With Travel Halted, What Happens To The Planes?

[Alex Eisenhut]

https://youtu.be/D9uZmmoexUk

I thought it was interesting.

[Monkeh]

Also, this happens: https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/ec0e5875b315e9e5862585ae007cd448/$FILE/2020-16-51_Emergency.pdf

[Gyro]

Also, this happens: https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/ec0e5875b315e9e5862585ae007cd448/$FILE/2020-16-51_Emergency.pdf

From the Background section:

This condition, if not addressed, could result in compressor stalls and dual-engine power loss without the ability to restart, which could result in a forced off-airport landing.

 


Presumably it's another one that applies to all those 737Maxs that have been sitting on the ground around the world for over a year now - probably not the only valve!

[Monkeh]

Presumably it's another one that applies to all those 737Maxs that have been sitting on the ground around the world for over a year now - probably not the only valve!

Possibly, it depends on the valve design and orientation. They're not the same engines. If they ever get the Max back off the ground they'll be in for a complete overhaul first, I imagine.

[Gyro]

I wonder how many 'Engine bleed air 5th stage check valves' Boeing have in stock!

[IanB]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

[jogri]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

No, this means a descent with descent rates that may or may not be fully approved for passenger flights by the airplane manufacturer, followed by a landing at a non-ICAO registered aerodrome. This procedure may be followed by an unscheduled rapid disassembly either during the descent phase or during the landing.

[Gyro]

Spade -> 'Earth inverting horticultural instrument'. 

[ConKbot]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACA_Flight_110
They are keeping it optimistic.

[paulca]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

Plausibly, but you'd be amazed at how far a full airliner can glide.... if it has altitude to do so.

[WattsThat]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

Plausibly, but you'd be amazed at how far a full airliner can glide.... if it has altitude to do so.

No doubt you are referring to this example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Any aircraft that crashes in an uncontrolled fashion due to the loss of power is the very definition of pilot error. There is no excuse for losing control of an aircraft due to a loss of propulsion. Period. You do not stop flying the aircraft until it is no longer moving.

Aviate, navigate, communicate.

[langwadt]

Also, this happens: https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/ec0e5875b315e9e5862585ae007cd448/$FILE/2020-16-51_Emergency.pdf

From the Background section:

This condition, if not addressed, could result in compressor stalls and dual-engine power loss without the ability to restart, which could result in a forced off-airport landing.

 


Presumably it's another one that applies to all those 737Maxs that have been sitting on the ground around the world for over a year now - probably not the only valve!

If you had read it you would know that it only applies to the 737NG not the Max, it has different engines

[SeanB]

I wonder how many 'Engine bleed air 5th stage check valves' Boeing have in stock!

Likely not many, the more important thing is how many can the manufacturer and the designated overhaul facilities overhaul per week, as those kinds of equipment are designed to be overhauled and repaired multiple times in their operational life.  The more worrying thing is that many of the parts will have time expired during this period, and will need to be taken out and replaced, plus the majority of these aircraft are being stored in far from ideal conditions, and with far from ideal preparation other than put covers on and tape up ports. you will find many will have unseen corrosion, and many will have failures almost immediately after being placed back into service.

Batteries as well are a worry, as they will have needed to be removed and stored in a battery maintainer that keeps them properly charged, but likely they are just left disconnected in the avionics bay at best, or have been left connected and thus have overdischarged to the point they are useless, or for the lithium ones, have dropped down to the point the controllers have deemed them unusable and failed them.

Going to be a lot of the older fleet going into scrap metal as well, at least those that are fully paid off, so that the scrap price, after salvaging all saleable parts for other aircraft, is more than the cost of scrapping them. You are also going to find a lot of lease aircraft in a quandry, not worth much any more, still under loans, and not able to earn income, plus every month the bill for storage increases. Going to be a lot of airlines closing and merging, and quite a few national carriers (the one here for instance) are going to either need massive government funding, or will be closed, restructured or sold off.

Friday was the first time I had seen any RJ's fly out of the airfields near me for some time, and there is a distinct lack of air traffic to the major airline as well, though there is still a fair amount of helicopter traffic, as most of it is for medical cases, and for military use.

[Rick Law]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

No, this means a descent with descent rates that may or may not be fully approved for passenger flights by the airplane manufacturer, followed by a landing at a non-ICAO registered aerodrome. This procedure may be followed by an unscheduled rapid disassembly either during the descent phase or during the landing.

[RL: Bold added to quote]

Pardon my ignorance, what does "unscheduled rapid disassembly" means?  Is that some kind of airline lingo for the plane falling apart while descending for the landing?  If so, this euphemism totally obscure the reality here.

[peter-h]

Ignore it; he's playing with you.

