Author Topic: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back  (Read 30702 times)

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Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #225 on: May 04, 2022, 03:53:43 pm »
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy
Whenever you use Wikipedia as a source, I recommend also looking at the history of the page, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hunter_Biden&action=history.  It contains gems like "New York Post is unreliable" as a basis for deletion, even though Media Bias / Fact Check rates New York Post as reliable as MSNBC or CNN.
I do read Wikipedia, but it does have a strong left-wing bias. If the left-wing Guardian thinks it's slightly biased towards the Democratic Party, then it must be strongly left-wing.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/29/the-five-wikipedia-biases-pro-western-male-dominated
I think it would be more accurate to say wikipedia has a strong stupid bias. If you look at pure technical pages, without any real political angle, they are gradually edited into meaninglessness, by people who clearly have no clue about the topic.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #226 on: May 04, 2022, 04:28:35 pm »
Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
That is how science works and why I wrote 'the best possible assumption'.

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Fortunately, a study was done in Bangladesh last year. It shows surgical masks reduce the spread by 11%, yet cloth masks didn't have a statistically significant effect. Great, you'd expect the mainstream media would report this and governments would start recommending people wear proper surgical masks, but no, ineffective cloth masks prevailed.  :palm:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y
That depends per country where some countries choose not to change their position on the type of masks to avoid a new tsunami of fake news on social media that (in the big picture) has a detrimental effect on the society. IMHO the real problem is that people are insecure and want answers to their worries and many don't care that they get the wrong answer as long as they get an answer. This opens a whole can of worms; like how religions are being used as crowd control.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 04:34:08 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #227 on: May 04, 2022, 04:47:21 pm »
Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
That is how science works and why I wrote 'the best possible assumption'.
So valid and important information should be banned because somebody assumed something, be it good or ill willed?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #228 on: May 04, 2022, 04:58:57 pm »
No, you are twisting my words around. What I'm saying is that it is best to wait for the scientific community (as a whole) to take a position on a subject instead of jumping to conclusions based on messages / videos circulating on social media. Science is truth by broad concensus; not what a single person thinks is true. The problem however is reaching concensus takes time while the public doesn't want to wait that long. 'Experts' take advantage of that by showing up on TV and other media to spout their opinions but in the end it is just meaningless drivel.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:04:49 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #229 on: May 04, 2022, 05:04:44 pm »
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
One of the interesting things that changed was years of sober minded research by a number of bodies around the world concluded that large scale lockdowns would never be the right approach to take in any plausible pandemic. When a real disease popped up those with power immediately went in the opposite direction, based on nothing new being uncovered.

As for masks, there have been a number of studies about them over the years, drawing conclusions between ineffective, and mildly effective, depending on the transmission characteristics of the disease being studied. Did you hear anything nuanced like that being said by anyone with power in early 2020? It was either do not wear a mask or you an evil granny killer if you don't wear a mask, oscillating between those positions as time went by.

I was amused by a group of parents in the US being interviewed about their small children using N95 masks. They all felt they were absolutely essential. When questioned about the effect on their child's breathing, they responded that the masks fit their child's face so poorly they were breathing around the sides, and the mask didn't impede their breathing at all. Perhaps these were parents who had studied drama rather than a STEM subject.
 
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Offline ve7xen

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #230 on: May 04, 2022, 05:04:53 pm »
You conflate two completely separate things:
1) What a person in a news organization chooses to write about
2) What an organization forbids discussion about

No, you are the one conflating several concepts here. Whether you belive it is right or wrong ethically, YouTube et. al. are not obligated to publish anything, and it is absurd to suggest that they are.

Journalists are individuals, and can choose to write about whatever they went, though society should hold them to high standards of integrity that includes verifying sources and doing actual original research so that we don't have to. This used to be relatively 'easy', because widely distributing information required large networks and expensive equipment, the cost of which stood as a gatekeeper. Irresponsible 'journalists', when identified, shouldn't be published, and should be relegated to standing on their soapbox and handing out pamphlets on the street, and that is how journalism has ostensibly worked for 100s of years.

The internet has made it difficult to discern who is a journalist in the true sense and who is peddling unfounded outrage, conspiracy, and hate. YouTube et. al. are realizing they have some of the ethical responsibility of old-school news organizations to keep those crazies on the street with their pamphlets, and not give them front page headlines. This is, for whatever it's worth, still much more liberal and free than a few newspapers having a monopoly on reporting.

