stars go out.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 25, 2012, 03:53:34 pm
The problem is twofold
1) the software vendors can't act fast enough to keep up with the development of the OS.
2) ths production environment ( read: compute farm with the software running on it ) can't willy nilly be brought down for some patchwork. The farm is in use , heavily by a whole bunch of people. Some jobs take days to complete.

We got work to do... Our support staff for the RHEL cluster is larger than for the windows users... luckily we have distributed farms and jobs can be submitted to alternate machines while one server is being patched. but it still is a royal pain in the butt.

Cadence and mentor are very clear : this software : this os / kenrel/modules... anything else ... we take our hands off...

look at what Oracle is doing... they are taking Linux into a closed domain. Jsut so they can guarantee uptime.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 25, 2012, 04:21:32 pm
Because they're incapable of changing to keep up with the development model. It's really not that hard, but large companies have made it clear for years they're incapable of changing with the world.

Both platforms have the same problems with updates breaking things. The big difference is that with Windows you're sitting there with your arse in the breeze waiting for MS to do things for you. In a month.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: olsenn on June 25, 2012, 04:42:14 pm
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Because they're incapable of changing to keep up with the development model. It's really not that hard, but large companies have made it clear for years they're incapable of changing with the world.


It's not a matter of being incapable. If you had to pay 200+ employees on average around $30 per hour you would be hesitant to just take away there OS and spend a week getting something new up on every machine, plus security research and everything else that goes along with it, then take a few weeks out to train them all on how to use the new software... by the time they realize that the new software isn't backwards compatable and won't work with all their own software they developed and software they purchased from third parties, they have spent millions of dollars.

There's a thread on this site about "crApple" the disposable OS, Windows the Toy OS... let's face it, there is no perfect operating system out there. I would call Linux a POS but it doesn't deserve to have "OS" in its title. Still, you and I couldn't do any better.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Mechatrommer on June 25, 2012, 04:44:01 pm
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The big difference is that with Windows you're sitting there with your arse in the breeze waiting for MS to do things for you. In a month
morale? dont buy it the first day its released. wait a year, 2 or 5. but i've been waiting linux to become usable to me for many many years! its not that i'm offending linux, but sigh... if you only knew how much hope i put on it.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 25, 2012, 05:14:54 pm
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Because they're incapable of changing to keep up with the development model. It's really not that hard, but large companies have made it clear for years they're incapable of changing with the world.


It's not a matter of being incapable. If you had to pay 200+ employees on average around $30 per hour you would be hesitant to just take away there OS and spend a week getting something new up on every machine, plus security research and everything else that goes along with it, then take a few weeks out to train them all on how to use the new software... by the time they realize that the new software isn't backwards compatable and won't work with all their own software they developed and software they purchased from third parties, they have spent millions of dollars.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am talking about the inability of software companies to maintain their Linux ports. If you'd bother to read, you'd know that.

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I would call Linux a POS but it doesn't deserve to have "OS" in its title. Still, you and I couldn't do any better.

Linux is not an OS. It's a kernel. And no, you certainly can't do any better..

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The big difference is that with Windows you're sitting there with your arse in the breeze waiting for MS to do things for you. In a month
morale? dont buy it the first day its released. wait a year, 2 or 5.

Again, you're so far off the subject I'm not convinced you bothered to read any of the posts.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 25, 2012, 05:35:58 pm
there's another thing at play. The software that run's on the OS has a job to do. This software evolves as well , gets new features etc...
having to go back every few days to run a rebuild of the software because the OS changed... doing regression tests to make sure nothing got broken along the way...

Releasing a dsktop application is one thing. releasing a 5-nines system with a backed guarantee is another... once you are dealing with compute frams the software on those tends to get pricey... very pricey , and the customer wants to have some guarantees..
So that's also a reason the software vendors are reluctant / hesitant to ride the endless patch wagon. They restrict to one particular build of the OS and test against that. Want to run it on something else ? sorry, hands off ... you're in uncharted waters here.

Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 25, 2012, 05:41:27 pm
there's another thing at play. The software that run's on the OS has a job to do. This software evolves as well , gets new features etc...
having to go back every few days to run a rebuild of the software because the OS changed... doing regression tests to make sure nothing got broken along the way...

You don't have to rebuild it every few days. You just have to keep up with major updates (every few MONTHS they come along) and release a small, simple update to keep things working. Assuming your target platform isn't API/ABI stable. The testing is relatively simple. They just refuse to work outside their nice, comfy, five year old environment because they'd have to learn and pay attention.

Again, they're unwilling to adapt to the modern world. Much like music and film companies.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: mukymuk on June 25, 2012, 08:42:37 pm
Quote
but i've been waiting linux to become usable to me for many many years!

I'm right there with you.  I really want to like Linux.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: SeanB on June 25, 2012, 08:51:10 pm
Been using it for years......
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 25, 2012, 09:09:13 pm
I have also been using it for many years. I rarely have to resort to Windows for tasks other than gaming.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: tom66 on June 25, 2012, 09:18:07 pm
Linux works me fine as a desktop OS.

But I -wouldn't- recommend it for average users. Definitely not ready for that. If you're prepared to hack, go ahead, you're unlikely to look back.

Linux was originally written as a desktop-supporting kernel but has been adapted quite well for servers. But you shouldn't use it in a mission critical system just like you shouldn't use Windows.

In addition I've never really "got" why point-of-sale, ATMs and even scopes need to use Windows. Completely unnecessary overkill. At the very least, a lightweight Linux - but even better, a simple application, with no OS.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: TerminalJack505 on June 25, 2012, 09:29:55 pm
Windows was a toy OS compared to others 10 to 15 years ago.  It was a joke at one time.  Today it is actually pretty stable.

I can remember a time when using Windows as a server was just asking for trouble.  For example, I remember when a developer was using either Windows NT or an early version of Windows 2000 for a server.  (This was back in the Pentium 100Mhz to 200Mhz days, by the way.)

He was experiencing unexpected slow-downs.  The server was in a remote location so he'd go to the server and check it and the just the act of checking it out would cause the slow-down to go away.  As it turns out, he was using one of those fancy 3D screensavers--3D Flowerbox, I think.  Every time the screensaver kicked-in his server application would come to a crawl. 

This just goes to highlight Microsoft's server experience during those days.  Screensavers were running at the same priority as other processes!  Basically, Microsoft was still suffering from a desktop mentality in those days. 

So far as Linux goes...  Even if you don't run Linux you should still be thankful for its existence.  For the same reason you should be thankful for AMD even if you are an Intel fan boy/girl--it helps drives innovation.  It helps keeps Microsoft honest.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 26, 2012, 12:38:05 am
there's another thing at play. The software that run's on the OS has a job to do. This software evolves as well , gets new features etc...
having to go back every few days to run a rebuild of the software because the OS changed... doing regression tests to make sure nothing got broken along the way...
If you have a product that breaks after every minor OS update, then I'd consider that software to be a poor design. I'd be wary of any product with this kind of dependency on the operating system, at least on Windows.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 01:47:20 am
there's another thing at play. The software that run's on the OS has a job to do. This software evolves as well , gets new features etc...
having to go back every few days to run a rebuild of the software because the OS changed... doing regression tests to make sure nothing got broken along the way...

You don't have to rebuild it every few days. You just have to keep up with major updates (every few MONTHS they come along) and release a small, simple update to keep things working. Assuming your target platform isn't API/ABI stable. The testing is relatively simple.

Maybe on your little home system this is easy, but not from where I sit. I am responsible for the Lustre and OFED software on our cluster. I only have to keep up with major updates? I wish! Every minor kernel release, we're talking the same kernel version just with added security patches from RedHat, requires I rebuild Lustre and OFED for that specific kernel. Every new minor release of Lustre and OFED requires I rebuild them because they can't possibly build them for all the kernels out there, including ours. Rebuilding and installing is easy? Multiply it by 100s since that's how many nodes there are. Testing is simple? Sure, if you don't mind being the guy responsible for the thousands of dollars per minute lost when you didn't test an update thoroughly enough.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: FlyingBrickyard on June 26, 2012, 01:49:23 am
The guy complains about Windows being used in mission critical systems...

