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General => General Chat => Topic started by: BravoV on April 22, 2017, 09:05:49 pm

Title: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: BravoV on April 22, 2017, 09:05:49 pm
Friend gave me a sealed Energizer alkaline batteries just for giggle, as he knows me as a fanatic Eneloop users and never allowed any Alkaline AA or AAA cells to touch my electronics.

Even though its not very fresh, maybe it was kept for few years, but he assured me it was stored in dry and stable temperature and about 25 or 26C throughout the years, and I believe him as he does collect lots of expensive camera bodies and lenses in temp & humidity controlled box, so he aware of this matter.

Its the Energizer brand that is sold here locally, and the price basically higher than local brand's Alkaline, but yet its well known for leak even unused. And worst is, at the package its printed (translated) ... Power SEAL Technology ... with Locked Power Up to 10 YEARS !"  :palm:

Enough said, just let the attached photo below speaks for it self, just watch the expiry date and the manufacturing origin.

Also this post is a reminder if you use alkaline, its time for to check them in your expensive gadgets.


PS : Also the same crap, that were ruining my Fluke 287 few years ago when I bought it as they were came installed in it, and this photo was shot at 2013, just watch the expiry date too -> Rotten Energizer Alkaline cells in 2013 ruined Fluke 287 contacts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/msg317259/#msg317259) :rant:

Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Vtile on April 22, 2017, 09:34:25 pm
Well if you hook those particular models and brand to the 500mA contant current load and unload it to 0.7 volts you will notice it might have some other aspects also than leaking, that might make you hrmpf. well you can quess (I did for AAA).
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 22, 2017, 09:35:16 pm
Wow that's kinda bad.  Though 25C does seem quite high if it's a continuous temp.    But that's probably within spec so should still not be an issue. 

Makes me realize I need to organize my batteries better, and preferably in plastic containers.  Lot of them are just loose in a cabinet.  I find there are certain things that just won't take rechargeables as the voltage is too low so I keep alkalines around too. I think those are a use case where a batterizer might actually work.  :-DD 
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: BravoV on April 22, 2017, 09:45:07 pm
Well if you hook those particular models and brand to the 500mA contant current load and unload it to 0.7 volts you will notice it might have some other aspects also than leaking, that might make you hrmpf. well you can quess (I did for AAA).

Yes, I did that at those bastards that ruined my 287 few years ago.  >:(

They're unused or not drained, yet leaked, and they still can give you power.

Here comes the danger, the voltage reading especially unloaded or very lightly loaded maybe by the low power auxiliary voltage reading circuit only, not the main load, sometimes can mislead that user thought its still fresh and skip the physical inspection, so becareful.

Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: BravoV on April 22, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Wow that's kinda bad.  Though 25C does seem quite high if it's a continuous temp.    But that's probably within spec so should still not be an issue. 

It must not be an issue at all, as these were sold "legally" here, imported by legal Energizer representative office. Also its not like they're new here, I've seen this brand sold for decades here.

It is a tropical country, their pink bunny loving battery designers/engineers should have known and aware about this climate thing, aren't they ?  ::)
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Electro Detective on April 22, 2017, 11:48:51 pm
My first reply comment posting on EEVblog.

First up, variable 300 to 400 degree warm greetings to all fellow solder iron wielding Ladies and Gentleman on EEVblog :)

----------

FWiW the leaking battery plague has actually gone my way recently in a weird positive direction.

I could afford to buy 6 unloved quality used meters (assorted Flukes and a Kyoritsu) for less than the price of 1 new meter because you guessed it, all had severe battery leakage problems, and once pointed out, the store manager/staff keen to let them go dirt cheap (heavy markdown loss) with no warranty of course.

The retail take is they are worth next to nothing in that state to the shop, just return hassles, refunds and complaints, and or would have been binned in the future as damaged or NRV stock.
The deal was I take them as is for parts, oh yeah   8)

------------------

And what an MESS   :palm:  those self nuked Enerjizzzer batteries made, the (expletive) cr*p was everywhere on the boards, in powder and fluid form, over, under and around components, blah blah... 

Took an entire day to disassemble the lot and sort them out, featuring rubber gloves and old clothing all the way.

LOL, the Fluke 289 had a double whammy on it, the dreaded supercRapacitor on the board was a bit crusty too but scrubbed up ok with some alco. I'll have to get that sucker out one day once I source what to put in that won't leak, or kill the board in the process, so I'll let sleeping dogs lie for now. 


All the meters amazingly work great now  :-DMM   :-DMM   :-DMM   and up to perfect spec, even with severely corroded battery contacts that are now clean bare metal but do the job fine with no contact resistance issues. 


I would suggest that people check/inspect their battery gadgets every 3 months and have their unused meters parked face up so that if the batteries do leak, it may not get to the board easily. 


