Working as professional EE and having well rounded life?

[eecook]

Hey All,

I guess I am dropping these lines out of complete exhaustion. I've been working long hours for the past 2 years in Dilbert land and I've had it. This is not working out for me, I value my family, my friends, surfing, my side projects, my girlfriend. Instead of being able to live a balanced life and dedicate time to the things I care about, I'm either working 10ish hours a day + some excersise + some time with my girlfriend and finally when saturday arrives I just want to sleep all day.
Is there any type of engineering job out there that won't suck the life out of me?

Cheers.

[EEVblog]

Is there any type of engineering job out there that won't suck the life out of me?

Yes, one where you work less hours.
If you aren't being paid to work 10 hours a day, and especially if you don't enjoy it, then you are doing it wrong.
Change jobs.

[sarepairman2]

I waited a long time to get a job in a field that I was kinda doing as a hobby so that I can "hijack" projects a bit to fulfill my own curiosities.

i do feel like a salary is kind of a scam though, I have not been abused yet but I maintain poor documentation etc to protect myself against bullying..

you do gotta have eyes in the back of your fucking head at work though, sometimes I detect "fishing" for capabilities etc. gotta watch out always ....

make sure you are always accumulating something at work other then money. study the environment etc so you know how to eventually setup your own company and not be the stooge of some dilbert guy. if you start to feel bullied try to figure out what the "firing" point will be and redline the lack of productivity vs getting fired and develop your own capabilities etc using company resources

usually this means attacking some contractor that makes more money then you and stealing their business lol. this just means you took some initiative to save the company money in the long run! have contractor assault plants alpha through zeta ready even if you are happy, just incase

this thread makes me cry

[sarepairman2]

does anyone here trust their employers lol?

[marshallh]

The altenrative is to work for yourself and choose which 14 hours of the day you want to work..
Upsides: can travel anytime, can do errands during daytime hours.

[John_ITIC]

The problem is not that you are an engineer; the problem is that you are an employee. And, likely, one without overtime compensation. These days, corporations are making more money than ever because they are running much leaner than ever before. They do this by squeezing out more of the few employees they keep around after having laid off the rest. Fear of layoffs keeps the rest working hard.

In Europe, there is more work/life balance because one gets overtime compensation. At least this is the law in Sweden. France has working hours capped to 35, I believe, and have laws against dealing with work emails outside working hours. Here in the U.S. one is normally "exempt", which means fixed salary without overtime compensation.

Take a look at "rich dad poor dad" to change your reality;http://www.amazon.com/Rich-Dad-Poor-Teach-Middle/dp/1612680011

Employment is a trap because one builds no long term assets. The solution is to have assets pay for your expenses, not your earned income. With assets paying for more and more of your expenses, you can work less and less. Financing your expenses with your salary will never set you free since you will go into the "rat race" (work/spend/work/spend... going nowhere).

[Bud]

I'll tell you how i do it: i get a job that requires no overtime (or very occasional and paid overtime), requires not to be on-call, no or very little travel may be once in a few months, and-important: short commute. Just cutting your commute time gets you much additional free time and you get less tired. But if your vision of "balanced" life is 30% work, 30% family and 30% fun and hobbies, this is not how it works in life.

[IanB]

I'm working 10ish hours a day...

You have not really said why that is. Is it because you feel peer pressure to do that, or that you need to work that many hours to complete your assigned tasks, or that managers instruct you to do that? Really, you need to find out what the official expectation of your job is. What does the HR policy manual say the length of a standard working week is? In America, for example, it would typically be 40 hours a week.

What would happen if you came in at 8am, worked an 8 hour day with an hour for lunch, and went home at 5pm? Does anyone do that where you work? If not, what is the reason?

[free_electron]

Is there any type of engineering job out there that won't suck the life out of me?

Yes, one where you work less hours.
If you aren't being paid to work 10 hours a day, and especially if you don't enjoy it, then you are doing it wrong.
Change jobs.

<- this

[Stonent]

Is there any type of engineering job out there that won't suck the life out of me?

Yes, one where you work less hours.
If you aren't being paid to work 10 hours a day, and especially if you don't enjoy it, then you are doing it wrong.
Change jobs.

This might be a one-off because I've never seen it at another employer, but where I work, salaried employees are allowed to receive overtime pay of what their equivalent hourly rate would be up to a certain pay grade. *HOWEVER* you have to have approval to get that.  If you're just hanging around an extra hour to tie up some loose ends before the next day, you can't claim that, but if your boss says "I need you to stay after and keep working on this project" You can pretty much imply he's authorizing overtime.