Some 10 years back I climbed into a hypobaric chamber that was apparently run via Win NT.  I'm still here, so, meh.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 01:49:47 am
there's another thing at play. The software that run's on the OS has a job to do. This software evolves as well , gets new features etc...
having to go back every few days to run a rebuild of the software because the OS changed... doing regression tests to make sure nothing got broken along the way...
If you have a product that breaks after every minor OS update, then I'd consider that software to be a poor design. I'd be wary of any product with this kind of dependency on the operating system, at least on Windows.

Well, of course you'd be wary of it on Windows, they have a stable ABI! Linux HPC stuff is tightly integrated with the kernel and does require rebuilds and testing with minor kernel updates. It's a fact of life because of the non standard ABI.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: NiHaoMike on June 26, 2012, 02:41:46 am
I have been using Linux on the desktop at home for years. I do have a VirtualBox with XP in it for the rare times I do need Windows at home, which is not very often at all. When i use a Windows PC at work, I find myself missing the "always on top" button. It's such a simple feature, but it's so useful! (Back in the days, Nvidia bundled a tweak with their drivers that adds the "always on top" button.) Also, direct access to USB devices is much simpler in Linux. (On Windows, you need to find or create a custom INF to use Android development software. On Linux, it just works!) And not surprisingly, the Windows command line is not very good at all (no tab completion, limited width) because most Windows users just don't care about it!

I read that Windows XP SP2 and Vista had a deliberately crippled network stack "to slow the spread of viruses". It wasn't very effective at slowing viruses, but it did work well at slowing down legitimate network programs. I don't think Windows 7 is affected by that, but I'm not sure.

One thing that Linux did well was audio. Getting bit perfect audio output is very easy on Linux, not as easy on Windows. The problem is that some developers saw the mixer feature in Vista and decided they want that on Linux as well. Just treat the digital output of the sound card like the high speed serial port it is and the analog outputs as DACs (with variable attenuators afterwards) attached to those "serial ports". On my PCs, I use plain ALSA and forget about the PulseAudio or dmix junk.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 26, 2012, 03:24:05 am
If you have a product that breaks after every minor OS update, then I'd consider that software to be a poor design. I'd be wary of any product with this kind of dependency on the operating system, at least on Windows.

May i introduce you to the good people at Cadence ? may be you can explain them how they can improve the multimillion dollar software we use ...

Some of their software has a few hundred installations worldwide... the cost of having a dedicated cluster running a locked down OS is peanuts compared to what you pay for that stuff.. they charge per minute of runtime ... you don't 'own' or even 'licence' that... you lease it ... per minute....
Downtime due to not following their OS requirements comes out of your pocket . If you can't tape-out the design because the latest patch you installed broke a script : you pay ... they take their hands off...

As a matter of fact, when they come over to install an update to the software they bring everything: the correct version of the Os and all. It is 'no touchy' !
they release regular bulletins on what patches and kernel builds can be installed. They will test the RHEL patches and advise you what to install, when to install and the order of install ...


Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 26, 2012, 03:29:12 am
And not surprisingly, the Windows command line is not very good at all (no tab completion, limited width)
you must not have used it then ...
mode con lines = 50
and TAB will complete the line.. has ever since SP2 of win XP ...
CD "doc <TAB> will complete with 'uments and settings"

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One thing that Linux did well was audio.

bwahahaaaaaa. that is the WORST thing (after wifi) . audio has been playing correctly since windows 2.0 .... linux has , and still has, tremendous problems with syncing audio and video... a few of my collegues use Linux to design settop boxes for satellite and cable DVR's... and this is their single largest problem... keeping the audio codecs and video codecs running in sync and without stuttering...

Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 26, 2012, 09:32:00 am
there's another thing at play. The software that run's on the OS has a job to do. This software evolves as well , gets new features etc...
having to go back every few days to run a rebuild of the software because the OS changed... doing regression tests to make sure nothing got broken along the way...

You don't have to rebuild it every few days. You just have to keep up with major updates (every few MONTHS they come along) and release a small, simple update to keep things working. Assuming your target platform isn't API/ABI stable. The testing is relatively simple.

Maybe on your little home system this is easy, but not from where I sit. I am responsible for the Lustre and OFED software on our cluster. I only have to keep up with major updates? I wish! Every minor kernel release, we're talking the same kernel version just with added security patches from RedHat, requires I rebuild Lustre and OFED for that specific kernel. Every new minor release of Lustre and OFED requires I rebuild them because they can't possibly build them for all the kernels out there, including ours. Rebuilding and installing is easy? Multiply it by 100s since that's how many nodes there are. Testing is simple? Sure, if you don't mind being the guy responsible for the thousands of dollars per minute lost when you didn't test an update thoroughly enough.

Good grief, once again, I'm talking about development here.

And again, your choice to blindly install every kernel update.. And if they can't provide binaries for current RHEL kernels, well, they're not very good at their job. Which is my point.

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bwahahaaaaaa. that is the WORST thing (after wifi) . audio has been playing correctly since windows 2.0 .... linux has , and still has, tremendous problems with syncing audio and video... a few of my collegues use Linux to design settop boxes for satellite and cable DVR's... and this is their single largest problem... keeping the audio codecs and video codecs running in sync and without stuttering...

Windows audio is hilariously bad as soon as you start doing anything other than playing MP3s. As for sync issues.. not on normal hardware it doesn't. I can't speak for what goes into those boxes.

Wifi's working just fine these days, too. If you ignore the issue I have with Intel's microcode having a memory leak (affects Windows too.). Works great on my five different Atheros chipsets, two different Broadcom chipsets, and the ZyDAS I use for long-range stuff, too. And that's not including the APs.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 03:05:18 pm
And again, your choice to blindly install every kernel update..

I don't, but even if I did, why shouldn't I? You assert only major updates affect anything and testing is a piece of cake. I should be able to swap kernels willy nilly!

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And if they can't provide binaries for current RHEL kernels, well, they're not very good at their job. Which is my point.

They do provide binaries for current RHEL kernels. However, production systems typically aren't on the latest kernel. Since there is no stable ABI, the shipped binaries cannot work on the production system. So now you're either rebuilding your kernel or rebuilding the software. Get it now?
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 26, 2012, 03:25:19 pm
And again, your choice to blindly install every kernel update..

I don't, but even if I did, why shouldn't I? You assert only major updates affect anything and testing is a piece of cake. I should be able to swap kernels willy nilly!

Because each and every update should only be installed if it's necessary on a production system.

Quote
Quote
And if they can't provide binaries for current RHEL kernels, well, they're not very good at their job. Which is my point.

They do provide binaries for current RHEL kernels. However, production systems typically aren't on the latest kernel. Since there is no stable ABI, the shipped binaries cannot work on the production system. So now you're either rebuilding your kernel or rebuilding the software. Get it now?

And you can't obtain the previously built binaries for the previous kernels.. why?

There are ways you can provide ABI stability between minor kernel revisions.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 03:53:49 pm
Because each and every update should only be installed if it's necessary on a production system.

Now you're getting it.

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And you can't obtain the previously built binaries for the previous kernels.. why?

Lol. Seriously? The previous maintenance release was released and built for the current kernel at the time. The current maintenance release is released and built for the current kernel now. What if the kernels are different? Let me guess, you think they should build and test for all the old kernels too. How far back should they go? How many forks of the code should they create to continue supporting the old kernels as the APIs change? How much testing time should be devoted to the various kernel versions and which ones should they concentrate on? Not everyone uses RHEL. Should they release for all of the other distributions' kernels, too? Not having a standard kernel API/ABI causes these issues, and then the linux weenies whine (loudly) that companies' drivers don't support linux well enough. Yeah, no shit, it's much too time consuming and expensive. I don't blame them.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 26, 2012, 04:13:00 pm
Because each and every update should only be installed if it's necessary on a production system.

