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General => General Chat => Topic started by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 12:07:25 am

Title: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 12:07:25 am
If you need to lock this I understand, just super excited, someone posted a hobby arc welder for $50 on kijiji, I'm broke, but emailed him to see if maybe he needed a newer PC or some computer/electronics work done as a trade, turns out he needs a newer desktop, and the core 2 duo flat style (not tower) Lenovo works for him!

Best of all, it's 120v, standard plug, so no need for 20 or 30 amp sockets (though this place actually does have a couple 20 amp ones), and it comes with rods, a brush, and a helmet! The helmet even has the plastic cling stuck on the visor (though he says he used the welder a couple times, maybe with another helmet, or he just left it on  :-//)

Anyways, super excited about this, I've wanted a welder for ages, already fairly familiar with the basics, but this is going to massively open up what I will be able to do! I will need to pick up a handheld grinding or whatever those things with the coarse discs are to clean up welds though.

It's great that it's an arc welder since I won't need gas or big reels of wire, I think this is a much cheaper (though harder to use) option.

But hey, how hard can it be? It's just like soldering but bigger :P

(I know I could have made one with some MOT's and a car battery a long time ago, but never really had any car batteries sitting around, plus you would not be able to control the current.)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 02:52:44 am
Hmmm, I will need much cleaner metal than the old road sign I have had for 8+ years. Even with a wire brush it's hard to spark it.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: GEuser on July 23, 2014, 03:56:46 am
What's the open circuit voltage at the ends?

Rusty/dirty metal is no problem with a arc and the choice of a rod matters greatly but just for home stuff there is generally no problem ..
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 04:27:38 am
What's the open circuit voltage at the ends?

Rusty/dirty metal is no problem with a arc and the choice of a rod matters greatly but just for home stuff there is generally no problem ..

Don't have it nearby, it can go up to 70 amps, I was keeping it around 20 to not blow the breaker, but a short while ago I took it up to 50 amps or so and it did spark fairly well (I did wirebrush it as well but it kept going through the dirt), it did not bond with the metal well though, a gentle tap with a wrench or the metal tip of the brush and it breaks right off. The sign might be made of stainless, not sure if that would have much of an affect. It's tricky getting it going well though, and if you slow down to try and get more material it's pretty easy for it to stick to the work piece.

I did do a successful weld, joining a welding rod to a piece of pipe  ::)

I want to get an auto darkening helmet, that would help a lot but they are minimum $89 around here, and that's on sale. It will be over $100 for one of the cheaper ones, it will be a while until I can get that.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 04:29:36 am
Oh shit wait, I remembered, I'm pulling, but I should be pushing the rod, right?  |O
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: deth502 on July 23, 2014, 04:31:29 am
is the road sign aluminum? (most all in the us are, idk about canada) if so, you need special rods to stick weld aluminjum, and it is not easy at all, and that is a huge understatment.

rods must be kept dry and if left in an open enviornment will quickly absorb moisture from the humidity in the air and become useless. as the rod burns, the electrode melts up inside as the exterior flux is burned off and acts asa sheilding gas. if you stop a bead, you will need to give the rod a good hit against the steel to break off the ring of flux in front of the electrode to strike an arc again. ive never seen a 120v stick welder, and i have my suspicions as to how much current it could actually produce, so idk if id say that you dont need a 20 or 30 amp breaker for it. you will also likely have to stay pretty thin with your rod selection. and lastly, its NOTHING like soldering. my advice, if you get a chance, try some oxy acet welding. you dont hve the huge bright arc and you can see your weld puddle and get a good view of the entire process. i think all of my welding processes improved greatly once i started o-a welding.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: deth502 on July 23, 2014, 04:34:16 am
pulling or pushing will work, depending on the job at hand. also, check out the duty cycle on it. this being an electronics forum, i dont think i have to explain duty cycle to you. they usually go by 10 minute intervals. (ie, 40%= 4 min welding, 6 min cooling)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 04:36:59 am
is the road sign aluminum? (most all in the us are, idk about canada) if so, you need special rods to stick weld aluminjum, and it is not easy at all, and that is a huge understatment.

rods must be kept dry and if left in an open enviornment will quickly absorb moisture from the humidity in the air and become useless. as the rod burns, the electrode melts up inside as the exterior flux is burned off and acts asa sheilding gas. if you stop a bead, you will need to give the rod a good hit against the steel to break off the ring of flux in front of the electrode to strike an arc again. ive never seen a 120v stick welder, and i have my suspicions as to how much current it could actually produce, so idk if id say that you dont need a 20 or 30 amp breaker for it. you will also likely have to stay pretty thin with your rod selection. and lastly, its NOTHING like soldering. my advice, if you get a chance, try some oxy acet welding. you dont hve the huge bright arc and you can see your weld puddle and get a good view of the entire process. i think all of my welding processes improved greatly once i started o-a welding.

Not sure, the sign feels more like it would be steel of some description.

Don't really think there are any places around here I could try out welding without enrolling in a college class, not really much around here for diy at all sadly :/

pulling or pushing will work, depending on the job at hand. also, check out the duty cycle on it. this being an electronics forum, i dont think i have to explain duty cycle to you. they usually go by 10 minute intervals. (ie, 40%= 4 min welding, 6 min cooling)

Ah, alright, just figured by the small amount of material from the bead pushing is wrong but considering it doesn't really bond well I guess that would make sense.

I need to get some scrap steel or something, I do have a large square frame with post from the 12 foot satellite dish I took down though I would like to leave that as intact as possible, don't really have anything to weld to it anyways, and no way to cut it to get practice pieces.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: GEuser on July 23, 2014, 04:43:21 am
What's the open circuit voltage at the ends?

Rusty/dirty metal is no problem with a arc and the choice of a rod matters greatly but just for home stuff there is generally no problem ..

