Author Topic: Workbench electrical safety advice  (Read 7260 times)

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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2022, 08:51:17 pm »
And daisy chaining outlets isn't a very good idea because you create a connection at every point

This is how nearly every lighting and socket circuit throughout the world is wired. Hell, this is how every street light and house is wired under or over the road. You're overthinking things.

I think he means you're adding pluggable connections rather than fixed wiring connections. They have a slightly higher contact resistance, and under certain conditions are more prone to unwanted behaviours such as arcing.
Ideally you shouldn't have more than one pluggable connection in series (no I don't stick to this either but it's a calculated risk).
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Online nctnico

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2022, 09:49:05 pm »
And daisy chaining outlets isn't a very good idea because you create a connection at every point

This is how nearly every lighting and socket circuit throughout the world is wired. Hell, this is how every street light and house is wired under or over the road. You're overthinking things.
You are misunderstanding. Just look at a typical outlet: you can daisy chain these but the connection isn't ideal. It is more for convenience to hook up 2 to 3 outlets from the same 'feed' but not more. If you look at proper house wiring, you'll see that the wires are connected as a bus with the wires to a socket being spliced off instead of using the socket to splice the wires. At least that is how my house is wired...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 09:51:36 pm by nctnico »
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2022, 10:00:25 pm »
Quote
Just look at a typical outlet: you can daisy chain these but the connection isn't ideal.
thats wot you get for using mickey mouse outlets,the far superior britsh socket outlet is designed to easily accept 2 cables,even 3 and at a push 4.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2022, 10:01:44 pm »
And daisy chaining outlets isn't a very good idea because you create a connection at every point

This is how nearly every lighting and socket circuit throughout the world is wired. Hell, this is how every street light and house is wired under or over the road. You're overthinking things.
You are misunderstanding. Just look at a typical outlet: you can daisy chain these but the connection isn't ideal. It is more for convenience to hook up 2 to 3 outlets from the same 'feed' but not more. If you look at proper house wiring, you'll see that the wires are connected as a bus with the wires to a socket being spliced off instead of using the socket to splice the wires. At least that is how my house is wired...

.. either way you have just as many joints. Actually, more your way. If your sockets don't have reliable terminations, they're not fit for use whether they're daisy chained or not.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2022, 10:32:14 pm »
The point is that you can make a much more reliable splice compared to clamping wires under a screw or (worse) a spring loaded contact. Run a washing machine from splices that use a spring loaded connector for a couple of years and you'll find out why having good solid splices in which the wires are twisted together tightly, matter. One of my close family members has worked as an electrician all his life and for high power loads, he always used the twist-on connectors instead of the spring loaded connectors. Even the expensive ones are prone to failing.
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2022, 11:13:33 pm »
Quote
he always used the twist-on connectors instead of the spring loaded
wire nuts over wagos? sorry but totally disagree
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2022, 12:10:52 am »
Quote
he always used the twist-on connectors instead of the spring loaded
wire nuts over wagos? sorry but totally disagree
Yes. You may disagree but I have had the Wagos (original ones) fail myself as well for the wiring that goes to our washing machine. It is not just hearsay. Ofcourse you'd need to use proper / good quality wire nuts. I only use the ones from Conex and make sure to twist the wires properly. BTW, I have had some formal training for doing work on mains as part of my EE studies so I do know my way around with mains wiring.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 12:36:20 am by nctnico »
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2022, 01:37:02 am »
must admit when wagos first appeared i was sceptical and stuck with more traditional methods,however over the years my opinion has swung the full 180 and  have used a fair few without any problems.Wire nuts,thankfully ,aren't that common over here, and were,maybe still are, not permitted under our regs for fixed wiring, any time ive come across them there's either been exposed copper sticking out the bottom or they  fall off as soon as you look at them.The other  issue with wire nuts is you need to factor in a suitable enclosure for them with suitable strain relief for the cables,something wagos thought about   with there boxes.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2022, 04:47:40 am »
 

Offline Messtechniker

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2022, 10:49:54 am »
One thing I find useful when powering up possibly faulty equipment is a remotely controlled power outlet. Like this one, for example:https://www.brennenstuhl.com/de-DE/produkte/funksteckdosen/funkschalt-set-rcs-1000-n-comfort-1-handsender-2-schaltempfanger-1000w.

