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General => General Chat => Topic started by: suicidaleggroll on October 16, 2017, 01:48:43 pm

Title: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: suicidaleggroll on October 16, 2017, 01:48:43 pm
A serious vulnerability has been found in WPA2, which brings it to the level of WEP (aka: might as well not have any encryption).

https://www.alexhudson.com/2017/10/15/wpa2-broken-krack-now/ (https://www.alexhudson.com/2017/10/15/wpa2-broken-krack-now/)
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/10/severe-flaw-in-wpa2-protocol-leaves-wi-fi-traffic-open-to-eavesdropping/ (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/10/severe-flaw-in-wpa2-protocol-leaves-wi-fi-traffic-open-to-eavesdropping/)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: Vtile on October 16, 2017, 01:52:03 pm
Interesting, thanks for the heads up.

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#internetofshit

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Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: bd139 on October 16, 2017, 01:54:11 pm
Personally speaking, I'm not fussed. I run my WiFI network like a public one. That means all encapsulated protocols are over TLS anyway. This is a minor setback. At worst someone can poison DNS or get themselves attached to my network and eat up all the bandwidth (which is free and unlimited anyway). This is no different to my teenage daughter giving our bloody wifi password out to all her friends and then them all loitering outside my house.

The real killer here is all the wireless infrastructure around. CCTV cameras, street lighting etc. If that uses WPA2 then there's going to be some interesting shit going down shortly :)
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: borjam on October 16, 2017, 02:03:24 pm
No it's not dead at all.

The authoritative information source is this:

https://www.krackattacks.com/#faq (https://www.krackattacks.com/#faq)

As they point out, the flaws can be solved with some changes and they notified vendors in July. Patches are being published now.

And there is a lot of confusion around the issue because the announcement covers several flaws. Not all of them are the same, and networks using AES-CCMP are much less vulnerable than networks using TKIP.

I won't repeat the information, just read the comprehensive Q&A ;)
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: bd139 on October 16, 2017, 02:09:08 pm
Some vendors were notified.
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: IanMacdonald on October 16, 2017, 02:36:19 pm
Personally speaking, I'm not fussed. I run my WiFI network like a public one. That means all encapsulated protocols are over TLS anyway. This is a minor setback.

Krackattack site says. "Although websites or apps may use HTTPS as an additional layer of protection, we warn that this extra protection can (still) be bypassed in a worrying number of situations."

HTTPS is only effective when the data is from one trusted source. As soon as you have other sources in the mix, there is no way of telling if one has been proxied.
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: Kjelt on October 16, 2017, 02:42:16 pm
It is not dead, only need to patch the clients afaik from the paper.
However this needs to be addressed in a new standard (WPA3 ?) so that partly key renegotiation will not be allowed.
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: bd139 on October 16, 2017, 02:45:33 pm
Personally speaking, I'm not fussed. I run my WiFI network like a public one. That means all encapsulated protocols are over TLS anyway. This is a minor setback.

Krackattack site says. "Although websites or apps may use HTTPS as an additional layer of protection, we warn that this extra protection can (still) be bypassed in a worrying number of situations."

HTTPS is only effective when the data is from one trusted source. As soon as you have other sources in the mix, there is no way of telling if one has been proxied.

That's mostly bollocks.
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: suicidaleggroll on October 16, 2017, 03:02:52 pm
My cursory read through this morning suggested that an attacker could obtain the actual network PSK from a compromised client (which would mean that all it would take was a single unpatched client anywhere on the network to compromise the whole thing), but reading through it again I see now that they can only obtain the encryption key for that specific connection.

This means that any unpatched client will have its own connection decrypted and possibly interfered with, but not the rest of the network. Still bad, but not as bad as I originally thought.
Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: borjam on October 16, 2017, 03:04:17 pm
My cursory read through this morning suggested that an attacker could obtain the actual network PSK from a compromised client (which would mean that all it would take was a single unpatched client anywhere on the network to compromise the whole thing), but reading through it again I see now that they can only obtain the encryption key for that specific connection.

This means that any unpatched client will have its own connection decrypted and possibly interfered with, but not the rest of the network. Still bad, but not as bad as I originally thought.
And even that depends on a number of circumstances.

Title: Re: WPA2 is dead
Post by: borjam on October 16, 2017, 03:11:57 pm
It is not dead, only need to patch the clients afaik from the paper.
However this needs to be addressed in a new standard (WPA3 ?) so that partly key renegotiation will not be allowed.
Not really. The specs must be updated, though. Part of the problem, according to the author, is that the specification is incomplete and some details are just written into code.

Curiously, the newest protocol designed for 802.11ad networks is weaker than WPA2 with AES-CCMP.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 16, 2017, 03:36:35 pm
The simplest workaround is wired Ethernet instead of wireless.

Tablets can use a thin USB cable to a hub with a USB network card attached to them.

Run Ethernet to every room and make it easy to plug into.

Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Bud on October 16, 2017, 04:49:36 pm
Thanks for the advice cdev. If you could only make a quick youtube video to make it less useless, i.e a video of yourself cutting drywalls, patching them back, drilling through floor and floor joists and the house outside walls, pulling ethernet wiring through the holes, installing Rj45 outlets and stuff. That would be greatly appreciated.  :)
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Kalvin on October 16, 2017, 05:07:41 pm
Would a VPN/SSH-tunnel from a laptop to the Wifi AP connected to wired LAN/WAN do the trick?**

** Edit: I mean in the office environment. In the open Wifi-hotspot one should always use VPN/SSH-tunneling to a trusted network connection.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: BrianHG on October 16, 2017, 05:20:53 pm
I don't browse directly on my mobile wifi devices.  I currently use TeamViewer on public networks, who claim to encrypt their data, and all web browsing is actually done on my wired home PC instead.  I wonder how secure TeamViewer is since it doesn't use any HTTP at all.  If Team viewer has faulty encryption, maybe I should find better remote desktop app.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: NiHaoMike on October 16, 2017, 05:38:43 pm
drilling through floor and floor joists and the house outside walls
If you route Ethernet cable outdoors, you just made a very easy way to break into the network.
I don't browse directly on my mobile wifi devices.  I currently use TeamViewer on public networks, who claim to encrypt their data, and all web browsing is actually done on my wired home PC instead.  I wonder how secure TeamViewer is since it doesn't use any HTTP at all.  If Team viewer has faulty encryption, maybe I should find better remote desktop app.
Let's hope they actually fixed the issue after their infamous security breach. Are there any independent security reviews to confirm that it actually is secure now?
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: BrianHG on October 16, 2017, 05:47:19 pm
I don't browse directly on my mobile wifi devices.  I currently use TeamViewer on public networks, who claim to encrypt their data, and all web browsing is actually done on my wired home PC instead.  I wonder how secure TeamViewer is since it doesn't use any HTTP at all.  If Team viewer has faulty encryption, maybe I should find better remote desktop app.
Let's hope they actually fixed the issue after their infamous security breach. Are there any independent security reviews to confirm that it actually is secure now?

It looks as if you want that WiFi security, you need to write your own remote viewing app which no one else has, with your own encryption algorithm.  If there are only 1 or 2 users of the app and it is not public, no-one is trying or aware of your security algorithm let alone the method you encode the audio/video/mouse-keyboard events & it wont ever be cracked.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Kalvin on October 16, 2017, 05:57:29 pm
I don't browse directly on my mobile wifi devices.  I currently use TeamViewer on public networks, who claim to encrypt their data, and all web browsing is actually done on my wired home PC instead.  I wonder how secure TeamViewer is since it doesn't use any HTTP at all.  If Team viewer has faulty encryption, maybe I should find better remote desktop app.
Let's hope they actually fixed the issue after their infamous security breach. Are there any independent security reviews to confirm that it actually is secure now?

It looks as if you want that WiFi security, you need to write your own remote viewing app which no one else has, with your own encryption algorithm.  If there are only 1 or 2 users of the app and it is not public, no-one is trying or aware of your security algorithm let alone the method you encode the audio/video/mouse-keyboard events & it wont ever be cracked.

Security through obscurity is not considered safe either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: borjam on October 16, 2017, 07:05:09 pm
It looks as if you want that WiFi security, you need to write your own remote viewing app which no one else has, with your own encryption algorithm.  If there are only 1 or 2 users of the app and it is not public, no-one is trying or aware of your security algorithm let alone the method you encode the audio/video/mouse-keyboard events & it wont ever be cracked.
You would be amazed at what a skilled cryptoanalist can achieve.

So, unless your algoritm is really good...

Many years ago, when using wireless cards without encryption support I used IPSec. But no need to explain how clumsy it was!

Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: IanMacdonald on October 16, 2017, 07:15:49 pm
Security through obscurity is not considered safe either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

If so, the the whole business of patching software is a bad practice. After all, the only reason the unpatched vulns had not been exploited up to now is that they were obscure. WPA2 has been in use for a long time, and at any time during that interval the vuln could have been exploited. Maybe was exploited. Who knows?

The proper answer being to get rid of all software written with compilers prone to these security bugs. Especially C with its unchecked buffer risk.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Gribo on October 16, 2017, 07:30:13 pm
Your alternative 'software' would be punch cards? clay tablets?
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 16, 2017, 07:57:54 pm
A similar huge vulnerability exists in bluetooth, also recently discovered.

Is all of this coincidental?
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 16, 2017, 08:01:21 pm
Sorry, already did it many years ago. Its not the big deal you make it out to be.

Thanks for the advice cdev. If you could only make a quick youtube video to make it less useless, i.e a video of yourself cutting drywalls, patching them back, drilling through floor and floor joists and the house outside walls, pulling ethernet wiring through the holes, installing Rj45 outlets and stuff. That would be greatly appreciated.  :)
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: metrologist on October 16, 2017, 08:22:55 pm
Microsoft has you covered:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/crack-attack/9nblggh3s5v5 (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/crack-attack/9nblggh3s5v5)

Seriously, I'm wondering who supplies the patch for my Windows 10 desktop machines? I think MS would be pushing an update since I believe I'm using the OS application to access the network.  :-//

OK, just found that the Oct 10th update provided the patch. Win7 not supported?
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: MrW0lf on October 16, 2017, 08:45:29 pm
Sorry, already did it many years ago. Its not the big deal you make it out to be.

:-+ Wireless is for kids and housewives who cannot handle tools, men lay copper.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bd139 on October 16, 2017, 08:48:13 pm
My MacBook doesn't have ethernet and I'm not buying a fucking dongle.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: MrW0lf on October 16, 2017, 08:55:13 pm
So reached for apple and now all exposed? There was similar story couple k years ago :P Did not end well.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 16, 2017, 09:05:22 pm
Somehow, I have a feeling the proffered "fix" for everything will be "upgrading" to <SurveillanceOS>.

You can bank on it.

Resistance is futile.
We are Corporation omniscient!

What is wrong with this picture? Nobody wants it, and its being forced on the planet. By "juridicial persons" :

Huge amoral entities nobody really wants or needs either.



Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Kjelt on October 16, 2017, 09:41:45 pm
The proper answer being to get rid of all software written with compilers prone to these security bugs. Especially C with its unchecked buffer risk.
Newer languages with their automatic garbage collectors that fail to destroy the garbage instantaneous after exiting a function, thus exposing valuable security info like keys etc in their garbage that can and already are exploited aren't that much better either  ;)
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2017, 09:59:56 pm
The proper answer being to get rid of all software written with compilers prone to these security bugs. Especially C with its unchecked buffer risk.
Newer languages with their automatic garbage collectors that fail to destroy the garbage instantaneous after exiting a function, thus exposing valuable security info like keys etc in their garbage that can and already are exploited aren't that much better either  ;)
Anyone who thinks there is "an" answer to these security problems really isn't taking the issue seriously. There are so many things that need to be right, all at the same time.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: rdl on October 17, 2017, 12:09:31 am
...
OK, just found that the Oct 10th update provided the patch. Win7 not supported?

I have seen it reported that "Microsoft says" this has been fixed in the October Security Update, but could not find an official announcement. I didn't look all that hard though.

There is a mention of "key changes" to Windows Wireless Networking.

Quote
This security update includes quality improvements. No new operating system features are being introduced in this update. Key changes include:

Security updates to Microsoft Windows Search Component, Windows kernel-mode drivers, Microsoft Graphics Component, Internet Explorer, Windows kernel, Windows Wireless Networking, Microsoft JET Database Engine, and the Windows SMB Server.



https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4041678/windows-7-update-kb4041678







Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: helius on October 17, 2017, 12:21:19 am
Newer languages with their automatic garbage collectors that fail to destroy the garbage instantaneous after exiting a function, thus exposing valuable security info like keys etc in their garbage that can and already are exploited aren't that much better either  ;)
Manual memory management doesn't "destroy" deallocated objects. They are simply added back to the freelist, which is why UAF and double-free bugs continue to exist. There are also some forms of GC that promptly release garbage (generally by using a reference counting + tracing scheme) so this is a really inapt comparison.

The KRACK vulnerability could exist in any language, as it is a protocol vulnerability, nothing to do with unsafe memory access. Systems for verifying protocol properties (something like SPIN, ACL2, or a modern equivalent) are needed.
Title: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: timb on October 17, 2017, 02:06:10 am
Thanks for the advice cdev. If you could only make a quick youtube video to make it less useless, i.e a video of yourself cutting drywalls, patching them back, drilling through floor and floor joists and the house outside walls, pulling ethernet wiring through the holes, installing Rj45 outlets and stuff. That would be greatly appreciated.  [emoji4]

When I was 20, the small town I lived in had just gotten affordable high speed Internet (20Mbit, in 2004) and, being the enterprising young man that I was, decided to do “whole home internet” installations for people one summer, to make extra money.

Basically, I oversaw the high speed cable internet installation, setup the modem, router and an AP, plus I ran CAT5 for hardwired Internet to rooms as needed.

Holy. Fucking. Shit. People don’t realize just how much work is involved in wiring a house properly. You have to crawl under spider infested houses, into 120 degree attics, through 2ft wide crawl spaces... Plus all the prep needed to find out where studs and existing wiring is, cutting drywall, using fish tape to pull cable through chases, not to mention old houses with original baseboard you couldn’t drill through and plaster walls you couldn’t cut into.

I made good money, but I wouldn’t do it again. I honestly don’t know how HVAC guys do it day in and day out.

Anyway, one house I did, the cable guy (a subcontractor, apparently) came out to run the coax from the pole and into the house. Apparently, this guy was afraid of spiders, so instead of running the coax under the house and drilling up through the floor, he *stapled* the coax to the front of this woman’s house. Into her vinyl siding, just below shrub level. Then he drilled a hole through the vinyl and into the wall, drilling straight through a stud. All so he wouldn’t have to crawl under the house. Needless to say he was fired and the cable company ended up having to replace the vinyl siding on the entire house, since it was 20 years old and no direct, matching replacement was available. They ended up paying me to run the cable line under the house.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Old Don on October 17, 2017, 03:49:26 am
The simplest workaround is wired Ethernet instead of wireless.

Tablets can use a thin USB cable to a hub with a USB network card attached to them.

Run Ethernet to every room and make it easy to plug into.

I had a law firm client and that's pretty much exactly what I told them. No WiFi, no surfing for porn, hardwired Ethernet only and to make sure their router didn't respond to pings. Told them that would keep all but the most interested hackers, other than the government, out.   :-//
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 17, 2017, 05:10:07 am
Going to have to update my Unifi AP, and probably should do the controller software for good measure.

This is why I don't put everything on wireless if it does not have to be. I knew it was a matter of time till some big vulnerability is found.  Wireless is never going to be as secure as wired.  I have my wifi on a separate vlan so even if someone hacks it, they won't be able to do much.  I can even unplug it till I get around to updating it and the only thing that it will affect is my phone.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 17, 2017, 05:21:10 am
Newer languages with their automatic garbage collectors that fail to destroy the garbage instantaneous after exiting a function, thus exposing valuable security info like keys etc in their garbage that can and already are exploited aren't that much better either  ;)
Manual memory management doesn't "destroy" deallocated objects. They are simply added back to the freelist, which is why UAF and double-free bugs continue to exist. There are also some forms of GC that promptly release garbage (generally by using a reference counting + tracing scheme) so this is a really inapt comparison.

The KRACK vulnerability could exist in any language, as it is a protocol vulnerability, nothing to do with unsafe memory access. Systems for verifying protocol properties (something like SPIN, ACL2, or a modern equivalent) are needed.


