Author Topic: WTF Mouser??  (Read 2092 times)

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Online james_s

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2020, 04:46:55 am »
The resistance depends on pressure and surface area, but just touching probe tips a few mm apart results in less than 100k. The battery has a much larger surface area and with the package closed the pressure is reasonably firm.

The first time I ordered one of these I didn't open the package for a week because I was waiting for PCBs to arrive and in that case the battery was down below 0.6V.
 

Offline LivelyLlama

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2020, 05:03:13 am »
That is significant, but it doesn't seem like nearly enough to discharge the battery that far unless they were on that foam for thousands of hours.

Mouser has a process where they pre-pack some items in common denominations, for instance, thru hole resistors packed by the hundred.  I wonder if they are removing these batteries from the tube and storing them elsewhere?  The best thing to do would be to contact the warehouse where they were delivered from, they should give you e-mail contact for this if you call them.  My experience is that they've always been receptive to feedback in the past.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2020, 05:11:26 am »
Again, why is it reasonable to expect non-electronics people to understand why that's a problem? Were you taught about these things in school?
...yes.  :palm:

Could Maxim/Dallas be to blame?
The PowerCap datasheet has no packaging information, no formal name, it's not the "PCM".
Digikey says it comes in a tube of 19 pcs.
So how would the fulfillment workers know what to do? Usually you cut a tube to size- if you have extra.
It's right there in the datasheet:
Quote
ATTENTION: BATTERY COMPONENT
The DS9034PCX contains a lithium battery. Do not short, ground, or apply external voltages to the electrical portions of this device. Do not expose to temperatures over +85°C. Do not subject this device to any type of cleaning process. Store only in nonconductive containers. Failure to observe these precautions may result in battery discharge or decreased battery life.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 05:17:19 am by amyk »
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2020, 06:05:27 am »
That's an interesting thing, I can kinda see how it could happen.  A stand alone component with a battery built in that can be shorted by shorting the pins of the product is probably a rather rare thing and whoever is packaging these things is probably following some instructions like "if it says ESD sensitive use this material".  Perhaps there needs to be some kind of flag for these items to make sure they don't actually use conductive packaging.

I wonder if this is an issue with other stores as well.  Maybe the product itself could have a tiny switch or something that you need to turn on to connect the battery internally.  Of course that is an extra cost and an extra point of failure... probably not worth simply for shipping reasons.

Actually this reminds me of a time I make a gag "satellite" using a pop can and foil and bunch of wires and stuff, it was for an april fools thing where I was announcing that I'm launching a satellite so just throw some stuff together for a couple pictures.  Without thinking, I took a battery holder with two fresh AAs and shoved it on the can as part of the gag.  Well... the pins were shorting the battery right on the can!  Yeah that got pretty hot lol.  Good thing it was not 18650s.  Total goof moment there that could have gone horribly wrong just for a silly joke.
 

Offline OwO

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2020, 07:45:37 am »
So basically it's a component that is both ESD sensitive (crystal) and can not be stored in ESD foam. I don't get the point of this product at all, why would you combine a battery and a watch crystal (which you can get in tiny smd package for really cheap)? And finally of course it's priced sky-high  ::)
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Offline blueskull

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2020, 07:49:42 am »
So basically it's a component that is both ESD sensitive (crystal) and can not be stored in ESD foam. I don't get the point of this product at all, why would you combine a battery and a watch crystal (which you can get in tiny smd package for really cheap)? And finally of course it's priced sky-high  ::)

I think the reason has to be related to aging. Crystals do age in time, and if it is used to keep an accurate time, it has to be replaced every a few years, just like the battery.
And yes, it is stupidly expensive, but if you are building $1000+ small volume industrial gears that are supposed to last, spending a few bucks on an elegant user-replaceable battery+crystal solution might be cheaper than engineering your own.

Setting up an injection mold for the replaceable assembly, setting up a custom crystal binning and aging rig, and sourcing safety rated and certified batteries, all of them in a Western country can cost easily $10000+, so if you are only after say 1000 units, you'd better pay a few bucks to get it done with a prepackaged solution.
 

Online james_s

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2020, 04:45:25 pm »
So basically it's a component that is both ESD sensitive (crystal) and can not be stored in ESD foam. I don't get the point of this product at all, why would you combine a battery and a watch crystal (which you can get in tiny smd package for really cheap)? And finally of course it's priced sky-high  ::)

If you read the datasheet it tells you. It's because it is for a surface mount assembly, so you can solder the thing on the board without exposing the crystal or the battery to high temperature. I chose these because I can replace the battery later and not have to carve the battery out of obsolete epoxy potted bricks as is the case with the ones I'm replacing. Prices sky high? At $10 these are cheap, the potted assemblies are $60 and some types are no longer available at all. These are used in some still quite expensive test gear.