It allows you to switch the power off faster while maintaining focus on the equipment should anything go wrong.
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2022, 11:12:15 am »
Quote
he always used the twist-on connectors instead of the spring loaded
wire nuts over wagos? sorry but totally disagree
Yes. You may disagree but I have had the Wagos (original ones) fail myself as well for the wiring that goes to our washing machine. It is not just hearsay. Ofcourse you'd need to use proper / good quality wire nuts. I only use the ones from Conex and make sure to twist the wires properly. BTW, I have had some formal training for doing work on mains as part of my EE studies so I do know my way around with mains wiring.

I work as a project (installation) sparks for a UK metropolitan council. We do not use wire nuts, period. I would never use a Wago to make a final connection, and I wouldn't let anyone else do so on one of my sites either. The Clerk of Works would only tell you to re-do it anyway.

For a washing machine, if it had a plug-top we'd make a radial off the socket ring with a switched fuse spur, down to a single unswitched socket for it. If it had a wire ended flex, we'd do the same except use a flex outlet plate instead of a single unswitched socket. No Wagos would get anywhere near it.

We only use Wagos on a new installation if we need to common a lot of wires together, for instance in a big multi-gang light switch, you might have 10+ earths. Putting all those together in a screw terminal is a very bad idea; in order to get it tight enough to stop any from pulling out in a tug test, you run a serious risk of shearing through the conductors under the screw end itself. You can mitigate this by twisting earths together but I hate this practice as it can make alterations a ball-ache (we get to do a lot of alterations, as the designers and clients are rubbish at making their minds up).
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2022, 02:01:25 pm »
Quote
I would never use a Wago to make a final connection, and I wouldn't let anyone else do so on one of my sites either.
Not even on a light fitting,thats a final connection after all.
Quote
You can mitigate this by twisting earths together but I hate this practice as it can make alterations a ball-ache
agree about the ball ache,and not just for  alterations, its  a pita when testings,however when i done my apprenticeship back when the ink was still wet on the 15th this was the method taught to us ,the thinking behind it was ,not to save earth sleeving,but  if the connection became loose you'd still be maintaining earth continuity in the circuit
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2022, 04:17:30 pm »
Quote
I would never use a Wago to make a final connection, and I wouldn't let anyone else do so on one of my sites either.
Not even on a light fitting,thats a final connection after all.

I'd prefer not, though there are some circumstances where you might, between the fixed wiring and the terminals in the fitting, and with all of it inside the fitting. Far less likely to have any significant mechanical load within a light fitting, than in some sort of adaptable box with Wagos joining the fixed wiring to a washing machine flex. Not sure if that's exactly what nctnico meant, but it's what I think he meant, and that's the sort of thing that you see in the "Caught on Camera" section of Professional Electrician magazine.
Not to mention the fact that the electrical load would be significantly higher for a washing machine than for the average LED light fitting (we don't fit anything else nowadays). I honestly can't recall ever using Wagos on anything bigger than 1.5mm2, so basically lighting circuits, fire alarms, assistance alarms.
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2022, 04:21:11 pm »
Quote
I would never use a Wago to make a final connection, and I wouldn't let anyone else do so on one of my sites either.
Not even on a light fitting,thats a final connection after all.

I'd prefer not, though there are some circumstances where you might, between the fixed wiring and the terminals in the fitting, and with all of it inside the fitting. Far less likely to have any significant mechanical load within a light fitting, than in some sort of adaptable box with Wagos joining the fixed wiring to a washing machine flex. Not sure if that's exactly what nctnico meant, but it's what I think he meant, and that's the sort of thing that you see in the "Caught on Camera" section of Professional Electrician magazine.
Not to mention the fact that the electrical load would be significantly higher for a washing machine than for the average LED light fitting (we don't fit anything else nowadays). I honestly can't recall ever using Wagos on anything bigger than 1.5mm2, so basically lighting circuits, fire alarms, assistance alarms.


No maintenance free boxes in your work, then. Luckily you always get to rip up every floor freely or destroy the plaster?

Wagos do need to be properly supported, though - on solid core wiring if they're allowed to move independently to the cable they'll fret with vibration, which is bad.
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2022, 04:47:43 pm »
Quote
Wagos do need to be properly supported, though
indeed and thats the beauty of there boxes,also the "fixing button" to me is the work of a genius
Quote
  between the fixed wiring and the terminals in the fitting, and with all of it inside the fitting. Far less likely to have any significant mechanical load within a light fitting,
and on those annoying led fittings that come with 6 inches of flex hanging out of there sealed enclosure? or were you need to come  off an existing ring under the floor? give me  wagos anyday over the old 3/4/6 terminal landmines
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2022, 05:59:43 pm »
Quote
he always used the twist-on connectors instead of the spring loaded
wire nuts over wagos? sorry but totally disagree
Yes. You may disagree but I have had the Wagos (original ones) fail myself as well for the wiring that goes to our washing machine. It is not just hearsay. Ofcourse you'd need to use proper / good quality wire nuts. I only use the ones from Conex and make sure to twist the wires properly. BTW, I have had some formal training for doing work on mains as part of my EE studies so I do know my way around with mains wiring.

