Author Topic: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)  (Read 3396 times)

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Offline Ian.M

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WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« on: April 10, 2020, 01:46:33 am »
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/09/frenchman_ejected_fighter_jet_retirement_jolly/

I don't normally post click-bait links, but this one is unbelievable!
 
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Offline lowimpedance

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2020, 01:59:49 am »
 :o :wtf:  , I wanna see the Go Pro footage.  :-DD
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline magic

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2020, 05:31:07 am »
Quote
The Rafale-B's command ejection system is meant to fire both seats if one of the crew pulls the handle. A very confused pilot, however, was still sitting in his newly canopy-free Rafale wondering what the hell had just happened.
Another fail from the ground crew ;D
 

Online andy3055

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2020, 05:47:46 am »
At least he got the full experience including ejecting!
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2020, 07:25:36 am »
At least he got the full experience including ejecting!
Probably not the experience you want to have. I talked to a pilot who had to eject from his MIG-29, due to an engine fire. He became 3 cm sorter, his spine was affected. Spinal hernia, and he can never fly again in a jet.

The guy clearly had a bad experience, and wasn't prepared properly. The pilot didn't ease him into the flying, but practically tortured him with the high G forces. The lack of professionalism is just baffling for anyone involved in this incident.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2020, 01:01:12 pm »
At least he got the full experience including ejecting!

Exactly! ;D
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2020, 02:53:11 pm »
At least he got the full experience including ejecting!
Probably not the experience you want to have. I talked to a pilot who had to eject from his MIG-29, due to an engine fire. He became 3 cm sorter, his spine was affected. Spinal hernia, and he can never fly again in a jet.

I believe modern ejection seats are much more safe, through there is always risks

here's a very interesting story of a pilot that had to eject because of a broken landing gear,

https://youtu.be/Hz4vKMsUvpE (turn on CCs if you don't speak Danish)

 

Offline MT

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2020, 03:39:08 pm »
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/09/frenchman_ejected_fighter_jet_retirement_jolly/

I don't normally post click-bait links, but this one is unbelievable!
Stunning lack of professionalism the whole thing! Bunch of ass clowns.
 

Offline jogri

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2020, 06:24:14 pm »
I think one of the worst moments for the pilot was getting out of his seat after he landed: If the ejector seat goes off while you're strapped in you are relatively safe, but it could be rather nasty if it goes off while you are removing your seat straps.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2020, 07:44:04 pm »
 Rather nasty is putting it mildly - especially if you are half out of the cockpit when it goes off.

That was a whole lot of just wrong, starting with the work colleagues who badgered him to do it when it seems fairly obvious he didn't want to. And not having the g-suit on properly, and not strapped in properly - even if he didn't pull the eject handle, flying a high performance profile he could have been seriously injured had the flight been completed normally.

I'm torn over what I would do - I'm not a fan of roller coasters and I don't think I would handle the high G very well, but on the other hand, I would love to fly in something like that - I've flown in small planes and really loved it. But a Cessna 172's not going to pull 5 G's. Not and stay flying. We have a big air show here every year, well, combined air and ground WWII thing, re-enactors in with trucks, tanks, and Jeeps, plus flying examples of all sorts of aircraft. Still want to ride the B17 or B29, but the local museum that sponsors this also has a trainer biplane they give rides in - half of me wants to do it, and half of me thinks I would be scared to death. Word has it that the usual pilot will give you as much as you can take, within the limits of the aircraft. So if I don;t want to do any loops, he won't, but some people ask for the full experience, and they will oblige.
 

Online shakalnokturn

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2020, 11:44:39 pm »
I think one of the worst moments for the pilot was getting out of his seat after he landed: If the ejector seat goes off while you're strapped in you are relatively safe, but it could be rather nasty if it goes off while you are removing your seat straps.

