Author Topic: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back  (Read 30716 times)

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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #175 on: May 03, 2022, 07:55:43 am »
No, the true problem is that we are assigning huge importance in the perceived emotive content of words, and as a result, require global control of such "bad words", making free speech impossible and unattainable.

If we allow individual words to become weapons, we force ourselves to live in a warzone, a minefield.  Language is the best tool we have to interact with each other, and it is frail and error-prone enough already; any attempt to weaponize it further horrifies me.

I so wish Fran had taken a different approach in her video.  Instead of pointing out "transvestite" is a slur, I wish she had pointed out that "transvestite" and "transgender" are completely different things, and that people confusing the two shows how people really do not understand the underlying things at all; things that are very close to the core of many people, and thus rather important.  And, then, that many consider "transvestite" a slur –– could be because so many people misuse the terms –– and prefer the term "cross-dresser" instead.  (Perhaps point out that cross-dressing has a rather long history, and isn't necessarily coupled with sexuality at all.)  And then described her own experience to whatever degree she finds necessary; but most importantly, showing that it is a natural part of her and her history, not something to be ashamed about or scared of having others know.

Why do I wish that?  Because you cannot achieve lasting change by telling people they are evil if they use 'slurs'.  You need to first show there is nothing dark or wrong in the terms themselves, and then explain what they actually mean.  Instead of priming them as mines, you need to defuse them.

As an example, consider the following.  Many human societies have tales of evil beings living in water, and dragging unwary children to their death.  These are often used by parents as an easy way to keep their children from going into the water without adult supervision.  However, such tales also mean a lot of children don't want to learn to swim, because of the fear.  The end result is that using such tales with the intent of protecting children, can actually result in more child deaths due drowning.  Using such tales –– or saying that a specific word is a slur and anyone using it should be excluded from polite society –– causes more harm than good.
It is easy, and therefore very enticing as a tool to make one feel safer, but in the end, it does more harm than good, overall.

If human languages are forced to become a primed minefield, then I do sincirely believe that letting those minefields blow up on their primers' faces as early as possible is the least harmful outcome of the entire mess.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 07:59:49 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #176 on: May 03, 2022, 08:26:20 am »
No, the true problem is that we are assigning huge importance in the perceived emotive content of words, and as a result, require global control of such "bad words", making free speech impossible and unattainable.

If we allow individual words to become weapons, we force ourselves to live in a warzone, a minefield.  Language is the best tool we have to interact with each other, and it is frail and error-prone enough already; any attempt to weaponize it further horrifies me.

I so wish Fran had taken a different approach in her video.  Instead of pointing out "transvestite" is a slur, I wish she had pointed out that "transvestite" and "transgender" are completely different things, and that people confusing the two shows how people really do not understand the underlying things at all; things that are very close to the core of many people, and thus rather important.  And, then, that many consider "transvestite" a slur –– could be because so many people misuse the terms –– and prefer the term "cross-dresser" instead.  (Perhaps point out that cross-dressing has a rather long history, and isn't necessarily coupled with sexuality at all.)  And then described her own experience to whatever degree she finds necessary; but most importantly, showing that it is a natural part of her and her history, not something to be ashamed about or scared of having others know.

Why do I wish that?  Because you cannot achieve lasting change by telling people they are evil if they use 'slurs'.  You need to first show there is nothing dark or wrong in the terms themselves, and then explain what they actually mean.  Instead of priming them as mines, you need to defuse them.

As an example, consider the following.  Many human societies have tales of evil beings living in water, and dragging unwary children to their death.  These are often used by parents as an easy way to keep their children from going into the water without adult supervision.  However, such tales also mean a lot of children don't want to learn to swim, because of the fear.  The end result is that using such tales with the intent of protecting children, can actually result in more child deaths due drowning.  Using such tales –– or saying that a specific word is a slur and anyone using it should be excluded from polite society –– causes more harm than good.
It is easy, and therefore very enticing as a tool to make one feel safer, but in the end, it does more harm than good, overall.

If human languages are forced to become a primed minefield, then I do sincirely believe that letting those minefields blow up on their primers' faces as early as possible is the least harmful outcome of the entire mess.
What I was alluding to was that the confusion between transgender and cross-dressing is an important one, with real world implications.