Now, I'm not an EE, I just like to do this as a hobby, but I find one of the quickest ways to make me hate my job is to overload me with paperwork. I also dislike the thought of being pushed into management one day.  I'm also not particularly fond of project management per se, but if it's a project of my design, I don't mind as much.

[retrolefty]

The oil refinery I worked at had about a dozen EEs working full time, contractor engineers would be added for special projects. They had a good salary, set 40 hr/week, little travel, compensated for extra work with scheduled time off, and great benefits.

 Down side was work was almost exclusive electrical power stuff, lots of paper work, mostly specifying equipment for purchase by meeting with vendors, reviewing datasheets, reviewing new designs for NEC requirements, etc.

 I was in a different group, Instrumentation/controls, but did meet most of them over a 28 year span. Only one of them ever expressed interest in electronics outside the job. Most were tracking for management promotions. This was not a place for EEs that like to design stuff down to the component/module level. The refinery was very slow in bringing in new products with little or no track record. Very conservative company/management. But electrical reliability in a refinery is of utmost importance and a >100 year old refinery is always upgrading or building new proccess plants so the EE department was important and was well budgeted.

 I suspect that very few of any EEs that hang around this forum would like to have a EE job at that refinery, electrical power is not all that interesting. But for EEs that don't LOVE electronics, want a well balanced life with a very stable company it was a great job. Most were recruited out of college/university directly, some even having interned prior to graduation. It was a whole life career kind of job, very little turn-over.

 Bottom line is that there are EE jobs for different kind of people but you just have to know what is most important job priorities for you and seek to find it. 


 

[IanB]

The oil refinery I worked at had about a dozen EEs working full time, contractor engineers would be added for special projects. They had a good salary, set 40 hr/week, little travel, compensated for extra work with scheduled time off, and great benefits.

 Down side was work was almost exclusive electrical power stuff, lots of paper work, mostly specifying equipment for purchase by meeting with vendors, reviewing datasheets, reviewing new designs for NEC requirements, etc.

 I was in a different group, Instrumentation/controls, but did meet most of them over a 28 year span. Only one of them ever expressed interest in electronics outside the job. Most were tracking for management promotions. This was not a place for EEs that like to design stuff down to the component/module level. The refinery was very slow in bringing in new products with little or no track record. Very conservative company/management. But electrical reliability in a refinery is of utmost importance and a >100 year old refinery is always upgrading or building new proccess plants so the EE department was important and was well budgeted.

 I suspect that very few of any EEs that hang around this forum would like to have a EE job at that refinery, electrical power is not all that interesting. But for EEs that don't LOVE electronics, want a well balanced life with a very stable company it was a great job. Most were recruited out of college/university directly, some even having interned prior to graduation. It was a whole life career kind of job, very little turn-over.

 Bottom line is that there are EE jobs for different kind of people but you just have to know what is most important job priorities for you and seek to find it.

I would say that kind of engineering job would be typical for chemical engineers too. In addition to the technical areas of design, troubleshooting and upgrading, there would be project management, interacting with vendors, design codes, safety, environmental and emissions requirements, costs, interacting with other specialists, and so on. Promotion would involve more management and less technical work. But a refinery is also a good place to get outside, put on a hard hat, and interact with plant equipment. It's a good kind of job for people who like to be hands-on and have a mix of responsibilities.

[EEVblog]

The altenrative is to work for yourself and choose which 14 hours of the day you want to work..

Only 14?, doing well! 

[Stonent]

The altenrative is to work for yourself and choose which 14 hours of the day you want to work..

Only 14?, doing well! 

Become self employed and pick which 14 you want.

