Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus

[EEVblog]

The article clearly states we should still clean our surfaces. What is the main path of transmission is highly sensitive to context. If people keep a distance then surfaces automatically become a more significant path of transmission. The real question then is: is transmission through surfaces a big enough problem? Given that the experts still say that cleaning surfaces is necessary it seems the answer to that question is 'yes'.

Of course, no different to regular cleaning of surfaces in places like gyms for example where people share equipment all the time.
That was common practice before the whole coronovirus thing, no surprise at all that general health advice on that isn't going to change.

[james_s]

The experts also said that meat prices would drop by around 30% due to an over supply and restaurants being closed. I went to town on a new barbecue with all the accessories and the meat prices didn't drop. I now feel like a silly sausage.   

Ours were down for a while but prices on some meats have gone up lately. We had several cases of meat processing plants where most of the workforce, hundreds of people tested positive for Covid and in at least one case three of them died and the plant was shut down for a period. I haven't checked the prices on cows but they don't magically turn into steaks without a little help.

[rdl]

The Kroger here limits purchase of fresh meats. Also, a lot of stuff has still not come back to normal stock levels. They did finally get some alcohol based hand cleaner in stock, which apparently comes from a local distillery, but the price is around $16 per liter.

[Zero999]

Use undoped mercury lamps which produce shorter wavelength UVC that make ozone, which can disinfect surfaces not exposed to the radiation.

Medical experts now say coronavirus ‘does not spread easily’ via surfaces
https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/medical-experts-now-say-coronavirus-does-not-spread-easily-via-surfaces-c-1052650
In other news, Isopropyl prices plummet.

I thought that was the case: that the main path of transmission is via the air. I wish people at work would focus more on social distancing, rather than cleaning.

The article clearly states we should still clean our surfaces. What is the main path of transmission is highly sensitive to context. If people keep a distance then surfaces automatically become a more significant path of transmission. The real question then is: is transmission through surfaces a big enough problem? Given that the experts still say that cleaning surfaces is necessary it seems the answer to that question is 'yes'.

Yes cleanliness is important, but what bothers me is when people spend time cleaning tools someone else has used, or worry about sharing stationary, only to talk with one another face-to-face, at much less than 2m distance, especialy when it could be easily avoided. I know there's a risk of getting infected by lending an infected person my screwdriver, then using it myself, without washing it first, but it's only significant if I touch my eyes, mouth, or pick my nose etc. but I have a much higher risk of getting infected talking to them, at too closer distance.

I know we have to get the job done, whist minimising risk, which will always be greater than zero, and that some tasks may take longer, but it's important people are aware of which activities pose the greater risk and prioritise accordingly.

People who are obviously close friends should be moved to different shifts. I know that might be counterproductive work-wise, as friends might work better together, but cutting the risk of spread is more important at the moment. There are also instances of two or more sharing an office, when there are spare offices available. I asked the boss about this and he said the people felt as though they could share an office, whilst maintaining social distancing, but I'm cynical. I think it would be better to force people to have separate offices, whenever possible. The virus can still spread to someone >2m away, so separate offices makes sense. We've been told that if one person in the department is infected, the rest of the team don't need to self-isolate or get tested, as the managers think the current measures are effective, but I know it's impractical for them to be followed all the time, so close colleagues of an infected person should self-isolate, until they test negative. If someone who I work with is infected, I will self-isolate, get tested and only return to work, if it's negative. I don't care whether it's company policy or not.

[GlennSprigg]

I've caught that too. Seems suspicious to me. The trains looked like New York subway carts to me. A quick Google confirms it:

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/20/21265221/nyc-mta-ultraviolet-light-uvc-coronavirus-disinfect-puro-pictures

If you read the article more carefully it doesn't make much sense. It sounds like a good money sink to me to cash in on the hype. The effect hasn't been scientifically proved and it won't help to prevent human-to-human transmission of virusses much.

