Author Topic: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'  (Read 20855 times)

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Offline Sionyn

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Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« on: August 29, 2015, 06:51:00 pm »
have you ever heard of such nonsense
A court based in Toulouse has awarded a disability claim of €800 per month for three years over a 39-year-old woman's "hypersensitivity to electromagnetic waves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34075146

but wait theres more idiocy
student at the Fay School in Massachusetts say that the Wi-Fi at the institution is making their child sick
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2975945/mobile-wireless/massachusetts-boarding-school-fay-southborough-sued-over-wi-fi-sickness.html
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Online retrolefty

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 07:08:28 pm »
have you ever heard of such nonsense
A court based in Toulouse has awarded a disability claim of €800 per month for three years over a 39-year-old woman's "hypersensitivity to electromagnetic waves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34075146

but wait theres more idiocy
student at the Fay School in Massachusetts say that the Wi-Fi at the institution is making their child sick
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2975945/mobile-wireless/massachusetts-boarding-school-fay-southborough-sued-over-wi-fi-sickness.html

 Just a not uncommon human propensity to try and get something for nothing. Many times it's the greed of a lawyer working on contingency basis.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 07:10:19 pm »
I believe people suffering from "hypersensitivity to electromagnetic waves" have real problems, the cause of the problem is just misattributed to EMF. It's sad that pseudo-science is so common in this day and age. It's easy to get the feeling things are going downhill as well but it might be we are just better at spotting it? I mean who would have heard about some court-case in Toulouse 30 years ago? (Unless you live in France of course).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:52:09 pm by apis »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 07:13:47 pm »
Just a not uncommon human propensity to try and get something for nothing. Many times it's the greed of a lawyer working on contingency basis.
I don't know what the rules are in Toulouse but most countries doesn't allow contingent fees as far as I know.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 07:15:19 pm by apis »
 

Online retrolefty

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 07:50:51 pm »
Just a not uncommon human propensity to try and get something for nothing. Many times it's the greed of a lawyer working on contingency basis.
I don't know what the rules are in Toulouse but most countries doesn't allow contingent fees as far as I know.

 That's to their credit if/where true. Here in the U.S. the lawyers are a very well funded and represented special interest group. Ambulance-chasers is one coined phrase they go by here.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 08:06:41 pm »
If they are paying anyway for mental disabilities, why not this'd one?
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Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2015, 08:27:24 pm »
If they are paying anyway for mental disabilities, why not this'd one?
I was about to say - it's more likely that the woman is suffering schizophrenia and is getting her disability benefits for that reason but is under the delusion its her EMF condition that is being paid for. Then again the source is the BBC not the Daily Mail, so maybe it's true?
 

Offline Sionyn

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2015, 08:41:55 pm »
i agree most likely a mental disorder, it dose beg the question why isnt she effected by natural light or any other more powerful sources of EM radiation surely that is the final nail coffin for these so called disorders ?

maybe its a education thing, much like the bullcrap about mobile phones people just dont understand the difference between ionizing radiation and non ionizing.

 
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Offline Chris C

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 09:07:19 pm »
I was about to say - it's more likely that the woman is suffering schizophrenia and is getting her disability benefits for that reason but is under the delusion its her EMF condition that is being paid for. Then again the source is the BBC not the Daily Mail, so maybe it's true?

Bingo.

My mother suffers from EMF sensitivity.  The last time I had any contact with her, it's because I had to handle some of her affairs while she was involuntarily committed for two weeks.  A result of calling the police repeatedly for two hours straight, in an attempt to get them to deal with her landlord; who she believed was sneaking into her apartment while she slept, and peeing on the kitchen floor.  I actually did find pee on the kitchen floor, but it was easily identifiable by smell as being from her male cat.  At the same time, she was also suing the university she was attending, because it was infested with spiders too small to see, that were biting her and causing a skin rash.  Her other ailments, including EMF sensitivity, were a result of being cursed by witches from a church she used to attend that was actually a coven.  I could go on, but you get the idea.

Perhaps there is such a thing as EMF sensitivity, perhaps not.  In families where genetics causes males to see only two primary colors (color blindness), females sometimes have the ability to see four (tetrachromatism, which adds true yellow receptors to the cornea).  There are people with skin so stretchy they can pull their neck skin up over their face.  There's a girl in Russia who is abnormally strong for her build, and has somewhat translucent skin.  The true extent to which genetics makes us different isn't really known.

But the thing about EMF sensitivity is, I haven't encountered one person claiming to have it, that has any semblance of sanity.

And this Marine Richard is no exception.  A document she wrote:

http://www.next-up.org/pdf/Marine_Richard_Sous_l_ondee_2012.pdf

There's a whole calliope of crazy there.  Including many easily disputable things.  Just to pick out one, she claims to be able to reliably feel when a cell phone is about to ring, 10-15 seconds before it happens.  Anyone who has left a cell phone next to an amplified speaker knows that there is indeed a burst of RF transmissions before it rings, but no more than 1-3 seconds before.

I have no problem with Marine being on disability for schizophrenia, or even unspecified ailments.  But I sincerely hope the courts aren't opening the doors to allowing the crazies to make their own diagnoses.
 

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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2015, 09:48:24 pm »
Not sure if this is urban myth or not, but isn't there some story of folks receiving AM radio through their tooth fillings, something to do with the fillings operating in the non-linear region as a detector?
 

Online retrolefty

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2015, 09:52:49 pm »
Not sure if this is urban myth or not, but isn't there some story of folks receiving AM radio through their tooth fillings, something to do with the fillings operating in the non-linear region as a detector?

 I too read something about that many years ago and have no idea if fact or myth. Also heard about solders during WW1 in the trenches using soap bars and razor blade to receive radio broadcasts. Again might be something to it or not.

 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2015, 10:05:45 pm »
I too read something about that many years ago and have no idea if fact or myth. Also heard about solders during WW1 in the trenches using soap bars and razor blade to receive radio broadcasts. Again might be something to it or not.
Sounds more than feasible. The blades could be intertwined much like a variable capacitor, with coiled wire for the tuned circuit, AM rectifier diode could be a cats whisker, and the high impedance headphones they used for field telephones (which I think used ground current signalling and wires connected between trenches via rifle bayonets) for listening on.

I made that kind of stuff as a kid and it worked great. Much better with the OC70,72 TRF amplier PNPs, Ever Ready batteriy and loudspeaker. But I preferred the "free" crystal set really. The bloody antenna was as big as my back garden though.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2015, 10:24:21 pm »
The bluing on razor blades (of the time) makes a rectifying junction, when used carefully.

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Online retrolefty

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2015, 10:25:53 pm »
I too read something about that many years ago and have no idea if fact or myth. Also heard about solders during WW1 in the trenches using soap bars and razor blade to receive radio broadcasts. Again might be something to it or not.
Sounds more than feasible. The blades could be intertwined much like a variable capacitor, with coiled wire for the tuned circuit, AM rectifier diode could be a cats whisker, and the high impedance headphones they used for field telephones (which I think used ground current signalling and wires connected between trenches via rifle bayonets) for listening on.


I made that kind of stuff as a kid and it worked great. Much better with the OC70,72 TRF amplier PNPs, Ever Ready batteriy and loudspeaker. But I preferred the "free" crystal set really. The bloody antenna was as big as my back garden though.