I work as a project (installation) sparks for a UK metropolitan council. We do not use wire nuts, period. I would never use a Wago to make a final connection, and I wouldn't let anyone else do so on one of my sites either. The Clerk of Works would only tell you to re-do it anyway.
If I may ask: If you are not using wire nuts and not using Wagos, what are you using? Perhaps connectors with levers?
I'll admit that making a good wire nut connection is a bit of an art. And maybe you are talking about different ones. The ones I'm familiar with have a coil made from square wire that cuts into the copper to make an extremely durable connection. When the cap is twisted off, the coil should stay in place. Kind of a reverse wire-wrap connection which is also considered to give a very durable & resillient connection.

Like this:


You'll pull the wires apart before the connection itself.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 06:06:33 pm by nctnico »
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Offline tooki

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2022, 08:23:02 am »
20 outlets in 60cm would mean they are 3cm apart.
Incorrect, because of the arrangement of standard American outlets. As I said: a 10-gang box gives you 20 outlets, because it ends up looking like the picture attached. The spacing between outlets is about 2.5” (around 6cm) apart.

(The image shows a commercial-grade power strip, made of real outlets in an enclosure.)

And daisy chaining outlets isn't a very good idea because you create a connection at every point (worse when the outlets have push-in contacts). What I have done in my lab is to have use a star like distribution.
And what’s stopping an electrician from wiring the outlets in a star topology if so desired?

Your original objection to my proposal claims that it would “need” lots of daisy-chaining, yet you then explain how your house has a bunch of outlets wired in a star topology. Do you not see a contradiction there?
 

Offline JohanH

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2022, 10:51:29 am »
There are different rules of thumb how many outlets you could or shouldn't daisy chain (or connect in a star) from a single RCD, but none of this actually matters, unless you have calculated the expected power consumption and short circuit current. By daisy chaining many outlets, in theory the short circuit current will get worse (lower) and you might end up tripping your RCD too slowly. Depending on design, outlets might be under physical stress, which could cause chained wires to get worse connection over time. YMMV
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2022, 11:17:28 am »
No maintenance free boxes in your work, then. Luckily you always get to rip up every floor freely or destroy the plaster?

Wagos do need to be properly supported, though - on solid core wiring if they're allowed to move independently to the cable they'll fret with vibration, which is bad.

We don't do domestic work, floorboards are not normally a thing in big council buildings, or schools, which are the places we do most of our jobs. Much of it is new build (extensions to schools) or bare structure refurbs.
If we put cables in walls, they are always in (proper) containment, occasionally plastic but usually metal conduit (none of that shitty capping). I dislike the dust and noise generated by chasing in, but I prefer the end result over surface containment, though obviously dado trunking is best for situations where you need a lot of outlets, ie an IT classroom, open plan office etc. I also enjoy making metal conduit up, and seeing the pride in the faces of apprentices when they make their first good piece. I hate working with plastic conduit though...

Where Wagos are used, they'll either be in a Wago box or a Wiska/similar membrane box, or a normal adaptable box, and cable entry will be using stuffing glands.




Quote
  between the fixed wiring and the terminals in the fitting, and with all of it inside the fitting. Far less likely to have any significant mechanical load within a light fitting,
and on those annoying led fittings that come with 6 inches of flex hanging out of there sealed enclosure? or were you need to come  off an existing ring under the floor? give me  wagos anyday over the old 3/4/6 terminal landmines

Agreed, jb's are the work of the devil...

We don't use any fittings like that, all ours are rewireable at the control gear, PIRs too   :-//

I guess if I had to deal with such a thing, I'd use Wagos in a Wago box, and in the past, terminal strip in a choccy box.




And what’s stopping an electrician from wiring the outlets in a star topology if so desired?

Nothing, provided it's done correctly (each radial would have to be off a fused spur), and the client is prepared to pay for the extra labour and materials involved.



There are different rules of thumb how many outlets you could or shouldn't daisy chain (or connect in a star) from a single RCD, but none of this actually matters, unless you have calculated the expected power consumption and short circuit current. By daisy chaining many outlets, in theory the short circuit current will get worse (lower) and you might end up tripping your RCD too slowly. Depending on design, outlets might be under physical stress, which could cause chained wires to get worse connection over time. YMMV

I'd be surprised to see that happen in a typical domestic environment, unless it was a very big house it's unlikely the cable would get long enough.
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2022, 12:03:55 pm »
Quote
but usually metal conduit
going off topic,but weres all the black metal conduit gone? used to be everywhere,now its a special order.
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2022, 01:18:07 pm »
Quote
but usually metal conduit
going off topic,but weres all the black metal conduit gone? used to be everywhere,now its a special order.

