Author Topic: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back  (Read 30695 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #275 on: May 05, 2022, 11:34:04 pm »
So, you think they are going to crack down on all the garbage the US government has been spouting recently, that oscillates from month to month? I doubt it. I would be amazed if they did anything other than treat Orwell's works as operations manuals. Remember the US government has been doing things like labelling people who question how well we understand never before widely deployed technologies like mRNA pseudo-vaccines in the same way they label the people who question long term very well understood classes of true sterilising vaccines.

mRNA vaccines are not new, the technology was first developed as far back as the 1960s and has been studied over the next several decades, it has been used in animal vaccinations for years according to my vet and the Covid pandemic was motivation to further develop the technology. Calling it a "pseudo-vaccine" is silly, and based on what? That it isn't 100% effective? If you redefine the word "vaccine" to mean something that is 100% effective then no true vaccine exists. Yes any vaccine or other medication has risks, the long term risks take a long time to learn, but diseases also have risks and those risks also take a long time to learn. I really don't understand the controversy around the Covid vaccines, especially since the handful of people I've known that refuse to get it don't seem bothered by taking other medications, particularly some medications that are not approved and/or are known to have potentially serious side effects. I don't think opposition to the Covid vaccine is rational or scientific in any way, it is political, and rooted in the fact that people don't like being told what to do, myself included. If they had told that group that they were not allowed to get vaccinated they'd be lined up at the door with pitchforks and torches demanding a shot. The only reason there is pushback against the idiots that refuse to get it is that vaccines (of any sort) only work when a large enough segment of the population gets vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. My mom was around when the Polio vaccine was developed and remembers lining up in a big line as a nurse walked down the line and gave each person a jab. People trusted science back then and there was no pushback that she can recall, everyone just got it and countless lives were saved or improved by it.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #276 on: May 06, 2022, 12:32:44 am »
So, you think they are going to crack down on all the garbage the US government has been spouting recently, that oscillates from month to month? I doubt it. I would be amazed if they did anything other than treat Orwell's works as operations manuals. Remember the US government has been doing things like labelling people who question how well we understand never before widely deployed technologies like mRNA pseudo-vaccines in the same way they label the people who question long term very well understood classes of true sterilising vaccines.

mRNA vaccines are not new, the technology was first developed as far back as the 1960s and has been studied over the next several decades, it has been used in animal vaccinations for years according to my vet and the Covid pandemic was motivation to further develop the technology. Calling it a "pseudo-vaccine" is silly, and based on what? That it isn't 100% effective? If you redefine the word "vaccine" to mean something that is 100% effective then no true vaccine exists. Yes any vaccine or other medication has risks, the long term risks take a long time to learn, but diseases also have risks and those risks also take a long time to learn. I really don't understand the controversy around the Covid vaccines, especially since the handful of people I've known that refuse to get it don't seem bothered by taking other medications, particularly some medications that are not approved and/or are known to have potentially serious side effects. I don't think opposition to the Covid vaccine is rational or scientific in any way, it is political, and rooted in the fact that people don't like being told what to do, myself included. If they had told that group that they were not allowed to get vaccinated they'd be lined up at the door with pitchforks and torches demanding a shot. The only reason there is pushback against the idiots that refuse to get it is that vaccines (of any sort) only work when a large enough segment of the population gets vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. My mom was around when the Polio vaccine was developed and remembers lining up in a big line as a nurse walked down the line and gave each person a jab. People trusted science back then and there was no pushback that she can recall, everyone just got it and countless lives were saved or improved by it.
Robert Malone did the first work towards an mRNA vaccine in 1987. So, I don't know what your 1960s reference might be. I call it a pseudo-vaccine because just a couple of years ago an mRNA vaccine was described as a gene therapy, and not a vaccine. Then the naming suddenly shifted when it was commercially convenient.

I was around when polio vaccines were launched, and had early inoculation with one of them. So early the first dose was injected, and by the second dose they had realised you can squirt it on a sugar cube. They were used with somewhat limited testing, but for a disease with truly awful consequences. I was at school with people who were debilitated for life by polio before those inoculations arrived. You can't compare the cost benefit tradeoff for treating polio with a disease like COVID.

 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #277 on: May 06, 2022, 01:52:45 am »
If you feel you need an authority to tell you what is true and what is false, be my guest.  You will never, ever make me accept such an authority: I will make my own mind.

I guess you are responding to me here?

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If you insist that only information vetted by some arbitrary censor is allowed to be disseminated, I will oppose you.  It's that simple; free speech is that important.  In my own home country, it has already been lost to an alarming degree.