Don't have it nearby, it can go up to 70 amps, I was keeping it around 20 to not blow the breaker, but a short while ago I took it up to 50 amps or so and it did spark fairly well (I did wirebrush it as well but it kept going through the dirt), it did not bond with the metal well though, a gentle tap with a wrench or the metal tip of the brush and it breaks right off. The sign might be made of stainless, not sure if that would have much of an affect. It's tricky getting it going well though, and if you slow down to try and get more material it's pretty easy for it to stick to the work piece.

I did do a successful weld, joining a welding rod to a piece of pipe  ::)

I want to get an auto darkening helmet, that would help a lot but they are minimum $89 around here, and that's on sale. It will be over $100 for one of the cheaper ones, it will be a while until I can get that.

Poke around utube to look at vision of the pointy bit when welding , backwards/forwards/sideways all depends on what your doing at the time and what is needed and position .

As someone has mentioned arc is for similar metals (steel to steel and not steel to alum) , but in typing that there are rods around that can do quite a lot even cutting but read them as expensive .
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: calexanian on July 23, 2014, 05:37:07 am
Start with thinner rods and keep them dry. Sometimes you should toss a few in the oven to dry them out before use. Smaller rods will help you get the pace down. When your pool is right you are dipping the stick into the melted pool and dragging a pool along effectively, and not jamming it into the steel. Invest in a cheap angle grinder with good quality cutting (Thin) and grinding (Thick) discs. Beveled clean edges weld better. Plenty of tutorials online. Just look on Lincolns website as they are still the bees knees for stick welders.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 05:43:22 am
Calling it a night, based on some of the videos I'm watching I think the road sign is aluminum, it just doesn't feel like it at all. Welding on steel looks waaaay different.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: pickle9000 on July 23, 2014, 05:58:08 am
If you have a Princess nearby.

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/Helmets/Fixed-Shade-Auto-Darkening-Welding-Helmet/8511578.p (http://www.princessauto.com/pal/Helmets/Fixed-Shade-Auto-Darkening-Welding-Helmet/8511578.p)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 06:11:00 am
If you have a Princess nearby.

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/Helmets/Fixed-Shade-Auto-Darkening-Welding-Helmet/8511578.p (http://www.princessauto.com/pal/Helmets/Fixed-Shade-Auto-Darkening-Welding-Helmet/8511578.p)

We do, princessauto.ca didn't have much though. That is really good though, and would be a huge help.

update while editing: seems they might have that one here (would have to call in and check), which would be awesome, except that I am flat broke. Below that actually.  :-\

Couldn't help myself, this is one of those things that will give me trouble going to sleep, went back out, grabbed the shell from an old power supply, dialed the amps to a bit below 40, and tried it out a bit more. It's a lot better, I welded a small split where the case was bent together, and it wasn't too bad, though seemed a bit dark.

This stuff is super think though and does warp easily. The rods I have are 1/16th.

Anyways, put an ad up looking for scrap metal to practice. We'll see if I get any bites. Accidentally looked down a bit and got some flash from below the helmet, my eyes are mildly ache-y but that could be from being up so damn long as well. Who knows.

I also need to get some sleeves, there are some on kijiji for $25, but auto darkening would be much better, the occasional little hot spark that lasts a fraction of a second isn't really bothering me, plus it only happens if I run the rod down really low.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: pickle9000 on July 23, 2014, 06:18:22 am
The masks are on sale all the time. A small grinder (not a dremel) is very handy. You can lay tracks and spots on the inside of computer cases, the thin material is good to practice on.

Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: GEuser on July 23, 2014, 07:13:31 am
Calling it a night, based on some of the videos I'm watching I think the road sign is aluminum, it just doesn't feel like it at all. Welding on steel looks waaaay different.

A Magnet , or a File ..

Come on now , your in the hobby of electronics and it spans across practically everything , metals just for starters ...

Got any car wrecks close by? cut cut cut cut ....
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: G7PSK on July 23, 2014, 07:30:18 am
Go to a nearby fabrication shop and see if they have any off cuts you can have, they will bin most off cuts as otherwise they get over run with them go for thicker stuff to learn on 3/16 or 1/4 inch would be best nothing below 1/8 at first as you will have trouble. practice first with a right angle fillet weld and a butt weld, when doing the butt place the metal about a 1/2 thickness apart. Is your welder AC or DC output you need DC for welding aluminium with rods reversed polarity as well, for welding steel with a small welder stay away from basic rods as they need a high OC voltage use cellosic rods, you can tell if you have those as they smell like burning wood when running them, the flux is made from wood pulp whereas basic ones use limestone as the main ingredient.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: deth502 on July 23, 2014, 09:51:22 am
saw something about an antenna tower or some such?? most of them i saw wer galvanized steel.

DO NOT WELD GALVANIZED STEEL!!

well, you can, but you have to grind all of the coating off, do it in a WELL ventilated area, and even then you are still at risk. the fumes given of when the galvanized coating is burning is DEADLY.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: houdini on July 23, 2014, 10:46:04 am
I would recommend pulling for stick welding pushing just mixes the slag into the weld.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: GEuser on July 23, 2014, 10:54:38 am
Also it'd pay to look at this welder gizmo first too I reckon , check on the isolation from mains input to rod output , I can just imagine standing on damp concrete changing a rod and >>>>>>>>
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 12:50:42 pm
saw something about an antenna tower or some such?? most of them i saw wer galvanized steel.

DO NOT WELD GALVANIZED STEEL!!

well, you can, but you have to grind all of the coating off, do it in a WELL ventilated area, and even then you are still at risk. the fumes given of when the galvanized coating is burning is DEADLY.

