Author Topic: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China  (Read 5040 times)

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Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2019, 04:41:47 am »
Hi,

[Humour]


I have friends who are idiots, they were offended by this comment   >:D

[Humour/]


More seriously, there are country of origin rules that are laid down in trade descriptions regulations.

They generally require that a percentage of the 'value' is added to the product in the country of origin.

For example you take a PCB from country, a chassis from another country and do  final assembly in your country and you might be able to claim made in your country.
By 'value' you say that is where the profit is made.

You see labels, 'made in X assembled from foreign components', which is perfectly truthful.

j - your imaginary friend
 
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Online blueskull

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2019, 04:43:10 am »
j - your imaginary friend

In the case of OP, the imaginary part is i.
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2019, 07:17:33 am »
They generally require that a percentage of the 'value' is added to the product in the country of origin.
Then it is easy since all the biggest international "scam" firms do this trick already by claiming their (*) daughter firm owns the patents and that is where 75% of the profit comes from they pay their taxes in (*) which very conveniently is 0%

(*) fill in any tax evasion country of this planet
 
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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2019, 09:54:08 am »
Well, it happens, when discussions about quality start to have a political agenda - or are a tangent about protectionism in the first place.
One could argue people trying to reframe the country of origin are only 60% as greedy as the greediest person ever seen.

You could label products "Made with Fairy Dust™"... it really is not a question of origin if experience and craftsmanship were applied in design or production. It helps to know what the use cases are, what the customer expects and how well it can be communicated. Bad communication skills are seldom named as a reason for crappy quality.
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2019, 11:18:24 am »
Hi,
We wish to start employing Chinese Electronics Engineers at our UK based lighting company. They will design with cheap Chinese components, and  the  products will get produced in China. We will declare that the products are “British designed and built”. No one will know otherwise. We will sweep the market, putting all other UK lighting companys out of  the way.

We have a contact  electronics company in China who will supply the Chinese Electronics engineers to us. They will work mostly from China, but will sometimes visit us in UK. They will help us to set up a “stooge” UK design and manufacture set up in UK, so that we can invite customers round and convince them that we really are a “UK design and build” company. They won’t suss it out. They wont have a clue what we’re up to.


This has got to be a joke, right? If this is a joke, he should say so before the UK authorities decide to put his company on the radar. If it isn't a joke, what a bloody disgrace. Is his lighting company a subsidiary of Volkswagon? :palm:. Maybe lying to customers and deceptive behaviour is legal in the UK. It certainly is not in advanced countries like Australia where there are severe penalties for such behaviour. In any case, no-one should tolerate being told lies to buy a product.
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2019, 11:23:05 am »
The "Made in England" thing started in the late 19th century when they were #1 and that was a stamp of desirability in tools, clothes, etc.

Other countries followed suit later and it became a trade thing that countries had to mark goods for export.

That made more sense when things were pretty much made in one place but today we are in a globalized market and raw materials, components, etc. move around.

It makes much less sense to use the "made in Countristan" labels today.

When I see web sites or brick and mortar stores displaying American flags and signs saying "proudly made in the U.S. A" I leave pretty fast because I figure they are owned by the kind of nationalists I do not care for and I do not want to give them my business.



By 'value' you say that is where the profit is made.
Value added and profit are not the same thing at all even if distantly related. Also, bear in mind that VAT is paid by companies, not by products.  It is complicated.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2019, 11:46:01 am »

The "Made in England" thing started in the late 19th century when they were #1 and that was a stamp of desirability in tools, clothes, etc.


The way I heard the story was that England demanded Germany to print on all German goods:
"Made in Germany" so the English people would know the inferior quality coming from Germany.
It was a kind of punishment that backfired badly.

That is why "Made in Germany" was the first slogan and only Germany had it on their goods for the longest time.

These days in Germany, we have to add 40% value on imported goods, before it is allowed to be called "Made in Germany"
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2019, 11:49:57 am »
When I see web sites or brick and mortar stores displaying American flags and signs saying "proudly made in the U.S. A" I leave pretty fast because I figure they are owned by the kind of nationalists I do not care for and I do not want to give them my business.
Don't worry... usually it is made in Mexico. Happened to me several times when I ordered stuff from websites like that.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2019, 11:58:05 am »
The way I heard the story was that England demanded Germany to print on all German goods:
"Made in Germany" so the English people would know the inferior quality coming from Germany.
It was a kind of punishment that backfired badly.

I had never heard that but this pages tells the same thing: https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/what-does-the-made-in-label-mean-anymore

I am not sure it totally makes sense. Why require it only from Germany and not from all other foreign countries? And labeling things from Germany and not the ones "Made in England" makes no sense because people would know a marked item was made in Germany but would not know if an unmarked item was made in England or in Brazil. In that case they might prefer the German item.