Yes, it was a Page ago... sorry!!...
Thanks for that addition.  Yea, whether U.V. is an aid or not, obviously this article has nothing to do with "Person-to-person" transmission per se'... Except in a way it IS!  Dave said on the next page of this discussion, that it seems that contact with surfaces may not be as much of a problem. I disagree. Was proven to 'live' on surfaces from 3 to 5 days. Anyway... IF a surface is infected, and someone else touches that surface in the next train-load of passengers, then it's going to be transferred !!

They KEEP talking about people 'washing-their-hands' at home. This is because of the number of things we take for granted, when outside. A few steps with a banister rail. Countless door knobs/handles. Elevator push-buttons. Shopping carts, etc etc. It's NOT just about shaking hands, hugs & kisses!!  ALL these devices & more need cleaning, on top of the actual 'person to person' stuff.
If  'U.V.' is another proverbial 'Iron In The Fire', then why not use it also! 

Then again... 'electro detective' s immediate comment after this reply of yours, unfortunately reminded me AGAIN (embarrassingly) how some people are just so NEGATIVE about EVERYTHING!  What is it that makes that guy so ANGRY in life?? There are SO many constructive ways in life, to participate & share knowledge, and help, on countless facets. I think knowing when you die changes a lot!!!   
In the end... There are 'Aussies', and there are 'Aussies'. Don't tar us all with the same brush!   

[DrG]

Seems that a "change" in the thinking/guidance regarding SARS-CoV-2 surface spread story was a misinterpretation of the US CDC changing some text on their site pages https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/22/861193550/advice-on-surface-spread-of-covid-19-has-not-changed-cdc-says.

They (the CDC) says that they have not changed their position on the ways that SARS-CoV-2 can be spread https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html

I think it has always been the case that the belief has been that if you touch, with your hand for example, a surface containing sufficient SARS-CoV-2  AND then transfer it to your nose/mouth/eyes, by touching your nose/mouth/eyes, you can get infected.

I don't remember anyone saying or providing evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 can easily penetrate intact skin. Of course if you have a nice fresh cut on your skin, I would expect any self-respecting virus to infect upon having a free ride into your blood stream - but that is a different story.

As far as what I have read, the belief remains that the primary way of spread is through expelled droplets - like from a cough or a sneeze (usually distinguished from truly being airborne).

[GlennSprigg]

Seems that a "change" in the thinking/guidance regarding SARS-CoV-2 surface spread story was a misinterpretation of the US CDC changing some text on their site pages https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/22/861193550/advice-on-surface-spread-of-covid-19-has-not-changed-cdc-says.

They (the CDC) says that they have not changed their position on the ways that SARS-CoV-2 can be spread https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html

I think it has always been the case that the belief has been that if you touch, with your hand for example, a surface containing sufficient SARS-CoV-2  AND then transfer it to your nose/mouth/eyes, by touching your nose/mouth/eyes, you can get infected.

I don't remember anyone saying or providing evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 can easily penetrate intact skin. Of course if you have a nice fresh cut on your skin, I would expect any self-respecting virus to infect upon having a free ride into your blood stream - but that is a different story.

As far as what I have read, the belief remains that the primary way of spread is through expelled droplets - like from a cough or a sneeze (usually distinguished from truly being airborne).

In relation to your sentence that I made Bold, above...   I have never talked about 'Skin' transfer, but the fact that most people end up wiping/moving their hands/fingers to their face/nose/mouth at some stage, and there-in lies the problem.

[DrG]

Seems that a "change" in the thinking/guidance regarding SARS-CoV-2 surface spread story was a misinterpretation of the US CDC changing some text on their site pages https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/22/861193550/advice-on-surface-spread-of-covid-19-has-not-changed-cdc-says.

They (the CDC) says that they have not changed their position on the ways that SARS-CoV-2 can be spread https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html

I think it has always been the case that the belief has been that if you touch, with your hand for example, a surface containing sufficient SARS-CoV-2  AND then transfer it to your nose/mouth/eyes, by touching your nose/mouth/eyes, you can get infected.