Yeah, I think that most computer cases are galvanized, so I don't know how that will work.

woot

id love to see pics of your experiments, take pics, alot of pics. doesnt matter if they are botched. i bet those with experience have a better way to give tips on what is wrong after seeing pics. :D

Probably lol, I do really need an auto darkening helmet though. On a big thing I can just start arcs to get light to see where I am but accuracy is terrible. I might set up my phone on a tripod and make a couple videos of my failures  ;D If I get an auto darkening helmet I will probably tear the lens out of the cheap one to record through, that way people can advice on the technique.

Calling it a night, based on some of the videos I'm watching I think the road sign is aluminum, it just doesn't feel like it at all. Welding on steel looks waaaay different.

A Magnet , or a File ..

Come on now , your in the hobby of electronics and it spans across practically everything , metals just for starters ...

Got any car wrecks close by? cut cut cut cut ....


No car wrecks sadly, and nothing to really cut lol, but we do have some metal working shops, I'll call them to see if they have scraps.


Also I'm fairly sure it is DC output on this one, don't recall seeing it, but I did just wake up  :=\
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 01:00:22 pm
Pretty sure this was galvanized, lots of white residue, somewhat flakey on the back side, kind of figured it was yesterday.

Anyways, that's where I was messing about a little, that's the road sign face down as a work surface.

A couple weld attempts, the long one was the first, and I didn't really get the material between the two pieces so I had to go again, but the short corner one was one go.

Also turns out this one is AC, not DC output.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2cfxqf9.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/28mcwnc.jpg)

I wish I had a jerry can nearby, I would have put it on the table for the picture to mess with you guys :p
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: GEuser on July 23, 2014, 01:23:51 pm
Jerry can Ha Ha Ha Ha , I won't mention my experiences with things that have "Whoooomhed" ..

All ok on that welder , I thought it was a homemade kit thing so it looks like it'll have no dramas by the looks of it ..

Those welds are terrible , even for a beginner (I'm razzing you) , back in my day we would have had to push the broom around the workshop for a week if that had happened but I did have real real good mentors to get clipped around the ear by , and in typing that previous bit practice will sort you out as it sounds AND looks like you got the brains , now you just gotta get the brains to co-ordinate with the hands and eyes ...

Good luck and fun ...
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 01:36:07 pm
Jerry can Ha Ha Ha Ha , I won't mention my experiences with things that have "Whoooomhed" ..

All ok on that welder , I thought it was a homemade kit thing so it looks like it'll have no dramas by the looks of it ..

Those welds are terrible , even for a beginner (I'm razzing you) , back in my day we would have had to push the broom around the workshop for a week if that had happened but I did have real real good mentors to get clipped around the ear by , and in typing that previous bit practice will sort you out as it sounds AND looks like you got the brains , now you just gotta get the brains to co-ordinate with the hands and eyes ...

Good luck and fun ...

Apparently the Chicago electric brand (what this is) is sort of the harbor freight of welders. Didn't cost me anything so better than nothing lol.

The long weld on that image is where I arced a bunch to try and find the small one since it was bad anyways lol. I have pretty good hand-eye co-ordination, it's just a pain not being able to see the start position.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: dfmischler on July 23, 2014, 03:43:33 pm
Apparently the Chicago electric brand (what this is) is sort of the harbor freight of welders.
Actually, it is literally the Harbor Freight house brand.

Quote
The long weld on that image is where I arced a bunch to try and find the small one since it was bad anyways lol. I have pretty good hand-eye co-ordination, it's just a pain not being able to see the start position.
The head nod that arc welders always used to lower the helmet before starting was one of the hardest things for beginners to do well without losing their place.  An auto-darkening helmet will help a lot.  I have a pretty nice Optrel helmet that I use at work, but my Harbor Freight helmet at home works OK.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: SeanB on July 23, 2014, 03:59:21 pm
Funny enough I had a coded welder out yesterday to come weld a shaft back together that fatigued.Solid 304 stainless plug as a inner reinforcement, and a whole lot of TIG welding later and it is as good as before. Took him about 2 hours in total to do the entire 60mm pipe, as we did not want it to get too hot, and did not want to quench it. Failure was from manufacture where they had ground off a weld and redone it leaving a sharp point that acted as a stress concentrator, and it eventually fatigued through. I bought 5kg of stainless solid rod, and it was under 4kg when it came off the lathe to get it to the right size where it went into the pipe using only a little "gentle persuasion" and a lot of filing of damaged edges.

Well done on the chicken scratching, a little practise and you will be better and do decent welds. Tip is to not be too fast, and to realise that you will use rod at an incredible pace to fill, it will look like you are just pushing it down and barely moving, but that is what is needed to make a good join. Look at the tips from Weldingtipsandtricks on Youtube, Jody is pretty good at explaining and showing you how to start as a beginner, just look for his videos on using a MMA welder.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 04:18:53 pm
Apparently the Chicago electric brand (what this is) is sort of the harbor freight of welders.
Actually, it is literally the Harbor Freight house brand.

Quote
The long weld on that image is where I arced a bunch to try and find the small one since it was bad anyways lol. I have pretty good hand-eye co-ordination, it's just a pain not being able to see the start position.
The head nod that arc welders always used to lower the helmet before starting was one of the hardest things for beginners to do well without losing their place.  An auto-darkening helmet will help a lot.  I have a pretty nice Optrel helmet that I use at work, but my Harbor Freight helmet at home works OK.

Oh, I'm just lowering it by hand lol.

During the day it's bright enough I can barely see the outline of the metal with the light through the window, a bit bright worklight would probably help. Auto darkening would still be way better though. The space that you can see out of seems kind of small, like the one linked earlier in the thread, but considering I can't see out of the big one anyways it's not really an issue  :P

Interesting that it's here in Canada, we don't have harbor freight here. Maybe princess auto carries this brand too.