It's a shame it didn't go off at that point, it would have been a bit of a lesson for him after inflicting that flight on his passenger.
Those idiots (different air base) are flying over me daily, if I catch an ejected one in my garden he'll be getting my best sympathy for his kind.
I must think of getting a heavy dog just in case...
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2020, 12:28:48 am »
I think one of the worst moments for the pilot was getting out of his seat after he landed: If the ejector seat goes off while you're strapped in you are relatively safe, but it could be rather nasty if it goes off while you are removing your seat straps.

It's a shame it didn't go off at that point, it would have been a bit of a lesson for him after inflicting that flight on his passenger.
Those idiots (different air base) are flying over me daily, if I catch an ejected one in my garden he'll be getting my best sympathy for his kind.
I must think of getting a heavy dog just in case...

yeh, fuck them for doing their job ....
 

Online shakalnokturn

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2020, 12:38:16 pm »
I'm sure they enjoy their job, just I don't enjoy them doing their job.
Now having a couple of hints on how seriously the elite are doing their job over our heads, yes F... them!
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2020, 05:14:02 pm »
I'm sure they enjoy their job, just I don't enjoy them doing their job.
Now having a couple of hints on how seriously the elite are doing their job over our heads, yes F... them!

Thanks for the post.  I enjoyed the story.

I liked this video on Taffy Holden


I had a brother in USN during this time.  Learn or Burn, USS Forrestal
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2020, 05:49:38 pm »
Yeah, anyway. Hats off to the pilot. Managing to land safely in that context is amazing.

I've read the BEA report.

A number of things to consider, but I'll sum up the main root cause: the passenger had a medical examination a few hours before the flight, and it followed he got a medical restriction to +3G. Unfortunately, it appeared that this restriction was NOT communicated to the pilot. Whereas he had planned on having a "cooler" flight than usual, just because there was a civilian passenger, he wasn't aware of the +3G restriction, so during the initial climb - which he didn't adapt, because he had no reason to - they were subjected to ~+4G. The report states that the hypothesis of the passenger passing out was rejected, but he got under so much stress that he freaked out and pulled on the wrong thing just as some kind of reflex.

Miscommunication is often the #1 cause of accidents.

But the outcome of this, I still find amazing. They got out of it with very light injuries.

 

Offline langwadt

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2020, 06:43:09 pm »
I'm sure they enjoy their job, just I don't enjoy them doing their job.
Now having a couple of hints on how seriously the elite are doing their job over our heads, yes F... them!

Thanks for the post.  I enjoyed the story.

I liked this video on Taffy Holden



Another accidental take-off

https://youtu.be/TGjPu6DPzWU?t=97

I'm guessing the "co-pilot" that froze wasn't really a pilot but some spectator along for the ride



 

Offline bw2341

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2020, 10:18:47 pm »
I've read the BEA report.

A number of things to consider, but I'll sum up the main root cause: the passenger had a medical examination a few hours before the flight, and it followed he got a medical restriction to +3G. Unfortunately, it appeared that this restriction was NOT communicated to the pilot. Whereas he had planned on having a "cooler" flight than usual, just because there was a civilian passenger, he wasn't aware of the +3G restriction, so during the initial climb - which he didn't adapt, because he had no reason to - they were subjected to ~+4G. The report states that the hypothesis of the passenger passing out was rejected, but he got under so much stress that he freaked out and pulled on the wrong thing just as some kind of reflex.
While, my French isn't good enough to understand the full report, there is additional detail in section 2.3.1.1. Mission on page 29.

The accident flight wasn't a dedicated demonstration flight, but a regular operational training mission with three jets in air combat manoeuvres. The doctor telephoned the pilot, telling them to not make the flight too intense for the passenger. The pilot decided to cut the flight short and fly only the first phase, leaving a simple flight out and then returning to the airport.

The takeoff phase was unchanged. Since the accident aircraft was the third one in the formation, it followed the other two in a standard takeoff in order to rendezvous with them later. During takeoff, the pilots do not pay attention to the g-loading, so they may routinely exceed +4g.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 10:59:33 pm by bw2341 »
 

Offline bw2341

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2020, 10:51:28 pm »
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/content/download/580401/9905742/A-2019-03-I.pdf
Here's the link to the report.

