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General => General Chat => Topic started by: Ferroto on May 01, 2011, 05:20:58 pm

Title: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Ferroto on May 01, 2011, 05:20:58 pm
[youtube]6kcGltYWz3k[/youtube]
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Zero999 on May 01, 2011, 05:27:11 pm
It sounds like a marketing term for a brushless motor.

I think it's a good idea: no brushes to wear out, lower power consumption, lighter and will warm up the room much less on a hot day.

The video is wrong about Faraday: a brushless motor still works on the principle of electromagnetic induction.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Kiriakos-GR on May 01, 2011, 05:53:59 pm
Well In my everyday life I name as digital motor the stepping motors ,
found in printers mostly.

 
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: tecman on May 01, 2011, 05:58:21 pm
Dyson's is not even a stepper, but a PM, electronically commutated motor.  Brushless motor to most of the world, and just marketing hype by Dyson.  And selling "no carbon emissions" is just such total BS.  It is not CO2, but perhaps a few tens of grams in 5 years of carbon dust.  That will save the world from global warming.

It no wonder that this guy took a thousand prototypes before he had a working model (reference to his TV commercial).

paul
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Ernie Milko on May 01, 2011, 06:09:07 pm
And Dyson cleaners are crap!
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Zero999 on May 01, 2011, 06:13:05 pm
And selling "no carbon emissions" is just such total BS.  It is not CO2, but perhaps a few tens of grams in 5 years of carbon dust.  
Yes total bollocks, the digital switching has nothing to do with carbon emissions.

There's some truth in it being more efficient meaning lower carbon emissions but it won't be zero.

And Dyson cleaners are crap!
Ever owned one? It's true some older models suffered from poor build quality but the newer models are very good.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Ernie Milko on May 01, 2011, 06:35:19 pm
Ever owned one? It's true some older models suffered from poor build quality but the newer models are very good.

Well, obviously. I wouldn't have made that statement otherwise.
My wife seems to get pulled-in by the sales pitch, which means we have owned several over the last ten years or so.
I'm the one who ends up having to dismantle the bloody things when they block.
No loss of suction my arse.
I took the last one to the tip.

I can, however, speak very favourably of Henry and Vax.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: TheWelly888 on May 01, 2011, 06:40:10 pm
Our Dave's already mentioned it in a video blog

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1959.0 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1959.0)
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Zero999 on May 01, 2011, 07:19:23 pm
Well, obviously. I wouldn't have made that statement otherwise.
My wife seems to get pulled-in by the sales pitch, which means we have owned several over the last ten years or so.
I'm the one who ends up having to dismantle the bloody things when they block.
No loss of suction my arse.
I took the last one to the tip.

I can, however, speak very favourably of Henry and Vax.
The first Dyson we owned is now on the tip because it fell to pieces. We now have a new one (two months old) and are very happy with the build quality and suction. We still have an old Panasonic but the new Dyson is so good it removes more fluff from our new carpet so we tend to use the old Panasonic everyday and the Dyson for more intensive cleaning. The thing I like about it is the way it doesn't emit loads of dust, like all the other bagged vacuumes I've used or those which use a simple filter to remove the dust.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Simon on May 01, 2011, 08:05:50 pm
that video is voiced over too typical of an advert, total marketing twatery. The motor is not digital but the driving technology may be
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: tekfan on May 01, 2011, 09:14:25 pm
Carbon emissions - yea right

You probably make more ''carbon emissions'' when you write with a pencil.

But what happens when you use an eraser to erase it. Oh no! I'm causing global warming!!!
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Neilm on May 01, 2011, 09:19:06 pm
that video is voiced over too typical of an advert, total marketing twatery. The motor is not digital but the driving technology may be

My grandfathers electric drill has a digital control system, it is either stopped or running at full speed. That IS digital.