That is not what I am insisting. I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd. It's a free hosting service provided by a private company. For the most part that's not what's actually happening though. They are taking even weaker action and just making it harder to find by not recommending it or including it in search results; the content is usually still available directly.

Free speech is that important, and I'm not arguing that it isn't. However, I do think those with the ears of the people, so to speak, have an ethical responsibility not to abuse that influence, and part of that is not saying things that are misleading or outright incorrect. In my view, that role falls to YouTube and so on in our current environment, so I have no problem with them choosing to become more ethical and strict on what they propagate, much like journalists are meant to. If folks want to spread their misleading and incorrect drivel, they can host it themselves and still reach their followers far easier than in decades past. This is not at all at odds with free speech; free speech is about freedom from persecution, not the 'freedom' to have someone else host and spread your speech for you.

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Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."
I don't care about the Hunter Biden laptop and haven't really seen too many people commenting on that issue thankfully, because it is at best a diversion from the topic at hand. The source was extremely dubious, and I don't think it was compatible with journalistic ethics to publish about it (or at least about it's totally unverified contents) when it first came out because of how very suspicious the circumstances and timing of its surfacing were, and the fact that publishing it could easily influence the election which cannot be taken back with a retraction. Mouthing off about things like this when none of it has been verified is exactly what is eroding trust and integrity in journalism. Advocating for truth in reporting is directly at odds with this kind of mouth-running. Now some of it's been validated, at least they have something to ethically publish on, and the journalists you deride have done so in several prominent articles on what everyone can agree are top-tier sources of real journalism.

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There is no more search for the truth via journalism, only a demand that only factually verified non-offensive things should be allowed to be communicated. 
That the population should "trust media organizations and journalists to report exclusively on the truth [as] that is their role in society, and we should hold them to it", instead of considering journalism as a tool in discovering what is true and what is not; that it is for the journalists to report, and the readers to evaluate.

Why are you misquoting me to change the meaning of my statements? I did not say or suggest that the population 'should' trust journalists blindly, and in fact my statement was basically the opposite of how you have snipped my quote here. What I am saying is that journalists and journalism exist to report to us on their research into the truth so that we don't have to do that research ourselves. That is the one and only reason journalism exists: to provide a vetted secondary source of information on the events in the world so that we don't all have to do many duplicates of that same primary research. I am not saying this grants them the automatic and absolute trust of the people; it does not, and that is what I mean when I say we should 'hold them to it'; but that their job is to find and report on the truth and only the truth, and it is up to us as society to make sure they are doing it properly and ethically.

As it relates to the online platforms, I think the closest pre-Internet analogy that kind of works is with journalists / publishers, and the ethical considerations seem somewhat similar in my view. They are obviously not exactly the same thing, but there are a lot of parallels, and I think we are seeing the public start to call for similar standards of truth and ethics to be applied to the Internet publishers as we may previously have expected of book publishers. And similarly, there will always be counter-culture publishers and Internet platforms, and there's mostly nothing wrong with that.
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Offline Someone

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #278 on: May 06, 2022, 02:43:01 am »
I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd. It's a free hosting service provided by a private company. For the most part that's not what's actually happening though.

...I think we are seeing the public start to call for similar standards of truth and ethics to be applied to the Internet publishers as we may previously have expected of book publishers. And similarly, there will always be counter-culture publishers and Internet platforms, and there's mostly nothing wrong with that.
That should all be pretty obvious to most people, cant believe it needs restating. Where it gets interesting is that these platforms want it both ways: "we choose who/what appears" while simultaneously "we are not responsible for what appears as it was someone else". Quickly gets political!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #279 on: May 06, 2022, 06:35:34 am »
That is not what I am insisting. I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd.

But Youtube gets legal protection as a Platform, but wants the benefits of being a Publisher too. This is the big legal delemma.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #280 on: May 06, 2022, 06:39:15 am »
I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd. It's a free hosting service provided by a private company. For the most part that's not what's actually happening though.

