Author Topic: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?  (Read 45187 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2015, 07:36:57 pm »
Unemployment is falling in Holland...

Zero job growth not always bad. Given the current state of the European economy, most economies would take zero growth happily.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 07:38:45 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline German_EE

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2015, 08:03:02 pm »
Firstly I'd look at where they got the degree. If it's a university or college that is well known then no problem, if it's a place I have never heard of then maybe some investigation is required just in case they are a degree factory.

If they have a degree then they get a practical test, perhaps remove an IC from a working board and then solder it back in, or maybe a bit of fault finding. If they don't have a degree then they get a theory test, compute the output of an opamp given known input levels and component values, then the resonant frequency of an LC network, and finally the output of a circuit using standard logic gates.

I used to work for an elevator manufacturer. ALL candidates for field service positions got a height test to make sure they could safely handle elevator shafts, fail that and there was no point continuing.
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Offline KJDS

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2015, 08:15:23 pm »
A degree is just an indication that someone is capable of learning. To treat it as any more than that is careless.

To treat someone without a degree as in some way better is even more careless.

Offline Yansi

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2015, 08:34:03 pm »
If they have a degree then they get a practical test, perhaps remove an IC from a working board and then solder it back in, or maybe a bit of fault finding. If they don't have a degree then they get a theory test, compute the output of an opamp given known input levels and component values, then the resonant frequency of an LC network, and finally the output of a circuit using standard logic gates.

I used to work for an elevator manufacturer. ALL candidates for field service positions got a height test to make sure they could safely handle elevator shafts, fail that and there was no point continuing.

Would be really nice, if  they all have used tests like you.

Mmm.. how's height test being made?
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2015, 08:57:44 pm »
Quote
If they don't have a degree then they get a theory test, compute the output of an opamp given known input levels and component values, then the resonant frequency of an LC network, and finally the output of a circuit using standard logic gates.

That sounds like a good test for a highschool equivalent degree.
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Offline DIPLover

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2015, 09:21:04 pm »
Around here it's easy.

If you have no degree and are not a member of the order of engineers, you cannot call yourself an engineer, nor work as an engineer, nor sign or approve plans.

So you do your 4 years of study and get a degree. This lets you enter the workforce as a Junior Engineer, in a position where you must be supervised by a full (or senior) engineer for 3 years. Then you can pass your exam and become a full engineer on your own. Practicing engineers thus have a responsibility to help develop the knowledge and skills of the next generation and not just academics.

A Master's Degree or Ph.D. will reduce the junior period by a year (and will also generally open up doors to positions in R&D instead of testing but that's another matter).

So to answer your original question, I would only ever hire degreed engineers. Seniors are usually quite good but will cost you more. Gifted juniors and coop students can be a bargain, but you will need at least one full engineer on staff to guide/supervise them.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 09:31:50 pm by DIPLover »
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2015, 10:52:34 pm »
People who denigrate those who have degrees because they themselves don't have one, are as bad as those who denigrate those who don't have a degree because they themselves have one. I have seen both examples in the workplace over the years.

Yes, I would hire a person without a degree as an electronics engineer if they are made of the right stuff (for the argument, I do have an engineering degree). Many people without degrees have made excellent engineers over the years. But there is one thing an engineering degree does provide which is very important: CONTROL THEORY. Control theory is one of the most useful tools taught in an engineering degree course and it paves the way to good design in everything... from business processes to op-amps.

I would not hire anyone as an electronics engineer if they did not have a personal passion for electronics. That wipes out many people from certain backgrounds who get their degree primarily for cultural status reasons, or those who got a degree only as a means to get a high paying job. I look for boffins. At an interview, I always what electronics people do at home and test their knowledge. It is a gauge of their genuine interest in the craft.







 

Offline tautech

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2015, 11:06:19 pm »
People who denigrate those who have degrees because they themselves don't have one, are as bad as those who denigrate those who don't have a degree because they themselves have one. I have seen both examples in the workplace over the years.

Yes, I would hire a person without a degree as an electronics engineer if they are made of the right stuff (for the argument, I do have an engineering degree). Many people without degrees have made excellent engineers over the years. But there is one thing an engineering degree does provide which is very important: CONTROL THEORY. Control theory is one of the most useful tools taught in an engineering degree course and it paves the way to good design in everything... from business processes to op-amps.

I would not hire anyone as an electronics engineer if they did not have a personal passion for electronics. That wipes out many people from certain backgrounds who get their degree primarily for cultural status reasons, or those who got a degree only as a means to get a high paying job. I look for boffins. At an interview, I always what electronics people do at home and test their knowledge. It is a gauge of their genuine interest in the craft.
The passion is the key IMO.
Personal shortcomings are overcome if passion exists.
But intelligence & IQ are required to push oneself forward.

