General > General Technical Chat
Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus
Zero999:
--- Quote from: Buriedcode on June 08, 2020, 05:31:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on June 08, 2020, 12:32:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on June 08, 2020, 09:38:10 am ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on June 08, 2020, 07:59:47 am ---If there was a significant risk from taking the standard dose sold in pharmacies, then it would only be available on prescription.
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That is wishfull thinking. A while ago I read a test in a consumer magazine and they found that there where several types of vitamin tablets which had harmful doses. If it isn't regulated it isn't regulated.
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In the UK and perhaps the EU, vitamin supplements are regulated. They mustn't contain anything harmful or make any false claims. No doubt there are harmful doses available, but there are plenty of people selling things which are dangerous and don't comply with the relevant regulations. Buy from a reputable pharmacy and you should be fine.
https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/media/document/foodsupplementsenglish_0.pdf
If you're in a country which lacks proper regulations, then import from a reputable pharmacy in country which does.
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They don't have to make claims - notice how an ad in the UK says "now with Turmeric!". Or " added magnesium to support normal functioning. The fact these ingredients are added implies that they have a purpose and some efficacy. Water supports normal functioning. CO2 supports normal functioning. My point is, supplements are not medicine in a legal sense, and provided no specific claims are made, they can be implied. This is why you no longer hear about "anti-oxidants" "helping to protect against cancer" but rather the more subtle "as part of a healthy diet".
The regulations aren't particularly strict - I mean you can buy homeopathic "remedies" at pharmacies still, because ultimately, its peoples choice, and it isn't in any way a medicine, just lactose and colouring.
In the US, some have found to contain contaminants: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-warns-homeopathic-firms-putting-patients-risk-significant-violations-manufacturing-quality
I@m not anti-supplement. Just that they are supplements, not a substitute for a poor diet, merely there to prevent severe deficiency for those who cannot get enough through diet.
The other myth I rant about (sorry) is the idea that with nutrients... not enough is bad, some is good... so more must be better?
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I'm not talking about silly added ingredients which some believe have health benefits, or homeopathic remedies, but plain old vitamin supplements, i.e. pills containing chemicals which are essential for the human body to function properly. Yes, they are covered by food, rather than medical regulations, which state they must not contain anything harmful. Consumer protection laws state that anything sold, must be as described, so they can't legally sell pills stating they contain 5µg of D3, when they're just potato starch, colouring and beeswax. And duh, some bad actors sell contaminated products and the same has been true for food: remember the Chinese baby milk scandal?
Of course one should eat a balanced diet, but most foods are a poor source of vitamin D, so you won't get enough if you hardly go outside, or if you have dark skin and live far away from the equator. Why do you think people living at higher latitudes evolved lighter coloured skin? Vitamin D of course. If it was readily available from food, we'd all be black, because the protection from the sun would still be important, especially in summer. The only evolutionary advantage to being white is extra vitamin D.
The site links below lists 7 foods high in vitamin D, well not quite, in reality it's four, since few foods in the UK are fortified with vitamin D, cod liver oil is more of a supplement, than a food and most mushrooms sold in shops are grown in the dark, thus contain virtually no vitamin D. Note that it's nearly all seafood, which is quite expensive here. Unless you mostly eat fish, as your main protein source, you wont meet your vitamin D requirements from food. It's just not practical. For those who can't make up the rest of their vitamin D requirements from sunlight, supplements are the only way.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/9-foods-high-in-vitamin-d
Yes, there is such thing as too much, especially the fat soluble vitamins which don't get excreted from the human body, but as long as one sticks to the recommended dose, there's no risk of having too much.
Buriedcode:
I agree I've helped steer this off topic a bit. But there is so much bull around supplements and diet, I'm surprised not more companies have used this pandemic to promote their products.
Zero999, whilst I don't doubt many supplements contain the stated ingredients (which says nothing about bio-availability, efficacy, or any actual health benefits, such as magnesium oxide, which can't be absorbed), not all contain what they claim: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/03/revealed-vitamin-supplements-that-dont-contain-what-they-say/ If they don't contain the specified ingredients, it isn't really a scandal, as there is no direct harm, except perhaps the idea that taking supplements is somehow a substitute for a reasonable healthy lifestyle, preventing people from making changes.
You've pointed out quite a bit of info about vitamin D, its sources, and deficiency, but that implies that you/we know what a deficiency is. I agree those with darker skin or those less exposed to sunlight will make lower amounts, but, does that means that many people are deficient? How many? And what effects does a mild or moderate deficiency have? These are questions I haven't found answers to (either because we just don't know, or I'm crap at googling). Again, I just don't know, I'm not talking about severe deficiency, which in modern times is extremely rare.