 I used a Philco 'cat's whisker' crystal detector wired to a cap and a crystal ear piece all wired to an outside 40 ft antenna around 1958 or so. Worked great, however the problem was I  lived a about 2 miles from KCBS 50KW AM station and could never receive any other signal except that. Found I could just wire a 1N34A diode across the crystal ear piece with the same result, no antenna required. Problem was it was a all news station and not too interesting to a 11 year old. Do recall a news broadcast reporting the the newly formed NASA had just selected the first 7 newly named 'astronauts', that was pretty exciting to me at the time.


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« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 11:22:01 pm by retrolefty »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2015, 11:35:56 pm »
Well, there's also this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644455 (and many other studies) that have not been able to see any correlation... You can't just cherry pick the one odd study that happen to agree with your belief.

Do you have a reference for the WHO claim, it should be on their website somewhere I belive?

I don't say this is pseudo-science because I believe it improbable but because I have heard results from several studies before and people claiming to suffer from EMF sensitivity show no symptoms when tested in double-blind trials. That doesn't mean they are not suffering from sensitivity to something else or some other aliment but it does not appear to be caused by EMF.
 

Online retrolefty

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2015, 11:40:54 pm »
Well, there's also this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644455 (and many other studies) that have not been able to see any correlation... You can't just cherry pick the one odd study that happen to agree with your belief.

Do you have a reference for the WHO claim, it should be on their website somewhere I belive?

I don't say this is pseudo-science because I believe it improbable but because I have heard results from several studies before and people claiming to suffer from EMF sensitivity show no symptoms when tested in double-blind trials. That doesn't mean they are not suffering from sensitivity to something else or some other aliment but it does not appear to be caused by EMF.

 Not just double blind tests required but also test for Placebo effect as there are always some people who will show symptoms or cures just because of the suggestion that it works, even when not exposed to the test variable. Human brain is much more complex then we can presently understand.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2015, 11:43:11 pm »
Well, there's also this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644455 (and many other studies) that have not been able to see any correlation... You can't just cherry pick the one odd study that happen to agree with your belief.
Why not?
The mass media, and drug companies do it all the time.
Quote
Do you have a reference for the WHO claim, it should be on their website somewhere I belive?

I don't say this is pseudo-science because I believe it improbable but because I have heard results from several studies before and people claiming to suffer from EMF sensitivity show no symptoms when tested in double-blind trials. That doesn't mean they are not suffering from sensitivity to something else or some other aliment but it does not appear to be caused by EMF.
It pays to see who does underwrite those studies; Motorola has underwritten a number of studies that say cell phones and whatnot are safe; do I believe them?
About as much as I believe Monsanto says Round UP herbicide is safe.

I will say this;
Much of what we "Think" is scientifically conducted studies is little more than propaganda.
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Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2015, 11:48:53 pm »
Not just double blind tests required but also test for Placebo effect as there are always some people who will show symptoms or cures just because of the suggestion that it works, even when not exposed to the test variable. Human brain is much more complex then we can presently understand.
Yes, the normal procedure is to have a control group that goes through the exact same trials in order to adjust for placebo. And as a rule of thumb, a single study is not enough because a single team might fake data or simply fail in some other way; the results must be reproducible by others so you need at least two independent high quality trials.
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2015, 12:01:40 am »
let's assume it's real.

wouldn't that force you to live in the sticks (middle of nowhere) away from most civilization?
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2015, 12:04:02 am »
let's assume it's real.

wouldn't that force you to live in the sticks (middle of nowhere) away from most civilization?
Maybe not you might have to not have your bed on the other side of the wall from one of those new "Smalr Meters".
You might not be able to own a cell phone or a cordless phone.
Your life would be fairly normal by 1960s standards.
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Online retrolefty

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2015, 12:04:07 am »
let's assume it's real.

wouldn't that force you to live in the sticks (middle of nowhere) away from most civilization?

 Would depend on the frequency the person was sensitive to. VLF, LF, HF goes everywhere in the world and even penetrate the oceans.

 

Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2015, 12:06:01 am »
...

I will say this;
Much of what we "Think" is scientifically conducted studies is little more than propaganda.
Yes, very true!

I have heard that much of the pro LCHF studies that were published were paid for by the meat and dairy industry. ::)

It's not always easy to figure out who is paying for the research though. Some scientist might be funded by cellphone manufacturers and they shouldn't be trusted of course. But serious scientists working at the bigger universities can generally tell the difference, media might pick the bad ones though (wonder why). That is yet another reason why it's so important to look at many independent studies.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2015, 12:15:06 am »
...

I will say this;
Much of what we "Think" is scientifically conducted studies is little more than propaganda.
Yes, very true!

I have heard that much of the pro LCHF studies that were published were paid for by the meat and dairy industry. ::)

It's not always easy to figure out who is paying for the research though. Some scientist might be funded by cellphone manufacturers and they shouldn't be trusted of course. But serious scientists working at the bigger universities can generally tell the difference, media might pick the bad ones though (wonder why). That is yet another reason why it's so important to look at many independent studies.

I agree with you; there is a chance the larger colleges and universities may be able to conduct good studies....
Here it comes...
More often than not they are funded by grants from large companies...

The potential for having a prof. begin a study on the health effects of cellphones and the college getting a Mega-Buck grant from Samsung to fund other activities would end that study on the health effects of cellphones.

Mass media is this way, here in the US we see commercials from Big Pharma every third commerical, and every ten is from some war material manufacturer (GE GD etc...). These people take editorial control of the media outlet's content.
The latter is why war coverage in this country is done from a very detached point of view, not like the old days of Viet Nam, Korea and WW-2. The reason I bring this up is the same system is also in place at the college level.

We use to have a congressman who is noted for this quote..
"Money talks and Bullshit walks."


Wish I had not taken that damned red pill...
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Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2015, 12:40:59 am »
...
More often than not they are funded by grants from large companies...

The potential for having a prof. begin a study on the health effects of cellphones and the college getting a Mega-Buck grant from Samsung to fund other activities would end that study on the health effects of cellphones.
...
There might be some truth to that, but they would have to bribe a whole lot of people in many different countries. Of course, if the company is big enough that might be possible.

I've heard rumours that antidepressants have not been proven to be significantly better than placebo but was given approval anyway for different reasons... Certainly very profitable medicines for the pharmaceutical industries, and convenient for doctors.

:-\ I don't know, I don't think it's black or white but there is certainly a lot of corruption.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 12:42:35 am by apis »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2015, 12:57:59 am »
I was wondering how long it would take someone to post this as a typical "make your blood boil, look at these idiots" bit. As usual, the people who get angry are the ones who are idiots.

What a classy way to join a discussion...
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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2015, 03:04:16 am »
It pays to see who does underwrite those studies; Motorola has underwritten a number of studies that say cell phones and whatnot are safe; do I believe them?
About as much as I believe Monsanto says Round UP herbicide is safe.
Most (knowledgeable) GMO supporters don't actually use GMOs or the chemicals often used with them. While practically all wireless engineers do use wireless at home, and in fact, many use more than the average consumer does.

Thus far, the most significant health hazards of cell phones and other wireless devices are indirect, as in stuff like texting while driving and people playing with them late into the night instead of getting enough sleep. Correlating heavy use of wireless devices with health problems can thus give the impression that the wireless itself is to blame.

Maybe we should push for infrared communication with RF fallback in order to boost bandwidth and reduce RF exposure at the same time? Those who then claim that infrared is harmful should then be reminded that old fashioned incandescent bulbs emit a lot of it.
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Offline LukeW

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2015, 07:50:48 am »
About as much as I believe Monsanto says Round UP herbicide is safe.