I don't remember anyone saying or providing evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 can easily penetrate intact skin. Of course if you have a nice fresh cut on your skin, I would expect any self-respecting virus to infect upon having a free ride into your blood stream - but that is a different story.

As far as what I have read, the belief remains that the primary way of spread is through expelled droplets - like from a cough or a sneeze (usually distinguished from truly being airborne).

In relation to your sentence that I made Bold, above...   I have never talked about 'Skin' transfer, but the fact that most people end up wiping/moving their hands/fingers to their face/nose/mouth at some stage, and there-in lies the problem.

I agree with you and did not think that you (or anyone) had suggested a trans-cutaneous infection route.

[jeffheath]

I'm okay with whatever needs to be done to keep the most people alive, (forcing people to wear masks/gloves, spacing, and even screwing the economy) but the media's reaction to this, as well as the public's, has been abysmal. I saw a car in a supermarket parking lot that was packed liked a sardine can with groceries, so much so that I didn't even realize there was someone IN the car before I was finished taking a picture. Not to mention the toilet paper, which I guess is just people being stupid because they're scared. What I don't understand is why the media has to scare the crap out of everybody, if there's no cure. If they thought it would suddenly make everyone aware and conscious, and super meticulous at containing the disease, than they were wrong.

[james_s]

The biggest disappointment for me has been how incredibly politicized this has been. I don't know about other nations but in the USA it has become a split right down the party lines. At the beginning I thought at least one good aspect of the pandemic is that we could put aside politics for a while and all work together with a common goal against a common threat, I mean liberal, conservative and everything in between, I'd have thought we would all like to stay alive and healthy and keep our older relatives alive and healthy but apparently not. It's fine to disagree on how to handle it but it should not be a political matter. 

It has also shown how irrational and self centered the average person is, the hoarding is just one symptom of that. The media has not impressed me either, in the eternal quest for ratings they have missed no opportunity to stir people up, if they're not stirring up fear of infection they're stirring up fear of big evil government taking away our rights.

[KL27x]

The media has not impressed me either, in the eternal quest for ratings they have missed no opportunity to stir people up, if they're not stirring up fear of infection they're stirring up fear of big evil government taking away our rights.

Yeah, our media has been having a field day trying to misinterpret and make the President look bad. I expect any human to eventually break down when faced with that kind of scrutiny and pressure 8 hours a day for weeks on end.

But the media isn't trying to scare us away from big government. Are you kidding? They're for big government. Government that will take care of everyone.

[Nusa]

The media has not impressed me either, in the eternal quest for ratings they have missed no opportunity to stir people up, if they're not stirring up fear of infection they're stirring up fear of big evil government taking away our rights.

Yeah, our media has been having a field day trying to misinterpret and make the President look bad. I expect any human to eventually break down when faced with that kind of scrutiny and pressure 8 hours a day for weeks on end.

But the media isn't trying to scare us away from big government. Are you kidding? They're for big government. Government that will take care of everyone.

That reply was 90% political opinion. Wrong forum for that. Keep it neutral or don't say it at all.

[SerieZ]

The Politicization of this Catastrophe here in Switzerland was not as bad as in the US, especially in the start it seemed to be a mutual effort between all parties involved and no real finger pointing.
Only in the recent few weeks as the Issue got better it has started to evolve into a fight as to how to proceed and go back to normal.
I am surprised how smooth things went on the Official level here TBH,... Legacy Media however did not disappoint to disappoint (especially the typical tabloids) thus I only took Official Information somewhat serious anyways.
Personally this Information only took me to be a bit more careful with hygiene and sorroundings, everything else was the same and can't see the harm in that.