The failure of the front ejection seat is interesting. The sequence selector has two pyrotechnic control lines to the front seat, one for the main ejection motor and one for the harness tensioner. The tensioner charge functioned correctly. The main ejection motor did not fire.

The pyrotechnic control lines are probably shock tube detonators, which are thin tubes filled with explosives. The burning explosives transmit a signal from one place to another, directly triggering the ejection motor.

In this case, the control line from the sequence selector to the front seat ejection motor was not tightly screwed into the body of the sequence selector.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2020, 11:13:00 pm »
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/content/download/580401/9905742/A-2019-03-I.pdf
Here's the link to the report.

The failure of the front ejection seat is interesting. The sequence selector has two pyrotechnic control lines to the front seat, one for the main ejection motor and one for the harness tensioner. The tensioner charge functioned correctly. The main ejection motor did not fire.

The pyrotechnic control lines are probably shock tube detonators, which are thin tubes filled with explosives. The burning explosives transmit a signal from one place to another, directly triggering the ejection motor.

In this case, the control line from the sequence selector to the front seat ejection motor was not tightly screwed into the body of the sequence selector.

apart from all the other screwups I'd consider an ejection seat failure quite a serious fault

I don't know if all fighter jets fire both seat automatically, I seem to remember stories of other people getting a ride in a two-eater jet being told by the pilot that if told to eject they shouldn't hesitate because he would not wait long even through the rear seat is supposed to leave first

 

Offline bw2341

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2020, 12:07:30 am »
The Rafale has a selector switch for SOLO (independently controlled ejection) or TWO (both seats will eject if either handle is pulled). On the accident flight, the switch was set to TWO so both seats should have ejected.

Another technical fault during the flight was that the life raft in the pilot survival kit failed to inflate due to a blockage on the trigger cord.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 12:17:01 am by bw2341 »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2020, 12:25:37 am »
I've read the BEA report.

A number of things to consider, but I'll sum up the main root cause: the passenger had a medical examination a few hours before the flight, and it followed he got a medical restriction to +3G. Unfortunately, it appeared that this restriction was NOT communicated to the pilot. Whereas he had planned on having a "cooler" flight than usual, just because there was a civilian passenger, he wasn't aware of the +3G restriction, so during the initial climb - which he didn't adapt, because he had no reason to - they were subjected to ~+4G. The report states that the hypothesis of the passenger passing out was rejected, but he got under so much stress that he freaked out and pulled on the wrong thing just as some kind of reflex.
While, my French isn't good enough to understand the full report, there is additional detail in section 2.3.1.1. Mission on page 29.

The accident flight wasn't a dedicated demonstration flight, but a regular operational training mission with three jets in air combat manoeuvres. The doctor telephoned the pilot, telling them to not make the flight too intense for the passenger. The pilot decided to cut the flight short and fly only the first phase, leaving a simple flight out and then returning to the airport.

The takeoff phase was unchanged. Since the accident aircraft was the third one in the formation, it followed the other two in a standard takeoff in order to rendezvous with them later. During takeoff, the pilots do not pay attention to the g-loading, so they may routinely exceed +4g.

Problem with the doctor's communication is again that he failed to mention the 3g restriction. Had it been clearly communicated, I think the pilot would have had a clue as to how to handle the initial climb.

" non communication au commandant de bord et au passager de la restriction médicale à 3 g suite à une
aptitude médicale délivrée avec restrictions moins de 4 heures avant le vol ; "

So the doctor's recommendations were clearly too vague for some unknown reason. This restriction alone should have been enough to decide to switch to just a basic demo flight.

Now of course nothing tells us for sure that the poor guy would not have freaked out anyway. He underwent a medical exam, but was probably not subjected to any significant psychological testing prior to the flight. Note again that the passenger didn't actually pass out, so that was more intense stress.

And then yes, there were a couple technical faults after the incident, but they are not causes. But as I said, it's amazing how the pilot managed to land safely in spite of them.