The only websites I've seen claiming that there's an epidemic of Vitamin D deficiency were either "wellness" pseudoscience blogs, or ones promoting...ta dah.. their own brand of supplements. So I haven't found what constitutes a deficiency, because quoted blood serum levels vary wildly from less-than-trustworthy websites.
nctnico: That boy in the UK did indeed lose his sight. It was a scandal, and national news because it is so rare that someone would have a deficiency for so long as to cause such harm. You could live on junk food and pretty much get "enough" nutrients to at least not cause severe problems. But apparently had such a restrictive diet that lived on crisps and chips (other food would make him vomit), refused to take supplements (which would have been enough to save his sight at least). But it's also a scandal because the medical authorities let it happen. There could have been many interventions taken, but no-one kept track of the patient for years. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49551337
As for COVID-19, in terms of health myths, this pandemic has had some positive effect - it seems many of those who believe in woo like essential oils have been highlighted as being dangerous by those who are genuinely worried. It won't stop the media and social media jumping the gun with fad diets and "ways to beat covid 19!", but hopefully the seriousness of the situation will make the public less inclined to swallow such crap.
Zero999:
--- Quote from: Buriedcode on June 08, 2020, 09:07:05 pm ---I agree I've helped steer this off topic a bit. But there is so much bull around supplements and diet, I'm surprised not more companies have used this pandemic to promote their products.
Zero999, whilst I don't doubt many supplements contain the stated ingredients (which says nothing about bio-availability, efficacy, or any actual health benefits, such as magnesium oxide, which can't be absorbed), not all contain what they claim: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/03/revealed-vitamin-supplements-that-dont-contain-what-they-say/ If they don't contain the specified ingredients, it isn't really a scandal, as there is no direct harm, except perhaps the idea that taking supplements is somehow a substitute for a reasonable healthy lifestyle, preventing people from making changes.
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Well we're talking about vitamin D here and the type found in most supplements is D3, which has excellent bioavailability, especially if it's taken with fatty food, hence why cod liver oil is so popular. It's minerals such as iron and magnesium, as you've mentioned which often have poor bioavailability, not just in some supplements, but also foods: most vitamins are generally readily absorbed.
If the supplement doesn't contain what's listed on the packet, then they're committing fraud, no different to those fake germicidal UV lamps and the authorities should take action.
--- Quote ---You've pointed out quite a bit of info about vitamin D, its sources, and deficiency, but that implies that you/we know what a deficiency is. I agree those with darker skin or those less exposed to sunlight will make lower amounts, but, does that means that many people are deficient? How many? And what effects does a mild or moderate deficiency have? These are questions I haven't found answers to (either because we just don't know, or I'm crap at googling). Again, I just don't know, I'm not talking about severe deficiency, which in modern times is extremely rare.
The only websites I've seen claiming that there's an epidemic of Vitamin D deficiency were either "wellness" pseudoscience blogs, or ones promoting...ta dah.. their own brand of supplements. So I haven't found what constitutes a deficiency, because quoted blood serum levels vary wildly from less-than-trustworthy websites.
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Yes the optimum vitamin D level is subject to debate, but just stick with the general recommended daily allowance, as a guideline.
As hinted before, we need a the correct immune response. Too much and there's an inflammatory reaction, which harms healthy tissue, too little and the virus wins. It's a fine balance and vitamin D seems to be good at optimising it.
Stick to proper, peer reviewed medical papers, not sites selling things. I admit, I'm not much good at Googling either, some of the papers I linked to previously, were taken from medical YouTubers and not the fake ones but real doctors and nurses.
I agree, there's probably little benefit in taking supplements, if you already have adequate vitamin D levels, but if you're in an at risk group, then it's probably a good idea, unless you've been tested and found to not be deficient.
PlainName:
The official line on this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-new-advice-on-vitamin-d
which says:
--- Quote ---PHE advises that in spring and summer, the majority of the population get enough vitamin D through sunlight on the skin and a healthy, balanced diet. During autumn and winter, everyone will need to rely on dietary sources of vitamin D. Since it is difficult for people to meet the 10 microgram recommendation from consuming foods naturally containing or fortified with vitamin D, people should consider taking a daily supplement containing 10 micrograms of vitamin D in autumn and winter.
--- End quote ---
My emphasis. Additionally, and again my emphasis:
--- Quote ---People whose skin has little or no exposure to the sun, like those in institutions such as care homes, or who always cover their skin when outside, risk vitamin D deficiency and need to take a supplement throughout the year. Ethnic minority groups with dark skin, from African, Afro-Caribbean and South Asian backgrounds, may not get enough vitamin D from sunlight in the summer and therefore should consider taking a supplement all year round.
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Note that this is pre-covid19 so would apply to normal, healthy people. You can do the maths if, now, we're told we need a bit more than normal to help us along.
cdev:
COVID-19 is a once in a lifetime opportunity for drug companies to profit they say. Nothing not nothing is going to rain on their parade.
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