Also a scrap yard here has lots of 1/4" steel plate and similar, $.25 a pound, and I think I have enough on me to get 12 pounds or so, that will probably be a decent bit to start practicing on  :-//

At some point I do want to get larger rods but this small ones are fine for now I guess. Just seems that it might be annoying to stop halfway through a weld to change them out.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: dfmischler on July 23, 2014, 04:29:06 pm
Beware that you might not actually have enough current output to use larger rod effectively, especially at a useful duty cycle (Harbor Freight site says 70 A at 20% duty cycle for 115V input, and recommends 1/16 to 3/32 rod).  In, say, 6013 you should have around 115 A or more for 1/8" (3.2mm) rod (this varies some by manufacturer).  Good quality rod (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/US/EN/literature/c2410.pdf) makes a big difference.  My main arc welder is a Miller Dialarc 250 AC/DC (http://www.millerwelds.com/products/stick/dialarc_250_ac_dc/) (got it for $100 US) and I don't push anything bigger than 1/8" 7018 rod.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 04:42:01 pm
Beware that you might not actually have enough current output to use larger rod effectively.  In, say, 6013 you should have around 115 A or more for 1/8" (3.2mm) rod (this varies some by manufacturer).  Good quality rod (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/US/EN/literature/c2410.pdf) makes a big difference.  My main arc welder is a Miller Dialarc 250 AC/DC (http://www.millerwelds.com/products/stick/dialarc_250_ac_dc/) (got it for $100 US) and I don't push anything bigger than 1/8" 7018 rod.

ahh, dang. Yeah the tutorial I watched had the guy using 100+ amps for the whole thing, I probably won't be able to run 6013 then.

These rods I have are marked for 20-45 amps though, and I mean, they probably aren't too much, the welds might not be one constant pretty thing but they will still work if I have to use more than one.

Also how the hell did you get that for only $100? sheesh
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: dfmischler on July 23, 2014, 04:52:53 pm
ahh, dang. Yeah the tutorial I watched had the guy using 100+ amps for the whole thing, I probably won't be able to run 6013 then.
6013 is a pretty good rod for thin material.  It is easily available down to 1/16", and you can use that below 70 A.  It is much easier to avoid burning holes in thin material with thin rods (or wire feed MIG/flux core).

Quote
Also how the hell did you get that for only $100? sheesh
The guy who had it was ready to get rid of it, and brought it over for me to try out.  I had to promise I would weld his stuff for free when he shows up.  That's been twice in the last 3 years.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 05:10:32 pm
ahh, dang. Yeah the tutorial I watched had the guy using 100+ amps for the whole thing, I probably won't be able to run 6013 then.
6013 is a pretty good rod for thin material.  It is easily available down to 1/16", and you can use that below 70 A.  It is much easier to avoid burning holes in thin material with thin rods (or wire feed MIG/flux core).

Quote
Also how the hell did you get that for only $100? sheesh
The guy who had it was ready to get rid of it, and brought it over for me to try out.  I had to promise I would weld his stuff for free when he shows up.  That's been twice in the last 3 years.

Please hold while I rip my own heart out and eat it due to jealousy.

I figured 6013 also meant the size, not just a type of material lol. still loads to learn   :P
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: SeanB on July 23, 2014, 06:01:39 pm
I bought 2 at Makro ( now Wallyworld) as shop demo models, and talked them down to $45 each.  Nice OHL inverter welders, and gave one away to a fellow HAM who can actually weld, but has limited income as he is on a fixed pension. He loves it. I have used it a little to weld, and it beats the buzzbox welder in every respect aside from the ability to run from really crappy power from a generator. Light, strikes easily and welds at a higher current with tight control. Welded galvanised steel and it was perfect aside from making a giant pool of zinc oxide. It was outdoors doing washing lines, so no fumes to worry about.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 06:52:57 pm
Bleh. Well this stuff is 6013, just super thin, it flexes a lot, and barely puts out any materiel. If I try to go slowly it usually just sticks to the bit I'm trying to weld to. It also seems to have barely any penetration for stuff this thick (as you will see)

Anyways, got $15 of scrap metal from a nearby scrapyard.

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2hguxdj.jpg)

Decent bit of stuff to try, I first decided to try and weld these bits together.

(http://i60.tinypic.com/11aftko.jpg)

It seemed kind of good, looked not too terrible in some spots, however after letting it cool for a good 10 minutes, maybe 15, gave it a drop on the floor and it broke right apart. More passes would probably be good, but also something with more penetration and that puts out more material.

Back side of it sucked.

(http://i59.tinypic.com/chxud.jpg)

Decided to just try and do beads for a bit, it's a bit of a pain to get started, even with the metal wire brushed to be a bit cleaner, and the flex gets annoying, I don't have a jacket or anything, so I am using one hand, can't really brace myself and it moves a decent bit. Looking at it though it seems to have the right pattern to it, just smaller. I found that it sort of just floats along once you get it in a good position.