I don't think I've ever heard of a crystal being damaged by ESD, and I don't see any indications on the parts of them being ESD sensitive.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2020, 05:46:33 pm »
Anyway. As annoying as it sounds (and I would have been annoyed too), occasional fuck-ups like this are bound to happen. Mouser probably have millions of references to deal with, and operators probably deal with packaging thousands a day... and given the sheer numbers here, they are not supposed to individually judge if each part should or should not be packaged with any particular care, they probably just follow strict procedures, and the type of packaging required is likely indicated in the database. We're not talking about a small shop here. Given that this part is a bit peculiar (needs ESD protection, but has pins some of which are powered from the inside), I'm not overly surprised this happened. Packaging information for this part was probably incorrect from the start, or at least not precise enough.

Hopefully Mouser's processes are decent, and your claim will trigger fixing packaging information for this part, that's pretty much all we can hope for. Mistakes happen, not taking action to correct them once identified is bad practice.
 
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Offline amyk

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2020, 09:44:34 pm »
I wonder if this is an issue with other stores as well.  Maybe the product itself could have a tiny switch or something that you need to turn on to connect the battery internally.  Of course that is an extra cost and an extra point of failure... probably not worth simply for shipping reasons.
Or just cover the contacts with a thin piece of "remove before use" plastic tape...
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2020, 02:16:08 pm »
Thing is, how do you safely protect the device from ESD during transport if internal protections are not sufficient and you can't short all pins together?

So yeah, here they could have used a foam with much lower conductivity to limit the discharge of the internal battery, but that would still discharge it a bit. That's a bit of a conundrum.
 

Online tooki

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2020, 03:59:08 pm »
How about the tubes that Dallas ships them in?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2020, 04:31:42 pm »
They may have a reason for not directly using the original packaging. Sometimes it also depends on the quantities you order. We are just guessing at this point, they should just fix this and move on. ;D
 

Online james_s

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2020, 05:26:59 pm »
The last time they sent me a replacement for the one they packed in conductive foam, the replacement came in a cut down piece of tube. This batch of replacements is scheduled to arrive tomorrow at which point I'll report back with how they are packaged.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2020, 02:09:37 am »
Thing is, how do you safely protect the device from ESD during transport if internal protections are not sufficient and you can't short all pins together?

So yeah, here they could have used a foam with much lower conductivity to limit the discharge of the internal battery, but that would still discharge it a bit. That's a bit of a conundrum.
It's a battery. How does it need to be protected from ESD...?
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: WTF Mouser??
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2020, 12:50:59 pm »
It's funny how little it takes to annoy people and make them ranting all over the Internet. Everyone presumes that "I'm not that stupid, I'd never do a mistake like this, so the person/company/whoever who made this mistake must be $%%^^". Many problems seem to be trivial aftermath, but hard to foresee without knowing all the details. Once people know about the problem, they think that people who don't know yet are idiots and "need to be educated". Of course in a very straight and offensive way. That's how justice warriors are born.

PS Just think what your plumber, or car mechanic thinks of you.

I'm not going around ranting all over the internet, I posted once here in the chat section of this forum mostly curious if others had the same experience. I'm not saying don't buy from Mouser and I'm not going to stop buying from them myself. It's not *that* big of a deal, I don't want anyone fired, I'm not asking for their head on a stake, I'm not advocating for new laws, I'm not demanding compensation for wasted time or the fact that I'm unable to deliver to the customer on time, I mean whatever, stuff happens.  I was just annoyed and so I posted something to vent my frustration, it's as simple as that.

Yes I was a bit annoyed, I think if you went to a business twice within a month or two and twice they made the same dumb mistake you'd probably be annoyed too. I know very well what my plumber and car mechanic think of me because they are me. Yes like anyone I make mistakes, however it's rare that I make the same mistake twice.

Isn't it ironic, how the person 'complaining' (and a certain person who 'thanked' him  :P), always switch on their megaphones from their ivory towers to ridicule & put down someone for daring to pose a valid question!!??  They talk about grandiosing nothing just to make waves. However, they don't think about THEIR non-constructive replies, aimed purely at 'offending', due to their self proclaimed 'godliness'.  :o
Don't let them bury you in shit, mate!  Stand up to the Demi-Gods. You have a right like any other Human here...   8)
 


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