What happens if Fran does something illegal, as a result of money troubles? Which prison does she go do? She's biologically male, so perhaps a male prison? The problem is she would be more vulnerable to being bullied and sexually assaulted, so perhaps a female prison is more appropriate. That's fine, but then what about male sex offender who claims he's trans, dresses as a women and sexually assaults women in female toilets? If the law is applied equally, then he would be sent to a female prison, where he can have a rape fest.

The obvious solution to the above is to individually assess prisoners, taking into account psychological reports and what treatment/surgery he or she has had. The problem is this doesn't happen. There have been instances of men who claim to be women, in female prisons assaulting female prisoners.

The points you raise above, are part of the problem. If certain words are too offensive, then it's not possible to debate the matter rationally.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #177 on: May 03, 2022, 08:46:07 am »
That's fine, but then what about male sex offender who claims he's trans, dresses as a women and sexually assaults women in female toilets? If the law is applied equally, then he would be sent to a female prison, where he can have a rape fest.
Already happened in UK. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2022, 08:52:00 am »
What I was alluding to was that the confusion between transgender and cross-dressing is an important one, with real world implications.
True, and I do agree.  I just think that defusing that via a positive explanation would have been a much better approach.  As it is, primarily pointing out "transvestite" is considered a slur, and secondarily pointing out the two are completely different things, might help Fran herself, but overall, it is pushing the way us humans communicate with each other in a harmful direction.

The obvious solution to the above is to individually assess prisoners
Yes!

I've mentioned before, that some of my own faults are such that I just do not perceive the kind of things that others do.  For example, I have absolutely no "gaydar".  Several times, I've been asked whether someone I interacted with was male or female, and I realized I didn't notice.  Yes, it does mean I do some real silly goofs every now and then, but in face-to-face discussion it hasn't been a problem: I am easy to read, and try hard to honestly admit my errors; me stammering an apology with my face firetruck red when my gaffes are pointed out to me, seems to almost always defuse the situation through friendly laughter.  Online, it is a problem.

To me, everyone I meet and interact is an individual first.  Their gender and opinions are just attributes that matter much less to me than their interaction with me and others.  By requiring more complex patterns of social interaction – like remembering what words to use with which individual, without any internally consistent logic – I will be excluded from interactions.  I already see online how groups are becoming more insular, deliberately avoiding communicating with outside the group to keep themselves safe and reduce the cognitive load of social interactions.  This reduces interactions, and is definitely not good.

The next time you try to report a bug or suggest a patch to some software project, note who and how you are responded to.  It is no longer like to a peer (like it used to be when the web was new), but more like to a possible IED.  It is safer to mark, ignore and avoid, than to interact.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #179 on: May 03, 2022, 09:57:24 am »
I didn't know Big Clive is gay and I don't care. I watch Fran's videos and couldn't give a toss about he being trans.

The problem is there is extremist LGBT content is allowed, if not even encouraged by social media.
I feel the need to point out that this is absolutely untrue.

Age inappropriate content is being pushed onto children.
If by that you mean “depictions of LGBT people doing the same things cis/hetero people do, like having families and buying groceries”, then yes.

I'm all for teaching children to be tolerant of minorities, but despise radical trans activists who glorify gender dysphoria.
No, what they’re saying is to be accepting of those who suspect they may have gender dysphoria.

There have been too many cases of vulnerable children and adolescents who have been convinced they're trans by manipulative people and undergone life changing medical treatments as a result.
I’ve never heard of even one such case. What there have been is cases where children who were either intersex or whose privates had been damaged were then, upon doctor’s advice, raised as the opposite sex, with disastrous results.

But nobody is pushing gender reassignment on people who didn’t want it. This is precisely why gender reassignment requires extensive, long-term psychological evaluation first. It’s also why using hormone blockers to delay puberty is incredibly smart: you can delay the development of gender-specific physiology until the individual is absolutely certain of what they are.

Many trans activists aren't really transgender, but male transvestites, who want to use women's spaces.
Complete nonsense.

A women was raped in hospital recently, because a man who identified as female was allowed on a women's ward.

There’s a better word for that man: sexual predator. But being a predator has little to do with trans issues, and a whole lot to do with predation issues.

It’s also entirely possible, if rare, for both to be the true simultaneously — a pre-op trans woman can still be a sexual predator.