Hmm it's never even occurred to me that stuff can remain in memory and potentially be exploited that way, what is the best way to deal with that, is it as simple as just overwriting the variable with new data, or does that not necessarily guarantee it will be written to the same memory location?  In the case of a more advanced type like a string I imagine it's also more involved. (let's just assume C++ here)  I guess if your data structure is custom made and uses pointers then you have more control over that. 

Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: rdl on October 17, 2017, 05:39:48 am
Sort of a storage drive then, where deleted files are actually still there until overwritten.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: helius on October 17, 2017, 06:17:13 am
There are three types of memory where stale values can leak secrets: registers, stacks, and heaps. I think the mitigations for each one are going to be different. The values in registers don't necessarily stay there, because interrupts will copy them all to RAM and they can hang around for a long time that way. Some solutions are architectural: for instance, stack machines don't leak secrets through registers (aren't any) or the stack (because it is always fresh storage by design).
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: IanMacdonald on October 17, 2017, 08:09:18 am
The proper answer being to get rid of all software written with compilers prone to these security bugs. Especially C with its unchecked buffer risk.
Newer languages with their automatic garbage collectors that fail to destroy the garbage instantaneous after exiting a function, thus exposing valuable security info like keys etc in their garbage that can and already are exploited aren't that much better either  ;)
Anyone who thinks there is "an" answer to these security problems really isn't taking the issue seriously. There are so many things that need to be right, all at the same time.

Nobody says there is one answer; just that a high proportion of vulns all result from the same few weaknesses. Mostly these weaknesses are of the type where a trivial mistake by a coder creates a vuln, where the risk arises many times in the code, and where there is no direct way check for such mistakes since the code will appear to function correctly regardless of them.

Some lessons should be taken from the aviation industry over this: You don't design a plane such that no-one can check that the control linkages are correctly connected. Instead you try to design it so that any mistake like that will be obvious to the pilot.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bd139 on October 17, 2017, 08:12:14 am
Just from a technical point of view, this vulnerability is because the protocol state machine wasn’t documented properly or formally tested. This is because of a bad spec not a bad implementation.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: stj on October 17, 2017, 10:38:42 am
I don't browse directly on my mobile wifi devices.  I currently use TeamViewer on public networks

well you shouldnt.
read the license agreement on it - i did.
i then promply deleted it and refused to use it to connect to other people.
use a VNC variant if you need that type of thing.

incase you cant be bothered to read the ass-rape aggreement, i'll give you a taste.
"teamview" researves the right to monitor or log any usage of the network.

there you go.
be aware that teamview is NOT point-2-point, it runs through the company servers as a proxy.
that is also mentioned in the license to abuse.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 17, 2017, 10:17:29 pm
Yeah I would not trust anything like Teamviewer as it's relying on a middle server to work. But also if you use VNC, don't just port forward it, you should use VPN.  Even then, you should also use some kind of port triggering so the VPN port is only open to your IP and not just leave it wide open.  Remember Heartbleed? :P
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: stj on October 17, 2017, 10:28:09 pm
and - it's raining a storm today - a vulnerability storm!!

https://thehackernews.com/2017/10/rsa-encryption-keys.html
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Kjelt on October 18, 2017, 09:51:15 am
Blackhat conference is coming so the new papers get published  :)
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bd139 on October 18, 2017, 10:08:21 am
So yesterday...  got the desktop PC out, wired it with Ethernet, then installed freebsd. now today ... snipping the network cable and lining the walls with foil and battening down the windows!  :-DD
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: borjam on October 18, 2017, 10:21:17 am
So yesterday...  got the desktop PC out, wired it with Ethernet, then installed freebsd.
Great (trusting FreeBSD since 1995!) but it was also affected by the WPA vulnerability, just like everyone else!  |O |O
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bd139 on October 18, 2017, 10:44:49 am
It was indeed. But my desktop has no WiFi card in it :)
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: stj on October 18, 2017, 12:40:17 pm
i remove wifi/BT cards from all the laptops i handle.
and the camera's & mic's

it's a habit i caught from doing it for a company once.
if you cant 100% trust the bios, chipset(with intel armcore in it!!) or o.s., then you just make it blind and unable to communicate!  :box:
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 18, 2017, 02:18:24 pm
and - it's raining a storm today - a vulnerability storm!!

https://thehackernews.com/2017/10/rsa-encryption-keys.html
 :popcorn:


Note that some people have known about it for (at least) FIVE YEARS.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Marco on October 18, 2017, 02:47:44 pm
Newer languages with their automatic garbage collectors that fail to destroy the garbage instantaneous after exiting a function, thus exposing valuable security info like keys etc in their garbage that can and already are exploited aren't that much better either  ;)

What exactly do you think the problem with this is? Even if there is a bug in the compiler/runtime to allow the program to access the heap it doesn't matter, the process just leaks data to itself. If another process can access its heap you're screwed regardless. Conceivably a language which used it's stronger guarantees to isolate programs within a single process space would expose data when a bug allows a program to access the heap I guess.

C++ delete doesn't zero out data by the way and with some memory fragmentation of the heap the data could live quite long ... if something needs to be zero'd ASAP you'll have to do it yourself regardless of the language.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bd139 on October 18, 2017, 03:00:19 pm
Exactly. How to do this in common languages:

C#: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.security.securestring%28v=vs.110%29.aspx (neat little abstraction that uses pinned memory)

Java: Use char[] and do an Array.fill on it afterwards when you're done.