...I think we are seeing the public start to call for similar standards of truth and ethics to be applied to the Internet publishers as we may previously have expected of book publishers. And similarly, there will always be counter-culture publishers and Internet platforms, and there's mostly nothing wrong with that.
That should all be pretty obvious to most people, cant believe it needs restating. Where it gets interesting is that these platforms want it both ways: "we choose who/what appears" while simultaneously "we are not responsible for what appears as it was someone else". Quickly gets political!
They can choose what not to publish. But then they become a publisher, not a platform. Which means they no longer should have legal protections platforms have and should be responsible for the content they publish and can be sued for what they publish. However they want editorial right of a publisher but responsibility of a platform.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #281 on: May 06, 2022, 06:59:10 am »
I really don't understand the controversy around the Covid vaccines, especially since the handful of people I've known that refuse to get it don't seem bothered by taking other medications, particularly some medications that are not approved and/or are known to have potentially serious side effects. I don't think opposition to the Covid vaccine is rational or scientific in any way, it is political, and rooted in the fact that people don't like being told what to do, myself included. If they had told that group that they were not allowed to get vaccinated they'd be lined up at the door with pitchforks and torches demanding a shot. The only reason there is pushback against the idiots that refuse to get it is that vaccines (of any sort) only work when a large enough segment of the population gets vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. My mom was around when the Polio vaccine was developed and remembers lining up in a big line as a nurse walked down the line and gave each person a jab. People trusted science back then and there was no pushback that she can recall, everyone just got it and countless lives were saved or improved by it.
There are perfectly rational reasons to be concerned about the COVID-19 vaccines. The risk of severe disease increases with age, yet the risk of vaccine side effects increases with decreasing age. There is evidence to suggest that at some point, the risk of certain vaccine complications, such as myocarditis, in some demographics, exceed that of catching the virus. Refer to the study in Nature Medicine for more information.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf
Here's a graph showing excess myocarditis in different population groups post-vaccine vs infection. The events post vaccination of Pfizer and Moderna, exceed those after infection in men under 40.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/mostly-dodgy-sars-cov-2-rapid-tests/?action=dlattach;attach=1386011;image

Now there are other bad things which COVID can do, so I'm not saying men under 40 shouldn't get the shot, just that it isn't always as clear cut as you've been led to believe. The study was also done when more pathogenic variants were in circulation. The rates of myocarditis, along with other complications, post Omicron are probably lower, but there isn't solid data, so it's speculation.

There's no data to support getting the vaccine, if you've already had the infection. The risk of hospitalisation, after subsequent infections, for those who've been vaccinated and infected before is the same as those who've only had the natural infection.  If you've already had COVID and recovered, then getting the shot makes no difference to your risk of severe illness, if you get it again, so it makes no sense to risk the vaccine side effects.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm#F1_down

The vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so implying the pandemic would've been over by now, if idiots got vaccinated is incorrect. It's people who use that kind of rhetoric are part of the problem. Insulting those who disagree with you is only going to make them feel more marginalised and won't help.

Herd immunity isn't happening and never will because the virus mutates and sterilising immunity doesn't last for long. Fortunately immunity from severe disease and death are long lived, which is why it's no longer a problem. The fact that Omicron is less pathogenic also helps, but increased immunity is a huge factor.

The double blind, placebo controlled trial for the vaccine was for two doses only, not a third, or fourth. It was also only in adults over 18. There isn't sold data to support how it's currently being used.

No, the government's vaccine policy doesn't follow the science and needs to be called out. I accepted it at the start and got the first two doses, but refused the third. I completely understand why some people won't get vaccinated.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #282 on: May 06, 2022, 08:26:02 am »
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #283 on: May 06, 2022, 11:17:28 am »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #284 on: May 06, 2022, 02:14:22 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
Indeed. Once power is seized, it is never given back willingly.

It baffles me how many times over in the history of the world we need to go through the same steps that lead to hell while entire segments of society loudly applaud this in the name of "safety", "reason", "progress", <put_your_favourite_noun_here>
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #285 on: May 06, 2022, 02:19:33 pm »
Indeed. Once power is seized, it is never given back willingly.

It baffles me how many times over in the history of the world we need to go through the same steps that lead to hell while entire segments of society loudly applaud this in the name of "safety", "reason", "progress", <put_your_favourite_noun_here>

1984, here we come!

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‘Orwell’s novella is a warning for the human race’

https://www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2016/may/29/1984-george-orwell-review

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1984 is a dystopian novella by George Orwell published in 1949, which follows the life of Winston Smith, a low ranking member of ‘the Party’, who is frustrated by the omnipresent eyes of the party, and its ominous ruler Big Brother.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #286 on: May 06, 2022, 05:17:27 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
No, you are not getting the point at all here. The aim is to make misinformation not resonate around so much. IOW: Stop the lies from spreading. If you tell a lie enough times, the masses will accept it as the truth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie ). Social media has become a very potent weapon to destabilise countries by attacking people's health and thus putting a strain on the society. Look at the anti-vaxers for example that are gaining enough followers to erode herd immunity away against serious deceases like Polio and Measles that where deemed eradicated. This is not an idle or theoretical threat; it is already happening for real and seems to be orchestrated by countries: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/02/australias-anti-vaccine-groups-switch-focus-to-putin-praise-and-ukraine-conspiracies