But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the number of cases of predatory men pretending to be trans women in order to gain access to victims is vanishingly small. In contrast, the number of trans women murdered every single year is shocking. And that’s in addition to all the other abuses and indignities they have to endure on a daily basis.

It’s absolutely abhorrent to throw all trans women under the bus to prevent a nearly nonexistent threat. Not to mention that it’s categorically impossible to protect women from predators at all times. If the predators can’t gain access one way, they’ll just find some other way to find victims, unfortunately.

What's worse is the police didn't believe her, because the hospital staff have been told to deny there was a man on the ward. I hope the policy is changed and the staff are prosecuted for wasting police time and perverting the course of justice: following orders is no defense!
How would you propose to even do this? It’s the same problem as the anti-trans bathroom bills in some US states: how do you enforce it? Genitalia inspections for everyone? Or just the ones who don’t look feminine enough? (We already have had cases of tomboyish cisgender women having the cops called on them for trying to use the ladies’ room.)

The correct thing to do is to act on predatory behavior, rather than impose draconian rules that single-out an already vulnerable population, all to protect against a threat that is 99.999% imaginary.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #180 on: May 03, 2022, 10:35:37 am »
The correct thing to do is to act on predatory behavior, rather than impose draconian rules
I fully agree.  And to do that, we need to examine humans as individuals, not as representatives of any groups; and instead of setting arbitrary rules about specific words getting people in trouble, we need to look at what they are saying.

I believe Fran's intentions were and are positive.  It's just that like with the stories scaring kids away from water, the easy and immediately effective way (pointing out "bad word" as the actionable thing) can in the long term cause more harm than good.

The fact that that kind of details pop up on Google shows that that kind of misunderstanding is common.  I claim we cannot fix those misunderstandings by forcing any kind of language; I claim only truly free and honest speech can do that.  Humans are just drawn to the easy short-term solutions, because the long term ones require more effort from themselves; it is so much easier to just demand that everyone else do the work instead.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #181 on: May 03, 2022, 10:45:19 am »
I'm triggered.
You seem to have forgotten the reason why women are given separate spaces from men: to make them feel more comfortable and protect them against predators. Yes it's true, it doesn't stop predators, but it helps. The hospital simply noting the person's genitalia and putting him on a male ward, irrespective of how he identifies, would have solved the problem. If he'd had gender reassignment surgery, then no problem, put him on a female ward.

The problem is throwing women under the bus, in order to protect the tiny proportion of transwomen. Men simply declaring they're women, in order to gain access to women's spaces is increasingly becoming a problem. What's to stop any pervert wearing a dress and going into a women's changing room? When I used to go to nightclubs, the security would eject anyone who did such a thing. Nowadays it they'd sue for discrimination.

There are numerous videos of misogynistic "transwomen" on Tiktok calling women all sorts of nasty words, because they've been called out for going into women's spaces.  I don't mind men dressing as women, wanting to be referred to as she and her. If they want to have surgery, to remove they're genitalia, that's fine too, but if a chick with a dick, were to go into a changing room when my mum, a girlfriend, or sister, were in there, whilst I was waiting outside. I'd go in there, drag him out by the balls. Fuck the consequences. Women should be protected from that, fuck the rights of men who act like that!

I used to think puberty blockers were a good idea, but have completely reversed my view. There isn't sufficient medical evidence to support them and their long term effects are unknown. There's an increasing number of detransitioners who have been sold into the transitioning by bad actors on social media. There isn't enough protection against this. A women is currently suing the National Health Service, for wrongly giving her surgery and medication, when counseling would have probably convinced her she's a women and no trans. A big problem is they're accused of transphobia for telling their stories.

I'm fine with children being made aware of gender dysphoria, in an age appropriate manner, but there are too many cases of teachers indoctrinating young children in radical gender theory. A big problem is children are encouraged to question their sex, because they don't fit stereotypical male or female traits. My sister was a tomboy, when she was younger and now many girls who are like that are led to believe they're nonbinary, or worse trans. I was never into football and developed a love for flowers, at one point, which some might no see as an indication of being trans, yet no, I'm a straight man.

Many of your views mirror mine, a couple of years ago. I suggest you do some real research and get back to me.