Now you're getting it.

... I don't have a polite response to that.

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And you can't obtain the previously built binaries for the previous kernels.. why?

Lol. Seriously? The previous maintenance release was released and built for the current kernel at the time. The current maintenance release is released and built for the current kernel now. What if the kernels are different? Let me guess, you think they should build and test for all the old kernels too.

No, I think they should work forwards and bring out updated modules for each kernel release for platforms they claim to support. It's really not that difficult, it can be automated unless an API changes (which it should not on a stable system, which I was led to believe RHEL was. If it isn't, well, that's another reason RHEL is a pile of crap), and if it does change.. well, advance warning! Not that they should need it, as they should keep up with changes to the platform they're working wi- right, sorry, that's too hard..

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How far back should they go? How many forks of the code should they create to continue supporting the old kernels as the APIs change? How much testing time should be devoted to the various kernel versions and which ones should they concentrate on? Not everyone uses RHEL. Should they release for all of the other distributions' kernels, too? Not having a standard kernel API/ABI causes these issues, and then the linux weenies whine (loudly) that companies' drivers don't support linux well enough. Yeah, no shit, it's much too time consuming and expensive. I don't blame them.

It's not as time consuming and expensive as people choose to believe. Again, the development model isn't what they're used to, perhaps they should adapt to it or stop half-supporting a platform.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 04:46:47 pm
... I don't have a polite response to that.

Lol! And with that, I leave you to your opinions, which contradict the real world.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 26, 2012, 04:50:22 pm
... I don't have a polite response to that.

Lol! And with that, I leave you to your opinions, which contradict the real world.

And I'll leave you to your inability to do something as simple as script a module rebuild and email the result!
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Mechatrommer on June 26, 2012, 08:13:38 pm
... I don't have a polite response to that.
Lol! And with that, I leave you to your opinions, which contradict the real world.
And I'll leave you to your inability to do something as simple as script a module rebuild and email the result!
maybe you forget 2bfrank mentioned about 100X difficulty and real life 100s 1000s of dollar lost /minute if anything wrong happen. this is not rebuilding and recompiling hero stuffs, this is a real life making thing works as it intended to. OS should make work for us, not us to make work on them. my 2cnts.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 26, 2012, 08:34:24 pm
... I don't have a polite response to that.
Lol! And with that, I leave you to your opinions, which contradict the real world.
And I'll leave you to your inability to do something as simple as script a module rebuild and email the result!
maybe you forget 2bfrank mentioned about 100X difficulty and real life 100s 1000s of dollar lost /minute if anything wrong happen. this is not rebuilding and recompiling hero stuffs, this is a real life making thing works as it intended to. OS should make work for us, not us to make work on them. my 2cnts.

And once again I am talking about the developers doing the work they should be doing, not the admin having to pick up after their incompetence.

I give up. Stay on Windows, learn nothing.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 26, 2012, 09:27:24 pm
the developers are busy building better routing algorithms, faster timing simulators and better parasitic extractors. They can't be bothered dicking around with a bug in the OS...
The Os needs to be maintained by the Os maker and the Os maker needs to make sure they break nothing. Sadly, in case of 'linux' the OS maker is 'nobody'.... It is too fragmented... i dont like xyz , i'll fork ... Look at ubuntu. every few wweeks there's a new one... what are they on now ? loopy looney ?

Red hat does a pretty good job , but once in a while there is trouble. That's why we are stuck to older builds. The software devs are a different company . They do not have the time to do the regression testing: they got real work to do ... making money of their product. Fixing bugs in the OS does not make them money, and it is not their jobs in the first place. The Os needs to make sure it does not break anything when it gets patched.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: senso on June 26, 2012, 09:37:41 pm
Well, my Windows 7 command line does a tab when I press tab and not an auto-complete, yes there is some sort of work around to enable that via messing in the registry, but it is an hit and miss thing and only works when the moon is in line with saturn..