Neil
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Mechatrommer on May 01, 2011, 11:04:51 pm
Carbon emissions - yea right
carbon? dont breath! CO2!
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Sionyn on May 02, 2011, 01:13:13 am
the digital bit is the  mosfets
that it
hardly revolutionary


reminds me of beats audio guff

HP with Beats Audio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7y6azvuNis#ws)
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: tekfan on May 02, 2011, 01:24:23 am
OK so most of the stuff in the video is possible but how does a headphone jack work if it doesn't contain any metal contacts?
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Leo Bodnar on May 02, 2011, 03:58:17 am
"Digital" means operated by a finger.

digit noun
1 any of the numerals from 0 to 9, esp. when forming part of a number.
2 a finger (including the thumb) or toe.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Simon on May 02, 2011, 07:23:19 am
the digital bit is the  mosfets
that it
hardly revolutionary


reminds me of beats audio guff

HP with Beats Audio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7y6azvuNis#ws)

pft what a lot of bollocks ! I like the "audio island" only to see that the output cables obviously have to travel across the whole notebook picking up NOISE. I'm not sure what HP used this for if at all (could be a piss take ?) but if this was advertising material it should be banned
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Sionyn on May 02, 2011, 01:42:02 pm
agreed simon its all junk
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: kaptain_zero on May 02, 2011, 11:11:56 pm
I'd be inclined to suspect it to be a reluctance type motor.....  Nova, another company from Dave land, markets the DVR woodturning lathe with the DVR standing for Digital Variable Reluctance.  A quick check on Wikipedia pulls up this little blurb:

"Electronic driven variable reluctance motor.

An electronic driven variable reluctance motor (Figure below) resembles a brushless DC motor without a permanent magnet rotor. This makes the motor simple and inexpensive. However, this is offset by the cost of the electronic control, which is not nearly as simple as that for a brushless DC motor. "

I base my suspicions on the appearance of the rotor he's holding in that video....

Regards

Christian
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: tecman on May 03, 2011, 01:22:46 am
Video looks like a PM rotor.  Simplest and cheap for a small motor such as this.

paul
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: scrat on May 03, 2011, 09:02:41 am
Video looks like a PM rotor.  Simplest and cheap for a small motor such as this.

paul

In the video it seems it's a PM rotor, but here http://www.appliancedesign.com/CDA/Archives/3c4028037aa38010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____ (http://www.appliancedesign.com/CDA/Archives/3c4028037aa38010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____) they say it's a switched reluctance, and from the drawing you see it's single phase. These motors work similarly to a stepper motor, without magnets on the rotor (so achieving very low cost). There must also be a version with PM (see http://www.dyson.com/technology/ddmtabbed.asp (http://www.dyson.com/technology/ddmtabbed.asp) there's the drawing, too), mounted on the handheld version of the cleaner (higher power density is needed there).
The photo here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/5636349/Dyson-unveils-worlds-fastest-motor-in-new-vacuum.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/5636349/Dyson-unveils-worlds-fastest-motor-in-new-vacuum.html) shows how tiny these motors are, but nothing so special. In this last page, they also say "We are the only company in the world producing a switched reluctance motor.". That's really annoying!
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 03, 2011, 09:53:49 am
I have repaired the drive circuits for what could be called a diigital motor".

It used DC pulses to produce a rotating magnetic field to operate an induction motor by switching the pulses to successive windings situated

in a circular pattern surrounding the rotor.

Initially,the drive circuit set up the rotating field at an arbitrary rate,but when it was running,it received feedback from Hall Effect

sensors,indicating the rotor position. This information was then used to stabilise the motor speed.

Although this device used Op Amps & a switchmode regulator IC to perform its marvels,it could be done with virtually all of the circuitry

in the digital domain.

These motors rotated at very high speeds ,& were used to drive "Turbo vacuum pumps" in a Chemistry lab.


VK6ZGO
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Sionyn on May 03, 2011, 01:33:58 pm
here go the carbon emissions thing again

Dyson Digital Motor Press Launch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZF4dhVQXiU#)
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Zero999 on May 03, 2011, 06:17:10 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor)
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 04, 2011, 03:04:51 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor)

The thing described in this link is near as dammit to the device I referred to in my post above.

It's a glorified Induction motor,with the rotating field supplied by a dc switching circuit instead of the ac mains.

VK6ZGO
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: scrat on May 04, 2011, 08:34:34 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor)

The thing described in this link is near as dammit to the device I referred to in my post above.

It's a glorified Induction motor,with the rotating field supplied by a dc switching circuit instead of the ac mains.

VK6ZGO

Switched reluctance are synchronous motors, while induction are asyncronous. The latter require rotor currents (induced by the same principle as in a transformer), while the first work because of the inductance difference along the rotor axes, so only require the right current vector in the stator windings (so could be more efficient).
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 04, 2011, 09:24:46 am
The only way an electric motor can operate,unless it has permanent magnets mounted on its rotor,is from induced

currents in the rotor.