And the non GC'ed:

C: write over the char[] with '0'

C++: same as C
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Kjelt on October 18, 2017, 03:14:51 pm
Correct you have to erase/delete/overwrite security related information fields the moment you are done with it the first time, you recalculate it again if you need it later on. That is exactly what newbies forget when they rely on the garbage collector.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Marco on October 18, 2017, 04:28:18 pm
A GC'd language is far less likely to allow access to the heap though (it takes a bug in the compiler/runtime). So that's still better than delete in C++.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bd139 on October 18, 2017, 04:39:46 pm
Good point there. The VM the language runs in is usually "as tight as a duck's ass".
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: helius on October 18, 2017, 07:51:08 pm
Good point there. The VM the language runs in is usually "as tight as a duck's ass".
Not the case for the Adobe Flash VM. Operating system security was also a "solved problem" back in the 1970s with microkernels, but that doesn't mean there haven't been holes in any OS since. Performance always trumps security.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Halcyon on October 19, 2017, 03:17:13 am
We were looking at this vulnerability at work last week. Thankfully many manufacturers are releasing patches.

As of 16/10/2017, Ubiquiti has issued a fix for its devices.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: rdl on October 19, 2017, 03:37:15 am
My wireless router is Rosewill brand. It cost less than $20 and is at least 5 years old. I doubt there's any point in even looking for a patch.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: retiredcaps on October 19, 2017, 03:48:56 am
My wireless router is Rosewill brand. It cost less than $20 and is at least 5 years old. I doubt there's any point in even looking for a patch.
Possible LEDE code for two Rosewill models.  LEDE 17.01.4 has the patch for this Krack vulnerability.  I'm running LEDE 17.01.4 as of today on a router that I got for free because it was deemed too old.

lede-project.org/toh/start?dataflt%5BBrand*~%5D=rosewill
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: helius on October 19, 2017, 05:08:12 am
It's important to reiterate that although routers can be patched to mitigate the way this exploit is used, it is actually a client vulnerability. Patch your client devices.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Halcyon on October 19, 2017, 07:16:11 am
It's important to reiterate that although routers can be patched to mitigate the way this exploit is used, it is actually a client vulnerability. Patch your client devices.

Absolutely but in more cases than not, this is not possible. I use around 9 wireless devices at home. Even my current Android smart phone is considered end-of-life and has been superseded with 2 newer models, so software updates are no longer being pushed to it over the air.

A few of them are old legacy laptops which haven't had driver updates for many, many years.

As for the rest of them, well, I'm at the mercy of the companies who designed them. Maybe they'll patch them, maybe they won't.

I use EAP on my Wi-Fi network at home so the issue isn't so much of a problem and on those "legacy" devices which don't support EAP, they are walled-in to a severely locked down part of my network.

That's where the biggest concern is surrounding this whole exploit, is those millions and millions of devices (think IoT) still in use which won't get an update. It's really not an issue for current hardware.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: borjam on October 19, 2017, 07:51:46 am
Despite the serious problems caused by stack/heap overflows, etc, this bug is much subtler and it's mostly an issue with the specification.

Fortunately it's not that the specification is wrong, the protocol is fine and it's been formally verified. It's just that the specification is incomplete.

Yesterday I came up for an example for a service note we sent to our customers. I'm sharing it here trying to clarify.

Imagine that someone pays you with a check. You have never seen one, so you are told to go to the bank in order to cash it. Banks, of course, are required to pay the check holder as long as the signature is valid and the account has enough funds.

So, we have a check paying protocol.
    "Go to the bank, hand your check to the clerk and wait for your money".


Now, imagine that someone comes with a way to make perfect copies of a check. So, let's say two persons go to the bank with perfect
copies of the check. The bank clerks execute the check paying protocol, with the end result that two different persons have just cashed in the same check.

This is a problem, obviously, so someone notices that there is a vulnerability in the way checks are handled.

Let's look at it in more detail. We have a simple prototol for cashing checks. "Hand your check to the clerk and wait for your money".
Along with this protocol, the bank does some amount of internal processing. But that's not necessarily written down in the standards
for handling checks because it can be more or less obvious and, of course, different banks might have different internal procedures. In order to ease interoperability it's often advisable not to specify in more detail than needed.

So how are banks handling the check in our simple, vulnerable example?

     Internal procedure (vulnerable)
         Clerk receives check
         Clerk verifies signature
         Clerk checks account
         If there are enough funds, withdraws and pays to the check holder.

But we said there is a security problem in that internal procedure. So we fix it adding an extra step. If the check can be cashed
(signature was correct and there are funds) you add an additional verification: was that check number cashed already? If it was
not, you add a note to the customer's account stating that "check number XXXXXXX has been cashed" and you pay the holder. Now
you have a protection against duplicates.

As a second measure against this kind of problem, some body governing the banking industry updates it's guidelines/standards for
check handling, stating that checks are numbered and the check numbers should be verified.

Pretty obvious, it's a very silly example. But the purpose is to show how is it possible to say that the WPA2 protocol doesn't need to
be changed (the protocol that describes how to cash a check in the bank hasn't been altered, the holder does exactly the same) and only
the internal procedures have been changes.

What has happened with WPA2 is roughly the same. Some internal processing was too lenient. And it's not necessarily a case of sheer
sloppiness, but most probably being cautious
. When dealing with standards and multiple manufacturers you have to be extremely careful about adding extra checks because you might end up with serious interoperability problems. Unless those checks are not specified in the standard you can't make some assumptions. Moreover, wireless networks are tricky. There are errors and retransmissions.

So, probably the WPA2 standard will be updated. According to the author of the discovery it should be, and I agree of course. The protocol itself won't change. Just the internal processing.