About audio, yep audio in linux in my laptop is the end of the world, only works up to ubuntu 10.04, anything with that crappy unity thing is to forget, all because my laptop as two audio chips, one for the hdmi that is located in the graphics card and the other is the typical ac97 codec, it should work out of the box, but linux does strange things and swap all the configurations between the two chips, after some bashing it will work, until you reboot or shutdown the computer.

One thing that I like in linux is that to play around with some C code all it needs is gcc -i lol.c, in windows I need ide's, all of them pretty stupid, the only one that I can stand is Qt.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: olsenn on June 26, 2012, 09:54:37 pm
Quote
Look at ubuntu. every few wweeks there's a new one... what are they on now ? loopy looney ?

I just realized that there is a fish called "Sockeye Salmon".
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 26, 2012, 10:26:34 pm
Well, my Windows 7 command line does a tab when I press tab and not an auto-complete,

Then you got a non standard install.
This stuff has always worked for US versions of Windows Xp , Vista and win 7.

I can't vow for the crippled european versions ... ( not microsofts fault ! Blame Nelie Kroes with her stupid anti-competition policies that forces microsoft to remove a bunch of things from windows for the EU market... Apple is allowed to supply a browser and a media player, but not microsoft, no that would be bad ... )

@olsen. sockeye salmon is good.... still hot out of the smoker. some 'dillsenap' on ryebread toast , a slice of that stuff on it .. mmmmm reminds me of my summers in KemiJarvi Finland ( i interned at Nokia during school summer vacations .. was 1989 or so.. beautiful. 80 Km above the polar circle. At midnight the sun was still at a 20 degree angle . on weekends we went fishing in the local lake and had a little metal smoker ...)
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 26, 2012, 10:38:36 pm
It 'works' as far as it goes. It's very much 80s era, though. Windows is not a CLI OS, and DOS was not a good CLI OS.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Omicron on June 26, 2012, 10:47:05 pm
Well, my Windows 7 command line does a tab when I press tab and not an auto-complete, yes there is some sort of work around to enable that via messing in the registry, but it is an hit and miss thing and only works when the moon is in line with saturn..
No need to mess about in the registry. Just click on the top left box and choose "Defaults" from the menu. You'll get a dialog and somewhere to the right there is a checkbox to enable autocomplete. All in all 2 mouse clicks :-)
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: senso on June 26, 2012, 11:57:04 pm
Well, my Windows 7 command line does a tab when I press tab and not an auto-complete, yes there is some sort of work around to enable that via messing in the registry, but it is an hit and miss thing and only works when the moon is in line with saturn..
No need to mess about in the registry. Just click on the top left box and choose "Defaults" from the menu. You'll get a dialog and somewhere to the right there is a checkbox to enable autocomplete. All in all 2 mouse clicks :-)

That check box is checked and it still doesn't auto-complete, its pretty strange but is a common problem around the internets.
And yes I have an EU windows version, its in fact a PT version.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: updatelee on June 27, 2012, 03:40:55 am
I work for the Canadian military, and all of our servers and workstations run Red Hat Enterprise Linux; that being said, in my experience Linux (not just our software) is LESS stable than Windows 7.

Sometimes I think people are just out to get Microsoft because they see them as fat cat corporate slime... the truth is that Microsoft products aren't as bad as some people say they are. They're not perfect, but no OS is!

Not sure where your posted or what your trade is, but Im also CF 3PPCLI and all our workstations are windows XP with a million addon apps running in an attempt to keep it stable and secure. Yet we still regularly have issues with both.

I have one windows computer in the house, 5 linux ones + a router, and two macs

I hate the windows one, just need it for a few specific apps. Id gladly get rid of it in a heart beat if there wernt so many apps that I just cant get on mac or linux. No OS is perfect, but imo windows is defn bottom 3rd.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: PeteInTexas on June 27, 2012, 04:29:25 am
I have also been using it for many years. I rarely have to resort to Windows for tasks other than gaming.