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Again, the Hunter Biden laptop case is a perfect example.  Hard evidence existed, it was just labeled as "Trump campaign product" and "Russian misinformation", and therefore not to be discussed in media.

Really, this is the best example you have? A random laptop of unknown origin from a random repair shop claimed to contain supposedly incriminating files about the POTUS right in the middle of an election campaign? That is suspicious as all hell and journalists and others should hesitate to trust anything it contains. Years later and only recently has any of this been verified, and it's still highly dubious. This is exactly the kind of garbage that ethical journalists would avoid publishing during an election.

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No matter of personal :wtf: changes the fact that no media organization is to be trusted to define what is true and what is not, no matter what their political leanings are.

Truth exists, it's not defined. Whether you trust media organizations and journalists to report exclusively on the truth or not is up to you, but that is their role in society, and we should hold them to it, not allow media to devolve into a political pissing match where the truth is hidden and nobody is going to help you find it.
73 de VE7XEN
He/Him
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #231 on: May 04, 2022, 05:05:20 pm »
No, you are twisting my words around. What I'm saying is that it is best to wait for the scientific community (as a whole) to take a position on a subject instead of jumping to conclusions based on messages / videos circulating on social media. Science is truth by broad concensus; not what a single person thinks is true. The problem however is that the public doesn't want to wait that long.
WTF "scientific community" actually means? Who makes an actual decision? Certainly not scientists who more often than not have different opinions about anything other than trivial topics. And how do you effing quantify the opinion of scientific community to begin with?
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #232 on: May 04, 2022, 05:13:32 pm »
Really, this is the best example you have? A random laptop of unknown origin from a random repair shop claimed to contain supposedly incriminating files about the POTUS right in the middle of an election campaign? That is suspicious as all hell and journalists and others should hesitate to trust anything it contains. Years later and only recently has any of this been verified, and it's still highly dubious. This is exactly the kind of garbage that ethical journalists would avoid publishing during an election.
Really? And what about Trump Russiagate which turned out to be a total hoax with no real evidence? None of those "ethical journalists" hesitated to publish a total trash for years, which hindered Trump presidency and reelection. Laptop on other hand turned out to be completely real. And the result of this "responsible journalism" is a corrupt to the bones president with Dementia.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:16:58 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #233 on: May 04, 2022, 05:14:41 pm »
Men are really identifying as female to be allowed into women's prisons, hospitals, changing rooms etc. This isn't the only case of a woman being raped by a man, claiming to be a women. I dare say there are a greater number of men who are prepared to lie to get access to vulnerable women, than there are genuine transgender women, especially criminals destined for prison. It is a problem.

I sincerely hope to never have the opportunity, but I think if I were headed to prison I would very seriously contemplate claiming to be transgender in order to be placed in a women's facility. Not because I want access to vulnerable women but because it seems likely to be a considerably safer environment away from the masses of violent incarcerated males.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #234 on: May 04, 2022, 05:20:03 pm »
Men are really identifying as female to be allowed into women's prisons, hospitals, changing rooms etc. This isn't the only case of a woman being raped by a man, claiming to be a women. I dare say there are a greater number of men who are prepared to lie to get access to vulnerable women, than there are genuine transgender women, especially criminals destined for prison. It is a problem.

I sincerely hope to never have the opportunity, but I think if I were headed to prison I would very seriously contemplate claiming to be transgender in order to be placed in a women's facility. Not because I want access to vulnerable women but because it seems likely to be a considerably safer environment away from the masses of violent incarcerated males.
Me too. lol

Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
That is how science works and why I wrote 'the best possible assumption'.
How do you think science works? If you don't know, it involves people discussing different possible theories and the evidence to support them.

That can't happen on social media given the current levels of censorship. As I said before, even the British Medical Journal was censored by Facebook. Freedom of speech is essential for science to evolve. Without it, we go back to the Middle Ages, when only theories accepted by the authorities prevail. You must've heard of Galileo.