Hope it helps clarify the nature of this problem. Sorry if the example is too silly, but in this case the real problem lies in the boundary between regulated and unregulated behavior in communication standards.

Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Halcyon on October 19, 2017, 08:02:18 am
Would a solution simply be that if a client "doesn't receive" the third unencrypted message (due to outside interference/tampering), rather than the access point replaying that message, abandon the connection attempt, disassociate the client, don't reset the counter and carry on as if it were a new connection?
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 19, 2017, 11:00:30 pm
Without wifi?

Would a solution simply be that if a client "doesn't receive" the third unencrypted message (due to outside interference/tampering), rather than the access point replaying that message, abandon the connection attempt, disassociate the client, don't reset the counter and carry on as if it were a new connection?
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 21, 2017, 12:52:49 am
Updated my Unifi AP last night.  What makes this vulnerability extra bad though is that the clients need to be patched too, and as an admin you don't have full control over who is connecting to the network, so need a way to vet devices and make sure they too are patched. 
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Kjelt on October 21, 2017, 07:52:25 am
Hmmm I thought only clients needed to be updated.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Monkeh on October 22, 2017, 04:26:40 am
Hmmm I thought only clients needed to be updated.

No, there are multiple bugs. Clients have more of them, and are more affected, but the AP side is also a target.

Client patches are rolling out - my old Kindle Fire HD (2013!) just got updated - not just fixing Krack, but sneakily fixing a bug preventing it from connecting to any 802.11w enabled (even if optional) network. But wait, there's more! It actually implemented working 802.11w. On Android 4.4. Whoever put that through earned a beer or other beverage of their choice.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 22, 2017, 02:03:55 pm
Is there any central list of AP and client devices subject to the Krack vulnerability and the state of patches for them? It seems to me that all devices currently being sold - or which were recently sold should get patched.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bitwelder on October 22, 2017, 02:14:58 pm
Is there any central list of AP and client devices subject to the Krack vulnerability and the state of patches for them? It seems to me that all devices currently being sold - or which were recently sold should get patched.
So far, this is the the best page I found that collects all the vendor info and patch releases:
https://github.com/kristate/krackinfo
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: borjam on October 22, 2017, 08:32:43 pm
No, there are multiple bugs. Clients have more of them, and are more affected, but the AP side is also a target.
Quoting from https://www.krackattacks.com/#faq (https://www.krackattacks.com/#faq) which is the authoritative source:

"What if there are no security updates for my router?

Our main attack is against the 4-way handshake, and does not exploit access points, but instead targets clients. So it might be that your router does not require security updates. We strongly advise you to contact your vendor for more details. In general though, you can try to mitigate attacks against routers and access points by disabling client functionality (which is for example used in repeater modes) and disabling 802.11r (fast roaming). For ordinary home users, your priority should be updating clients such as laptops and smartphones."

Which means: unless you are using client functionalities in your APs (802.11r fast roaming or WDS) the attacks described in that paper won't work against the AP. The main priority is to patch clients.

They say that they are working on possible modifications to the behavior of the APs so that they can somewhat protect clients, but that's tricky and it can lead to incompatibilities.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bitseeker on October 23, 2017, 11:28:31 pm
Well, I guess it's time to install a community version of Android to keep using devices that aren't officially getting updates anymore.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: retiredcaps on October 24, 2017, 12:43:49 am
Well, I guess it's time to install a community version of Android to keep using devices that aren't officially getting updates anymore.
I just did that for 3 of my tablets at home using lineageos.

https://download.lineageos.org/

I checked the release notes to make sure they had the patch before installing.

Obviously, not all Android devices are supported.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bitseeker on October 24, 2017, 04:13:32 am
Yeah, not all, but still quite a lot. I wish they had the 2012 Nexus 7.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Monkeh on October 24, 2017, 04:19:01 am
There is an unofficial build for that over at XDA.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: retiredcaps on October 24, 2017, 05:20:30 am
I wish they had the 2012 Nexus 7.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/nexus-7/development/rom-android-7-aosp-grouper-t3467514

says

Latest Changes
20171018 (AOSP 7.1.2)
further performance optimizations
intelliplug disabled again
KRACK-attack fixes

BTW, one of my tablets is a Nexus 7 2013 running 14.1 lineageos with the KRACK patches.

Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bitseeker on October 24, 2017, 06:22:51 am
Thanks, Monkeh and retiredcaps!
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: stj on October 24, 2017, 12:07:08 pm
this is where people learn never to buy android devices with an intel cpu.
Intel locked the bootloaders down so tight that there is no custom firmware for them - you can consider them disposeable.

unfortunatly i speak from experience - i have both a useless fone, and a useless tablet - thanks to intel for being scum and asus for using their cpu's  :rant:
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Naguissa on October 24, 2017, 08:37:03 pm
this is where people learn never to buy android devices with an intel cpu.
Intel locked the bootloaders down so tight that there is no custom firmware for them - you can consider them disposeable.

unfortunatly i speak from experience - i have both a useless fone, and a useless tablet - thanks to intel for being scum and asus for using their cpu's  :rant:
I have a Cube iWork 7, an Intel tablet.

 Originally was Android/Win10 dual boot.

Then I wiped Android and reinstalled Win10 on full NAND.

Then I installed Debian in a USB using OTG port.

Then USB port died and next touch also died.


Now I have a to-try-repair tablet.

But until HW failures it was letting me change everything except 1st dual boot screen (i didn't tried it).