That valve jamming is potentially a loss of much or most of the engine power, which is bad news if it happens in both engines at the same time. Google BA038 for example.

[langwadt]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

No, this means a descent with descent rates that may or may not be fully approved for passenger flights by the airplane manufacturer, followed by a landing at a non-ICAO registered aerodrome. This procedure may be followed by an unscheduled rapid disassembly either during the descent phase or during the landing.

and airliner doesn't just fall out of the sky because it loses engine power

[langwadt]

Ignore it; he's playing with you.

That valve jamming is potentially a loss of much or most of the engine power, which is bad news if it happens in both engines at the same time. Google BA038 for example.

if the valve gets stuck the compressor stalls and the engine automatically shuts down and cannot be restarted

[jogri]

Pardon my ignorance, what does "unscheduled rapid disassembly" means?  Is that some kind of airline lingo for the plane falling apart while descending for the landing?  If so, this euphemism totally obscure the reality here.

It's a term that is commonly used as an euphemism when a rocket decides to blow up. Afaik no airline uses this term (but SpaceX uses it to describe their landing failures), it's just a joke phrase like "the front fell off".

[IanB]

Ignore it; he's playing with you.

It's a term that is commonly used as an euphemism when a rocket decides to blow up.

 

[sleemanj]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

Plausibly, but you'd be amazed at how far a full airliner can glide.... if it has altitude to do so.

No doubt you are referring to this example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Gimli might be the more famous, but Air Transat is way more pucker inducing...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

120km glide over the open ocean to the Azores (and they still had to lose excess altitude!).  A good example of how airliners are more like massive self launching sailplanes than we give them credit for.

[WattsThat]

That you for the Air Transat link, I was unaware of that event.

I am not surprised that both pilots mentioned had glider ratings. With that experience, one learns from your first flight that without power, you get one and only one chance for a successful landing.

[Rick Law]

Pardon my ignorance, what does "unscheduled rapid disassembly" means?  Is that some kind of airline lingo for the plane falling apart while descending for the landing?  If so, this euphemism totally obscure the reality here.

It's a term that is commonly used as an euphemism when a rocket decides to blow up. Afaik no airline uses this term (but SpaceX uses it to describe their landing failures), it's just a joke phrase like "the front fell off".

Yeah, that's what I thought.  A way over the top euphemism.

[IanB]

Reading the story of Air Transat was also disturbing. Two experienced pilots were flying a plane in which fuel was disappearing much faster than their flight plan said it should be consumed by the engines. So much so that alarms went off. And yet, when a tank was unexpectedly low on fuel, they pumped even more fuel into the empty tank and watched that disappear too. And then they said "Oops! We ran out of fuel!" If there was ever a case of human error, this was it.

It's worrying, because although there is a place for checklists and standard operating procedures, you also have to think. You can't check your brain at the door and leave it behind.

[SkyMaster]

which could result in a forced off-airport landing

I get the feeling this means "a crash" 

Plausibly, but you'd be amazed at how far a full airliner can glide.... if it has altitude to do so.

No doubt you are referring to this example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Any aircraft that crashes in an uncontrolled fashion due to the loss of power is the very definition of pilot error. There is no excuse for losing control of an aircraft due to a loss of propulsion. Period. You do not stop flying the aircraft until it is no longer moving.

Aviate, navigate, communicate.

There was also Air Transat Flight 236 that glided on a long distance before successfully landing (okay, it was a hard landing).

But these all-engine-out landing are only successful in day VFR condition. At night or in IFR condition, gliding to a successful landing would required a tremendous amount of luck.

 

[SkyMaster]

Reading the story of Air Transat was also disturbing. Two experienced pilots were flying a plane in which fuel was disappearing much faster than their flight plan said it should be consumed by the engines. So much so that alarms went off. And yet, when a tank was unexpectedly low on fuel, they pumped even more fuel into the empty tank and watched that disappear too. And then they said "Oops! We ran out of fuel!" If there was ever a case of human error, this was it.

It's worrying, because although there is a place for checklists and standard operating procedures, you also have to think. You can't check your brain at the door and leave it behind.

The Air Transat Flight 236 crew were busy handling a low oil temperature indication when they observed that an automatic fuel transfer started sooner than expected. From that point the captain was trusting less and less the avionics of his plane. Also, the crew were in contact with the maintenance person from the airline and the crew followed the maintenance person instructions. Following the investigation, Airbus revised the A330 flight manual in regard to suspected fuel leak.

Also, it is always easy to judge any crew decision, after all the facts are available and weeks or months are spent reviewing the event.

The Accident Report, from the Government of Portugal, is available. It is only 103 pages long and easy to read.