Thanks Eveready, saved me a bundle on meters I could never afford, keep up the ummm.. good work!     :-+


Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: SeanB on April 23, 2017, 11:57:02 am
I have some of that batch, and am using them slowly in wall clocks, as there them leaking is not too much of a worry, on a wall clock that costs less than the pack of 8 cells did. Also have some in remote controls, so will have to remember to pull all of them open and check for leaking cells there, but most are now using AAA cells though, and those die a lot faster.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Kuro on April 24, 2017, 02:39:06 pm
All Alkalines seem affected these days, Varta, Energizer, Duracell, GP... Any chance there's a chemical compound that's polluted and they all buy from the same supplier? Or environmental rules that made them swap out a chemical for another, with these results? Or just plain greed (drop quality until customers' dissatisfaction grows to the point it would eat profits)?

A shame standard battery development has ground to a halt, no new tech on the horizon.

BTW, would it make a difference in what position you store alkalines i.e. lying down or standing upright?
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: tablatronix on April 24, 2017, 04:59:46 pm
I thought it was just me, had several devices including my apple mouse, and fluke network analyzer almost ruined last month. Haven't seen a leaked battery in a decade before that. Will never buy energizers or duracell again.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: HighVoltage on April 24, 2017, 05:37:46 pm
I just had a couple Duracell AA batteries ruin my calculator that was not used in years. My fault, because I did not check on the batteries at all.

So, what is the best AA brand that will definitely not leak ?
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: edpalmer42 on April 24, 2017, 07:45:07 pm
I just had a couple Duracell AA batteries ruin my calculator that was not used in years. My fault, because I did not check on the batteries at all.

So, what is the best AA brand that will definitely not leak ?

There's no such thing as a consumer-grade leakproof alkaline battery.  All you can do is get one that's less likely to leak.  Even that is a moving target because I'm sure that the manufacturers are continuously tweaking their seals to make their products more robust.  If you forget about the batteries and leave them for years they will leak.

I have a big box of slightly used AA cells that were rescued from a battery recycling bin some years ago.  In the 'best before 2014' cells, I've got Duracell, Rayovac, Maxell, Panasonic, but no Eveready or Energizer.  In the 'best before 2015' cells, I've got all of the above plus lots of Energizer and Energizer Industrial.  I store them with the bottoms visible so that I can see when they start to get furry and pull them out before they make a mess. 

Looks like the only sure things in life are death, taxes, and leaky batteries.   ::)

Ed
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: mcinque on April 24, 2017, 08:57:13 pm
So, what is the best AA brand that will definitely not leak ?
Lithium technlogy (Enegizer/Varta Lithium)?
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Kilrah on April 24, 2017, 09:45:34 pm
Energizer actually now guarantees their MAX batteries won't leak for 2 years after they're depleted and replace your device if they do.
http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage)

So you should defnitely contact them, pretty funny to have unused ones already rotten. Counterfeits?

And indeed Lithium ones do not suffer from corrosion problems.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: amyk on April 25, 2017, 02:51:44 am
Do I see vent holes and bottom indents? Those don't look like the Energizers I've seen... but then again, I haven't looked at an AA closely for years...

...and this post I've found suggests the bottom indent is actually an Eveready:

http://goughlui.com/2016/12/19/great-aa-alkaline-battery-test-pt-4-cell-physical-characteristics/ (http://goughlui.com/2016/12/19/great-aa-alkaline-battery-test-pt-4-cell-physical-characteristics/)
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: t_ryner on April 25, 2017, 03:15:56 am
:palm:self nuked Enerjizzzer batteries
:-DD
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: helius on April 25, 2017, 03:18:07 am
...and this post I've found suggests the bottom indent is actually an Eveready:
Energizer and Everready are made by the same company. One has the marching rabbit mascot and the other has a black cat. The Everready brand is used for zinc carbon cells and industrial batteries.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: t_ryner on April 25, 2017, 03:19:54 am
Those seem bootleg, as that packaging is not familiar looking.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: edpalmer42 on April 25, 2017, 04:08:02 am
...and this post I've found suggests the bottom indent is actually an Eveready:
Energizer and Everready are made by the same company. One has the marching rabbit mascot and the other has a black cat. The Everready brand is used for zinc carbon cells and industrial batteries.

No, I bought Eveready NiMh and alkaline batteries within the last year or two at retail stores (Target Canada & Canadian Tire, respectively).  Both have the black cat/number 9 logo.  Before I saw them, I would have agreed with you.

As for Energizer vs. Eveready, if memory serves, it started out as Eveready Energizer.  When it became so popular, it was spun off into a seperate company/division/whatever.

Ed
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: SkyMaster on April 25, 2017, 04:15:30 am
Those seem bootleg, as that packaging is not familiar looking.

Europe and Asia often have different battery packaging than North America.