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 24, 2017, 08:54:45 pm
this is where people learn never to buy android devices with an intel cpu.
Intel locked the bootloaders down so tight that there is no custom firmware for them - you can consider them disposeable.

unfortunatly i speak from experience - i have both a useless fone, and a useless tablet - thanks to intel for being scum and asus for using their cpu's  :rant:
Unfortunately, it's far from the only platform this happens to. Software support is terrible on a lot of mobile devices.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: metrologist on October 25, 2017, 01:36:58 pm
is there any mobile device with reliable software support. I think they are all designed to be disposable with a 3-5 year max life. I won't be buying any more and my next phone will probably not be a smart phone, or the cheapest possible phone that is usable as an actual phone.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: borjam on October 25, 2017, 01:40:14 pm
is there any mobile device with reliable software support. I think they are all designed to be disposable with a 3-5 year max life. I won't be buying any more and my next phone will probably not be a smart phone, or the cheapest possible phone that is usable as an actual phone.

My iPhone 4S was released in 2011 and the last software update was issued in 2016.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: IanMacdonald on October 25, 2017, 03:13:04 pm
In view of the massive amount of work to actually deal with it, it would actually be useful to know how large an attack surface this vuln exposes.

Many of the man-in-the-middle classes of vuln are more of a theoretical risk than one which is often encountered in the real world. Though, WiFi is more prone to this class of attack than wired connections, simply by nature of the fact that an attacker can connect without gaining physical access to the hardware, or sometimes even the premises.

Not yet seen any lowdown on this. Is it feasible for anyone other than an expert hacker to exploit it in the public sphere?  Would this only be possible in some circumstances, or in all? How long would such an attack take? :-//

One of the key problems I foresee, is that upgrading router firmware often involves the loss of all settings. In which case it can't be done remotely, and might involve a lot of manual work reinstating the settings if the site has services on it.  Not just for WiFi but for all router functions too.

Point of fact, this debacle strongly suggests the use of standalone WiFi APs. Integrating them into routers creates a domino effect outage. At least I'm on separate units here so I can just chuck the (fairly old) AP away if I need to.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: suicidaleggroll on October 25, 2017, 03:20:23 pm
In view of the massive amount of work to actually deal with it, it would actually be useful to know how large an attack surface this vuln exposes.

Many of the man-in-the-middle classes of vuln are more of a theoretical risk than one which is often encountered in the real world. Though, WiFi is more prone to this class of attack than wired connections, simply by nature of the fact that an attacker can connect without gaining physical access to the hardware, or sometimes even the premises.

Not yet seen any lowdown on this. Is it feasible for anyone other than an expert hacker to exploit it in the public sphere?  Would this only be possible in some circumstances, or in all? How long would such an attack take? :-//
From what I understand, using this attack to break the encryption on a WPA2 link is quite easy and quick.  If there isn't already, I'm sure soon there will be a tool to do it for you, and script kiddies will just have to click a button to watch your wifi traffic unencrypted.


One of the key problems I foresee, is that upgrading router firmware often involves the loss of all settings. In which case it can't be done remotely, and might involve a lot of manual work reinstating the settings if the site has services on it.  Not just for WiFi but for all router functions too.

Point of fact, this debacle strongly suggests the use of standalone WiFi APs. Integrating them into routers creates a domino effect outage. At least I'm on separate units here so I can just chuck the (fairly old) AP away if I need to.
That wouldn't do anything, unfortunately.  The clients are the targets in this attack, there's not a thing your router or AP can do to stop it.  Upgrade your router firmware, don't, it doesn't matter, unless your client device is upgraded, it's vulnerable.  That's the problem with this vulnerability, you can't patch it in a central location, every single client has to be individually patched or it's vulnerable.  Since many people still use laptops, phones, tablets, IoT devices, etc. that can't or won't be upgraded, they'll be permanently left in a vulnerable state until they're trashed and replaced.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: IanMacdonald on October 25, 2017, 04:49:26 pm
Your alternative 'software' would be punch cards? clay tablets?

Not the media that's the issue. The method of allocating RAM to program variables is the problem. C and C++ have a security weakness in this respect. Even the 1950's and 60's languages like COBOL and Fortran used with punched cards didn't have this vuln.

(I believe it's possible to deliberately create a similar scenario in Fortran, but it would be extremely unlikely to happen through coder error. Whereas in C it's ridiculously easy.)

The problem with fixing this, is that C has become so entrenched in the software industry that it's hard to give it the heave-ho the that it needs. Not just Microsoft either, Much of Linux and MacOS is written in it.

Even if the coders started using another language rightaway, the DLLs and other system libraries are still vulnerable to over-long data strings passed to them from userspace programs. So whatever, it's gonna take a long time to purge this stuff.

The prime time for Microsoft to have tackled it was when Longhorn (Vista/7) came out. They really missed an opportunity there.

I don't think the WPA2 issue is down-to this problem with C, but the vast majority of vulns have been.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Monkeh on October 25, 2017, 05:04:20 pm
That wouldn't do anything, unfortunately.  The clients are the targets in this attack, there's not a thing your router or AP can do to stop it.

Not so. It can be largely mitigated (with potential reliability issues) by disabling retransmission of the handshake at the AP.

Not 100% perfect, and carries some issues, but it is possible to significantly hamper exploitation from the AP.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Naguissa on October 26, 2017, 04:53:15 am
is there any mobile device with reliable software support. I think they are all designed to be disposable with a 3-5 year max life. I won't be buying any more and my next phone will probably not be a smart phone, or the cheapest possible phone that is usable as an actual phone.
Sailfish. This is a 2013 phone and this month I recieved an opt-in RC release and final upgrade release.