That said and looking at US Media what I do find appalling is the absolute lack of empathy now towards young and middle aged people who just had their existences destroyed or future massively hampered. Sure we have to protect the elderly and find solutions, but the portrayal of those wanting to go back to work as dumb rednecks to be put on pillory as I've observed Media/Social Media leaves me without words.
I am afraid to look at the statistics of suicide next few months but I guess who gives a shit about young peoples families as long as you can smear the opposition. 

[GlennSprigg]

Unless I'm 'Dumb'.... (There's a fish-line & hook for some people! hahaha!!)...
UNTIL there is a 'Vaccine', how can we relax rules, and start going "back to normal" ??
OK, we are reducing the possibilities of transmission, due to the actions we(most!) are taking, but beyond that,
what am I missing about 'relaxations' eventually leading to a major 2nd wave, or 3rd!! due to complacency! ??
As an example, just the other day, some, (don't know who, or in what area) Church in Germany decided to re-
open their doors to the masses, and now 40 of them are infected!! What is it they don't understand???
The often quoted, "for the duration", must/should mean "when there's a vaccine"

[thinkfat]

It was a Baptist church, not far from here. They claim to have held safe distance, but didn't wear face masks and were singing a lot. Meanwhile over 100 people were tested positive.

[nctnico]

That said and looking at US Media what I do find appalling is the absolute lack of empathy now towards young and middle aged people who just had their existences destroyed or future massively hampered. Sure we have to protect the elderly and find solutions, but the portrayal of those wanting to go back to work as dumb rednecks to be put on pillory as I've observed Media/Social Media leaves me without words.

It depends on how people protest. If they keep a safe distance it is OK but being close and touching eachother on purpose -> enter trumb redneck territory.

And when it comes to existences being destroyed: that is the system without social security they voted for in the US. And yet; if you are able and sound of mind you can always find something or somewhere else to make money. A pandemic offers lots of new businiess opportunities which need workforce.

[james_s]

It was a Baptist church, not far from here. They claim to have held safe distance, but didn't wear face masks and were singing a lot. Meanwhile over 100 people were tested positive.

I have a hard time understanding the church thing. I won't claim to be any sort of expert on theological matters but I thought most of the mainstream gods people believe in are supposed to be omnipotent and ever-present. That being the case, I don't really grasp the dire importance of having everyone return to a specific building as soon as possible. Surely people can worship at home and sermons or whatever can be broadcast via various internet mediums? Allowing dozens or hundreds of people to gather in the same building seems like an exceptionally high risk activity with very little benefit. Sure there is the social/community aspect but how is that fundamentally different than gathering at a pub? 

[maginnovision]

For the religious their core values include religion. They need it just like their family. My grandparents were Catholics until the day they died and they went to church at least once a day. A priest was with my grandmother for months until she died. You don't have to understand it, just understand they NEED it. They don't see it as optional. I'm surprised they stayed closed as long as they did.

The shutdowns were never about keeping people from getting sick. It was to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. Right now, in the US, job done. After that you start opening up with enough restrictions to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. People get annoyed when they're not seeing the apocalypse they've been told about. They get annoyed when they see places opening that also aren't all of a sudden having thousands dead in the street. If you don't get it, that's ok, but surely you can understand they don't see the threat.

[thinkfat]

It was a Baptist church, not far from here. They claim to have held safe distance, but didn't wear face masks and were singing a lot. Meanwhile over 100 people were tested positive.

I have a hard time understanding the church thing. I won't claim to be any sort of expert on theological matters but I thought most of the mainstream gods people believe in are supposed to be omnipotent and ever-present. That being the case, I don't really grasp the dire importance of having everyone return to a specific building as soon as possible. Surely people can worship at home and sermons or whatever can be broadcast via various internet mediums? Allowing dozens or hundreds of people to gather in the same building seems like an exceptionally high risk activity with very little benefit. Sure there is the social/community aspect but how is that fundamentally different than gathering at a pub? 