I think there is probably more to the story.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2019, 12:00:22 pm »
The way I heard the story was that England demanded Germany to print on all German goods:
"Made in Germany" so the English people would know the inferior quality coming from Germany.
It was a kind of punishment that backfired badly.
Looks to be correct.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2019, 12:00:57 pm »
When I see web sites or brick and mortar stores displaying American flags and signs saying "proudly made in the U.S. A" I leave pretty fast because I figure they are owned by the kind of nationalists I do not care for and I do not want to give them my business.
Don't worry... usually it is made in Mexico. Happened to me several times when I ordered stuff from websites like that.
Well, I don't really care that much where the item was made. I just prefer not to give my business to nationalists anywhere. Nationalism is a scourge.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2019, 12:10:15 pm »
The way I heard the story was that England demanded Germany to print on all German goods:
"Made in Germany" so the English people would know the inferior quality coming from Germany.
It was a kind of punishment that backfired badly.

That is why "Made in Germany" was the first slogan and only Germany had it on their goods for the longest time. 

OK, after reading some more I find this is not so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_Marks_Act_1887
The Merchandise Marks Act 1887 was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that stopped foreign manufacturers from falsely claiming that their goods were British-made and selling them in Britain and Europe on that pretence.

So, Germany was not singled out. The act applied to all imported goods and it makes sense that this is the origin of the "Made in England" label which might not be mandated by the law but certainly favored domestic products.

This is another case of those "stupid laws" like "in West Undershirt, Michigan, it is illegal to tie a crocodile to a lamp post on a Sunday afternoon".  And there is no such specific law, just a general law that says pets cannot be tied to street lights any time.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 12:12:47 pm by soldar »
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Online BravoV

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2019, 12:28:31 pm »
One day I really hope to see this:

Quote
Treez is an idiot.


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Imo, you're clearly wrong.

It needs a really good talented personality to be able to survive for "years" in a company that keep paying the wages, probably for doing easy job like repacking and relabeling Chinese imported stuffs, while having fun time playing with hobbyist grade switching power supply circuits at the same time, ... AND ... spent tons of times whining on the net while getting paid.

Not sure you can easily beat that.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2019, 12:51:55 pm »
Hi,
We wish to start employing Chinese Electronics Engineers at our UK based lighting company. They will design with cheap Chinese components, and  the  products will get produced in China. We will declare that the products are “British designed and built”. No one will know otherwise. We will sweep the market, putting all other UK lighting companys out of  the way.

We have a contact  electronics company in China who will supply the Chinese Electronics engineers to us. They will work mostly from China, but will sometimes visit us in UK. They will help us to set up a “stooge” UK design and manufacture set up in UK, so that we can invite customers round and convince them that we really are a “UK design and build” company. They won’t suss it out. They wont have a clue what we’re up to.


This has got to be a joke, right? If this is a joke, he should say so before the UK authorities decide to put his company on the radar. If it isn't a joke, what a bloody disgrace. Is his lighting company a subsidiary of Volkswagon? :palm:. Maybe lying to customers and deceptive behaviour is legal in the UK. It certainly is not in advanced countries like Australia where there are severe penalties for such behaviour. In any case, no-one should tolerate being told lies to buy a product.
Most company's marketing departments lie to some extent, but whether it's legal or not depends on whether certain red lines have been crossed. Look at the adverts for basic things such as hair shampoo and you'll find they make all sorts of silly claims and marketing gimmicks about the product, which everyone knows are false, but they get away with it.
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2019, 01:38:30 pm »
Continuing my studies of the "Made in..." labels.

The text of the Merchandise Marks Act 1887 can be found at archive.org and it is 149 (boring) pages long.

As far as I can tell it did not even mandate "made in anywhere" labels. Rather, the aim was ensure the origin of goods was not misrepresented.  It seems many foreign goods were misrepresented as made in England. But also to prevent other misrepresentations. The act even gives an example that a label like "Paris fashion" might induce a buyer to believe he was buying something made in Paris (when it might be made in England) and this would be against the Act.

So, something imported could not be misrepresented as made in England but there was no obligation to mark it. But if a merchant in England sold an item labeled "Made in X" he was protected from accusations of having represented it as made in Y.

A merchant who sold clothes and represented them as "made in Paris" when they were actually made elsewhere, even England, was equally subject to this law.

The act is long and vague and I am sure made several generations of lawyers very rich.
 
Again, the notion that it was made specifically to protect against imports from Germany seems very spurious.  Fake news! :)
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Offline IanB

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2019, 02:47:56 pm »
Interesting you say the Merchandise Marks Act 1887 "was" an act of the United Kingdom. Did you find that is has been superseded or replaced with newer legislation? Because otherwise it still would be in force today. Acts of Parliament do not expire (unfortunately).
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2019, 03:15:09 pm »
I found the source of my earlier explanation on springer.com...