[eecook]

Well, I most definetely like electronics design, whatever that may involve, although I have a bias towards power electronics. I do like what I do, it's just the boundary conditions that I don't like. The fact that I work long hours ultimately is my fault, but there is peer preassure to do so. With regards to my boss, I think he is a good guy, but he's so damned stressed all the time, he's just hard to deal with.
- He doesn't answer emails (I suspect most of the time he doesn't even read them), and many times he simply doesn't pay attention to what you say.
- When I arrive to the office he won't say "hi" back although I try to be loud and clear.
- He minimizes efforts (although he claims to hate people that do that), like "what is this task gonna take you 2 hours right". One time I had to go to one of my experienced co-workers because I was assigned 2  days for something that was way to hard to complete in that time, we went to the board, made a fine break-down of the tasks and reached to the conclusion that it couldn't take less than 3 weeks. He went to my boss and negotiated it for me.
- He comes to you and tells you something, then he forgets, and tells you the opposite or pretends he never said anything. It's frustrating.
What sucks is that he is a really fine engineer and has a ton of technical skills. He has experienced all these things himself in the past. It is confusing to me why he would act like these.
I am gaining a lot of knowledge, that's why I haven't gave up on the job yet. I don't what I'm going to do next, but at least now I know what not to look for in a job. I appreciate everybody's input, I'll consider it for my next gig, whatever that may be.

Cheers!

[eecook]

The altenrative is to work for yourself and choose which 14 hours of the day you want to work..

Only 14?, doing well! 

Become self employed and pick which 14 you want.

Any advise on that front? It seems appealing right now, let me tell you.

[Stonent]

The altenrative is to work for yourself and choose which 14 hours of the day you want to work..

Only 14?, doing well! 

Become self employed and pick which 14 you want.

Any advise on that front? It seems appealing right now, let me tell you.

Dave would be more of an expert on that.

[john_p_wi]

Have not read the full thread, and will add that a 50 hour week is the norm for the hardware group that I work with.  Engineering is not glamorous, but a solid job with little turnover - yes there are higher paying jobs and it certainly does not seem to have the respect that it did when I started 30 years ago. 

If you want more time, go into sales / marketing, work from home and yeah, bust your ass the last few days of the quarter to make quota.  Work for a respectable company and be successful - the rewards are that you'll make more than an engineer ever will in the second year of your sales job 

[hammy]

With regards to my boss, I think he is a good guy, but he's so damned stressed all the time, he's just hard to deal with.

The points you list look like your boss is an engineer/technician but not "manager material".
You  are maybe right, maybe he is a good guy, but you are suffering due this situation and management style. It's your health you have to watch for, and your life you want "well rounded".
It is always a hard decision you have to make in such a situation.   

[HighVoltage]

Start your own business!
You will still work 10 hours a day, depending on how much workload you have.
But you will make much more money and enjoyment of life.

[eecook]

Start your own business!
You will still work 10 hours a day, depending on how much workload you have.
But you will make much more money and enjoyment of life.

I'm actually considering either starting my own thing, or moving to san francisco an try to get a job at a starup.

[EEVblog]

Dave would be more of an expert on that.

I've worked as a freelance contract design engineer, and it's no bed of roses. There is financial risk (lack of work gaps + projects going wrong & over estimate).
Plus you have multiple bosses, and they always want something yesterday.
You could be working harder than you are now, be careful what you wish for.
In that respect 9-5 work was better, as you simply walked out at the end of the day and forgot about it all. If you are working more than that all the time & not being paid for it, then you are working at a poorly managed company. Just leave and find a better job.

As for making videos for a living, I'm at the point where I probably could work only one or two days a week if I ignored the forum and all comments and emails, and was very efficient at shooting quick videos. But that doesn't really get you anywhere.
And it's kinda hard when your hobby has become your career.

[EEVblog]

Start your own business!
You will still work 10 hours a day, depending on how much workload you have.
But you will make much more money and enjoyment of life.

I'm actually considering either starting my own thing, or moving to san francisco an try to get a job at a starup.

You do realise that working for a startup is one of the longest hours high pressure jobs there is? And usually paid in stock options.

[EEVblog]

Start your own business!
You will still work 10 hours a day, depending on how much workload you have.
But you will make much more money and enjoyment of life.

Potentially make much more money.
And you'll only enjoy it more if you enjoy working on your business. If it's family life and holidays you want, forget it.

[EEVblog]

Another job choice that many like is to get a job at a really big company (usually they won't let you work more than 40hrs week), and in a role that has a lot of travel.
They pay for you to see the world, and you can take your partner with you.

[lgbeno]

I would say that earlier in your career you should start to identify your own worth and make sure that your employer knows.  Only you can advocate for yourself.

Most of the time, working so much is self imposed, think about office space, when he stopped caring, that was when he was promoted.  Sad but eerily true.

Working for a small company or startup may be more fulfilling but I wouldn't expect the work load to decrease....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fivefish]

Plus you have multiple bosses,

+1000. This is so TRUE!!!! Every client is a boss if you're running your own business.