 ::) Look over there, vaccines and chemtrails!

Quote
Research into this area suggests that most of the people affected have been exposed to chemicals, usually in an industrial setting or via cleaning products. For reasons that are not understood this causes them to be sensitive to certain types of EMF under certain conditions.

What a load of crap.
Any kind of science or research at all to support this? And no, Alex Jones and PrisonPlanet don't count as peer-reviewed sources.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2015, 02:19:05 pm »
Actually, it's quite interesting that you keep talking about beliefs. I never used that word ...
You used the words like "idiots" and "most doctors refused to believe it".

Right, and you just ignore the ones that contradict your beliefs.
No, you are missing the point.  Anyone can post a link to their favourite PubMed study, it doesn't really prove anything. There have been many studies that have not found any correlation. You need to do a survey of all the literature in order to draw any conclusion. That's why WHO's opinion is of value since their recommendations are typically based on a systematic literature review performed by experts in the field.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Electromagnetic+hypersensitivity+who&l=1
Also, it's mentioned in the BBC article, the very first link in the very first post.
But the BBC also wrote this:
Quote from: BBC
In the UK, electromagnetic hypersensitivity is not a recognised condition.
That's because Public Health England says there is no scientific evidence that electromagnetic fields damage people's health.
The WHO agrees and believes more research on long-term health effects needs to be done.
That seems a bit contradictory from the first statement, no?

Having looked at the WHO link you provided I have to wonder if you bothered to read it?
Quote from: World Health Organization
The majority of studies indicate that EHS individuals cannot detect EMF exposure any more accurately than non-EHS individuals. Well controlled and conducted double-blind studies have shown that symptoms were not correlated with EMF exposure.
[...]
EHS has no clear diagnostic criteria and there is no scientific basis to link EHS symptoms to EMF exposure. Further, EHS is not a medical diagnosis, nor is it clear that it represents a single medical problem.
Source: http://www.who.int/peh-emf/publications/facts/fs296/en/

WHO also has a good FAQ on EMF:
Quote from: World Health Organization
Conclusions from scientific research
In the area of biological effects and medical applications of non-ionizing radiation approximately 25,000 articles have been published over the past 30 years. Despite the feeling of some people that more research needs to be done, scientific knowledge in this area is now more extensive than for most chemicals. Based on a recent in-depth review of the scientific literature, the WHO concluded that current evidence does not confirm the existence of any health consequences from exposure to low level electromagnetic fields. However, some gaps in knowledge about biological effects exist and need further research.
[...]
There is little scientific evidence to support the idea of electromagnetic hypersensitivity. Recent Scandinavian studies found that individuals do not show consistent reactions under properly controlled conditions of electromagnetic field exposure. Nor is there any accepted biological mechanism to explain hypersensitivity. Research on this subject is difficult because many other subjective responses may be involved, apart from direct effects of fields themselves. More studies are continuing on the subject.
Source: http://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/WhatisEMF/en/index1.html

So it looks like WHO agree with what most people have been saying in this thread, EHS is a real problem for many but it's likely not caused by EMF.
 

Offline timb

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Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2015, 03:37:29 pm »
The tiny spiders that live behind my eyelids told me that EMF and Morgellons and chemtrails are really CIA experiments.


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Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2015, 03:55:27 pm »
Mojo Chan, the science is settled with numerous researches. Don't be a science denier.
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Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2015, 04:15:30 pm »
About as much as I believe Monsanto says Round UP herbicide is safe.

I will say this;
Much of what we "Think" is scientifically conducted studies is little more than propaganda.

But even the propaganda study from the other side of the RoundUp argument actually showed that male mice drinking Round Up suffered less cancers and there was no ill effects in either gender, well when you took into account the line of mice used are purposely bred for their absurdly high spontaneous cancer rates and they were left alive much longer than anybody except for the Big Organic industry would count as ethical...



And I can't believe I just stuck up for Monsanto.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2015, 04:38:58 pm »
I was wondering how long it would take someone to post this as a typical "make your blood boil, look at these idiots" bit. As usual, the people who get angry are the ones who are idiots.

The WHO recognizes this condition. There have been tests where it has been determined to exist in controlled conditions: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21793784

Note that in that test they found that the woman in question was sensitive to the EMF being turned on or off, but not to it simply being on or off. Since many wireless devices are quite aggressive about power management these days that happens a lot.

Research into this area suggests that most of the people affected have been exposed to chemicals, usually in an industrial setting or via cleaning products. For reasons that are not understood this causes them to be sensitive to certain types of EMF under certain conditions.

I can see this being the next CFS (ME). Dismissed at first, most doctors refused to believe it, but now recognized and starting to be understood. I happen to suffer from that and I'm just glad mine developed in the 2000s and not 10 years earlier when I would probably have been told it was psychological and dismissed.

Mojo, there may be some needles in this haystack, but I am disappointed to hear someone with some knowledge of technology using such loose terminology as "exposure to chemicals".  Without exposure to chemicals like water, salt and hemoglobin you die.  The only hope of finding if there is something going on is to create focused hypotheses and test them. 

Even if you do understand the nuances, using speech like this arms the half (or less) informed who do such things as conflating ionizing radiation with RF radiation.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2015, 06:03:57 pm »
About as much as I believe Monsanto says Round UP herbicide is safe.

I will say this;
Much of what we "Think" is scientifically conducted studies is little more than propaganda.

But even the propaganda study from the other side of the RoundUp argument actually showed that male mice drinking Round Up suffered less cancers and there was no ill effects in either gender, well when you took into account the line of mice used are purposely bred for their absurdly high spontaneous cancer rates and they were left alive much longer than anybody except for the Big Organic industry would count as ethical...



And I can't believe I just stuck up for Monsanto.

I never saw the study; a study on its own is meaningless unless you can see all everything involved in the making of that study. Including but not limited to the discussions that set the ground rules for the study.

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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2015, 06:05:08 pm »
Mojo Chan, the science is settled with numerous researches. Don't be a science denier.

The science is never settled that is the beauty of the scientific method.

That phrase is often used by groups who are afraid of further study.

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Offline mos6502

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2015, 06:51:49 pm »


Say what?
for(;;);
 

Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2015, 07:18:26 pm »
When you start really looking at this stuff you realise that there is a lot of stuff that medical science doesn't understand. The diagnosis for Reiter's is "eliminate all other possibilities". It's been known about for 100 years, and that's the state of the art.

I'm not saying that EM sensitivity is what people claim it is necessarily, but there is compelling evidence that there is something happening here. The court has accepted expert advice on that.
I don't question that, but when people insist it's caused by EMF when most of the science contradicts it, a lot of people will just disregard it as silly and those who have real problems don't get help that actually works. Even worse, if people start isolating themselves in remote areas because they believe EMF is dangerous for them, they will both suffer from the isolation and they never find out what they really are sensitive to.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2015, 11:31:49 pm »

No, you are missing the point.  Anyone can post a link to their favourite PubMed study, it doesn't really prove anything. There have been many studies that have not found any correlation.

The point is that while people may not be able to detect EM emissions, in that and a few other tests they have been able to detect a change in EM emissions. So your ability to point to studies that tested the former does not disprove the latter.


 You need to do a survey of all the literature in order to draw any conclusion. That's why WHO's opinion is of value since their recommendations are typically based on a systematic literature review performed by experts in the field.