Demonstation of maths ability is paramount.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2015, 11:23:13 pm »
I would not hire anyone as an electronics engineer if they did not have a personal passion for electronics. That wipes out many people from certain backgrounds who get their degree primarily for cultural status reasons, or those who got a degree only as a means to get a high paying job. I look for boffins. At an interview, I always what electronics people do at home and test their knowledge. It is a gauge of their genuine interest in the craft.
I used to think that too but I had to admit I was wrong early on in my career. At one point my boss informed me we would have an intern (EE BS level) for a final project. When he came over to introduce himself we could hear his car (or better said: the sound system) a mile away. His attitude didn't show he cared much about anything and he didn't do anything with electronics at home. Long story short: he made something very complicated and finished it even though he had to switch to an entirely different method half way the project. Quite an achievement!

In my experience the only way to figure out if someone fits the job description is to have him/her do take a test to see if they master the basic knowledge (a degree is not a proof of that) and then give them a temporary contract for a couple of months. That will learn if someone is interested in their job and what his/her potential is. There are too many variables to tell if someone is suitable for a job or not by just ticking items of a list in 10 minutes.

I do agree that people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people. I'm inclined to choose someone with a degree over a self taught person because I've seen the mess the self taught people can make. I've also dealt with several self taught people who would have been able to take their talents to much higher levels than they are achieving now. Just like a diamond needs cutting and polishing in order to really shine.

edit: typo
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 12:54:07 am by nctnico »
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2015, 11:38:59 pm »
Quote
people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people.

OK. Let's do an experiment:

Problem: you run a match factory where matches are put into match boxes on a conveyor belt. If the boxes are not fully filled, customers complain and you run the risk of losing your business. So you need to come up with a way to identify and eliminate such boxes.

You have general freedom to come up with whatever solution you think may solve the problem.

The simplest / lowest cost one wins.

State your solution and your degree.

I have a solution and I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, this was a real-life problem.
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Offline Stonent

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2015, 11:44:45 pm »
In IT it seems like it is full of people with political science and psychology degrees.

So politically motivated and crazy people.

As I'm still working on my degree and it will be IT in nature I won't fall into either category.
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2015, 11:46:55 pm »
I am almost at retirement age. I have two pieces of paper decorating my office wall.. a BE in Elec eng and a more recent ( 12 year old post grad dipin IT).

By law I may not call myself an engineer in Queensland.Across the border in any other state of Australia yes I am recognised as an engineer.

Here in Queensland of recent time I need to be interrogated and certified as an engineer. As an engineer in Australia I am personally responsible for work I do and may be charged with manslaughter in case there is a work place related death.

 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2015, 12:00:29 am »
Quote
people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people.

OK. Let's do an experiment:

Problem: you run a match factory where matches are put into match boxes on a conveyor belt. If the boxes are not fully filled, customers complain and you run the risk of losing your business. So you need to come up with a way to identify and eliminate such boxes.

You have general freedom to come up with whatever solution you think may solve the problem.

The simplest / lowest cost one wins.

State your solution and your degree.

I have a solution and I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, this was a real-life problem.

That, of course, is a completely unhelpful and irrelevant response. Why? because you deliberately snipped the authors caveats and counter examples. Your response was to a strawman argument that you had constructed. Very unimpressive. It is almost as if you have a big chip on your shoulder.

So, what was your purpose in snipping and then responding?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online AlfBaz

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2015, 12:14:53 am »
...in Queensland.
Given the dwindling mining sector and ensuing oversupply of labour a good national infrastructure project would be to dig a large moat around Queensland and declaring it an independent nation >:D
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2015, 12:23:31 am »
Quote
people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people.

OK. Let's do an experiment:

Problem: you run a match factory where matches are put into match boxes on a conveyor belt. If the boxes are not fully filled, customers complain and you run the risk of losing your business. So you need to come up with a way to identify and eliminate such boxes.

You have general freedom to come up with whatever solution you think may solve the problem.

The simplest / lowest cost one wins.

State your solution and your degree.

I have a solution and I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, this was a real-life problem.

Here is my solution, after optimization for cost:

Drain the swamp.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2015, 01:40:35 am »
Quote
people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people.

OK. Let's do an experiment:

Problem: you run a match factory where matches are put into match boxes on a conveyor belt. If the boxes are not fully filled, customers complain and you run the risk of losing your business. So you need to come up with a way to identify and eliminate such boxes.

You have general freedom to come up with whatever solution you think may solve the problem.

The simplest / lowest cost one wins.

State your solution and your degree.

I have a solution and I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, this was a real-life problem.

Weigh em on a scale. they should be withing a certain band. this can happen in-line with the production pipe.
the 'weighing' doesn't have to be in the classical sense.  you can have an airstream blowing sideways. if the box is too light it will be blown sideways further than one with the correct weight.

you could even use gravity. simply shoot them off the conveyer at a fixed speed. gravity will do the rest.. put two sorting buckets at different distances.