[eecook]

Start your own business!
You will still work 10 hours a day, depending on how much workload you have.
But you will make much more money and enjoyment of life.

I'm actually considering either starting my own thing, or moving to san francisco an try to get a job at a starup.

You do realise that working for a startup is one of the longest hours high pressure jobs there is? And usually paid in stock options.

I do realize Dave, but my brain is a clusterfuck right now. I'm trying to sort out my priorities these days. What's appealing to me about a start up is that I could potentially work in something I feel passionate about, something I could very well be doing as a hobby. And, I suspect I wouldn't have to deal with much corporate bullshit if it's just a bunch of nerdy guys working as equals trying to get something to work and get it into the market, right?

[coppice]

Another job choice that many like is to get a job at a really big company (usually they won't let you work more than 40hrs week), and in a role that has a lot of travel.
They pay for you to see the world, and you can take your partner with you.

I do a fair amount of global business travel. I can talk about many of the world's major airports and hotels from first hand experience. 

[coppice]

Start your own business!
You will still work 10 hours a day, depending on how much workload you have.
But you will make much more money and enjoyment of life.

I'm actually considering either starting my own thing, or moving to san francisco an try to get a job at a starup.

You do realise that working for a startup is one of the longest hours high pressure jobs there is? And usually paid in stock options.

I think you mean you get lured into taking stock options instead of a better salary, and will almost always find those stock options worthless, even if there is an eventual successful IPO.

[lgbeno]

Just try this, in your current job, force yourself to leave early (well on time) and control your own life.  It is a test to see if your management really even notices.  The worst that they can do is tell you to start working more at which point you just say sorry this isn't for me and then it is onward and upward.

Self confidence is the number 1 asset in your career advancement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EEVblog]

Just try this, in your current job, force yourself to leave early (well on time) and control your own life.  It is a test to see if your management really even notices.  The worst that they can do is tell you to start working more at which point you just say sorry this isn't for me and then it is onward and upward.
Self confidence is the number 1 asset in your career advancement.

+1
It was well known at every company I worked at not to piss Dave off, he couldn't be threatened with being fired or a bad performance review, he had "screw you" money and wasn't afraid to use it.

[lgbeno]

Even if you don't have a lot of money built up, I gather you are young, mobile, have a degree in EE and live on the west coast already.  My perception (I don't live in CA) is that you walk out of one door and 2 hours later can find something else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[coppice]

Just try this, in your current job, force yourself to leave early (well on time) and control your own life.  It is a test to see if your management really even notices.  The worst that they can do is tell you to start working more at which point you just say sorry this isn't for me and then it is onward and upward.
Self confidence is the number 1 asset in your career advancement.

+1
It was well known at every company I worked at not to piss Dave off, he couldn't be threatened with being fired or a bad performance review, he had "screw you" money and wasn't afraid to use it.

I used to work with someone who is the son of a rich family. He was bright, but never did a whole lot of work. He wasn't even there half the time. When management were questioned about him they'd simply say he didn't need the money and would walk out if they complained. I never heard one question whether that really mattered. People are strange. 

[eecook]

Even if you don't have a lot of money built up, I gather you are young, mobile, have a degree in EE and live on the west coast already.  My perception (I don't live in CA) is that you walk out of one door and 2 hours later can find something else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha! I live in south america, EE design jobs are not abundant and in fact are extremely rare and poorly paid. I am fully conscious that I will have to move somewhere else. It makes it more challenging, but I'm up to it.

[lgbeno]

Ahh, sorry I misread between the lines.  I still think that you don't have much to loose.  Then again I understand that American culture is different than abroad.  I for sure encourage spreading your wings and chasing opportunity!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bitseeker]

Ahh, sorry I misread between the lines.

Maybe not a misread. Perhaps you read where eecook would fit.

Things that make you go...hmmmm.

[Galenbo]

I'm actually considering either starting my own thing, or moving to san francisco an try to get a job at a starup.

You do realise that working for a startup is one of the longest hours high pressure jobs there is? And usually paid in stock options.

Internet is full of: 10 reasons to never work (again) for a startup

[Galenbo]

Another job choice that many like is to get a job at a really big company (usually they won't let you work more than 40hrs week), and in a role that has a lot of travel.
They pay for you to see the world, and you can take your partner with you.

I do a fair amount of global business travel. I can talk about many of the world's major airports and hotels from first hand experience. 