They may be eddy currents,as in the aluminium disc of a classic Kw/H meter,but they are still induced currents.

VK6ZGO
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: scrat on May 04, 2011, 10:28:19 am
No, anysotropy of the rotor is another way it can generate torque without electrically conductive rotor.
There are reluctance motors and hybrid (e.g. Interior Permanent Magnet) that work on that principle (different inductance or reluctance on orthogonal directions).
There's a component for the torque which is (Ld-Lq)*Id*Iq, where "d" and "q" stand for the direct (aligned to the rotor minimum inductance axis) and quadrature components.
The system follows the point of minimum reluctance, which is where the energized coil is aligned with one of the rotor teeth in a switched rel motor.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Zero999 on May 04, 2011, 04:51:26 pm
The only way an electric motor can operate,unless it has permanent magnets mounted on its rotor,is from induced 

No.

If you read the Wikipedia article I linked to, you discover a motor can work without permanent magnets or a wound rotor.

If you find that hard to understand make a simple linear motor, wind a coil round a straw with a nail  loosely fitted in the middle and you'll discover the nail is pulled into the coil when it's energised.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 05, 2011, 02:40:47 am
The only way an electric motor can operate,unless it has permanent magnets mounted on its rotor,is from induced 

No.

If you read the Wikipedia article I linked to, you discover a motor can work without permanent magnets or a wound rotor.

If you find that hard to understand make a simple linear motor, wind a coil round a straw with a nail  loosely fitted in the middle and you'll discover the nail is pulled into the coil when it's energised.


OK,do that,then after you have proved a solenoid will draw a nail into it,remove the nail.


 Is it still magnetic?

Where did the magnetic field come from?

Would it work with a piece of ferrite material?

Note:-I never said you have to have a wound rotor,in fact,the example I gave  was of an aluminium disc

rotating in a magnetic field.They do work,there is one in most meter boxes.


OK,I see where you are coming from:-

"If the induced magnetic field is from induced currents,why does a permanent magnet attract a non magnetised piece of iron?"

Right?

So if we can induce a magnetic field in that case without induced currents,why not in a motor?


Well,one thing is,that a conductor moving through a magnetic field will have a current induced in it,anyway.

The magnetic field is continually changing,so the  polarity of the induced magnetic field  & hence the alignment of the atoms

making up the material will change.I suggest that this constitutes a current.

OK,I'm not a Physicist,so I'm not able to determine whether magnetic realignments constitute a current,but I will leave you with

these suggestions:-

Try making a motor with a ferrite rotor,& an insulator as a shaft


Try a motor with the whole rotor assembly made from an insulator

My guess is neither of them will work.

VK6ZGO




















Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 05, 2011, 04:15:56 am
Sorry,Hero999,most of my comments in the last posting should more properly be directed at Sprat!

You will note,however,that in all of my earlier postings,I referred to an "Induction Motor".

I never implied that these type of motors had wound rotors,in fact the  majority do not.

I incorrectly implied that all electric motors  ran due to induced currents---that of course is untrue,as DC /Universal motors

& slip-ring AC motors directly energise the armature windings.

I still maintain that :-

Those motors which do not have a wound,directly energised armature depend upon induced currents in the rotor to function.

(Note:- I have avoided the term armature,in favour of rotor in previous posts,leaving armature to refer to the wound device.)

Non- magnetic materials will work in an induction motor,non- conductive materials will not.

VK6ZGO
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Rufus on May 05, 2011, 10:48:28 am
I still maintain that :-

Those motors which do not have a wound,directly energised armature depend upon induced currents in the rotor to function.

You are wrong. Reluctance motors are synchronous. The rotor stays aligned with the rotating magnetic field created by the stator. It doesn't go 'through' any magnetic field to have currents induced.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: tecman on May 05, 2011, 12:54:22 pm
I still maintain that :-

Those motors which do not have a wound,directly energised armature depend upon induced currents in the rotor to function.

You are wrong. Reluctance motors are synchronous. The rotor stays aligned with the rotating magnetic field created by the stator. It doesn't go 'through' any magnetic field to have currents induced.

Reluctance motors are synchronous, but can "slip" rotation without potentially damaging current, as with a PM motor.

paul
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 05, 2011, 02:54:13 pm
Whatever!