(http://i60.tinypic.com/8zecdx.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/214e3hi.jpg)


But yeah, basically I am pretty sure I need to get some bigger stuff than this 1/16th inch. A grinder would really be good too because as of right now I don't have a way to remove the old welds and try again
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: SeanB on July 23, 2014, 07:02:02 pm
Turn them over and use the other side. You need to move slower, and move the tip of the rod where the arc is in small circles, so that the puddle you make looks like a tipped stack of coins on the top of the metal. Needs practise and you will improve. You can also just try making a weld puddle in a small area and use that to practise holding the arc steady and learn how to feed the rod in with time.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: deth502 on July 23, 2014, 07:40:27 pm
cleanliness is your best friend. nothing ruins a weld faster than dirt or rust in the weld. make sure your base metals are clean. get yourself a chipping hammer and a wire brush, if you have to stop in the middle of a bead to change a rod, chiip off the slag with the chipping hammer and brush it clean before you continue your weld on top of it.

welding spped and rod speed are 2 different things. as was said, move along the bead slowly, but keep the rod tip moving at a good steady pace. make small circles. if you move the rod tip slow, you will stick the rod.

there are many, many, many different techniques to use depending on your situation. (like push or pull, as youve already found out) the angle you hold the rod to the joint also makes a big difference. if your making a 90 deg corner with a piece of 1/8" to a piece of 1/4" plate, you will want to angle the rod more to the side of the 1/4" material, to direct more of the heat to that piece. ect...ect...ect...

you are NOT putting a bead of weld down to hold pieces together, if thats the way you look at it you will fail. its not like laying down a bead of caulking. what you are doiung is melting the base metals on both sides together (along with the filler) to join them. turn the power down so you can see the arc really well, watch the puddle. watch your base metals melt and flow together. this is what you need to get a good weld. a fast weld bead ran over the surface that does not get good penetration (ie, not melting into the base metal) you will never get a good weld.

also, careful with the auto darkening helmet. dont go cheap, your vision is worth way more than a few hundred dollars. i bought an auto darkening helmet at work for $300, loved it so much i got myself a cheap $80 one. i can weld all day long at work, at home, if i weld more than about 2 hrs, i start to feel flash. the difference is the switching speed. on a cheaper helmet that few extra micro seconds that you get exposed is not even noticable at the time, but the effects are cumulitive.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 07:52:13 pm
Well shit, the blue flame one that has a 1/5000th second reaction time is out of stock, there is a black one, not on sale, but for $50, that has a larger viewing area, but I think is slower? (.3ms) and it's $50. Blue flame one actually looks pretty neat which is the sad part, but the other one they have over 100 of in stock.

I won't be able to afford that for a while anyways, just such a damn pain to see where I am starting.  :-\
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: dfmischler on July 23, 2014, 07:54:43 pm
Your weld beads look cold to me.  I think you need more penetration.  If that is 6013 then you have the current set too low, or you are moving too fast, or your arc is too short.  IIRC 6013 is not really a contact electrode (like 6010); there should be a little space between the work and the electrode.  A longer arc is hotter, so to some extent you can control the welding temperature at a given current setting by varying the length of the arc.  And while 6010 or 6011 really doesn't care too much about rust you will get better welds with 6013 if the metal is cleaner.

Make sure you wear long sleeves and gloves to protect yourself from both spatter and radiation.  You can get a nasty arc burn.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: deth502 on July 23, 2014, 08:11:47 pm
Well shit, the blue flame one that has a 1/5000th second reaction time is out of stock, there is a black one, not on sale, but for $50, that has a larger viewing area, but I think is slower? (.3ms) and it's $50. Blue flame one actually looks pretty neat which is the sad part, but the other one they have over 100 of in stock.

I won't be able to afford that for a while anyways, just such a damn pain to see where I am starting.  :-\

yeah, the prices might be lower now, this was years ago when i bought them, but the message stays the same, make sure you get  quality one with good specs. dont skimp on it. there IS a difference, they are not all the same.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 08:59:11 pm
Trued running some slower beads, think I am getting a bit better at that, but I really do need some bigger rods than these, you eat these ones up amazingly quickly, and something bigger would have a larger pool so that I could see it better without putting my face against it :p

I turned up the current a bit more (it won't run at full 70 for some reason) and the arcing is definitely noticeable now, I couldn't hold an arc at any distance when it was set for 40 amps or so.

There is also another crappy attempt I made, and it actually held together fairly well for a few good whacks lol.

At around half of the rods I got total I'd guess, maybe 20-30 left. Didn't bother counting. It's $6.99 for 5/64th welding rods, 1.12 pounds, and $11.99 for the 1/16th ones I have, 1.1 pounds.

I've never bothered to measure in that sort of way before, I know it's of an inch, but aside from that, clueless lol. Rated for higher current though but idk if they would be thicker or not, or what the diameter in mm would be.


(http://i62.tinypic.com/ic8bqv.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/3517nds.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/5als9e.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2llozz5.jpg)

(yes, that is instant snow, and no, don't know why I keep it around. It was a couple bucks a month or two after winter, so I grabbed it lol)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 09:37:19 pm
hmm damn, there are 1/8th ones, but those are 80-120 amps and my welder won't get near that :-\ it sucks because those ones are cheaper than the pack of 1/16th ones. I'd either need a better welder or a 120v to 230v inverter to get more current out of it, if the inverter could handle it.

Guess I will just have to settle for thin stuff.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2014, 10:03:01 pm
Quote
Guess I will just have to settle for thin stuff.
No you don't.
I've been welding for 40 years.
Experiment with prep and practice.
A good rule of thumb is to bevel joints to the thickness of your electrode.
That way weld penetration is complete. Even bevel from both sides.
The thickness of the jobs you can handle is only limited by time available and your skill.

There is much to learn re technique and steel types.
Resist welding too wider beads as the shrinkage after cooling can distort your work.

Get some "easy to weld with" electrodes until your skill improves.
They will leave smooth beads that will give you confidence.

Philips 68, Satincraft to name a couple from this part of the world.
Any good engineering shop should guide you, just explain you skill level.

Even with a small welder I would not hesitate welding up to 1" thick with the correct prep
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 23, 2014, 10:16:46 pm
Quote
Guess I will just have to settle for thin stuff.
No you don't.
I've been welding for 40 years.
Experiment with prep and practice.
A good rule of thumb is to bevel joints to the thickness of your electrode.
That way weld penetration is complete. Even bevel from both sides.
The thickness of the jobs you can handle is only limited by time available and your skill.