The recommendations from the BEA after the flight were:

"(...) respecter le délai de 10 jours préconisé par la DCSSA entre la visite médicale et le vol" - which means there should have been 10 days between the medical exam and the flight, whereas here there were only a few hours, probably explaining why some of the info was not well communicated.

"(...)prévoir un vol adapté ou dédié pour l’embarquement d’un passager occasionnel sur avion
équipé de siège éjectable en cas de restrictions médicales." - which means for any occasional passenger with medical restrictions, the flight should be adapted for planes with ejectable seats.

I'm sure again the pilot was meaning to "adapt" the flight somewhat, but was not informed well enough to make the right decisions.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 12:27:59 am by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline bw2341

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2020, 01:04:05 am »
In 2.3.6.1. Transmission de l’information:

"Compte tenu des contraintes temporelles, le passager a quitté le CMA avant que le médecin ait pu contacter le CEMPN. Le
passager quitte donc le centre médical avant que le médecin ait pu conclure son expertise."

So because of the rush, the passenger left the medical facility before the doctor was able to contact an aviation medical specialist.

"Pour des raisons informatiques, le certificat n’est pas rédigé immédiatement et l’information est transmise par téléphone au pilote sans que la notion de limitation à +3 g ne soit explicitement signalée."

Because of an IT problem, the report was not written right away. Instead, a phone call was made without mentioning the +3g limit.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 01:25:58 am by bw2341 »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2020, 01:40:13 am »
Yes, the communication problem and what unfolded was mainly due to the whole thing being done in a rush. Thus the recommendation of respecting a delay of 10 days, which actually preexisted.

The reason for the rush itself in unclear - maybe the whole event as a "gift" was really planned at the last "minute". Or maybe the passenger could not get an appointment with the doctor soon enough.

Either way, the unreasonable part here was that the flight crew accepted to take the passenger without actually having the medical certificate - just a phone call. That alone should probably be considered a fault.

Of course as I said, the incident could still have happened - who knows, the guy may have freaked out just the same even at just +2g inside a fighter jet... but we'll never know. It's clear that rushing is never a good idea.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2020, 01:59:41 am »
I've read the BEA report.

A number of things to consider, but I'll sum up the main root cause: the passenger had a medical examination a few hours before the flight, and it followed he got a medical restriction to +3G. Unfortunately, it appeared that this restriction was NOT communicated to the pilot. Whereas he had planned on having a "cooler" flight than usual, just because there was a civilian passenger, he wasn't aware of the +3G restriction, so during the initial climb - which he didn't adapt, because he had no reason to - they were subjected to ~+4G. The report states that the hypothesis of the passenger passing out was rejected, but he got under so much stress that he freaked out and pulled on the wrong thing just as some kind of reflex.
While, my French isn't good enough to understand the full report, there is additional detail in section 2.3.1.1. Mission on page 29.

The accident flight wasn't a dedicated demonstration flight, but a regular operational training mission with three jets in air combat manoeuvres. The doctor telephoned the pilot, telling them to not make the flight too intense for the passenger. The pilot decided to cut the flight short and fly only the first phase, leaving a simple flight out and then returning to the airport.

The takeoff phase was unchanged. Since the accident aircraft was the third one in the formation, it followed the other two in a standard takeoff in order to rendezvous with them later. During takeoff, the pilots do not pay attention to the g-loading, so they may routinely exceed +4g.

Problem with the doctor's communication is again that he failed to mention the 3g restriction. Had it been clearly communicated, I think the pilot would have had a clue as to how to handle the initial climb.

" non communication au commandant de bord et au passager de la restriction médicale à 3 g suite à une
aptitude médicale délivrée avec restrictions moins de 4 heures avant le vol ; "

as far as I know many rollercoaster are 4g, I think the -0.6g feels much worse

 

Offline blueskull

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Re: WTF!!! (French Airforce FUBAR)
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2020, 03:10:15 am »
as far as I know many rollercoaster are 4g, I think the -0.6g feels much worse

I'm okay with a few Gs, but negative G is a different story. It always make me feel sick, disgusted and makes my heart pounding so hard that it feels like it's on my throat.
 


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