The act of coming together in communion is deeply ingrained in all religion. It's an act of reassurance, beneficial for the community on a social level. It is comforting for people especially in a crisis, to be with other people who share the same value system. Unfortunately, many don't realize that the threat is quite real and that our understanding of dangerous behavior is limited. It appears now that being in the same room and singing loudly transmits the virus quite efficiently, even if you keep a 1.5m distance and wash your hands. Astonishing is the rate of spread, though. The transmission chains are not completely understood yet (this will be excellent study material), but it appears that a single spreader sparked this whole cluster.

[Zero999]

Unless I'm 'Dumb'.... (There's a fish-line & hook for some people! hahaha!!)...
UNTIL there is a 'Vaccine', how can we relax rules, and start going "back to normal" ??
OK, we are reducing the possibilities of transmission, due to the actions we(most!) are taking, but beyond that,
what am I missing about 'relaxations' eventually leading to a major 2nd wave, or 3rd!! due to complacency! ??
As an example, just the other day, some, (don't know who, or in what area) Church in Germany decided to re-
open their doors to the masses, and now 40 of them are infected!! What is it they don't understand???
The often quoted, "for the duration", must/should mean "when there's a vaccine"

The idea is to use contact tracing, which is nothing new and has been used to control infections diseases in the past such as polio and HIV. If someone develops symptoms of COVID-19, the first thing they need to do is self-isolate, until they're tested. If the test comes back positive, everyone they've had contact with needs to be traced, contacted and tested and those who test positive need to do the same. Done well, this should break the chain of transmission by only isolating those who are, or stand a high chance, of being infected, rather than everyone.

Unfortunately contact tracing requires large numbers of trained professionals to access the level of risk of the contact, thus who's worth contacting and testing. There was no way it could have been implemented in places such as the UK a couple of months ago, when the number of cases vastly exceeded test and trace capacity. Some people are also concerned about privacy, not just from tools such as the contact tracing app, but having what can be only described as detectives tracking them. Fortunately it will work, as long as most cooperate. Hopefully governments have being building test capacity and training contact tracers during lockdown, so it can be eased without a second wave.

I have mixed feelings about the UK. I'm confident the NHS will be able to deal with a second wave, but I'm not convinced enough has been invested in contact tracing and testing. I think we'll need some social distancing measures in place for some time yet.

[cdev]

It was a Baptist church, not far from here. They claim to have held safe distance, but didn't wear face masks and were singing a lot. Meanwhile over 100 people were tested positive.

I have a hard time understanding the church thing. I won't claim to be any sort of expert on theological matters but I thought most of the mainstream gods people believe in are supposed to be omnipotent and ever-present. That being the case, I don't really grasp the dire importance of having everyone return to a specific building as soon as possible. Surely people can worship at home and sermons or whatever can be broadcast via various internet mediums? Allowing dozens or hundreds of people to gather in the same building seems like an exceptionally high risk activity with very little benefit. Sure there is the social/community aspect but how is that fundamentally different than gathering at a pub? 

Wherever people connect up with their support networks, and friends, there often is no online alternative, they are very important for people. People are just social animals, we start going crazy without human contact.

[SerieZ]

That said and looking at US Media what I do find appalling is the absolute lack of empathy now towards young and middle aged people who just had their existences destroyed or future massively hampered. Sure we have to protect the elderly and find solutions, but the portrayal of those wanting to go back to work as dumb rednecks to be put on pillory as I've observed Media/Social Media leaves me without words.

It depends on how people protest. If they keep a safe distance it is OK but being close and touching eachother on purpose -> enter trumb redneck territory.

And when it comes to existences being destroyed: that is the system without social security they voted for in the US. And yet; if you are able and sound of mind you can always find something or somewhere else to make money. A pandemic offers lots of new businiess opportunities which need workforce.

1. It is easy to point at the extremists to portray a bad Image. This is something people profusely Ideological do all the time because it is easier than arguing and thus should never be taken without a big grain of salt.