There is much to learn re technique and steel types.
Resist welding too wider beads as the shrinkage after cooling can distort your work.

Get some "easy to weld with" electrodes until your skill improves.
They will leave smooth beads that will give you confidence.

Philips 68, Satincraft to name a couple from this part of the world.
Any good engineering shop should guide you, just explain you skill level.

Even with a small welder I would not hesitate welding up to 1" thick with the correct prep

I meant thin electrodes, but good advice nonetheless :p
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: Monkeh on July 24, 2014, 12:25:17 am
saw something about an antenna tower or some such?? most of them i saw wer galvanized steel.

DO NOT WELD GALVANIZED STEEL!!

well, you can, but you have to grind all of the coating off, do it in a WELL ventilated area, and even then you are still at risk. the fumes given of when the galvanized coating is burning is DEADLY.

Pure zinc galvanising is not exactly deadly, it will suck though. Continual exposure to any welding fumes is unhealthy, however. Appropriate masks are cheap and widely available, and should be worn even when not welding plated metals.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: Hex173t on July 24, 2014, 12:32:08 pm
Right, welding on galvanized is not deadly.  I've done it and will do it again.  The thing about it though, and maybe it's just me reacting to the vapors, is the next day I usually feel like a have a bit of flu.  Lol, I know it will happen but that's tomorrow Bill's problem.  Today Bill is too lazy to grind.

I can't remember the mask number but there is a respiration mask with low profile filters that you can wear under the welding helmet. 
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: Monkeh on July 24, 2014, 01:13:19 pm
Right, welding on galvanized is not deadly.  I've done it and will do it again.  The thing about it though, and maybe it's just me reacting to the vapors, is the next day I usually feel like a have a bit of flu.  Lol, I know it will happen but that's tomorrow Bill's problem.  Today Bill is too lazy to grind.

I can't remember the mask number but there is a respiration mask with low profile filters that you can wear under the welding helmet.

It's called metal fume fever. Pure zinc is, for limited exposure, not going to do anything but make you feel like shit. Other metals mixed in could however cause more harm.

Normal welding can and will have the same effect with continual exposure, masks and fume extraction are your friend..
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 24, 2014, 02:43:55 pm
Hmm, the $50 helmet is 100% solar power whereas the $40 on sale one is solar with battery backup, it just makes me think is there a chance where solar will fail and that is where the battery backup can help protect your vision? They are both fully automatic on/off
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: TerraHertz on July 24, 2014, 03:22:17 pm
They charged you $15 for that scrap steel?   Hmmm. Try googling scrap steel prices. Or you can phone scrap metal yards and see what they'll give you per ton if they are buying. Tell them you have a trailer load of old structural steel. They'll quote something like 10c to 20c a pound, I think.

In any case, now you know you want bits of old steel, just keep your eyes open. Scrap steel is actually free, since it's so cheap it's often not worth people's time and petrol to haul to a recycler.
Another source is new steel sellers - they will have a scraps bin, that they send to recyclers and get that crummy price per pound. Plus it will be nice clean new scraps, not rusty old crap.

Your welds are improving fairly rapidly. I'd suggest finding a 2nd hand bookstore that does technical books, looking for some old welding texts. They have a lot more detail than youtube videos.

You made it a bit hard for yourself starting with a small welder and sticks, on thick steel. Yes, can be done, but you're having trouble getting a hot enough arc to form a decent molten pool. The thicker the base metal the faster it sucks heat away. Hence your beads are high and thin, mostly with little penetration.  You'd do a lot better on steel between 1 and 3 mm thick.

Also, live with the visor you have, and FIRST get yourself an angle grinder and these disks:
 * Face grinding disks. For making bumps flat.
 * Thin cutting disks. These are about 1 to 2 mm thick. Used to cut steel to pieces. Like butter.
 * A paint and dirt stripper wheel. Seriously, welding clean metal is a whole different experience to welding rusty/dirty/painted steel.

Don't get a small grinder, get at least a 127mm dia wheel size. It doesn't need to be new, try 2nd hand shops/ebay/etc.
Make sure you get disks for steel - there are different types for non-ferrous and masonry grinding.
Oh, and hey, you do have thick leather long sleeve welding gloves, right?
A chipping hammer will be cheap, and very useful too.

One bit of advice. Do not do welding/grinding in the same room as any electronics, or anything delicate at all really. Little metal filings get into everything, and are ruination to circuit boards. Hot spatters will melt into anything they hit. Including glass.  if you MUST do metalwork in a room with other stuff, get some big sheets of cardboard or thin MDF, that you can prop up as spark shields.
Also DO NOT:
 - Wear synthetic sneakers while welding. Wait till you get a big molten spatter melted through the upper, then you'll see why not.
 - Leave any bare skin exposed to the arc UV. Sunburn is just a word that you don't know the meaning of, till you get a welding sunburn.
 - Use an angle grinder without hearing protection and good eye protection.
 - Have any tins or plastic bottles of flammables around. Weld spatters can burn into them. Or piles of paper, shavings, etc - obviously.

Why do you have a full syringe of cat worming paste propping up a cable in one of your pics?

Here's my recent story of welding troubles:  http://everist.org/NobLog/20140717_poorly_laid_plans.htm (http://everist.org/NobLog/20140717_poorly_laid_plans.htm)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 24, 2014, 03:49:52 pm
Yeah, all my electronics work is done in my room, the welder is in the garage.

It was $.25 a pound for that steel, it doesn't look like a whole lot but it does weight a decent bit. I did check on kijiji first but there wasn't much in the way of scrap.

There is an old book store in this area, I bought loads, loads of old archie comics a long time ago from there for really cheap, and some nice Isaac Asimov novels. They probably have some welding stuff.