Quote
Quote
Fortunately, a study was done in Bangladesh last year. It shows surgical masks reduce the spread by 11%, yet cloth masks didn't have a statistically significant effect. Great, you'd expect the mainstream media would report this and governments would start recommending people wear proper surgical masks, but no, ineffective cloth masks prevailed.  :palm:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y
That depends per country where some countries choose not to change their position on the type of masks to avoid a new tsunami of fake news on social media that (in the big picture) has a detrimental effect on the society. IMHO the real problem is that people are insecure and want answers to their worries and many don't care that they get the wrong answer as long as they get an answer. This opens a whole can of worms; like how religions are being used as crowd control.
Given that all countries I'm aware of recommend/mandate cloth, rather than surgical masks, most of the worlds' governments are equally incompetent then.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #235 on: May 04, 2022, 05:43:28 pm »
That can't happen on social media given the current levels of censorship. As I said before, even the British Medical Journal was censored by Facebook. Freedom of speech is essential for science to evolve. Without it, we go back to the Middle Ages, when only theories accepted by the authorities prevail. You must've heard of Galileo.
Any scientist expecting a meaningfull exchange on Facebook is an idiot. There are lots of much better ways like publishing papers in a scientific journal or presenting a new theory at a conference. Radical ideas require extraordinary proof and undergo a lot of scrutiny. Albert Einstein's relativity theories wheren't accepted from day one.

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Given that all countries I'm aware of recommend/mandate cloth, rather than surgical masks, most of the worlds' governments are equally incompetent then.
Then you are aware of very few countries. In Germany FFP2 was mandated and in the Netherlands surgical masks where strongly recommended while cloth masks where discouraged.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:47:36 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #236 on: May 04, 2022, 05:47:51 pm »
Then you are aware of very few countries. In Germany FFP2 was mandated and in the Netherlands surgical masks where strongly recommended while cloth masks where discouraged.
They are outliers. The UK, US and Canada still push cloth masks. Germany and I believe Denmark are exceptional in the way their governments update their policies with the latest scientific theories.  Another  good example of this is recommending aspiration, when doctors and nurses inject the vaccine, in order to reduce the risk of it entering the bloodstream, where it might increase the risks of triggering adverse events.

That can't happen on social media given the current levels of censorship. As I said before, even the British Medical Journal was censored by Facebook. Freedom of speech is essential for science to evolve. Without it, we go back to the Middle Ages, when only theories accepted by the authorities prevail. You must've heard of Galileo.
Any scientist expecting a meaningfull exchange on Facebook is an idiot. There are lots of other ways like publishing papers in a scientific journal or presenting a new theory at a conference. Radical ideas require extraordinary proof and undergo a lot of scrutiny. Albert Einstein's relativity theories wheren't accepted from day one.
Plenty of doctors and scientists use Facebook to communicate with each other and ordinary people alike. This is vitally important to keep people interested and updated with the latest scientific thinking. Unfortunately this isn't possible, as the idiots who work there think they know better than the likes of the BMJ. :palm:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:51:50 pm by Zero999 »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #237 on: May 04, 2022, 05:48:47 pm »
Only an idiot would go on Facebook for medical advice. Facebook is not your doctor! So it is good if Facebook doesn't allow to dispense medical advice. Most governments have websites for medical advice which content is supervised / written by doctors; those are the places to go looking for medical advice.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:51:31 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #238 on: May 04, 2022, 06:00:49 pm »
Only an idiot would go on Facebook for medical advice. Facebook is not your doctor!
I would say the same to anyone who gets their medical advice from TV news, or some government run website.
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So it is good if Facebook doesn't allow to dispense medical advice.
You're missing the point: Facebook only allow medical content which suits their agenda. I agree, if they want to do their bit to prevent the sharing of medical misinformation, the best thing they could do is just prohibit anyone from posting any medical content, but that's not the case.
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Most governments have websites for medical advice which content is supervised / written by doctors; those are the places to go looking for medical advice.
Unfortunately they're often full of misinformation. It took the UK's NHS website a couple of years to update their website with the latest list of COVID-19 symptoms.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #239 on: May 04, 2022, 06:16:14 pm »
Only an idiot would go on Facebook for medical advice. Facebook is not your doctor! So it is good if Facebook doesn't allow to dispense medical advice. Most governments have websites for medical advice which content is supervised / written by doctors; those are the places to go looking for medical advice.

No, the right place to go for medical advice is, guess what? A doctor. Shocking huh?
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #240 on: May 04, 2022, 06:25:28 pm »
My local grocery store is filled with posters asking for GoFund me funds for people I grew up with who put off healthcare and ended up with "incurable" cancers.. Then insurance companies get to basically do nothing because its too late. Going to the doctor may cost you $250-$500 but thats probably because you have some health issue. That needs curative care. You can get free care if its only preventative.. in the US, this was for corporations. So that patients would not talk about work related chemicals. Or they get charged for the visit. Isnt that slick?