I'd guess it's just out of fashion with designers/architects, and so isn't made in volume any more? I've only seen it specced a couple of times in the last decade or so, and iirc it ended up not being used anyway due to lead times.
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2022, 03:50:55 pm »
Regarding this: https://youtu.be/wsJONukJlLI

That's a cobbled together mess.

Quote
but usually metal conduit
going off topic,but weres all the black metal conduit gone? used to be everywhere,now its a special order.

Probably gone out of fashion after people see what the enamel looks like after the zinc starts doing its business. Ends up looking like my brake lines, and that's not a pretty picture..
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2022, 06:00:41 pm »
Regarding this: https://youtu.be/wsJONukJlLI

That's a cobbled together mess.

I didn't watch this vid when Black Phoenix first posted it, but I wish I had. Points to the YT creator for a Great Ironic title. That is some of the worst containment work I've ever seen, and I have to deal with stoned/disinterested apprentices. If I did work like that, I'd be fired pretty damn fast.



Quote
but usually metal conduit
going off topic,but weres all the black metal conduit gone? used to be everywhere,now its a special order.

Probably gone out of fashion after people see what the enamel looks like after the zinc starts doing its business. Ends up looking like my brake lines, and that's not a pretty picture..

That reminds me of the siggy of one of the users of the Autoshite forum: "Man addicted to brake fluid claims he can stop whenever he wants".
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Offline nightfire

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2022, 06:46:03 pm »
I didn't watch this vid when Black Phoenix first posted it, but I wish I had. Points to the YT creator for a Great Ironic title. That is some of the worst containment work I've ever seen, and I have to deal with stoned/disinterested apprentices. If I did work like that, I'd be fired pretty damn fast.

For the apprentices, I can feel you- and BTW, YMMD with that quote ;-)

But honestly, I have seen worse from some professional companies that were regarded as good quality in the area where they were providing services...

I admit that I have only given it a quick glance, and spotted one or two Wago where it probably should not be in the first place, but the main setup from the approach looked reasonable. In the "Brüstungskanal" he uses pluggable outlets that are able to be daisy-chained, which is usually some expensive stuff from special manufacturers.
In the  "Abzweigdosen" (connection joint boxes) the usage of Wago ist normal in germany and in fact the preferred way of doing it- I would have to look up if german code demands connectors like this.
And because those boxes are available for inspection at anytime, it conforms to code regarding final electrical installation testing (isolation/grounding), where it says that you have to visually inspect those joints for signs of overload/trouble. In Germany usually mandated for commercial objects every 4 years. Ok, he does not show that the installation is tested after installation ;-)

In contrast, the use of wire nuts is frowned upon in germany- maybe some stuff that seems strange is due to differences in country and code?
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Workbench electrical safety advice
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2022, 06:58:19 pm »
I didn't watch this vid when Black Phoenix first posted it, but I wish I had. Points to the YT creator for a Great Ironic title. That is some of the worst containment work I've ever seen, and I have to deal with stoned/disinterested apprentices. If I did work like that, I'd be fired pretty damn fast.

For the apprentices, I can feel you- and BTW, YMMD with that quote ;-)

But honestly, I have seen worse from some professional companies that were regarded as good quality in the area where they were providing services...

I admit that I have only given it a quick glance, and spotted one or two Wago where it probably should not be in the first place, but the main setup from the approach looked reasonable. In the "Brüstungskanal" he uses pluggable outlets that are able to be daisy-chained, which is usually some expensive stuff from special manufacturers.
In the  "Abzweigdosen" (connection joint boxes) the usage of Wago ist normal in germany and in fact the preferred way of doing it- I would have to look up if german code demands connectors like this.
And because those boxes are available for inspection at anytime, it conforms to code regarding final electrical installation testing (isolation/grounding), where it says that you have to visually inspect those joints for signs of overload/trouble. In Germany usually mandated for commercial objects every 4 years. Ok, he does not show that the installation is tested after installation ;-)

In contrast, the use of wire nuts is frowned upon in germany- maybe some stuff that seems strange is due to differences in country and code?

I have been chatting in Discord about this with one of our German members, and it seems DEU regs on containment differ considerably from UK ones. I still think it looks terrible to have exposed bends!
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