Phoned a bunch of welding and fabrication shops and didn't really get much, a couple told me to phone the scrap yard that I went to later that day.

The 5/64th welding sticks are 1.98mm or so apparently, and these are 1.76 so I think that will help a bit, but that's pretty much as thick as I can go with this one.


There is an old (1 month) kijiji ad with a 100 or so mm angle grinder for $50, not sure if he has it still or not.

No welding gloves or anything, there is an add with some jackets for $50 or so and some sleeves for $25. I am just welding in a tshirt, cotton shirt and jeans for now. (did not think about the weld burn, but right now I just go out for a couple minutes to give it a try then take a break)

I am using partially synthetic sneakers that are steel toes but I do have some leather steel toe boots somewhere that I plan on using, but right now the sign sticks out enough from the table to keep sparks from dropping down.

Also, cat worming paste? Don't have any of that. There are a couple tubes of thermal compound but those are just laying around since I haven't put them away yet. No chipping hammer, just a brush with a metal bit, but I do have a couple old hammers around that I could sue the nail puller on if I need to.


All in all it comes down to still needing money for this stuff, as it is the next $100 I make or so will have to go to a family member since the helped me foot the bills this month. Sigh.

So tired of getting interviews then not hearing back. Went for an interview at future shop to install car audio, and sure I don't know much about that specifically but I do know about electronics. They said that my computer repair "business" on kijiji could be a problem though since they do stuff like that at the store, I said I know, and I would stop if I got the job, it's just to pay bills on the months where I make enough but they didn't seem to get it.

Like, how am I supposed to pay bills when I am looking for a job then, f**k.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: Monkeh on July 24, 2014, 04:10:26 pm
There is an old (1 month) kijiji ad with a 100 or so mm angle grinder for $50, not sure if he has it still or not.

Better be a really nice one for that. A cheap one can be had for $15. They suck, but they're better than no grinder.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 24, 2014, 04:17:13 pm
There is an old (1 month) kijiji ad with a 100 or so mm angle grinder for $50, not sure if he has it still or not.

Better be a really nice one for that. A cheap one can be had for $15. They suck, but they're better than no grinder.

Huh, didn't know they could be that cheap.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/saskatoon/mastercraft-angle-grinder-with-stand/1000342045?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true (http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/saskatoon/mastercraft-angle-grinder-with-stand/1000342045?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: Monkeh on July 24, 2014, 04:26:37 pm
There is an old (1 month) kijiji ad with a 100 or so mm angle grinder for $50, not sure if he has it still or not.

Better be a really nice one for that. A cheap one can be had for $15. They suck, but they're better than no grinder.

Huh, didn't know they could be that cheap.

Finest produce of China.

Quote
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/saskatoon/mastercraft-angle-grinder-with-stand/1000342045?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true (http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/saskatoon/mastercraft-angle-grinder-with-stand/1000342045?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)

Also a finest product of China, except with a hiked price. For that money you can buy a branded tool (Milwaukee, Makita, even Bosch or Dewalt) with some careful shopping.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: TerraHertz on July 24, 2014, 04:39:14 pm
It was $.25 a pound for that steel, it doesn't look like a whole lot but it does weight a decent bit. I did check on kijiji first but there wasn't much in the way of scrap.

Do you have a public tip nearby, and can you scrounge there? Or how about local council cleanup days? I notice you have a pickup truck.

Quote
Phoned a bunch of welding and fabrication shops and didn't really get much, a couple told me to phone the scrap yard that I went to later that day.
Places like that, it's better to drop in personally and ask.

Quote
The 5/64th welding sticks are 1.98mm or so apparently, and these are 1.76 so I think that will help a bit, but that's pretty much as thick as I can go with this one.
Yes I got that. It's why I suggested using thinner metal to practice on.


Quote
There is an old (1 month) kijiji ad with a 100 or so mm angle grinder for $50, not sure if he has it still or not.
Probably, since that sounds too much for a 2nd hand grinder. These are Australian prices for new ones:
http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=angle%20grinder&facets=CategoryIdPath%3D2a021706-07d5-4648-bf26-2ea8fea049df%20%3E%2090380562-a3ff-40f3-80a4-be8f7bc99b02 (http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=angle%20grinder&facets=CategoryIdPath%3D2a021706-07d5-4648-bf26-2ea8fea049df%20%3E%2090380562-a3ff-40f3-80a4-be8f7bc99b02)

I think I see my most recently bought one there, but they don't show model numbers. $75.

Quote
No welding gloves or anything, there is an add with some jackets for $50 or so and some sleeves for $25. I am just welding in a tshirt, cotton shirt and jeans for now. (did not think about the weld burn, but right now I just go out for a couple minutes to give it a try then take a break)

Well, leather gloves can be cheap. Nothing special required, just flexible enough, and going about half way up the forearm.
UV burns are cumulative, jut like sunburn. Taking breaks won't achieve anything. (Except letting the welder cool down.)
Incidentally the UV also wrecks cloth. Wear one set of old clothes for welding, if you don't wear leathers.
It's amazing what happens to cotton cloth if you weld a lot.

Quote
I am using partially synthetic sneakers that are steel toes but I do have some leather steel toe boots somewhere that I plan on using, but right now the sign sticks out enough from the table to keep sparks from dropping down.
You may not notice while wearing the mask, but drops of molten steel can bounce around a lot. Anyway, eventually you're sure to find out.

Quote
Also, cat worming paste? Don't have any of that.
See pic. You sure? That looks so like cat wormer! Right color, same end cap...
 
Quote
No chipping hammer, just a brush with a metal bit, but I do have a couple old hammers around that I could sue the nail puller on if I need to.

Even just an old cold chisel, used like a striking scraper, works. When you get better beads, then you'll notice the stuck spatters nearby. Also most stick welds have (deliberately) a protective slag coating, that needs to be struck off after cooling.