Nice to see much of the world, inbetween airports, from the window of a plane.
Good to be able to compare cultural differences between car-rent companies :-)

The times I travelled for a company, I cost (like every other guy in that position) 5 times my regular price.
That made it a work-drink1beer-sleep schedule.

[KJDS]

I've done my share of business travelling. The worst one was flying from the UK to California on a Friday, spending Saturday in a meeting room and flying home on the Sunday. 22 hours in the air, plus another six hours on the road and another four hours in the airport isn't anywhere near as much fun as the jetset lifestyle that so many would love.

[DenzilPenberthy]

I've done my share of business travelling.... isn't anywhere near as much fun as the jetset lifestyle that so many would love.

Yep.    My travel highlights from a previous job include Southampton to Thurso for a <1hr meeting, >3 weeks commissioning a machine in a salad packing factory in Wigan, getting a desperate service call out just as I was leaving work on Fri afternoon and spending the weekend working 12hr nighshifts in a filthy and dangerous factory in Suffolk. I managed to dodge the overseas service visits, usually to China or India, but the tech who always went on those would usually become violently ill then have to work on a furnace in high 30's humid heat. I always got the impression though that it was preferable to going home to his wife..

Fun fun fun!

I've been catching up on Amp Hour episodes this week and there was one where Dave was encouraging 'young players' to get a job with lots of travel. I have to say I'm pretty happy to do very little travelling now

[GNU_Ninja]

I have to say I'm pretty happy to do very little travelling now

Yup. Travelling gets old really really quickly IMO

[EEVblog]

That made it a work-drink1beer-sleep schedule.

You were doing it wrong.
My first work trip was to England, I finished at the usual 5pm and it didn't get dark until 10:30pm. You can drive across England and back in that time.
a) Always get your own rental car
b) Always take a few days extra. Secretary's can re-arrange your flights without even informing management 

[coppice]

I've done my share of business travelling. The worst one was flying from the UK to California on a Friday, spending Saturday in a meeting room and flying home on the Sunday. 22 hours in the air, plus another six hours on the road and another four hours in the airport isn't anywhere near as much fun as the jetset lifestyle that so many would love.

You had meetings on Saturday and flew home Sunday? So, you had a night in a hotel, and that's your worst trip? Luxury.

This could easily turn into a rerun of a Monty Python sketch, but I know I'll loose. There will be someone here who has had one of those fun trips to South America that included a lot of kidnappers and gun fire. :-)

[Throy]

My worst trip was flying to England from Germany.  Having to get up at 3am to get to the airport by 5am and then flying back on the same day only to get home at 1am and then having to be in the office at 7am.  Worst part was my boss was with me and he didn't show up in the office until 10am.  Double standards...

[lgbeno]

My worst trip was flying to England from Germany.  Having to get up at 3am to get to the airport by 5am and then flying back on the same day only to get home at 1am and then having to be in the office at 7am.  Worst part was my boss was with me and he didn't show up in the office until 10am.  Double standards...

But did you really need to be in the office at 7am?  What would really happen if you didn't.?

I think that if you just said, look I had a long day yesterday and needed some extra rest and had to take care of some things at home that I wasn't able to yesterday.  I doubt it would land you in trouble.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Codemonkey]

You were doing it wrong.

^This!

In my previous job I went from the UK to Canada for a 2 day conference, worked nights in a shopping mall in Germany, worked on various construction sites in Singapore and always had a great time!

In my current job I've been to China 4 times (each time I flew to Beijing then visited a factory about 1 mile away from that new large crater in Tianjin). I got to visit the Great wall and most of the Olympic sites, plus always stayed in flashy 5 star hotels, again had a great time and met some really nice people and ate some "interesting" things!

Also been to Taiwan 4 times, again always put up in flash 5 star hotels (Taiwan does great 5 star hotels!) and had a great time. I don't mind the travelling bit, and I don't rush to be in the office the very next morning if I've just spent 24 hours on flights and in airports. I go back when I feel I have recovered. We have folks that do rush to be at their desk at 7am the next day, no one thanks them for it.

I recently had to visit a site in France and this time took my wife along. I had to pay for her travel & food etc, but whilst I had a week of work, she got a week of sightseeing in Normandy. I also extended the trip so we both got a weekend of leisure whilst there and then travelled back on a work day :-)

[hammy]

[...] to get home at 1am and then having to be in the office at 7am.