Degree ? Working toward it :
Currently in my 23rd study year of a 57 year course (assuming i 'graduate' at 65. i started at roughly 8 with the 100-in-one box) in 'been there , done that, got the stack of burned equipment to prove it'  from the 'Real World Design University'

And i already know i will do some post-graduation stuff well beyond that. i'll probably stay in that school until i die.

Anyone who cannot muster that kind of energy should not deserve the title.

As for that piece of paper delivered by certain institutions: every institution has it's own 'rating' system. So you can't really compare.

Let me ask you this : you have a pick between 2 'engineers'
- one has a degree from MIT or Caltech or Stanford.
- the other one from tjiktjikistan school of engineering.  which one will you take ?

It should not make  a difference , but it does...  so degrees are not a real 'measure' as they in themselves are measured against each other.

This bag of 1kilogram sugar is better than that bag of 1 kilogram sugar because it has a fancier wrapper...
Objective measures would be : the actual weight , the purity , the taste and the amount of sand an gravel in it.
In the end you may be better of hiring someone who has built his own refinery ...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 01:50:29 am by free_electron »
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Offline DIPLover

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2015, 01:43:46 am »
Here is my solution, after optimization for cost:

You sir, are awesome. You win the internet for today.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2015, 01:48:01 am »
Quote
people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people.

OK. Let's do an experiment:

Problem: you run a match factory where matches are put into match boxes on a conveyor belt. If the boxes are not fully filled, customers complain and you run the risk of losing your business. So you need to come up with a way to identify and eliminate such boxes.

You have general freedom to come up with whatever solution you think may solve the problem.

The simplest / lowest cost one wins.

State your solution and your degree.

I have a solution and I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, this was a real-life problem.

Hire an assassin to kill off any unhappy customers before they can tell anybody? :-//
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2015, 01:48:47 am »
Quote
people with a degree often have more tools like math and structured approaches to solving problems than the self taught people.

OK. Let's do an experiment:

Problem: you run a match factory where matches are put into match boxes on a conveyor belt. If the boxes are not fully filled, customers complain and you run the risk of losing your business. So you need to come up with a way to identify and eliminate such boxes.

You have general freedom to come up with whatever solution you think may solve the problem.

The simplest / lowest cost one wins.

State your solution and your degree.

I have a solution and I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, this was a real-life problem.

Close your match factory and outsource the making of the matches to some third world country like Bangladesh, India or China where human rights and workplace safety don't matter. The sweatshop labourers can count them manually and their supervisors can do a random sample. The workers get slapped over the head and their meagre pay is docked if there are any matches missing. Lowest cost, maximum profit. The sweatshop factory owner, you and the customers are now all happy >:D.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 01:58:01 am by VK3DRB »
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2015, 01:53:47 am »
matches ? here, let me introduce to something called a 'lighter' , it's state of the art and will revolutionize fire making forever.

Meanwhile some dude wearing a loincloth and a bone through his nose scoffs and goes: white men need complicated shit to make fire. i make fire with two pieces of wood i find. works every time. if white man runs out of matches or gas he no has fire. Me, always fire.

who's the 'smart' guy here ?
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2015, 01:59:53 am »
Another solution:

Assuming the box can only carry 50 matches, fill it to the brim and write on the box,"Contents: 47 matches". No more customer complaints.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2015, 02:10:56 am »
Another solution:

Assuming the box can only carry 50 matches, fill it to the brim and write on the box,"Contents: 47 matches". No more customer complaints.

simply sell them as '1 box of matches'. no weight indicated no count indicated.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2015, 02:22:27 am »
I'd put a condom in every pack of matches. Usually there is a baby-boom after a long power outage.  >:D
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2015, 03:02:56 am »
Another difference between full and non full boxers is the balance (heads are heavier than tails), pass then on and edge and let the full ones (less balanced) fall down.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Would you employ someone without a degree in electronics?
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2015, 05:22:12 am »
Whether electronics or any other field, what you get from hiring someone with a degree - at least from a reputable university - is the knowledge that they have the ability to work hard and persist at something in the pursuit of learning. And to see it through to the finish. If you're lucky they've also absorbed some relevant knowledge and have had the theoretical basis for their field demystified for them.

The last part is an important element of education.  For example someone does not need to remember how to differentiate or integrate an equation to have benefited from calculus.  But by having learned that once they are no longer intimidated or confused with they see dv/dt or discussion of "the area under the curve".

Sure, someone self taught may be just as smart, with just as much or more knowledge and just as hard working, but it will take more effort to determine that.

A degree from a good school just assures a certain base level of knowledge and ability to work hard at something and see it through to the finish. Without a degree you don't know that without good references or by hiring them and seeing how it works out.

 


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