That's fine, but then what about male sex offender who claims he's trans, dresses as a women and sexually assaults women in female toilets? If the law is applied equally, then he would be sent to a female prison, where he can have a rape fest.
Already happened in UK. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html
That doesn't surprise me. A similar incident occurred in hospital, which I referred to in another post. It's easy to find the article, so I won't post a link.
The correct thing to do is to act on predatory behavior, rather than impose draconian rules
I fully agree.  And to do that, we need to examine humans as individuals, not as representatives of any groups; and instead of setting arbitrary rules about specific words getting people in trouble, we need to look at what they are saying.

I believe Fran's intentions were and are positive.  It's just that like with the stories scaring kids away from water, the easy and immediately effective way (pointing out "bad word" as the actionable thing) can in the long term cause more harm than good.

The fact that that kind of details pop up on Google shows that that kind of misunderstanding is common.  I claim we cannot fix those misunderstandings by forcing any kind of language; I claim only truly free and honest speech can do that.  Humans are just drawn to the easy short-term solutions, because the long term ones require more effort from themselves; it is so much easier to just demand that everyone else do the work instead.
That is the only way to deal with this. It would also help to deal with the problem I mentioned above, of predatory men in womenface.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:59:22 am by Zero999 »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #182 on: May 03, 2022, 10:57:20 am »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
The small fringe minority was able to grow in numbers to a significant point through the megaphone of the internet - it really snowballed.

IIRC, this cultural change started to take shape publicly through gamergate, where the tactics of shaming others based on the use of their words was tested in a broader arena and, since it was present in a large community (gamers) and with a young generation (more open to new ideas), it was able to grow roots in this part of the society. Companies catering to the younger generation started to pay attention and started to self-censor themselves, while this was mostly ignored by the rest of the industry and media (despite still being active in Twitter). However, once the scholars with the proper background in Critical Theory were able to connect the shaming tactics with their "proper" theoretical foundation, the media companies started to pay attention (by inviting them to speak at their bobblehead segments) and, being in an audience crisis themselves, did not want to lose the chance to cater to the young audiences. Once it hits *that* powerful megaphone, no containment is possible.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

(I might have forgotten a detail or two, but all this happened in the past eight or nine years only).
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Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #183 on: May 03, 2022, 04:27:28 pm »
The small fringe minority was able to grow in numbers to a significant point through the megaphone of the internet - it really snowballed.
Loud people don't get gather support. They cower the meek into submission. We seem to live in times where things have been so easy for so many that most people are meek enough to submit.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #184 on: May 03, 2022, 04:55:57 pm »
See "The Problem of Social Cost" by Coase,
https://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/file/coase-problem.pdf

Thats the underlying explanation for a great many things..Its a very big and important change in things . Profit is much more important now. It was always important but now everything reevolves around it, legally.

There used to be moral scruples that sometimes contradicted the corporate logic. Many people dont know there has been this sea change.. and a lot of effort seems to go into hiding this change. Why? A few people have said words to me about this change and the hiding of the Trilemma as some call it.

Dani Rodrik (Articulate Harvard economist) is credited for it but it was around, as it was well known to economists and others in the 1990s long before his paper..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 05:08:44 pm by cdev »
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Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #185 on: May 03, 2022, 05:09:23 pm »
A women was raped in hospital recently, because a man who identified as female was allowed on a women's ward.

There’s a better word for that man: sexual predator. But being a predator has little to do with trans issues, and a whole lot to do with predation issues.
You said a lot of nonsense, without supporting any of it, but let's take this as an example. Most people have great sympathy with the plight of anyone who doesn't fit in, whatever the reason might be. This shouldn't be suprising. None of us fit in 100%. I've spent my life like a fish out of water. Even most of those who make snide remarks about outsiders will support their right to be themselves. I've met few people who are genuinely hostile to the issues of someone who doesn't fit in sexually, unless the reason they don't fit in is predatory. 40 years ago I knew several trans-sexuals, when society was much less accommodating of anyone out of the ordinary. Their dearest wish was to just fit in and be accepted living the way they felt comfortable. They didn't stand up and scream that everyone else had to adapt to them, because they were trying to hard to keep a low profile and fit in. If their physique made it easy fort them to pass themselves off as the opposite gender they had a reasonably smooth path. If they were, say, a huge burly male trying to pass as a women life could be hard. That's true for anyone who stands out. Life for anyone who is exceptionally something - tall, short, fat, thin, etc - has issues. One trans-sexual was hired where I worked in the 1970s. Both the women and men there had issues with this person using their toilets, and the individual sympathised with their views. The company built a separate toilet for them, so nobody had a reason to feel uncomfortable about the issue. Later, that toilet was replaced with an oversized one that could accommodate disabled people as well, and became an anyone's toilet. I suspect they only expanded that toilet for the disabled under external pressure, but they accommodated the trans-sexual themselves. Businesses and communities generally seemed ready to spend significant resources to help.