But it's a tiny company, could disappear tomorrow....

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 27, 2017, 10:02:06 am
is there any mobile device with reliable software support. I think they are all designed to be disposable with a 3-5 year max life. I won't be buying any more and my next phone will probably not be a smart phone, or the cheapest possible phone that is usable as an actual phone.
It's even worse. Some devices get dropped from support while still being sold, only months after release. It's one area I feel lawmakers could make a change for the better. It's better for the consumer and better for the environment to ensure updates somehow.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: bd139 on October 27, 2017, 10:10:23 am
This is annoying me as well.

I'm going to be honest, even as a professional software dude, I've had enough of it. Next hardware refresh I do is going to be a desktop PC running Linux hard wired by ethernet and a Nokia dumbphone or something. I don't have the time to even think about all the crap that comes around keeping everything else's plates spinning.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: cdev on October 29, 2017, 01:44:47 am
For various technical international reasons everything from now on will be deregulation.

(In other words, letting corporations do what they want, more.) the most profitable changes get priority over the slightly more profitable changes That ratchet on laws so to speak is basically being locked in in all sorts of areas. Any regulatory change thats insanely profitable is likely safe.


It's even worse. Some devices get dropped from support while still being sold, only months after release. It's one area I feel lawmakers could make a change for the better. It's better for the consumer and better for the environment to ensure updates somehow.

They are way way ahead of us on this stuff. They have every angle figured out.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Halcyon on October 29, 2017, 08:24:30 pm
It's even worse. Some devices get dropped from support while still being sold, only months after release. It's one area I feel lawmakers could make a change for the better. It's better for the consumer and better for the environment to ensure updates somehow.

I guess it's only a matter of time before people put this to the test through Government organisations such as the ACCC or Fair Trading, or through the courts.

Under Australian Consumer Law, a product has to be "reasonably durable" and "free from defects". If such a major flaw was discovered it would arguably be considered a "major failure" under the law (in that you wouldn't have purchased the product in the first place if you had known about the defect) in which case, the consumer would be entitled to a full refund. There is nothing in the law that says the "defect" has to be a physical breakdown, so it can be something intangible like software/firmware.

If consumers started asserting their consumer rights, instead of issuing refunds for products, manufacturers would be forced to provide remedies even on older and out-of-warranty products.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 29, 2017, 09:21:18 pm
This is annoying me as well.

I'm going to be honest, even as a professional software dude, I've had enough of it. Next hardware refresh I do is going to be a desktop PC running Linux hard wired by ethernet and a Nokia dumbphone or something. I don't have the time to even think about all the crap that comes around keeping everything else's plates spinning.
I don't think you will prevent problems. You'll just have different problems.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 29, 2017, 09:26:25 pm
I guess it's only a matter of time before people put this to the test through Government organisations such as the ACCC or Fair Trading, or through the courts.

Under Australian Consumer Law, a product has to be "reasonably durable" and "free from defects". If such a major flaw was discovered it would arguably be considered a "major failure" under the law (in that you wouldn't have purchased the product in the first place if you had known about the defect) in which case, the consumer would be entitled to a full refund. There is nothing in the law that says the "defect" has to be a physical breakdown, so it can be something intangible like software/firmware.

If consumers started asserting their consumer rights, instead of issuing refunds for products, manufacturers would be forced to provide remedies even on older and out-of-warranty products.
This is true. Hardware defects have been covered well by warranty laws, but software is a bit more hazy, simply because it's not tested in court yet. Unfortunately, consumers are generally divided and it's easy for manufacturers to use this to their advantage, especially since most people would rather have a shiny new phone than support for their old device.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Halcyon on October 29, 2017, 11:32:00 pm
Unfortunately, consumers are generally divided and it's easy for manufacturers to use this to their advantage, especially since most people would rather have a shiny new phone than support for their old device.

True for some products, however consider something like my expensive TV mounted on my wall. Granted it's not exactly communicating sensitive or private information over the network but that's beside the point. One would reasonably expect a costly TV to last 7-10 years. So if my TV has a software glitch and is only a few years old, despite it being superseded by a newer model, the manufacturer should be fixing the problem, otherwise, they can either give me my money back or replace it with a new one.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 29, 2017, 11:35:26 pm
True for some products, however consider something like my expensive TV mounted on my wall. Granted it's not exactly communicating sensitive or private information over the network but that's beside the point. One would reasonably expect a costly TV to last 7-10 years. So if my TV has a software glitch and is only a few years old, despite it being superseded by a newer model, the manufacturer should be fixing the problem, otherwise, they can either give me my money back or replace it with a new one.
Well, smart TVs have shown us the opposite. Sometimes manufacturers just drop support on "older" models, leaving the user with a very hampered device. That's happened a few time in the past before, sometimes to the point they're barely or not usable.

Obviously, anything "smart" need to be supplied with proper and regular software updates, but that rarely is the case.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: TheSteve on October 29, 2017, 11:44:22 pm
So if you have a bunch of devices on your Wifi network and one of them is not updated can a third party monitor all traffic on the network or just traffic to/from the unpatched device?
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: suicidaleggroll on October 29, 2017, 11:46:10 pm
So if you have a bunch of devices on your Wifi network and one of them is not updated can a third party monitor all traffic on the network or just traffic to/from the unpatched device?

Just the affected device.  The vulnerability does not let the attacker retrieve the PSK for the network, only the unique encryption key for that one connection.
Title: Re: WPA2 vulnerability exposed
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 29, 2017, 11:50:07 pm
Thats the whole idea behind these "smart" closed devices.
Please substantiate your claim :)