What was hilarious for me was when I switched my wifes computer to Feisty Fawn from Windows.  All she does on this particular computer is web browse (Firefox) and edit the grocery list once a week or so.  She did not notice for almost a year until she came upon some site that insisted on IE.  My wife does not care about gadgets and such at all.  She discovered texting almost a year ago.  She does know when something does not work.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: firewalker on June 27, 2012, 06:03:09 am
I am using GNU/Linux exclusively for more or less 10 years.

Windows (except Vista maybe) is a really good OS. I offers user interfacing in a unique way.  For me one of the biggest mistakes in Windows is "Backward Compatibility".

*nix system are safer because the smaller user base. Take MacOS for example. It supposed to be virus free. Until it's user base grow large. Some days ago Apple was forced to remove the "Virus Free" note from the features of the MacOS. It says now "Designed to be safe".

Alexander.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: amspire on June 27, 2012, 07:29:14 am
You have to take the "Toy Operating System" in context. Windows is probably the most complex operating system on the planet, and Steve Gibson uses it all the time by choice.

But Steve is a security guy, so when he talks about a "Toy Operating System", he is talking about a system that was never designed from the ground up to be hardened against security attacks. When Windows was developed, the developers largely ignored security for over a decade. When Windows XP came out, Steve had a public battle with Microsoft when he said that it was crazy that Microsoft was allowing programs to take direct control over the low level TC/IP protocol - this was a gift to every virus writer.  History proved that Steve was right and Microsoft was wrong, and Microsoft did eventually shut down low level access to the TC/IP protocol.

Since 2009 when Steve made the "Toy Operating System" comment, Windows 7 64 bit has done a huge amount to address the security concerns. Windows 8 will do a lot more, much to the dislike of many.

In this context, OS/X and Linux Workstation are probably equally in the toy operating system category, and I think Steve would have been equally appalled to see an OS/X screen, or a Linux screen after a Kiosk application has crashed.

Linux does allow you to strip out every bit of unneeded junk, and it also makes it possible for an application to have a dedicated screen, so that in the event of an application crash, you are left with a blank or frozen screen.

Richard.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: A-n-d-y on June 27, 2012, 09:36:28 am
The guy complains about Windows being used in mission critical systems...

Some 10 years back I climbed into a hypobaric chamber that was apparently run via Win NT.  I'm still here, so, meh.

..and it's still being used in the future ;)

Prometheus runs on Windows 7!

http://faildesk.net/2012/06/12/prometheus-runs-on-windows-7/ (http://faildesk.net/2012/06/12/prometheus-runs-on-windows-7/)

(http://i.imgur.com/oDzET.jpg)
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: amspire on June 28, 2012, 12:38:52 am
Quote

Some 10 years back I climbed into a hypobaric chamber that was apparently run via Win NT.  I'm still here, so, meh.

..and it's still being used in the future ;)

Prometheus runs on Windows 7!
Love it. So if the captain orders that the ships operating system is wiped and reinstalled after being infected with an evil alien computer virus, the captain finds he has 30 days to activate with Microsoft on Earth before all his terminals get locked out. Even worse, if he has to reactivate after a repair, he only gets 3 days before Microsoft locks everything down.

In fact who even needs aliens when you have Microsoft?