Now we have a situation where people are claiming that anyone who says they are something needs to be fully accepted as that something. Their honesty is accepted without question, which is weird, since we know humans lie a lot. Not just to others, but to themselves too. They don't need to make any real commitment to their new role. They don't need to do anything more than dress up. They can even be a man wearing a beard dressed as a woman, and we are expected to take them seriously as someone who was born a woman. Activists try to push the jaggedly shaped peg of a complex person into a round hole, because their view of humans is quite shallow, and any dishonest actor has a field day in a situation like that. So, we see an increasing number of cases of girls and women abused and raped in women's spaces  by dishonest actors, and by people who are probably just too complex to fit into a pure male or female mould.

So, you are right. Predation is the problem. Why do you support an environment where predators can have a great time? Why is letting people dressing as women, but acting male, into women's spaces in hospitals, prisons, and schools a good idea?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #186 on: May 03, 2022, 05:15:53 pm »
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.

Social media greatly amplifies this effect I think. It allows people to exist almost entirely within curated echo chambers of like minded people. That becomes their whole world as any dissenting views are expelled and soon they perceive that as the views of the population as a whole.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #187 on: May 03, 2022, 05:41:01 pm »
Duck Duck Go is actually using Google for its searches.

I think a lot has to do with keeping Google profitable. They have to be kept profitable. Just like health insurance companies have to be kept profitable or politicians might find themselves responsible for a disfunctional healthcare system.
The problem is that the entire concept of the web is broken.

Back before the the current web (HTTP, HTML) there was SGML which was a concept that was intended to semantically mark up content according not to the way it should be DISPLAYED but also and instead according to the USE and MEANING of the content.
Right now the entire core of HTML is based around the mostly useless ways of defining that this bit is BOLD and this bit is UNDERLINED and this bit BLINKs and this bit is in this font size etc.    HTML is not logical its basically just a hack thats used for formatting when it shouldnt be. Markup could and sometimes is used as logical markup but it rarely is.

But thats not the main issue.. If search engines returned results to queries in some logical markup it would be much easier to screen scrape  the web.  But they dont, because they are all competing with one another, perhaps.
-----------------
Its been this way for decades..

HTML is actually a variant of SGML which I think was originally used in Linotype machines, which I first saw in the 1970s.. (but without inks) They worked.. They were used for laying out pages in newspapers.. similarly to how web browsers work today..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Semantically in the current web there is basically zero "structure" and "meaning" to the content other than there's text and there's fonts and there's text formatting and there are display styles.

Theres even a BLINK tag..  hehehe..  remember the blink squirrels?




So if I create a web page with say the following content (as a trivial example), there's nothing indicating to a reader or a "search engine" what the actual semantic meaning and relevance of my page is.  Is it fiction?  Is it biography?  Is it history?  Is it about Maxewell or is it about Newton (both of whom are mentioned an equal number of times)?  Is it about physics?  Is it about electronics?  Is it opinion?  Is it fact?  When was it written?  What is the temporal relevance of it?  What relationship does it have to other publications / references / people?

----


There are "standardsds for fact verifications, which is one pressing need, but thgey would rather there was no solution, even though it would be a straightforward solution.. but they arent used.. by Google at least. There is Dublin Core..which is as good as it gets.. which can be used to label the most common needed additional attributes.. a name-value datastore..

There are multiple bibliographic database formats.. Something else - having to do with a global shift to corporations is going on. 100% corporate owned, so there isnt any democratic accountability. So it is controllable by the wealthy is a primary concern for example, look at the goals of the WEF.. very undemocratic..and out of the public domain.. They really wish that there was no "public domain" Who owns it? Not them? Who owns information like the facts..
?