Quote
All in all it comes down to still needing money for this stuff, as it is the next $100 I make or so will have to go to a family member since the helped me foot the bills this month. Sigh.
Tell me about it. I'm in a similar position atm.

Quote
So tired of getting interviews then not hearing back. Went for an interview at future shop to install car audio, and sure I don't know much about that specifically but I do know about electronics. They said that my computer repair "business" on kijiji could be a problem though since they do stuff like that at the store, I said I know, and I would stop if I got the job, it's just to pay bills on the months where I make enough but they didn't seem to get it.

Why did you tell them? None of their business, is it?
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: Monkeh on July 24, 2014, 04:50:37 pm
Quote
Also, cat worming paste? Don't have any of that.
See pic. You sure? That looks so like cat wormer! Right color, same end cap...

(https://maduzmarksman.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/289192_2274350903932_1403482383_32587467_1133637_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: XOIIO on July 24, 2014, 04:54:40 pm
Quote
Also, cat worming paste? Don't have any of that.
See pic. You sure? That looks so like cat wormer! Right color, same end cap...


Yup, you can make out the shape of the logo. We don't even have a cat, I'm allergic lol
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: TerraHertz on July 24, 2014, 05:13:02 pm
Ah, it's the label that is yellowish. That's what tricked me. Have never seen dull yellow thermal paste. White, blue, gray...

Pity I don't have an example here atm to show.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: SeanB on July 24, 2014, 06:30:45 pm
I will second a trip to a steel merchant and ask nicely. I bought some 304 stainless rod earlier this week at $6 per kilo. Scrap value is $1 per kilo. I needed it to repair a broken shaft, and it lost 1kg in a lathe to get it to the right diameter.

The other lathe had a massive brass casting in it busy losing about half of it's mass into shavings in the lathe bed. It will eventually be a bush for a printing press, with a very convoluted oil path and an eccentric inside gear tooth set for aligning the press. It has a matching one for the other side as well. Probably will be a final bill ( and not mine) of around $2k or so for the bush.

Steel is a lot cheaper, you can probably go to any laser cutting place and ask for offcuts as well, there you will get small pieces that are the coupons they cut out, all nicely finished and only having a small initial plunge cut for the laser to start. You just have to only use mild steel initially, or only use ferrous stainless steel which will be weldable with a regular welder.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: SteigsdB on July 24, 2014, 09:01:31 pm
There's a great thread about welding that's been going on at ADVrider if you're looking for even more info.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210053 (http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210053)
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: G7PSK on July 25, 2014, 07:10:25 am
Those little air cooled welders are only any good up to 5mm thick steel in one pass, you need to vee the joints out open up a gap between the parts to about 1.5 - 2mm and use a 2.5mm dia rod mahe a few tack's then one pass down the middle and then several passes each side and when you get good a capping pass over the whole lot using a triangular weave. One thing you could do to improve the ease of start is put a big capacitor on the mains side of the transformer, the PF is so bad that 50 or so mf will lift the open circuit voltage from 24 volts or less, I used to fit them to welders for the local farmers, had a whole bunch of capacitors made specially by Phillips at their Kings Lynn factory back in the early 80's still have a few left, not much need for them these days as they either get small mig sets or inverter units which are very good, I use one myself it only weighs 2.7 KG and will run at 90 A all day.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: kamaangir on July 26, 2014, 08:22:37 pm
I have just got into welding myself, done an epic arc session a few weekends ago, loads of rusty metal that got transformed into a turbo jet engine in an afternoon!

I have just bought an old mig welder from a friend and plan on doing some mig welding.

Go to utoob and check out a chennel called weldingtipsandtricks, the guy is a very experienced welder and he puts in a lot of resources in making his videos (he gets some really nice arc footage), its mostly tig and mig but the underlying principal is the same.

I am hoping to get an inverter tig/stick welder soon.... Its very addictive!
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2014, 09:35:05 pm
Quote
its mostly tig and mig but the underlying principal is the same.
Stick welding travel is downhand in most cases whereas mig welding is uphand in most cases.

This fundamental difference between stick and mig makes a massive difference in weld strength and neatness.

The most common exception is vertical welding, when travel direction is commonly reversed for mig and stick.
Mig, downhand and downward, Stick, uphand and upward.

**** hand is how the electrode/torch is positioned and travels in relation to the weld bead.

Downhand the electrode is leaning away and travelling away from the bead.
Uphand the torch is leaning toward the bead and travelling way from the bead.
Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: kamaangir on July 26, 2014, 10:25:57 pm
I meant the bit about, prepping, distortion, selecting the right electrode/filler rod/mig wire for the job. What a nice bead looks like. Penetration, the importance of correct amperage, safety, importance of a good ground........

When you first start learning (like me) its all fine and well trying to do it with the correct technique and hand movement, but when you fail to strike an arc and keep banging the electrode on the workbench and can't figure out what's going on, only to fall at the 1st hurdle and not have the ground clamp on!

Title: Re: Yesss! Arc welder!
Post by: johansen on July 26, 2014, 10:54:42 pm
i would take that welder apart and run heavier leads.
if those are nice flexable leads you might double them both up to get power to the stick, while using some other cables to get to the clamp.

you also might want to replace the cord with a larger gauge wire if it gets warm.


given that you are welding on thick steel with a lightweight welder you might try and preheat the steel as hot as is practical.
Also try 1/8th 6011 rod on the highest amp setting you have. yeah, i know the box says 80-120 amps but that doesn't matter. you can get good welds with lower currents the difference is technique.  i can run 1/8th 6011 rod on 40 amps from my Lincoln 225 if the steel is clean and thin. (but the Lincoln 225 has 80 volts open circuit so its going to be a totally different machine.