2. Not really, I still do not get why people believe the US has absolutely no security net. That is simply not correct.
But this is besides the point anyways as this Problem of future existences threatened also extends to countries with very big security nets - such as Germany.
Many, many people will lose their Job or their businesses and future prospects and no, not everyone is happy with pity State handouts in the long term. Id argue very very few people are happy with that.
People want Careers, Families and maybe even some Property. I do not think the state can replace these desires, even if some people are very adamant in trying to prove that otherwise - and objectively failing.

3. Sure, Crisis also brings Opportunity for some.

[nctnico]

People want Careers, Families and maybe even some Property. I do not think the state can replace these desires, even if some people are very adamant in trying to prove that otherwise - and objectively failing.

You have to put some numbers on it. For example: the economy of Germany is expected to shrink by 6.6% in 2020. That means that 93.4% of the businesses are still running. Other countries show similar numbers and the economic contraction is on par to that of credit-crunch of 2008. All in all the impact of the Covid19 pandemic is not the economic catastrophy people think it is. A few sectors like airlines, restaurants/bars are hit hard but others can continue. Since public transport is a no-go for many there is a boom in car sales around the corner.

[SerieZ]

People want Careers, Families and maybe even some Property. I do not think the state can replace these desires, even if some people are very adamant in trying to prove that otherwise - and objectively failing.

You have to put some numbers on it. For example: the economy of Germany is expected to shrink by 6.6% in 2020. That means that 93.4% of the businesses are still running. Other countries show similar numbers and the economic contraction is on par to that of credit-crunch of 2008. All in all the impact of the Covid19 pandemic is not the economic catastrophy people think it is. A few sectors like airlines, restaurants/bars are hit hard but others can continue. Since public transport is a no-go for many there is a boom in car sales around the corner.

Hmmm..., I am always careful with predictions... I still remember the absolute mess and struggle for people in 2008-9+years after. I lived in Spain back then as well and there it really was a shitshow for young people. I guess this makes me take a bit more emotional approach than only looking at the numbers. I am really worried.

[Zero999]

Just a few points:

Regarding the church: perhaps it was too early to reopen, but at least the contact tracing and tescting capacity is now good enough to link the outbreak to the church. If the desease isn't too widespread, then clusters can be isolated by only locking down small towns or just closing places, where there's a high concentration of cases. If this is just an isolated outbreak, then just close the local churches, rather than all of them.

One of the myths about COVID-19 is it only affects old people and those with pre-existing health problems. Whilst it's true, the mortality rate is much higher for older people, a lot of relatively young and healthy people become very sick and will die without medical attention. At the moment one of my colleague's daughers is very ill in hospital with pnumonia due to COVID-19, at the young age of 21. The data we have gives an infection mortality rate of around 1%, but this in places with good universal heathcare such as China: without medical attention it could easilly be around five times that. Other deases don't stop because of the pandemic. If hospitals are overwhelmed, then plenty of others with easilly treatable illness will die. At the very least, it's important to keep the rate of infections below the healthcare capacity.

Yes there are people who will make more money from the pandemic, making gloves, masks, UVC lamps etc.  and there will be those who will have saved money, as they continiued to work, but not had the same opportunity to spend, since all the resturaunts and bars have been closed. Hopefully when everything finally does open back up again, those who have profited and saved will spend more, stimulating the recovery. Unfortunately since economies are linked internationally, the impact of local governments' decisions will depend on what happens to the rest of the world.

Interestinly it seems that the pandemic itself will damage the economy, possibly more than any lockdown, if nothing is done. A study into the 1918 pandemic showed that cities which reacted earlier and had longer restrictions, recovered more quickly economically, than those which did less. Yes I accept there are flaws in the study: low frequency data, the cities weren't comparable with one another and things are different now, as back then the economy was less focused on services, than it is to day, but we should always learn from history and the negative effects of the pandemic itself shouldn't be ignored.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/3/31/21199874/coronavirus-spanish-flu-social-distancing