VK6ZGO
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Leo Bodnar on May 05, 2011, 05:22:19 pm
here go the carbon emissions thing again

Watching a good engineer diving straight into heavyweight marketing bullshit is upsetting.
Pretty much akin to an attractive and smart woman slipping into prostitution.  :-\
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Zero999 on May 05, 2011, 06:20:07 pm
Would it work with a piece of ferrite material?
It certainly will, the rod inside the solenoid doesn't have to be conductive to be pulled into the coil.

I still maintain that :-

Those motors which do not have a wound,directly energised armature depend upon induced currents in the rotor to function.

(Note:- I have avoided the term armature,in favour of rotor in previous posts,leaving armature to refer to the wound device.)

Non- magnetic materials will work in an induction motor,non- conductive materials will not.

A switched reluctance motor is not an induction motor. The rotor doesn't have to be conductive in order for it to work but it has to be magnetic and by that I mean attracted to a magnet not a permanent magnet. The rotor could be made of non-conductive ferrite and it would still work. If the rotor were to be made from non-magnetic aluminium, it would not work as a switched reluctance motor, the rotor might rotate but it wouldn't be synchronous, it will only turn by induced flux, like an induction motor.

A switched reluctance motor is a synchronous machine because the rotor directly tracks the rotating magnetic flux.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: scrat on May 05, 2011, 10:14:29 pm
@VK6ZGO:
I just confirm what Hero is saying.
About the "insulator made" rotor, unfortunately it is impossible in thre real world, since almost all ferromagnetic materials are weak conductors.
However, rotor (induced) currents are strongly unwanted in synchronous PM, REL or hybrid motors (which do not have slip rings). This is for at least two reasons: "cold" rotor means more efficiency, and control is only based on the rotor PM flux/anysotropy direction vs stator current "direction" (which is mechanically locked to the shaft) giving more accurate torque control (while induction motors' rotor flux is just estimated).
Induced currents are usually blocked by using laminated and grain oriented iron materials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel).

Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 10, 2011, 03:11:20 am
Yes! You were right,& I was wrong!

I found a reference which explained it to my satisfaction.

The sticking point with me was that I couldn't see how when the current was switched to the stator coils,

the change in magnetic field between zero & the full field would not cause induced currents in the rotor.

The magic words in the reference were "Laminated  rotor",which convinced me that there would be minimal

induced current in the rotor,& hence your explanation was the correct one.

Of course,Laminated rotors are used in brush type motors to minimise induced currents in the rotor core ,which are

regarded as losses,so I should have remembered that.

The motor I repaired the drive board for may have been either a switched reluctance,or an induction motor,as

my main concern was fixing the electronics.


VK6ZGO
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Zero999 on May 14, 2011, 09:23:35 pm
Yes! You were right,& I was wrong!
It's good you've swallowed your prided any admitted it, other people I know never admit it when they've made a mistake.

Quote
I found a reference which explained it to my satisfaction.
Could you please post a link? It may help other people who've also had difficulty understanding it.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: onemilimeter on May 14, 2011, 11:48:17 pm
I built a switched reluctance drive (the motor and converter) before. It's a synchronous motor. I can confirm that the explanation by Hero999 and scrat are correct.

Induction Machine:
- Two magnetic fields (one is produced when stator winding is energized, another one is produced when induced current flows in rotor conductors) --> Lorentz Force Law --> torque


Switched Reluctance Machine:
- One magnetic field (produced when stator winding is energized) --> torque production is based on the principle to minimize the reluctance of the magnetic circuit --> reluctance torque
- Require rotor with saliency.


By the way, Mr Dyson visited our department two days ago! I should have asked him the advertisement about "zero carbon emission"... :)
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Leo Bodnar on May 21, 2011, 11:17:09 am
The whole vacuum cleaner business is a sham.  Using 2kW of power to pick up a few milligrammes of dust and transfer it into a bag is ridiculous.

Then Mr Dyson steps out and self-proclaims he is genius because he can get rid of the bag and use brushless motor to power the same old crappy technology.  >:(

Loads of spin and glitzy looking plastic enveloping the old inefficient century-old technology.
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Simon on May 21, 2011, 11:34:03 am
yea, Mr Dyson is now in my books as a con man. showing off what is current technology as his own personal invention. The guy needs to get with the program
Title: Re: wtf is a digital motor?
Post by: Mechatrommer on May 21, 2011, 01:05:41 pm
thats the problem with people who know shit about ee and try to talk about one. i read his story in reader's digest (friend's, not mine!). he's an artist, like the rest of the artist's who tried to make money.