Quote
That seems a bit contradictory from the first statement, no?

Nope. The WHO recognises the condition. The UK doesn't, buy the WHO does. It says that more research is needed and that there is no scientific explanation at the moment, but it still recognises that the condition exists, even if it is psychological.

As I said, we have been here before. With CFS initially it was dismissed because there was no scientific explanation (still isn't well understood) and there is no known test that can detect it.

I actually have two such conditions. I also have Reiter's, for which there is no test and no scientific explanation. There might be one day because it is related to lupus, and is known to be some kind of autoimmune problem, but there isn't much effort going into research.

When you start really looking at this stuff you realise that there is a lot of stuff that medical science doesn't understand. The diagnosis for Reiter's is "eliminate all other possibilities". It's been known about for 100 years, and that's the state of the art.

I'm not saying that EM sensitivity is what people claim it is necessarily, but there is compelling evidence that there is something happening here. The court has accepted expert advice on that.

WHO recognizes the condition in that the people clearly have *some issue* but, as all current studies have conclusively shown, it's not caused by RF.

Like you said, it could be exposure to industrial cleaning products or just plain psychosomatic (which doesn't mean they're crazy, per say). Either way, if you know anything about RF you'd know that a cell phone or WiFi router doesn't even remotely have the power to affect human tissue (beyond *possibly* heating a small area a fraction of a degree, which is negligible).

My money is on psychosomatic issues. The brain is a powerful thing; there's a story from WW2 where a GI had been shot, but the field hospital was out of morphine, so the nurse injected him with saline and his pain went away. So, his brain thought it was getting morphine and either started ignoring the pain signals, or more likely dumped a load of endorphins (which is essentially endogenous morphine) and that stopped his pain.

So, if someone sees a cell phone and thinks that will cause them to feel ill, their brain will actually make them feel ill, which reinforces the whole notion. They basically get stuck in a feedback loop, ironically not unlike a PLL.


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Online Zero999

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2015, 11:45:05 pm »
Either way, if you know anything about RF you'd know that a cell phone or WiFi router doesn't even remotely have the power to affect human tissue (beyond *possibly* heating a small area a fraction of a degree, which is negligible).
I agree. This is why it's nearly impossible for RF energy of this kind of strength to be causing any health problems: there's just no mechanism. The radiation from a phone is no different to the IR from a heat lamp or fire, it just penetrates deeper into the body. In fact a fire will emit some energy in the microwave region but it will be dwarfed by the massive output in the IR part of the spectrum.
 

Offline Chris C

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2015, 12:43:12 am »
My money is on psychosomatic issues. The brain is a powerful thing; there's a story from WW2 where a GI had been shot, but the field hospital was out of morphine, so the nurse injected him with saline and his pain went away. So, his brain thought it was getting morphine and either started ignoring the pain signals, or more likely dumped a load of endorphins (which is essentially endogenous morphine) and that stopped his pain.

Reading about Marine (the woman on disability), I see she's tried lots of things to reduce her RF exposure.  Many of which helped, but only briefly.  She consistently concludes that this is because her sensitivity worsened.  And does not even once suggest the possibility that she may have been experiencing the placebo effect, or that by coincidence, she was just having a good week.

She also reports a doctor found that her thalamus was receiving 35% of the oxygen that it should.  This is the region of the brain responsible for sensory and motor signals, consciousness, alertness, and sleep.  In short, all the things she's having problems with.  To her, this verification that RF is destroying her brain.  To me, this is verification she's unable to distinguish between cause and effect.

Just plain bad science.  And it's not hard to find a doctor or scientist who will validate a faulty conclusion.  It's just a matter of trying enough of them.

As I mentioned, my mother is a paranoid schizophenic.  One characteristic of that is that you always blame something external for whatever problems you're having.  I didn't get along with her as a child, as she was already quite crazy and abusive (though nothing compared to now).  But true to her condition, she decided I must be the crazy one.  Took me to a psychologist, a good one, who at least helped heal some of my trauma.  But that didn't solve the real issue, in fact it made less willing to tolerate her abuse, so she switched me to another psychologist.  Then another, and another, in rapid succession.  Until she found one that after 30 minutes of speaking with me, told her that I was hopelessly crazy, and would "surely be dead or in jail by age 18".  That was what she wanted to hear, so no more psychologists.

She was satisfied for a while, until she saw a news report on teenage drug abuse, and decided I must be on drugs.  Took me to a doctor for blood tests, no drugs.  Immediately took me to another, same result.  And another.  And so on, until the last said "we can't detect any drugs, but your son's arm is covered in track marks, so we're sure he must be using them".  Of course it was covered with track marks - from constant drug testing.  But again, that was what she wanted to hear.

Now if I'd just told you that "doctors and scientists believe that I am insane, and had a raging teenage drug problem", without giving you the context, you might have believed it.

Similarly, take it out of context that the WHO recognizes EHS, and you might believe they think RF is responsible for it.  Yet, from their page on it:

"Treatment of affected individuals should focus on the health symptoms and the clinical picture, and not on the person's perceived need for reducing or eliminating EMF in the workplace or home. This requires:

* a medical evaluation to identify and treat any specific conditions that may be responsible for the symptoms,
* a psychological evaluation to identify alternative psychiatric/psychological conditions that may be responsible for the symptoms,
* an assessment of the workplace and home for factors that might contribute to the presented symptoms. These could include indoor air pollution, excessive noise, poor lighting (flickering light) or ergonomic factors. A reduction of stress and other improvements in the work situation might be appropriate."


What is notably absent here?  Any recommendation to reduce RF exposure.  They do not recognize RF as even a potential cause of EHS.
 

Offline timofonic

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2015, 03:52:20 am »
Let's give tinfoil hats to everyone!

This topic is too complex to understand and if often plagued of misinformations. Some animals are able to perceive some RF frequencies, but we aren't sure about many things about our damn fucking complex and twisted biology.

Despite this can be an issue, it's marginal compared to good nutrition, mental health and bad education. Many of these people have mental illness and associate it with this or whatever shit their minds build, and it can happen to very intelligent people too. Mental health sucks.

http://gizmodo.com/a-lot-of-published-psychology-results-are-bullshit-1727228060

Do you want to see pseudoscience shit that can make Batteriser futuristic magical-like science fiction technology? Look at it.

* I have some hope in a future serious approach of neuroscience, with advanced brain analysis, tests and even manipulate it in different ways to regulate or improve it.
* There's some research in neurogenesis too, that might be quite interesting.

And this is said from a guy with ADHD, one of the most studied disorders. Drugs help, but they have no fucking clue of making adult therapy and are unable to empathize, but trowing guilty to me all time. What the fuck!

They are often even more insane than me in extreme ways (I know many of them) but not having my fucking disorder makes them very hard to understand it. You would be surprised how rude can they be.

My once private tutor helped me a lot more than all these scammers in most of my shitty life, but I have zero money right now. Anyone want to adopt me and teach me electronics? I'll clean your home or whatever :D

Back to electrons, ladies and gentlemen. We would need massive cognitive augmentations to understand just a fraction of this shit.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 06:37:07 am by Circuiteromalaguito »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2015, 07:05:10 am »


Say what?

It's in his mind only. In the hospital scene the doctor turned on the electric switch but he didn't notice it.
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2015, 07:19:12 am »


Say what?