You know about the Law in germany about 11 hours rest period?

Arbeitszeitgesetz:
§ 5 Ruhezeit
(1) Die Arbeitnehmer müssen nach Beendigung der täglichen Arbeitszeit eine ununterbrochene Ruhezeit von mindestens elf Stunden haben.

If something happen during that time (in the car on the way to work, or on work the hot solder iron poke your eye out) it is your fault and not the insurance of your company has to pay! In this case your own insurance has to pay. And they don't want, because your behaviour was "grob fahrlässig".

Please take care in such a situation. If something happens you get no money and no insurance.

Cheers
hammy

[Throy]

At that time I didn't know about the law.  I had only been working in Germany for a little over a year.

[IanB]

My worst trip was flying to England from Germany.  Having to get up at 3am to get to the airport by 5am and then flying back on the same day only to get home at 1am and then having to be in the office at 7am.  Worst part was my boss was with me and he didn't show up in the office until 10am.  Double standards...

Heh. I did the same thing once flying to Germany from England for a day of meetings. When I arrived back at Heathrow that night I practically forgot what day it was... 

[Galenbo]

That made it a work-drink1beer-sleep schedule.

You were doing it wrong.
My first work trip was to England, I finished at the usual 5pm and it didn't get dark until 10:30pm. You can drive across England and back in that time.
a) Always get your own rental car
b) Always take a few days extra. Secretary's can re-arrange your flights without even informing management 

We carried +-60K worth measuring devices in that rental car.
That made the next job was already on the schedule.
We had no participation in planning and travel details, hotel was always with secured parking.

But I guess they were doing it wrong. They dropped the daily extra compensation from +150eur to 30eur, and suddenly
nobody was willing to "travel" anymore. I quit that job and the next year all the others had quit too.

[bitseeker]

Having worked in companies large and small, startups, and being self-employed, each one is just different. They all sucked in their own way and they had good things about them. Even if another job looks like it's "perfect", it's just going to be different (rose-colored glasses anyone?).

So, the key is knowing what's important to you and what you absolutely will not tolerate. Then, find a place that best fits your requirements, keeping in mind that, like engineering a product, there will always be tradeoffs.

[CatalinaWOW]

I totally agree that finding what is important to you and doing it is the key.  You have quite a bit of leverage at your current job, though you may not realize it.  Replacing you would require extra effort on somebodies part, and the chance that the replacement would not be as good as you.  Figure out what you really need, and then do it.  Occasional midweek day off?  Long lunch hour?  Home earlier every day?  Predictable time home?  The only one that comes through from your comments that may be hard is "More attention from the boss".  He may not have it in him.

Another key point is that you have control over your own attitude.  As stated above any job will have its bad spots.  You can choose to magnify these and turn them into a horrible burden you are forced to bear, or you can minimize them, or even turn them into a plus.  If your job requires cleaning the stables, dive into it with enthusiasm, get it done and move on to the better parts of the job.

[VK3DRB]

Having worked in companies large and small, startups, and being self-employed, each one is just different. They all sucked in their own way and they had good things about them. Even if another job looks like it's "perfect", it's just going to be different (rose-colored glasses anyone?).

So, the key is knowing what's important to you and what you absolutely will not tolerate. Then, find a place that best fits your requirements, keeping in mind that, like engineering a product, there will always be tradeoffs.

True, true. No place is perfect, although I did work at one place which were are all a great team, we were highly paid and there was free beer, Stolychnaya vodkas, Coca Cola and chips/lollies on tap. Occasionally I use to have Crown Lager for morning tea and I could code much faster after one of those. Despite us having a great product and morales being high, the place went bankrupt.

[bitseeker]

Having worked in companies large and small, startups, and being self-employed, each one is just different. They all sucked in their own way and they had good things about them. Even if another job looks like it's "perfect", it's just going to be different (rose-colored glasses anyone?).

So, the key is knowing what's important to you and what you absolutely will not tolerate. Then, find a place that best fits your requirements, keeping in mind that, like engineering a product, there will always be tradeoffs.

True, true. No place is perfect, although I did work at one place which were are all a great team, we were highly paid and there was free beer, Stolychnaya vodkas, Coca Cola and chips/lollies on tap. Occasionally I use to have Crown Lager for morning tea and I could code much faster after one of those. Despite us having a great product and morales being high, the place went bankrupt.

Yeah, and then there's that. The environment might be great, but the business has to be able to sustain it.