Like laws?

Quote
James Clerk Maxwell FRSE FRS (13 June 1831 – 5 November 1879) was a Scottish mathematician[1][2] and scientist responsible for the classical theory of electromagnetic radiation, which was the first theory to describe electricity, magnetism and light as different manifestations of the same phenomenon. Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism have been called the "second great unification in physics"[3] where the first one had been realised by Isaac Newton.


Even in elementary school they teach everyone to use citations to references, include bibliographic information, etc. but even the most basic semantic relationships aren't "on the web".

What we need in the future isn't some tech-giant "search engine" that censors and filters and monetizes and spies on people's requests for information and which tries to handle the unscalable and insurmountable task of spidering and reverse engineering the "meaning" and "content" of the whole internet.

What we need is what has existed for LONG before the internet -- LIBRARY SCIENCE.

Agreed but they want that to be controllable, which means it cant be public? Everything has to be tiered, students must be in private schools., databases must be tiered.. Buy or die.. Information. Rich kids pouring the Kool Aid.. or losing out.. Because they didnt pay for everything.

Whose library. Since there are commercial libraries, we cant have them be public.. Like I grew up going to a free public library...

That may no longer be legal for WTO members.. Because it violates Article 1:3 of the GATS for them to give anything away.
In 1950 I could walk into any library, zero computers involved, use their "search tool" (card catalog, indices, bibliographies, encyclopedias, et. al.) and within minutes find content possibly including a search domain of a lot of the sum of human knowledge in published form.   I wouldn't get waylaid in my search by advertisements for pizza and soda.  I wouldn't search for one thing and get something totally different as a result.  I got what I was looking for, and 64 layers of governments, ad networks, tech giants, etc. didn't get to intercept / censor my search, either.

So in a meaningful way "search" in 1960 was better than search today because the web is a steaming pile of unorganized spaghetti filled with blinking ads and animations and dancing monkeys and cat gifs and ads for impotence pills instead of what most of us actually wanted -- THE INFORMATION WE'RE LOOKING FOR. 

Which is by way of example why all the "search engines" should vanish, and the "browser makers", too, and even the way the content creation tools work, and the formats information is stored in.

Librarians know this.  Web developers and "internet platforms" don't know or worse don't care.

Why have this great trove of the sum of human publication online if one can't find anything in it?  Why waste millions of man-years every single year with "click here for the next 10 results" and captchas and banner ads etc. etc. instead of a meaningful way to more automatically, richly, and sustainably find and utilize content.

Right now there's probably some bit of knowledge that would actually save your life or at least massively improve it. 


Then they insist that it be very very expensive.. like a drug that might be as simple as salt but might save your life.. They want to turn it into your next commercial product, if you have the money, you can live longer.

Everything has to be or become a commercial product...You cant have unlicensed information saving lives without money... People learne all these things for free.. They want to stamp out free science..

But you probably don't even know it exists, or if you do, maybe you'll never even find it because of the disorganized mess the internet is.  Searching through exabytes of information is a great commercial product. Actually some people hate the way it is today.. They are doing all this stuff to lock it up.

A job for a librarian to find what you want.  But therey have to be young and stupid.
It is not a great job for our slow wet little brains that can only look at one thing per second or so or whom remember how to think logically.. 

But to make the necessary AI automation work people have to realize that content shouldn't be created in form encoded for free human interaction, it should all be created for machine processing and semantic analysis and semantic search.  Then the important bits can be automatically or manually interpreted and evaluated rather than the "click here for the next 10 results" nonsense.

The internet is a vast landfill with trash piled on unorganized in ever deeper layers which not even an archaeologist can sort out to find meaning or location of anything.  Whereas we invented the database and the index 50+ years ago and yet we don't even use that minimal level of technology in any sane scalable form as well as an old card catalog does on the metadata / semantic content while creating the future of human knowledge.


Whres the profit in that? Why do some people get better?

So while looking for ways to "tear down" the internet, and commercialize everything involving knowledge  think about creating what you really want / need and don't stop at youtube or google or html or ad networks, keep going until it becomes a tool FOR you instead of AGAINST you.

But Google is a lot less progressive than some people seem to be fooled into thinking.. Look at how their biggest customers are the defense industry, and other corporations.. and the government.. And the ad industry..Which has always been kind of sleazy.. I know, I used to be in it...according to them.