By the way, I still have a pile of NT4 installations in case I ever need them.  The numbers are interesting. A fresh NT4 install used 22MBytes on the hard drive for the Windows operating system, and would run in 32MBytes of RAM comfortably. If you install all the service packs, you probably have to double these numbers.  As long as you didn't need multimedia or USB, it was a pretty good operating system.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 28, 2012, 12:31:10 pm
Nah.. The captain would have the corporate install versions that don't need keys or activation. No problemo...
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 28, 2012, 02:48:19 pm
Imagine running Windows Updates a few light years away.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: SeanB on June 28, 2012, 03:16:57 pm
Found today a copy of Win98SE, still in the wrappper and still with the key. I must have missed it doing the building of computers years ago, I had an assembly line running to push them out. After no 3 i used Ghost and did a quick regedit to put in the key afterwards, much faster and a lot less reboots ( all were identical systems to begin with) than the Ms method of enter key during install.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: nitro2k01 on June 28, 2012, 03:44:57 pm
That check box is checked and it still doesn't auto-complete, its pretty strange but is a common problem around the internets.
And yes I have an EU windows version, its in fact a PT version.
Are you doing run, and then enter "command"? command starts command.com in a DOS VM, i.e. it's basically the old DOS command prompt. What you need to do is run, "cmd", which starts the Windows version of the command prompt. This should allow you to tab complete.

I find Windows tab completion to be lacking and not very well thought out. For example, most/all *NIX shells will give you a space after a file name, and no space after a directory name, under the assumption that you wish to continue the tab completion with a file in that directory. And my pet peeve about Windows tab completion: You're entering a command and you want to add an argument before the last argument. Go back and write something and then press tab. Boom! The tab completion works per se, but wipes the rest of the line.

I can't vow for the crippled european versions ... ( not microsofts fault ! Blame Nelie Kroes with her stupid anti-competition policies that forces microsoft to remove a bunch of things from windows for the EU market... Apple is allowed to supply a browser and a media player, but not microsoft, no that would be bad ... )
They can still distribute it as far as I understand, but they need to show the "browser ballot" to make the user make an active choice. If you're comparing to Microsoft to Apple in this regard, you need to look at the history. What Microsoft is charge for is anticompetitive behavior, starting with the tight integration of IE in Windows 98. The case was about ten years of history of how IE became the market leader. If you remember your history, you know that Apple at about the time shipped with various browsers, and the default one being the now long gone Internet Explorer Mac version (!). Safari is also nowhere near the biggest browser. Even on Mac, it's not close to what IE had at the peak of its popularity. So a similar case against Apple would have little solid ground to stand on.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 28, 2012, 06:19:40 pm
I am done with fanboyism; you NEVER EVER win people to your point of view, which is a good thing, as they are generally a biased and ignorant one, based in denial and lack of an open mind AND A PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE.

This of course does not apply to your god-bothering antics?
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 28, 2012, 07:46:24 pm
oh no ... not again ... OS's might as well be religions...
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: david77 on June 28, 2012, 08:03:38 pm
Oh, leave it out, will you please? Every OS has it's place. They all have positive and negative sides.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Mechatrommer on June 28, 2012, 11:16:19 pm
do it yourself! i am aethism OS'em. but being nurtured by Windows, so i am agnostics skeptism :P
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: nitro2k01 on June 29, 2012, 12:14:01 am
do it yourself! i am aethism OS'em. but being nurtured by Windows, so i am agnostics skeptism :P
Being an OS atheist would mean you want all software to talk directly to the hardware. ;)
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: Monkeh on June 29, 2012, 12:38:05 am
I am done with fanboyism; you NEVER EVER win people to your point of view, which is a good thing, as they are generally a biased and ignorant one, based in denial and lack of an open mind AND A PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE.

This of course does not apply to your god-bothering antics?

I think God must bother you, as he doesn't "bother" me.

Only via people like you.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 29, 2012, 12:49:55 am
sigh ...
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: SeanB on June 29, 2012, 05:13:13 am
It's a tool. Ideally it should not be noticed.
Title: Re: Windows The Toy Operating System
Post by: free_electron on June 29, 2012, 05:36:00 am
There you go. That is the only correct answer. The os is there to run apps a, do filesystem housekeeping , manage screen real estate , interface with network and peripherals. For anything else it should bugger off and let me do the work i need to do without interfering. I don't care who makes it or what it is called, as long as i can run the application i need to run i am happy.
If mods to the os prevent my app from running i will yell at the os makers. They made changes that broke something that was working.