Quote
Abstract

The British officials who coined the phrase “Made in Germany” intended it as an insult. In 1887, alarmed at an influx of low-priced German products, the British government required goods imported from Germany to be labeled as such. Back then, Germany was to Britain something like China is to Europe or the United States today. It was an aggressive emerging economy with a large store of cheap labor and ambitions to become an economic superpower. But Britain’s attempt to shield domestic companies from competition backfired. Made in Germany became a synonym for quality.1 The story of how Germany succeeded within a few decades still tells us something about the German mindset and tradition.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137340542_1

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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2019, 03:17:45 pm »
Interesting you say the Merchandise Marks Act 1887 "was" an act of the United Kingdom. Did you find that is has been superseded or replaced with newer legislation? Because otherwise it still would be in force today. Acts of Parliament do not expire (unfortunately).
My guess is that even if not explicitly abrogated it has effectively been superseded by more stringent legislation. In other words, complying with more recent legislation puts you in compliance with the 1887 Act.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2019, 03:23:04 pm »
I found the source of my earlier explanation on springer.com...

Quote
Abstract

The British officials who coined the phrase “Made in Germany” intended it as an insult. In 1887, alarmed at an influx of low-priced German products, the British government required goods imported from Germany to be labeled as such. Back then, Germany was to Britain something like China is to Europe or the United States today. It was an aggressive emerging economy with a large store of cheap labor and ambitions to become an economic superpower. But Britain’s attempt to shield domestic companies from competition backfired. Made in Germany became a synonym for quality.1 The story of how Germany succeeded within a few decades still tells us something about the German mindset and tradition.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137340542_1

That is a nice legend but I would need to see some facts that support it. I have shown the 1887 Act does nothing of the sort. Legends and myths are repeated all over the place but that does not make them true. Unless and until I can see some incontrovertible evidence I am going with "myth".
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2019, 03:28:30 pm »
We wish to start employing Chinese Electronics Engineers at our UK based lighting company. They will design with cheap Chinese components, and  the  products will get produced in China. We will declare that the products are “British designed and built”. No one will know otherwise. We will sweep the market, putting all other UK lighting companys out of  the way.

That was quite funny!  :-DD
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2019, 03:52:21 pm »
Acts of Parliament do not expire (unfortunately).
Well, I am not sure legislation that expires automatically is a good idea. In the state of Idaho all regulations expire automatically on a certain date of the year unless renewed explicitly. Then the legislature forgets to do it and.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVW1Tmj7Vz4?t=1
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2019, 05:00:34 pm »
That is a nice legend but I would need to see some facts that support it. I have shown the 1887 Act does nothing of the sort. Legends and myths are repeated all over the place but that does not make them true. Unless and until I can see some incontrovertible evidence I am going with "myth".
Read this, real named persons with their quotes, and references FROM THAT ERA it is not a legend it is history.

https://supplystudies.com/2017/07/26/the-making-of-made-in/
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 05:02:30 pm by Kjelt »
 
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Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2019, 05:15:00 pm »
Congratulations! This is the best troll post I've read all week.  :-DD
Nothing lasts as long as a workaround.
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2019, 05:49:30 pm »
Read this, real named persons with their quotes, and references FROM THAT ERA it is not a legend it is history.
https://supplystudies.com/2017/07/26/the-making-of-made-in/

I have read it and it is very interesting and enlightning. I still don't see that the Act was aimed at Germany. It seems it affected Germany most because they were the largest trader or supplier.

German manufacturers did not sell directly to the British public but to importers/merchants who were the ones trying to pass inferior imported goods as "made in England". The Act was directly aimed against such practices and against the English merchants who engaged in them and it only affected German merchants indirectly.

A German merchant was not obligated to mark his goods for export as "Made in Germany" but the importing merchant was obligated to not misrepresent their origin. He did not even have to say where they were made but he could not say they were "Made in England" when in fact they were not.

Again, reading the act, I see a clear intention of regulating the market with "truth in advertising" and not any intention to single out any country in particular.

It was trying to avoid misrepresentation of the origin of goods and even gives the example that garments made in England should not be made to appear as if made in France, which, I assume, was more desirable.

I guess if you look at it from a certain point you could make the case that it affected Germany most.

And, let us not forget that Germany in the late 19th century was quite a powerhouse. Their steel, chemical and other industries were first rate and in the late 19th century and first half of the 20th century they managed to use all that to give the world quite some headaches for which the world needed quite some aspirin.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Wish to take Electronics engineers from China
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2019, 06:05:12 pm »
As I read it it was indeed intended to prevent false consumer information.
But as said the consumers were already buying the "inferior" but cheaper priced products and by labeling them they knew that this was the reasonably priced products to purchase instead of switching to the more expensive and doubtfully much better british products.
 
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