It's in his mind only. In the hospital scene the doctor turned on the electric switch but he didn't notice it.
I was actually just thinking about that, and that's how they should handle people who truly think they are sensitive to EMF.  Get them in a room that is completely free from any EMFs, perhaps something in a steel container or something.  Use various instruments from advanced things to simple things like radio to show to the person that there is no EMF but also reassure the doctors/scientists in that room that there is indeed no EMF so it can act as a baseline for the experiment.  Then start to ramp up various sources of EMF without the person's knowledge while monitoring them and asking if they feel anything.

Basically if they can scientifically debunk that the person is actually sensitive to EMF then they should not get any kind of disability.  If anything it would prove as a good research experiment just in case somehow this is really a real thing that we just don't know about.   

Really I think this approach should be done for ANY condition that someone goes on disability for.   Make sure people arn't just trying to milk the system.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2015, 07:52:09 am »
Wasn't there a story a while ago about a town where lots of people started complaining of symptoms when a new antenna tower was built, but it later transpired that it wasn't even turned on at the time?

It's not like it would be hard to test this - there are plenty of screened EMC test chambers around the world, so would not be unreasonable to require anyone claiming benefits to be tested.
Though I'm sure some people would claim they got symptoms from proximity to spiky foam absorbers...
 
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Online coppice

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2015, 07:59:08 am »
Wasn't there a story a while ago about a town where lots of people started complaining of symptoms when a new antenna tower was built, but it later transpired that it wasn't even turned on at the time?
Its possible the tower and the sickness were related. Maybe the construction people let something nasty get in the public water supply? The real downside of people jumping to spurious conclusions is it stops them looking for real issues.
It's not like it would be hard to test this - there are plenty of screened EMC test chambers around the world, so would not be unreasonable to require anyone claiming benefits to be tested.
Though I'm sure some people would claim they got symptoms from proximity to spiky foam absorbers...
That's easy. Just compare their performance in a chamber with the spike kind of absorber and a chamber with the flat ferrite plate kind. :)
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2015, 11:13:16 am »
Mojo, you are a complete spacker.  Your determination to rally against pretty much everything makes you look somewhat idiotic. Electro hypersensitivity is complete bollocks, your one favourite study (with a sample size of one) proves nothing.

The woman in the article clears has mental health issues, but it's nothing to do with Big Electro beaming nasty Frequencies into her head...
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2015, 12:38:25 pm »
Mojo, you are a complete spacker.  Your determination to rally against pretty much everything makes you look somewhat idiotic. Electro hypersensitivity is complete bollocks, your one favourite study (with a sample size of one) proves nothing.

The woman in the article clears has mental health issues, but it's nothing to do with Big Electro beaming nasty Frequencies into her head...
Indeed, I don't think anyone here has said that she doesn't have health problems and that she doesn't need the money, just that it's obviously not caused by non-ionising EM radiation.
 

Offline SL4P

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2015, 01:09:20 pm »
...and you guys thought my footer-signature was silly.
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2015, 04:08:51 pm »
Wasn't there a story a while ago about a town where lots of people started complaining of symptoms when a new antenna tower was built, but it later transpired that it wasn't even turned on at the time?
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/wireless/11099-massive-revelation-in-iburst-tower-battle.html
Quote
It's not like it would be hard to test this - there are plenty of screened EMC test chambers around the world, so would not be unreasonable to require anyone claiming benefits to be tested.
Though I'm sure some people would claim they got symptoms from proximity to spiky foam absorbers...
The reluctance of them to be tested makes it all the more difficult to, however.

That's exactly what they did in the study I linked to earlier. They found that while the test subject couldn't tell if there was an artificial EMF field or not, they could tell when it was turned on or off.
I can tell when equipment with a CRT is turned on/off, because I can hear the high frequencies. Ditto for my router and computer (coil whine), and I can hear the magnetron in the microwave too. That doesn't mean I'm sensing the EMF from it. I can also hear the sound a dental x-ray machine makes when it fires, but that doesn't mean I'm sensing the burst of (ionising!) radiation.

Perhaps that person just has unusually sensitive hearing and is triggering on something else, maybe something as simple as the click of a relay or the researcher actuating a switch?

 

Offline macboy

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2015, 04:20:10 pm »
Mojo, you are a complete spacker.  Your determination to rally against pretty much everything makes you look somewhat idiotic. Electro hypersensitivity is complete bollocks, your one favourite study (with a sample size of one) proves nothing.

The woman in the article clears has mental health issues, but it's nothing to do with Big Electro beaming nasty Frequencies into her head...
Mojo-chan is EEVBlog forum's biggest troll. Why do you guys even give him the satisfaction of responding to his lunatic rantings?
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2015, 07:17:24 pm »
I work in the water industry. Some companies still have guys going out with divining rods. I'd complete bunk, there is plenty of convincing evidence to support that. I have no trouble accepting that.

Why do you have so much trouble accepting that we don't fully understand something?

Water industry ... (Homeopathy?  >:D ) ... Divining ... One more to add to TheElectricChicken on the Ignore List

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Offline SL4P

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2015, 11:05:42 pm »
Ommm........
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2015, 11:13:13 pm »
Mojo, you are a complete spacker.  Your determination to rally against pretty much everything makes you look somewhat idiotic. Electro hypersensitivity is complete bollocks, your one favourite study (with a sample size of one) proves nothing.

Delta, you are another one who lives by the manta "when you can't win, ad-hominem".
You're very good at that, like the time when you didn't like someone's video, you referred to them as dumb fucks and morons.

These dumb fucks didn't even read the proposal or understand it before making their stupid video. Morons.

Quote
I work in the water industry. Some companies still have guys going out with divining rods. I'd complete bunk, there is plenty of convincing evidence to support that. I have no trouble accepting that.

Why do you have so much trouble accepting that we don't fully understand something?
If I employed someone and they starting doing that kind of thing, they'd be out of the door before their feet could touch the ground! People don't accept that kind of quackery because there's absolutely no scientific evidence to support it.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2015, 12:34:04 am »
I work in the water industry. Some companies still have guys going out with divining rods. I'd complete bunk, there is plenty of convincing evidence to support that. I have no trouble accepting that.

Why do you have so much trouble accepting that we don't fully understand something?
If I employed someone and they starting doing that kind of thing, they'd be out of the door before their feet could touch the ground! People don't accept that kind of quackery because there's absolutely no scientific evidence to support it.
Finding water is a skill indeed, but a person skilled in the art could easily propagate the myth by continuing to use such a (likely worthless) device while applying other senses such as visual observation to find water.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2015, 12:50:27 am »
Delta, you are another one who lives by the manta "when you can't win, ad-hominem".

Yet another ad-hominem.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2015, 12:54:18 am »
I have been able to use metal divining rods since I was in my pre-teens.
I can find anything I know the composition of, but it works best with metal objects.

If you will pass this test you will win $1M.

http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

Here are a few Australians that tried their luck:

Drain the swamp.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2015, 12:55:13 am »
Dowsing has also been shown to not work in several double blind trials. It has nothing to do with belief, only what can be reproducibly shown to work or not. Dowsing doesn't work when you test it, it's as simple as that. Only thing you have to believe in is the scientific method.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 12:56:55 am by apis »
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2015, 01:08:42 am »
I have been able to use metal divining rods since I was in my pre-teens.
I can find anything I know the composition of, but it works best with metal objects.