According to this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7849510/ social media, and the spreading of misinformation played a big role in the world wide hoarding of toilet paper. As if you are going to die without toilet paper  :palm:

And it happens closer to home as well... Every now and then my wife comes to me in a panic state about something that (to me) is obviously a hoax but since she heard it from several friends / family members through social media she thinks it is true.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 05:42:04 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #287 on: May 06, 2022, 05:33:49 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
No, you are not getting the point at all here. The aim is to make misinformation not resonate around so much. IOW: Stop the lies from spreading. If you tell a lie enough times, the masses will accept it as the truth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie ). Social media has become a very potent weapon to destabilise countries by attacking people's health and thus putting a strain on the society. Look at the anti-vaxers for example that are gaining enough followers to erode herd immunity away against serious deceases like Polio and Measles that where deemed eradicated. This is not an idle or theoretical threat; it is already happening for real: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/02/australias-anti-vaccine-groups-switch-focus-to-putin-praise-and-ukraine-conspiracies

And it happens closer to home as well... Every now and then my wife comes to me in a panic state about something that (to me) is obviously a hoax but since she heard it from several friends / family members through social media she thinks it is true.
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?

We cannot trust any government because they're all open to corruption and often clueless themselves. How about medical bodies such as the World Health Organisation? No, they're also open to corruption by big pharma. What about educational institutions such as big name universities? Again no, as they accept funding from private companies and are controlled by governments. What about journalists? Again no, they're just as corrupt and worse still incompetent.

To summarise: I agree, misinformation is a problem, but believe what is being proposed isn't the solution and will make things worse, rather than better. I would rather people be free to spread misinformation on the Internet, where it can be rebuked accordingly, rather than censorship.

Guns, Drugs, and Skin Bleaching: YouTube Kids Still Poses Risks to Children: https://www.techtransparencyproject.org/articles/guns-drugs-and-skin-bleaching-youtube-kids-still-poses-risks-children
I've noticed many things go over young children's heads, so not all of that's as bad as it seems,

One thing to note is what's unsuitable for children is a matter of opinion and often depends on one's place on the political spectrum. The right are generally more concerned about topics of a sexual nature, critical race theory and gender ideology, whilst the left are more worried about guns, violence and white supremacy. My personally view is all of the aforementioned are bad, although it does worry me that some bad actors are indoctrinating children with political propaganda.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:29:20 pm by Zero999 »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #288 on: May 06, 2022, 05:44:48 pm »
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #289 on: May 06, 2022, 05:47:06 pm »
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
Of all the spreaders of misinformation we face, governments are the worst. The second worst are journalists. You want to make them arbiters of truth?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #290 on: May 06, 2022, 06:03:59 pm »
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
Of all the spreaders of misinformation we face, governments are the worst. The second worst are journalists. You want to make them arbiters of truth?
I already answered that question if you read the part you quoted carefully enough. Unless ofcourse you have a better idea (which I doubt is the case). You can be very hung up on 'freedom of speech' but if you fail to see that it is being actively used against you to undermine your wealth, health and values, then you are throwing the baby away with the bath water.

And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:05:46 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #291 on: May 06, 2022, 06:12:18 pm »
And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
You really try hard to miss the point. NO government can ever be trusted. Give me government like power for a while, and I'd probably soon turn into the kind of person I'd loathe. Any reasonable system of government is structured to minimise its power. Not let it sweep through society throwing its weight around.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #292 on: May 06, 2022, 06:33:33 pm »
There are big reasons why both governments and corporations are so reliably unreliable. They have so much to hide. Every day I read about new atrocities.

They cant hide the truth.

You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
Of all the spreaders of misinformation we face, governments are the worst. The second worst are journalists. You want to make them arbiters of truth?
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #293 on: May 06, 2022, 06:37:02 pm »
And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
And upon what information do people use, to inform them of who to vote for? Newspapers, TV, the Internet. If they're all manipulated by the government, then democracy can't exist, since the government will always put out information to keep the current regime in power.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 12:23:35 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #294 on: May 06, 2022, 06:40:58 pm »
In some (scary) parts of the world, everybody who is free, the non slaves, carry potentially lethal weapons most of the time, and life is cheap. death from them is fairly common.. should we prefer that?