 :)
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: edpalmer42 on April 25, 2017, 04:17:44 am
Those seem bootleg, as that packaging is not familiar looking.

Where's the pink bunny??  Is that character not used in the far east?  http://www.energizer.ca/ (http://www.energizer.ca/)

Ed
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Gary350z on April 25, 2017, 07:08:33 am
and am using them slowly in wall clocks...

That's not going to work. I had two wall clocks destroyed by alkalines. And the clocks were still running. :wtf:
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Jwalling on April 25, 2017, 11:08:19 am
Energizer actually now guarantees their MAX batteries won't leak for 2 years after they're depleted and replace your device if they do.
http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage)

So you should defnitely contact them, pretty funny to have unused ones already rotten. Counterfeits?

And indeed Lithium ones do not suffer from corrosion problems.

The Lithium batteries that came with Agilent 34970A mainframes say otherwise. I've seen ones that leaked in these and had eaten away a trace or two.
I can't remember the maker of the battery...  free_electron has seen this as well.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-34970a-errors-740-741-747-748/msg613607/#msg613607 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-34970a-errors-740-741-747-748/msg613607/#msg613607)

Sometimes, when you de-solder them, you'll get a BANG! when the stuff gets heated up.

Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: mcinque on April 25, 2017, 11:23:55 am
I've seen ones that leaked in these and had eaten away a trace or two.
How old they were? Years? Decades?
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Jwalling on April 25, 2017, 01:30:49 pm
I've seen ones that leaked in these and had eaten away a trace or two.
How old they were? Years? Decades?

Probably a decade or a bit more IIRC.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: james_s on April 25, 2017, 07:03:17 pm
I've heard it suggested that alkaline batteries got a lot more leaky when they went to mercury-free formulations. That does seem like a reasonable hypothesis since that roughly coincides with the era of batteries I first started to notice a large uptick in the number of leaky batteries. I can't point to a specific brand but I've had batteries of all types leak, occasionally new in the package, sometimes even before the "best before" date. Duracell, Energizer, Kirkland, they all seem to leak. AA seems to leak more often than C or D but that may just be because they're so much more common. These days I use Eneloop in most things and cheaper Amazon LSD NiMH in stuff like clocks, remotes, and other infrequently used stuff. NiMH seems fairly robust, I haven't had one leak yet, even a couple of "9V" (8.4V actually) LSD batteries I got from Harbor Freight, I've used them in my Fluke 87 for years.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: mmagin on April 25, 2017, 08:12:02 pm
I've heard it suggested that alkaline batteries got a lot more leaky when they went to mercury-free formulations. That does seem like a reasonable hypothesis since that roughly coincides with the era of batteries I first started to notice a large uptick in the number of leaky batteries. I can't point to a specific brand but I've had batteries of all types leak, occasionally new in the package, sometimes even before the "best before" date. Duracell, Energizer, Kirkland, they all seem to leak. AA seems to leak more often than C or D but that may just be because they're so much more common. These days I use Eneloop in most things and cheaper Amazon LSD NiMH in stuff like clocks, remotes, and other infrequently used stuff. NiMH seems fairly robust, I haven't had one leak yet, even a couple of "9V" (8.4V actually) LSD batteries I got from Harbor Freight, I've used them in my Fluke 87 for years.

This seems plausible.  On the other hand I wonder if it wasn't that the formula per se but was this when they also changed production facilities and lost a bunch of organizational knowledge.  Anyway, I definitely think they're worse than I remember from the 80s and 90s.  Just encountered these from 1986 the other day: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-did-you-buy-today-post-your-latest-purchase!/msg1191650/#msg1191650 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-did-you-buy-today-post-your-latest-purchase)

I also use LSD NiMH or lithium primary batteries now  tin anything where I don't want leakage.  Unfortunately I haven't seen any of the lithium primary 1.5V-nominal batteries in "D" size, which I need for my Simpson meter (I'd rather not use NiMH batteries for how slowly I expect to use them up.)  I suppose I could use one of the AA-to-D adapters sold for Eneloops. At least the Lithium Iron Disulfide's slightly higher voltage seems to be usable with the Simpson ohm meter design.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: james_s on April 25, 2017, 08:24:04 pm
Yeah I don't know the precise cause, but I'm quite sure they are worse overall, it may come down to the same race to the bottom cost cutting that has caused quality to plummet across the board. I'm sure battery manufactures have calculated out the cost of replacing damaged equipment for people who bother to send it in and determined the best compromise from a fiscal standpoint.

For rarely used or non-critical equipment there are cheaper LSD NiMH cells than Eneloop, I think the Amazon Basics cells I have cost about the same as lithium primary cells.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: SkyMaster on April 25, 2017, 11:02:05 pm
Those seem bootleg, as that packaging is not familiar looking.