If you will pass this test you will win $1M.

http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

Here are a few Australians that tried their luck:


He has never honored the pledge.
The guy is as fake as the day is long.

keep in mind that someone who calls themselves a debunker has already made up their mind.
A closed mind is a waste.
Sue AF6LJ
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Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2015, 01:19:31 am »
He has never honored the pledge.

Any reference?

BTW, Netflix has this documentary about his personal life, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2246565/ . It touches magic vs science, same sex marriage and illegal immigration.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2015, 01:33:30 am »
He has never honored the pledge.
The guy is as fake as the day is long.

keep in mind that someone who calls themselves a debunker has already made up their mind.
A closed mind is a waste.
Do you even know who Randi is? "honored" the pledge? It has been out there for decades just asking for someone to snap it up, but for some reason nobody can when it comes to independent double blind tests, even with a low probability allowed on the preliminary. Also strange is how the hucksters are always too busy or too important, or winning a million is beneath them or their spirit guides would not allow them to profit like that (but $10/min phone lines are ok) and they could always donate it to the starving children...

An "open" mind is a waste - fill that dustbin with garbage and it is all equally valid to the "open" mind. In reality it is the most closed mind ever - because it disregards critical thinking.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2015, 07:10:00 am »

I have been able to use metal divining rods since I was in my pre-teens.
I can find anything I know the composition of, but it works best with metal objects.

If you will pass this test you will win $1M.

http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

Here are a few Australians that tried their luck:


He has never honored the pledge.
The guy is as fake as the day is long.

keep in mind that someone who calls themselves a debunker has already made up their mind.
A closed mind is a waste.

The money is set up in an independent trust. James Randi has no direct control over the money; if anyone can prove dousing, ESP, divining, the existence of ghosts, etc. under double blind test conditions, then they will be given the money. Plain and simple.

In 30+ years no one has been able to do it. So if you really can find hidden metallic objects with your "third eye" then you should really go and get that prize money.

Put up or shut up.


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Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2015, 10:07:12 am »
BTW, Netflix has this documentary about his personal life, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2246565/ . It touches magic vs science, same sex marriage and illegal immigration.
Thanks, found it at a certain privateers cove. 3.5Gb fast download  :-+
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2015, 12:59:58 pm »
Yet another ad-hominem.

You don't actually know what an ad-hominem is, do you?

Yet another ad-hominem.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2015, 02:04:37 pm »

I have been able to use metal divining rods since I was in my pre-teens.
I can find anything I know the composition of, but it works best with metal objects.

If you will pass this test you will win $1M.

http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

Here are a few Australians that tried their luck:


He has never honored the pledge.
The guy is as fake as the day is long.

keep in mind that someone who calls themselves a debunker has already made up their mind.
A closed mind is a waste.

The money is set up in an independent trust. James Randi has no direct control over the money; if anyone can prove dousing, ESP, divining, the existence of ghosts, etc. under double blind test conditions, then they will be given the money. Plain and simple.

In 30+ years no one has been able to do it. So if you really can find hidden metallic objects with your "third eye" then you should really go and get that prize money.

Put up or shut up.


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James Randy was exposed to be a fraud back in the mid 90s.
I usually don't even waste my time on posts like this but be warned the man is a fraud.
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Online coppice

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2015, 02:12:24 pm »
James Randy was exposed to be a fraud back in the mid 90s.
I usually don't even waste my time on posts like this but be warned the man is a fraud.
Interesting. Can you point the rest of us to this exposure, as it doesn't seem to be easy to find on the web?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 02:15:24 pm by coppice »
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2015, 02:47:08 pm »
James Randy was exposed to be a fraud back in the mid 90s.
I usually don't even waste my time on posts like this but be warned the man is a fraud.
That's a broad claim. A fraud in what sense and do you have sources (links will do) to back up the claim?
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2015, 03:13:32 pm »
James Randy was exposed to be a fraud back in the mid 90s.
I usually don't even waste my time on posts like this but be warned the man is a fraud.
That's a broad claim. A fraud in what sense and do you have sources (links will do) to back up the claim?
http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge
http://skepdic.com/randi.html
Changing the rules a fraud plain and simple.

The remote viewers (the trained ones that worked for the US Army in the last part of the last century made this necessary.

Take it for what it is worth.
Sue AF6LJ
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Online coppice

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2015, 03:37:44 pm »
James Randy was exposed to be a fraud back in the mid 90s.
I usually don't even waste my time on posts like this but be warned the man is a fraud.
That's a broad claim. A fraud in what sense and do you have sources (links will do) to back up the claim?
http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge
Surely you are not going to use that site as a credible reference?
http://skepdic.com/randi.html
Changing the rules a fraud plain and simple.
That site is fine, but it doesn't seem to call Randi's conduct into question. There was a change of rules, but only for new applicants. The rules seem perfectly reasonable. How does this call his integrity into doubt?
The remote viewers (the trained ones that worked for the US Army in the last part of the last century made this necessary.
Can you point to credible support for the existence of these remote viewers?
Take it for what it is worth.
Do you have any credible complaints about Randi's conduct?
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2015, 03:58:00 pm »
James Randy was exposed to be a fraud back in the mid 90s.
I usually don't even waste my time on posts like this but be warned the man is a fraud.
That's a broad claim. A fraud in what sense and do you have sources (links will do) to back up the claim?
http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge
Surely you are not going to use that site as a credible reference?
http://skepdic.com/randi.html
Changing the rules a fraud plain and simple.
That site is fine, but it doesn't seem to call Randi's conduct into question. There was a change of rules, but only for new applicants. The rules seem perfectly reasonable. How does this call his integrity into doubt?
The remote viewers (the trained ones that worked for the US Army in the last part of the last century made this necessary.
Can you point to credible support for the existence of these remote viewers?
Take it for what it is worth.
Do you have any credible complaints about Randi's conduct?

If you don't believe that is fine, I am not here to convince anyone.
I tend to be skeptical myself, but remember the definition of the word Skeptic, not to be confused with a Debunker who is already biased to disbelief.

The problem with Randi and his controlled conditions; he may be shielding the mechnisms that allow some of these "paranormal" abilities to work. Think of it this way; someone who doesn't believe in radio could make the same offer as Randi did. They could set up the "controlled conditions in a Faraday cage, under those controlled conditions radio wouldn't work.

There are a whole community of debunkers who say we never sent man to the Moon and they have volumes of proof.

Science is a tool we use to explain things, events and processes in the world around us.
It has its limitations, and it should, to keep a boundary between fact and fantasy; there is a third realm however that which Science cannot explain due to its limitations. That which falls in that realm is not fantasy until proven to be once and for all.

I can divine but I have no idea how it works.

Sue AF6LJ
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Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2015, 05:40:44 pm »
They could set up the "controlled conditions in a Faraday cage, under those controlled conditions radio wouldn't work.

With the Randi challenge, the condition of the tests are agreed upon with the person that makes the claim. See the Australian divining video for example.

I am sure that Randi will be more than thrilled to see a repeatable  evidence of 'super natural' but it's important to filter out the false ones.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2015, 06:31:59 pm »
James Randy was exposed to be a fraud back in the mid 90s.
I usually don't even waste my time on posts like this but be warned the man is a fraud.
That's a broad claim. A fraud in what sense and do you have sources (links will do) to back up the claim?
http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge
http://skepdic.com/randi.html
Changing the rules a fraud plain and simple.