 Better to spend the money than end up with some serious disease and have it be too late to do anything about it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 06:34:22 pm by cdev »
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #241 on: May 04, 2022, 06:27:12 pm »
If you feel you need an authority to tell you what is true and what is false, be my guest.  You will never, ever make me accept such an authority: I will make my own mind.

If you insist that only information vetted by some arbitrary censor is allowed to be disseminated, I will oppose you.  It's that simple; free speech is that important.  In my own home country, it has already been lost to an alarming degree.

Now, unlike the people who are willing to burn cities because they think a mass-produced object – a book – was mishandled or because they think a court might perhaps make a decision they dislike at some point in the future, I will oppose you with my words and concepts only.  I might apply a bit of civil disobedience, but not if it harms or risks harm to you or anyone else.

I am not an enemy, only an opponent.  There is a significant difference.  If we ever meet face to face, I'll be friendly and happy to meet you.

Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."

There is no more search for the truth via journalism, only a demand that only factually verified non-offensive things should be allowed to be communicated. 
That the population should "trust media organizations and journalists to report exclusively on the truth [as] that is their role in society, and we should hold them to it", instead of considering journalism as a tool in discovering what is true and what is not; that it is for the journalists to report, and the readers to evaluate.

Well, I've made my position clear.  It also seems clear that either I am in a tiny minority, or cannot express myself in a way that convinces anyone, so :-//.
At least Dave let me voice it out here, so that's a big plus. :-+
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #242 on: May 04, 2022, 06:32:32 pm »
An opponent?

Does that mean you have opposed everything? That cant be true, its impossible to oppose everything.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 06:35:59 pm by cdev »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #243 on: May 04, 2022, 06:57:52 pm »
Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."
That is what you are making of it. The reality is that the story is simply too thin for any paper to write it on. That should be a very clear sign! If there really was a story, the Republicans would have ran a marathon with it and go for an impeachment. And there is plenty of nuance in this thread but you are simply not seeing it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 07:26:19 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #244 on: May 04, 2022, 07:35:19 pm »
Well, what you "acknowledge to be verified/true" is up to you, not up to some "authority" or "fact checker".  It is always up to you, the individual.

Not exactly, yes and no, if you like.
On the one hand, yes, an individual is responsible, especially if they end up taking action(s) as a result.

But on the other.  A particular individual, may well want to spend most of their time doing other things.  Work, Hobbies, Entertainment, TV/Movies, Dealing with Family, meals, hygiene and many other things.
Giving themselves, little time to keep up with the current days news.  They may even want to sleep or take toilet breaks, sometimes!

A particular individual, may well be highly intelligent, and extremely skilled/knowledgeable in some areas.  Perhaps they are a top Doctor.  But that wouldn't make them an expert on many other subject areas. For example, could the top Doctor, take 100% control of a troubled airline flight, with one engine burnt out, the other engine, over-heated, smoldering and showing various alert alarms. 45 injured passengers, of 419 (including crew), because of the on-board fire, smoke and other reasons.
Could the top Doctor, drive a formula 1 racing car, to win against several former world champion drivers ?

Maybe the top Doctor could write the firmware, design the PCB, for a complicated electronics project ?

If not, it would be tricky for them to analyse some news items, themselves.  Which is why, quality/reliable/trustworthy/truthful news sources, are especially important, for busy people and/or people who are NOT all that interested in the news, anyway.

TL;DR
Some have limited time and interest in the news.  But they want  a quick, minute or two, of the days headlines/summary of what has occurred.



Having the right to decide what to believe and think, is the primary human right

It is, but properly analyzing it (as I stated, earlier in this post), may exceed the skills, knowledge base and time resources, of the individual, who just wants to see the news, or a quick summary of it.

Whenever you use Wikipedia as a source, I recommend also looking at the history of the page

Wikipedia tends to be (sometimes), merely reasonable as a source (but in many cases, very useful and accurate), rather than outstanding, highly accurate, and other measures of high end quality sources.  In some cases, it can be plain wrong, or even edited by people with strong biases, and the wrong reasons, for updated/changing the article(s).  Which leads nicely on to my next section:

Same with the Russian media.  I don't want to know what they say because I think they are truthful, I want to know what they say because that describes what the powers that be there want to say

Newspapers/TV-channels, and similar news sources.  Should be basically truthful and accurate.  When, on a very regular basis, they are churning out complete lies.  Basically it is part of a huge disinformation and war propaganda machine, for the other side (enemy).