Quote
Sometimes they too useful but hopefully other search engines will never exist and wont catch up. Free information is already out of control.
...
No it's a pile of crap that does not return the same quality of results, theres another one that claims to plant trees with the proceeds and uses bing, that can't find what is in front of it.



These big companies are trying to commercialize (by stealing) other peoples work and sell advrtising to see it. People naturally behave in certain ways because we are social beings, big corporations are tring to steal the value from normal peoples efforts to participate in online communities and prevent poor people from somehow becoming rich. Without formal credentials.. The jopbs are supposed to go to the rich people, all around the world.. not the poor people.  This is one of the worst things some companies do. They are consciously trying to lower he value of labor.. Of course they do it because they want to pay lesss, and all big companies do.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:42:40 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #188 on: May 03, 2022, 05:43:08 pm »
I thought DuckDuckGo uses Bing? Or did they switch?
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #189 on: May 03, 2022, 05:53:45 pm »
[...] we see an increasing number of cases of girls and women abused and raped in women's spaces  by dishonest actors, and by people who are probably just too complex to fit into a pure male or female mould.

You might be right, but I'd need evidence before I repeat the claim, and I doubt that evidence exists. True or not, I strongly doubt that anyone has kept accurate records allowing a before and after comparison.

Bottom line: just don't make the claim unless you can back it up.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #190 on: May 03, 2022, 05:58:56 pm »
Duck Duck Go is actually using Google for its searches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuckDuckGo#Search_results:
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DuckDuckGo's results are a compilation of "over 400" sources, including Yahoo! Search BOSS, Wolfram Alpha, Bing, Yandex, its own web crawler (the DuckDuckBot) and others.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #191 on: May 03, 2022, 06:03:14 pm »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.

Yeah. Well, all those sociology studies are a gold mine... ahem. But I doubt there's even 3% of those people in the population anyway.
No, those people are not "loud" (but, certainly not "powerful") enough by themselves to have their way without external help. That's just bullshit IMHO.
Their activism is getting artifically amplified by policies of social networks and media, and that's what makes the whole thing look more and more "normal" to the whole population. But I'm sorry, I do not think in the least that those networks and media do it BECAUSE that's what the population wants to hear. They do it because they have their own agenda, and THEN it progressively gets inside people's minds.

 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #192 on: May 03, 2022, 06:28:27 pm »
Quote
Otherwise, people could just vote whatever they wanted to happen.

Very unlikely, unfortunately. Or perhaps luckily, given what some people want!

The problem is you can't vote for a single thing. Well, you can, but doing so drags along several pages full of other manifesto commitments, many of which you might prefer to vote against in preference to the thing you want to vote for.

There is also the small problem of not being able to vote for something that isn't on offer. If, for instance, neither of the main parties in the UK say they will ban excessive profits from motorway service stations then no-one will be able to vote for that regardless of who they align behind.

As long as you are a stakeholder. Lobbying is out of control, at least I think so.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 06:30:06 pm by cdev »
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Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #193 on: May 03, 2022, 07:06:48 pm »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.

Yeah. Well, all those sociology studies are a gold mine... ahem. But I doubt there's even 3% of those people in the population anyway.
No, those people are not "loud" (but, certainly not "powerful") enough by themselves to have their way without external help. That's just bullshit IMHO.
Their activism is getting artifically amplified by policies of social networks and media, and that's what makes the whole thing look more and more "normal" to the whole population. But I'm sorry, I do not think in the least that those networks and media do it BECAUSE that's what the population wants to hear. They do it because they have their own agenda, and THEN it progressively gets inside people's minds.
While activists corrupt research, things like that 3% figure cut both ways for them. If its as low as 3% it encourages the flock to push hard. If its as low as 3% is badly hurts their credibility with everyone else. So, which way are you going to corrupt the outcome of your research?

 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #194 on: May 03, 2022, 09:52:00 pm »
Corporations dont make good overseeers of many things, because they invariably prioritize money above all else. Not always, but fairly often sometimes this results in real disasters.. Like in the 90s with AIDS drugs which ended up in the deaths of 30 million african children from HIV, after a cure had been found..  They should have just given those drugs to doctors to distribute to sick people.. Eventually they did but only after years of bad decisions.. and greed.