The remote viewers (the trained ones that worked for the US Army in the last part of the last century made this necessary.

Take it for what it is worth.
Randi and the foundation have been pretty transparent about what it takes to get the $1,000,000 I don't see fraud here.

If someone had "passed the test" but not been paid I'm sure they would not have hesitated to make it widely known. Where is the sucessful claimant?

Quote
The problem with Randi and his controlled conditions; he may be shielding the mechnisms that allow some of these "paranormal" abilities to work. Think of it this way; someone who doesn't believe in radio could make the same offer as Randi did. They could set up the "controlled conditions in a Faraday cage, under those controlled conditions radio wouldn't work.
The test conditions are mutually agreed so anyone who was concerned can stipulate checks by 3rd parties, probably  a neutral venue so as to prevent Randi doing this.

Of course he does regularly interfere with the mechanisms which are used to make it appear that people have psychic powers when debunking them. He thwarted Geller just by
insisting that Geller and his team have no access to the spoon he was supposed to bend before a show. Mysteriously Geller's powers failed him that night.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2015, 08:34:20 pm »
That's a broad claim. A fraud in what sense and do you have sources (links will do) to back up the claim?
Oh come on. There's loads of authority figures to appeal to as sources like Uri Geller, Sylvia Browne, David Icke, Monster Cables, the list goes on... plenty of anecdote out there.
Quote
Randi and the foundation have been pretty transparent about what it takes to get the $1,000,000 I don't see fraud here.

If someone had "passed the test" but not been paid I'm sure they would not have hesitated to make it widely known. Where is the sucessful claimant?
EXACTLY! The JREF "Foundation" are in cahoots with the Zionists and Goldenzbergs joo-ish international crime syndicate and simply order a hit. They can do this using top secret CIA remote viewing techniques that they stole from psychics in their top secret psi-labs torture chambers at Guantanomo Bay (SC 1005 Box 25, FPO AE 09593). Crude but effective way to shut down the true psychics, homeopaths, and people who have proven it is bad luck to walk under a ladder or past a black cat.
Quote
The test conditions are mutually agreed so anyone who was concerned can stipulate checks by 3rd parties, probably  a neutral venue so as to prevent Randi doing this.

Of course he does regularly interfere with the mechanisms which are used to make it appear that people have psychic powers when debunking them. He thwarted Geller just by
insisting that Geller and his team have no access to the spoon he was supposed to bend before a show. Mysteriously Geller's powers failed him that night.
Johnny Carson smoked like a chimney. The smoke got into Uri's delicate lungs and eyes. Tell me, do you like to work amongst smokers? It's rightfully banned as it makes golden children nauseous and puts us off our stroke. Uri was in a workplace that evening, and Randi & Carson should get the death sentance for mistreating him like that. He should get onto his union.

Anyway Uri is not a psychic any more, he is a "mystifier". So that makes it all right. ok?  :palm:
 

Online McBryce

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2015, 08:52:42 pm »
The rule changes aren't a fraud. They obviously just want to reduce the noise floor. They're probably over-run by quacks hoping to get a million. You have to filter the masses somehow and also means that you can concentrate on those who are misleading the biggest audience.

McBryce.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2015, 09:07:12 pm »
The rule changes aren't a fraud. They obviously just want to reduce the noise floor. They're probably over-run by quacks hoping to get a million. You have to filter the masses somehow and also means that you can concentrate on those who are misleading the biggest audience.

McBryce.
What? Are you telling me that something as human as age is catching up with the "great randi"? That he is nearly 90 years old, wears his trousers up to his chest, and doesn't have the time or health to deal with all the special snowflakes who have encountered UFO's or baby jeezus?

Not so great after all are you Randy? hehehe. See what I did there? "randy" like I can insinuate a guy with a 25+ year live-in partnership with another guy is a dirty perv who only thinks of his fagcock. Hehehe, what an utter gutter dwelling scumbucket I am, hehehe... "Randy" hahahaha  :-DD I'm so clever  :palm: /s
 

Online McBryce

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2015, 09:14:47 pm »
Eh... no. None of that. I was merely suggesting that possibly there are too many quacks pestering him for the million.

McBryce.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2015, 09:34:11 pm »

If you don't believe that is fine, I am not here to convince anyone.
I tend to be skeptical myself...

...snip...

I can divine but I have no idea how it works.

Yeah, no, you're not a skeptic if you believe in divining. That makes you a fruitcake.


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Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2015, 09:44:47 pm »

If you don't believe that is fine, I am not here to convince anyone.
I tend to be skeptical myself...

...snip...

I can divine but I have no idea how it works.

Yeah, no, you're not a skeptic if you believe in divining. That makes you a fruitcake.


Sent from my Tablet
The only fruitcake here is you.
But hay who is keeping score.
Now run along and play, the adults want to talk.
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2015, 10:42:39 pm »
Yeah, no, you're not a skeptic if you believe in divining. That makes you a fruitcake.
So wrong! It could also mean the make believe mind of a 7 year old child. I still remember making my own divining rods out of old coat hangers when I saw them on Tomorrows World or something like that back in the 70's. You know what? They bloody well worked! When I placed them over my mums kitchen sink they crossed and when I moved away they went straight again. All the adults were amazed at my divining ability.

I wasn't convinced. There were some puddles in the back garden that only sometimes worked. I didn't like the fact the skin on my fingers was acting as a friction barrier - I wanted precision. I think I used some split pencils with the leads taken out or something to stop my grippiness interfering with the natural divination science. Wow! They worked so much better! Every puddle they would cross, the sink, everywhere, and uncross on dry land.

I was convinced, but still something was bugging me. I knew even then that the slightest tiniest wrist movement could easily move those rods. I came to the conclusion that it was bunk. I think I became an atheist around the same time when my religious school teachers told me that god is watching me all the time... like even when I go for a pee pee... mmmkay  :wtf:
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2015, 11:03:41 pm »
If divining worked as well as it did, why doesn't the  oil industry hire dowsers?
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2015, 11:18:47 pm »
If divining worked as well as it did, why doesn't the  oil industry hire dowsers?
But they do - didn't you watch Uri Geller claim he has no need of the psychic scam market anymore as he is in hot demand by all the oil gas and mineral mining companies?

It's just like all those Psychics that are constantly called on by the FBI, at least if you watch Fox News and Oprah. Though they only seem to provide "retired" Police & FBI guys to back up the claims, and they are fantasists too.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2015, 11:29:56 pm »
But they do - didn't you watch Uri Geller claim he has no need of the psychic scam market anymore as he is in hot demand by all the oil gas and mineral mining companies?

It's just like all those Psychics that are constantly called on by the FBI, at least if you watch Fox News and Oprah. Though they only seem to provide "retired" Police & FBI guys to back up the claims, and they are fantasists too.

I have several friends who work in the oil and gas industry. I'll have to ask them next time I see them but I'm pretty sure they didn't do years of geology and earth studies (and be compensated well to boot) just to be outdone by some guy with a bent coat hanger. Exploration is one of the biggest expenditures that a oil/gas company makes, the industry spends billions every year looking for new fields and investing in sophisticated technology and the brightest minds to drive the equipment.