Where's the pink bunny??  Is that character not used in the far east?  http://www.energizer.ca/ (http://www.energizer.ca/)

Ed

No Energizer bunny in Asia.

http://energizer.asia (http://energizer.asia)


Here is why the Energizer bunny only exist in North America;

The Duracell Bunny was originally trademarked as Rampant Rabbit for use in the U.S. and other countries. Duracell failed to renew its U.S. trademark of the bunny and as a result, lost it. Energizer, seizing an opportunity, trademarked a new bunny for its use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell_Bunny (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell_Bunny)

 :)
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Electro Detective on April 27, 2017, 10:24:33 am
I've noticed smoke detectors doing weird false alarms and indicating faux faults with different batteries used, especially in hot humid conditions.

FWiW standard alkaline Duracell 9v are still reliable for smoke detectors and EMG guitar pickups (till further notice!)

I have also noticed some brands of batteries do not conform size wise and cause connection issues where the positive plus
+ pole or end piece is either not long enough, or the body is too long (and or fat) on AA and AAA batteries.

One can only wonder wtf these 'unemployable in a real job' corpoRATe clowns are up to,
perhaps demanding 'how low can you go Mr. Lo?' prices at the   -One Hung Way Too Low Dragging On Floor-   battery factory ? 

I lost a good low ohm meter a while back to battery BS, the board and selector switch traces eaten beyond recognition =  'not happy Jan..'     |O
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: james_s on April 27, 2017, 03:34:19 pm
If it was damaged beyond repair that seems like a good candidate for sending for the repair or replace offer printed on most better batteries.

I have a few best by 2014 Duracell 9V batteries that are leaking. I also noticed last night that the 9V "heavy duty" type battery in my thermocouple adapter is dated 2006 and still works fine, no sign of leaking. I don't use that very often so it's pretty much down to the shelf life.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: helius on April 27, 2017, 05:57:28 pm
Leclanché cells do not leak as often, probably because ammonium chloride is less corrosive to the case. They have worse self-discharge and capacity.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: WaveyDipole on April 28, 2017, 09:35:12 am
I have seen threads on oter forums on the subject. This was posted on one of them regarding Duracell batteries:

https://thecounterfeitreport.com/product/106/

I had many Duracells leak in the last couple of years, but since I haven't been buying them for some time, I don't think I have any left to check whether mine were counterfeit.

In situations where longevity and avoiding corrosion are required, I am beginning to wonder whether the safest bet for expensive instruments and equipment is to use the new equivalent Lithium cells? They are still comparatively expensive so I will not be replacing en-masse in a hurry but I might start by changing the ones in my Fluke and replacing others as the expire.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: james_s on April 28, 2017, 03:38:57 pm
Just use LSD NiMH, they're about the same price as the lithium primary cells and you can recharge them. I've yet to have one leak.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: Electro Detective on April 29, 2017, 12:44:46 am
Hopefully not too Off Topic:   :blah:   :rant:

Another gnash to complement the latest russian roulette battery nuke crisis, is those ANNOYING small foam battery nudgers stuck on to the multimeter battery covers that deteriorate badly, and turn into flakey, powdery, sticky slimey gunk. 

They shrink/compress, which defeats their purpose for being 'stuck' in there,   :--
and being sticky tend to grip/drag AAA or AA batteries slightly out of their proper contact range, at random.

This can result in a free entertainment intermission on a ballbreak troubleshoot job, with the meter readings playing up depending on how you hold it/switch between ranges/placed on bench etc,
and intermittent standup guest appearances by Mr. Low Battery Warning.

I remove and clean all foam battery nudgers (on Flukes especially).
On a couple of meters the crud actually etched into the Fluke tough plastic,
resorted to medieval scraping, finished with fine steel wool for aesthetics.

I remove them on new gear too because it's the same crap waiting to bite, and easier to get off when new with fingernails or nylon tool.   

I replace with something appropriate that conforms better physically, has good springiness and recovery to keep batteries where they should be, and lasts for ages without turning into swamp quicksand.

IMO the foam decay vapor over time can't be doing any tight sealed meter any internal favors either. 

Get in early, because it's a hassle performing a major clean up of this sticky moldy foam, especially if mixed with badly leaked batteries. 

Crossed fingers the expensive meter will still work, and hold spec after cleanup and a few shots and chasers at the local Isopropyl Pub.  :phew:

 
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: SeanB on April 29, 2017, 01:24:36 pm
and am using them slowly in wall clocks...

That's not going to work. I had two wall clocks destroyed by alkalines. And the clocks were still running. :wtf:


Remember, the clock from the Fong kong shop is cheaper than the batteries.
Title: Re: YARA - Yet Another Rotten Alkalines ... sigh
Post by: james_s on April 29, 2017, 04:23:05 pm
I also had two clock movements destroyed by leaky batteries. Mine were radio controlled "atomic" movements. Not super expensive but not dirt cheap either. Mine were also both still running.