So I can well understand it being banned, in much/all of the West.

You are right, in saying that some (probably rare) individuals.  Can digest the information, and generate useful information, by reverse engineering the lying process or something.  But, the channel(s)/newspapers/etc, from a practical point of view.  Need to either be banned completely or allowed.
So, in the current circumstances (i.e. war(s) have started up), it makes lots of sense to clamp down on such arguably bad information sources.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 08:00:09 pm by MK14 »
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #245 on: May 04, 2022, 07:52:18 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."
That is what you are making of it. The reality is that the story is simply too thin for any paper to write it on. That should be a very clear sign! If there really was a story, the Republicans would have ran a marathon with it and go for an impeachment. And there is plenty of nuance in this thread but you are simply not seeing it.
The problem is, most news outlets, educational facilities and social media companies, in the US have a pro-Democrat bias. This is reflected on Wikipedia, which as I said before, even the left-wing Guardian paper considers to be pro-Democrat. It's fairly obvious they did their very best to ensure Trump was not re-elected. The Republicans do make a big deal out of it. Watch Fox News and conservative YouTubers and you'll find they talk about it a lot. We don't hear about it much in Europe because Trump is anti-EU, so our mainstream media also dislike him.

Note that I have no interest in the matter and consider both the current and previous US presidents to be as bad as each other, in different ways.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:14:27 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #246 on: May 04, 2022, 08:31:56 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. Unfortunately, the current condition in the US (at least the US, probably elsewhere too) is a deep divide between two groups that simply cannot comprehend the what the other is seeing. I know that I'm guilty myself. My own political views seem so obviously true that I'm sure every sane intelligent person agrees with me. Those that don't must be either stupid or deliberately crooked, right?

Given two presidents, A and B, very close to half of the population believes that A is truthfull with only good intentions while B is a filthy and corrupt. Meanwhile, the other half believe that A lies about everything for purely personal gain but B wears a white hat with the best of intentions for the country. It would seem that we can't count on the individual to see the truth without a lot of help.

It's a dumbfounding situation, but I can't think of any way to make it work other than to allow everyone to speak their piece, then provide close analysis and scrutiny of what was said by multiple 'experts'. Of course in practice, this hardly works because people listen to the experts that support whatever they already believe... Maybe more experts to fact check the first experts? Well, yeah, that's what free speech is supposed to be, but it doesn't seem to be freeing us from the circle that goes nowhere.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #247 on: May 04, 2022, 08:34:26 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. Unfortunately, the current condition in the US (at least the US, probably elsewhere too) is a deep divide between two groups

I think that's the whole point. People shoud maybe read Machiavelli.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #248 on: May 04, 2022, 08:50:58 pm »
So, it is not TOTALLY UNREASONABLE, for the people, Nominal Animal was talking to, to call them a "conspiracy theorist". Or if it was (unreasonable), it was not unreasonable for them to dispute the truthfulness of that story circulating at the time.
It is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE to call someone a conspiracy theorist, based on them not agreeing with the mainstream media. The mainstream media is the main source of conspiracy theories these days.

Media can get VERY complicated these days.  Several decades ago, things were much simpler. No internet, a range of newspapers, and only a handful of TV channels.  These days, with the explosion of the internet, with a mindbogglingly huge range of websites, hundreds or even thousands of TV channels to choose from, mobile phone communications, etc.
In addition to all of the above, we can get almost live pictures, from peoples mobile phones. Showing actual (almost) live events happen in front of them, posted onto social media, and other internet places. E.g. At the start of the Russian/Ukrainian war, mobile phone footage of Russian missiles, heading towards and blowing up parts of a Ukrainian airport, were widely circulated.

So in modern times.  It is somewhat or more, different, to e.g. World War 2.  Which was limited to some film footage (usually Black and White), Radio (very little or no TV) and newspapers.

With youtube, just about anyone, with a mobile phone, and internet connection.  Can rapidly post videos, of almost anything.  Including significantly political/war/current news events.  Which has a tendency to move the news media/TV out of the hands of government control.  With some exceptions, like the Great Internet Firewall of China.
EDIT: typos.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:10:46 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #249 on: May 04, 2022, 08:59:15 pm »
And yet, despite this somewhat unreasonable number of sources of information we have now, what I find amazing is that it's every bit as easy to manipulate the public opinion these days than it ever was, if not easier. =)
 
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