Show me an example of an oil/gas company claiming to use dowsing or other supernatural effects, not just someone claiming to work for the industry. After all, Uri has been caught lying before, so it wouldn't surprise me if he were bullshitting.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 11:31:53 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #81 on: September 02, 2015, 12:52:22 am »
Those wily arabs at ENOC forced my Dragon Oil shares from out of my ISA. Yeah, 400% profit but that's chicken feed. It seems obvious to me they got in cahoots with Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne from beyond the grave before the takeover. Unless you know something else?  :-DD
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2015, 03:25:53 am »
If divining worked as well as it did, why doesn't the  oil industry hire dowsers?

Maybe 2.5 miles is too far down, explosives and seismic sensors seem to work just fine.
Sue AF6LJ
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Online retrolefty

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2015, 03:31:30 am »
If divining worked as well as it did, why doesn't the  oil industry hire dowsers?

Maybe 2.5 miles is too far down, explosives and seismic sensors seem to work just fine.

 The biggest advance in oil exploration sense the 80s has been in the 3D analysis derived from seismic surveys. The use of computer tech had a huge effect later followed by horizontal drilling tech. It really is a high tech business.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2015, 08:34:04 am »


If you don't believe that is fine, I am not here to convince anyone.
I tend to be skeptical myself...

...snip...

I can divine but I have no idea how it works.

Yeah, no, you're not a skeptic if you believe in divining. That makes you a fruitcake.


Sent from my Tablet
The only fruitcake here is you.
But hay who is keeping score.
Now run along and play, the adults want to talk.

I'm keeping score. So far in this thread you've 1) Not only claimed diving is legit, but that you can do it. 2) Despite #1 said you're a skeptic. 3) Claimed anyone who debunks woo-woo pseudoscience is actually closed minded and not a skeptic. 3) Claimed James Randi is a fraud.


If you can't see how reason #1 by itself makes you a fruitcake, then maybe you're right.  I apologize, you're not a fruitcake.

You're batshit fucking crazy.


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Offline TopLoser

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2015, 09:04:34 am »
You're batshit fucking crazy.

More tea Vicar?
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2015, 12:48:00 pm »


If you don't believe that is fine, I am not here to convince anyone.
I tend to be skeptical myself...

...snip...

I can divine but I have no idea how it works.

Yeah, no, you're not a skeptic if you believe in divining. That makes you a fruitcake.


Sent from my Tablet
The only fruitcake here is you.
But hay who is keeping score.
Now run along and play, the adults want to talk.

I'm keeping score. So far in this thread you've 1) Not only claimed diving is legit, but that you can do it. 2) Despite #1 said you're a skeptic. 3) Claimed anyone who debunks woo-woo pseudoscience is actually closed minded and not a skeptic. 3) Claimed James Randi is a fraud.


If you can't see how reason #1 by itself makes you a fruitcake, then maybe you're right.  I apologize, you're not a fruitcake.

You're batshit fucking crazy.


Sent from my Tablet
I am sorry you get so disturbed over something that cannot comply with a sixth grade explanation. The fact this upsets you so much says volumes about your ability to cope with the unexplained.

I hope you get help soon.
Sue AF6LJ
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2015, 01:56:59 pm »
You're batshit fucking crazy.

More tea Vicar?

This made me spew coffee.

 :-DD
Some are easily entertained at others who due to ether breeding or education must resort to profanity to express themselves.

But....
Guilty as charged I find it entertaining when someone appears to not have sufficient vocabulary and must resort to profanity in order to verbalize what is going through their mind.  :)

Sue AF6LJ
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Offline Sionyn

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2015, 05:40:22 pm »
speaking of dowsers dawkins interviewed one for his enemies of reason program, when he failed to come with the goods he told dawkins his dowsing failed was beacuse GOD was playing jokes on him.

eecs guy
 

Offline Sionyn

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2015, 05:56:27 pm »
another thought on EMF sensitivity:
considering the amount electrical devices would we see a huge spike in numbers if this EMF sensitivity was a thing,

the fact is we don't.
For it to work you need some physics effect which would cause some chemistry to happen which then would intern cause biological effect, but we know this can't happen electromagnetic fields have been studied and studied and no effects at these safe levels (non ionizing) has ever been shown.

i cant even find any real studies that shows this as a thing beyond some conspiracy theorists. The WHO say its characterized by a variety of non-specific symptoms that differ from individual to individual, dosent that amount to just random chance  since there is no correlation between the cases.
eecs guy
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2015, 06:41:00 pm »
You know birds have magnetic proteins in the retina, which they use to navigate with. There might be one or two people with a genetic defect that allows them to have the same protein, so they might have some ability to sense magnetic field.  Thus you might have one in a million who can sense magnetic slow changing fields, though you do need a large field, and they would also be disorientated by cars, speakers, fridge doors, passing ships, bridges, railways, large buildings and anything with large ferrous concentrations.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2015, 08:09:23 pm »

You're batshit fucking crazy.

More tea Vicar?

This made me spew coffee.

 :-DD
Some are easily entertained at others who due to ether breeding or education must resort to profanity to express themselves.

But....
Guilty as charged I find it entertaining when someone appears to not have sufficient vocabulary and must resort to profanity in order to verbalize what is going through their mind.  :)

Ah, the old "using naughty words makes you ignorant" fallacy. It's called a colloquialism, bitch. ;D

Just because I *choose* not to pepper every sentence with protean words isn't due to a lack of vernacular versatility on my part. In fact, it makes *you* seem closed minded; don't judge a book by it's cover.

Besides, 'fuck' is the most versatile word in the English language. It's a verb, noun, adjective, adverb, pronoun, compound and in some cases can take the place of entire sentences and even punctuation.


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Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2015, 08:17:39 pm »
You know birds have magnetic proteins in the retina, which they use to navigate with. There might be one or two people with a genetic defect that allows them to have the same protein, so they might have some ability to sense magnetic field.  Thus you might have one in a million who can sense magnetic slow changing fields, though you do need a large field, and they would also be disorientated by cars, speakers, fridge doors, passing ships, bridges, railways, large buildings and anything with large ferrous concentrations.
I always wondered how ohm-ing pigeons worked.  ;)
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2015, 10:11:02 pm »

You're batshit fucking crazy.

More tea Vicar?

This made me spew coffee.

 :-DD
Some are easily entertained at others who due to ether breeding or education must resort to profanity to express themselves.

But....
Guilty as charged I find it entertaining when someone appears to not have sufficient vocabulary and must resort to profanity in order to verbalize what is going through their mind.  :)

Ah, the old "using naughty words makes you ignorant" fallacy. It's called a colloquialism, bitch. ;D

Just because I *choose* not to pepper every sentence with protean words isn't due to a lack of vernacular versatility on my part. In fact, it makes *you* seem closed minded; don't judge a book by it's cover.

Besides, 'fuck' is the most versatile word in the English language. It's a verb, noun, adjective, adverb, pronoun, compound and in some cases can take the place of entire sentences and even punctuation.


Sent from my Tablet
I agree that judging a book by it's cover is not wise and closed minded but when the cover is covered with Shit We know what that book has been laying in.
Good Day sir. 
Sue AF6LJ
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Offline zapta

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2015, 11:22:01 pm »
Some are easily entertained at others who due to ether breeding or education must resort to profanity to express themselves.

You are #$%@#$& right!
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2015, 11:25:29 pm »
“The sort of twee person who thinks swearing is in any way a sign of a lack of education or a lack of verbal interest is just a fucking lunatic.”

- Stephen Fry
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Woman Gets €800/month For EMF 'Disability'
« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2015, 11:47:43 pm »
Congrats AF6LJ and Timb on getting the thread locked.
 


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