And they still havent forgiven anybody for what was done, and now they are determined to not let the "historic opportunity be "wasted".. They want to make a killing off of COVID.. Some really do, they still do and its horrible.. How could anybody be so ignorant of common sense?

During epidemics of that kind its really a crime to profiteer of of sick people in he way the drug companies do. If you want to know the story see the award winning 2013 film Fire in the Blood by Dylan Mohan Grey..Or read the book Genocide By Denial, which is a very well written truly gripping book by an African doctor who was really on the front lines of the HIV epidemic.. Is pretty interesting.. and the book is free, although its hard to find..

In the case of several tech companies they really owe their success to the high quality free software which underlies their product.. more than anythingt else.. They should nbe more open about that..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:04:13 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #195 on: May 03, 2022, 10:20:10 pm »

These companies are trying to influence the world to fit their desires. Its not a good situation because its very coercive. Things could be a great deal better if people joined together to actually promote optimal outcomes. Which right now its not, in fact its the opposite, IMHO its in many ways the worst possible outcomes. Ive lost track of how many folks I grew up who have died of what should be cure-able cancers.. People here often don't go to the doctor when they should because of fear of the cost...Here they are spending $10,000 or more per year on health insurance and they don't even use it..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:28:19 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #196 on: May 03, 2022, 10:24:10 pm »
I'm triggered.
You seem to have forgotten the reason why women are given separate spaces from men: to make them feel more comfortable and protect them against predators. Yes it's true, it doesn't stop predators, but it helps. The hospital simply noting the person's genitalia and putting him on a male ward, irrespective of how he identifies, would have solved the problem. If he'd had gender reassignment surgery, then no problem, put him on a female ward.
I don't see how the latter would make anything different. In the end gender and sexual orientation are just superficial. There will always be people that harrass other people and gender has nothing to do with that. IOW: you are seeing a cause and effect relation that doesn't exist / are jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Let me tell you that women have said things to me that would earn me a slap in the face if I'd said those things to a woman. I felt flattered though (I do look good  8) ).

Their activism is getting artifically amplified by policies of social networks and media, and that's what makes the whole thing look more and more "normal" to the whole population. But I'm sorry, I do not think in the least that those networks and media do it BECAUSE that's what the population wants to hear. They do it because they have their own agenda, and THEN it progressively gets inside people's minds.
That is what I call a 'Trumpism'. Usefull information gets lost in the noise and reliable sources are being discredited. It seems to work well on you.

Fortunately social media and regular media start to see that they have a responsibility for removing false information or at least tagging information as not being verified / necessarily true.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:34:32 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #197 on: May 03, 2022, 10:52:51 pm »
The government has its own private in house Google.. (network search boxen) As do many other entities.

They also have their own malls, and other stores. etc. This is a well known fact. Its used by government employees..

This should not be the case.. Its out of control..wrong.. filled with fake news? I dont think we know..

but this kind of creation of an unaccountable parallel Internet is scary..; and wrong, IMHO.

Nomenklatura was the word in Russia for it.. .. or the annointed ones.. the named members of the elite.. its always creepy.. when its done..  They accused others, dissidents of insanity but it was (and remains) Russia's government that was attempting to become a law onto itself and in retrospect was going insane..

I have a healthy mistrust of and distaste for government by and of corporations..which I feel are amoral. They dont own the world. They made it up, their ownership.. we never voted for that.

Their agreements set up immopral unconscionable unaccountable government of them, of for and by them. alone.
Google doesnt care about any of us or anything besides themselves, as far as I can tell.. They dont care about the things they claim matter to them, thats just a cover up of what they are doing which has been exposed as a sham.. I'm a bit afraid, I do admit it that with certain oither shams exposed the country and the corporate gobbledegook could implode..
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 01:23:10 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #198 on: May 03, 2022, 11:21:48 pm »
CDEV, you're completely out of control. I honestly feel bad for you; living in constant fear of, well apparently everything, must be exhausting at best and probably much worse.

Seriously, you need to take care of yourself.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #199 on: May 04, 2022, 12:34:33 am »
The government
--- cut - stuff ---

Is everything alright ?

You seem to be making quite a lot of, posts. Which seem to be worried about the Government and stuff.
 


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