And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
You really try hard to miss the point. NO government can ever be trusted. Give me government like power for a while, and I'd probably soon turn into the kind of person I'd loathe. Any reasonable system of government is structured to minimise its power. Not let it sweep through society throwing its weight around.

But, as you pointed out, they almost always do.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #295 on: May 06, 2022, 06:44:28 pm »
And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
And upon what information do people use, to inform them of who to vote for? Newspapers, TV, the Internet. If they're all manipulated by the government, then democracy can't exist, since the government will always put out information to keep the current regime in power.

Well, at least some bullshit is predictable. All thieves want to legitimate their plunder. But since Jan 1, 1995 certain rules tie countries hands. Its so that global capital remains mobile. See the Trilemma. It has certain effects, making the already powerful more so and the powerless even more powerless. The era of democracy was a brief anomaly caused by the Industrial revolution and its labor scarcity, and WWII  a rare exception that ended  at 11.59 PM on December 31, 1994, because its inconsistent with the protection of certain internationally traded assets. The era that most of us grew up during really was an economic anomaly in history.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:53:44 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #296 on: May 06, 2022, 10:14:08 pm »
We cannot trust any government because they're all open to corruption and often clueless themselves. How about medical bodies such as the World Health Organisation? No, they're also open to corruption by big pharma. What about educational institutions such as big name universities? Again no, as they accept funding from private companies and are controlled by governments. What about journalists? Again no, they're just as corrupt and worse still incompetent.

It would seem the only logical action for any of us is to build a private survival shelter and fill it with weapons and nonperishable food. That way we can protect ourselves from the entire rest of the world, absolutely none of which can be trusted.

That isn't at all appealing to me and I'm not even going to look down that road, never mind travel down it. You have to trust someone, at least conditionally.

Quote
To summarise: I agree, misinformation is a problem, but believe what is being proposed isn't the solution and will make things worse, rather than better. I would rather people be free to spread misinformation on the Internet, where it can be rebuked accordingly, rather than censorship.

I agree that any kind of throttling of information is a slippery slope. Ideologically, we want to believe that misinformation will be identified publicly. Then everyone will know what is true and what is false. Not just that, but everyone will see where the information comes from, so everyone will learn who we should trust in the future and who we shouldn't.

Unfortunately, this becomes not just a way to battle misinformation, but a tool to spread it. If someone is spreading a 'truth' that is in competition with mine, then I can promote my own by publicly calling them a liar, saying that they're spreading misinformation, maybe part of a big conspiracy. Some other people will retort that I'm the liar and that I'm spreading misinformation, etc. Ultimately it will become difficult (or impossible) for most people to separate information from disinformation. The ideology of free speech will have been shown to fail.

That's where we are today. Even blatant lies are given a pass in this morass of 'information.'. Not just subtle forms of misinformation and manipulation, but lies that are easily shown to be false, and obviously known to be false by the person speaking the lie. As a weapon, misinformation might cause some self-inflicted injury, but it can do much more injury to the enemy, so it's a weapon that is heavily exploited. (We all believe that it's used more heavily by the other side than by our side, but I'm not sure that it matters if there's an imbalance or not. It's just not a productive point of discussion. We need to focus on individuals, not 'sides.')

Having said that, I'm still not ready to trade the ideology of totally free speech for a different one.  :box:
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 10:16:19 pm by eugene »
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #297 on: May 07, 2022, 09:46:44 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.
A subtle difference: it's Truth Incorporated, so they aren't bound by any of that "constitution" rubbish :-DD

American liberals love pointing out that the Bill of Rights prohibits the government from taking certain actions, but not private corporations. Freedom, man!
The argument that some common sense should be applied when corporations attempt to usurp powers typically held by governments completely flies over their head.
 
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Offline RJSV

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #298 on: May 09, 2022, 04:30:50 am »
Check out my personal experience, recently:
   To set this up, I have to 'deflect' some parts, to protect privacy (of others), so let's just say, a close equivalent:.  Say, I'm 16, under legal control, by parent  'Mary'...or perhaps I'm 42, under ' Freddy', a manager at job.
   Now, I've mentioned to this 'Mary' a couple items, relating to former President (Trump), and the US country.  Analysis stuff I heard watching cable channel '321', whatever, but it was compelling LOGIC relating to
a common situation.  Next thing I know; I get labeled by this 'boss', Freddy, he saying: "You're just another Hannity /Fox News puppet...".
   Now, clearly, I was repeating material from elsewhere, but NO, not according to 'Freddy', as he issues the phrase 'Fox News, Fox News', notwithstanding  my denials (repeated), saying "Nope, I heard that political analysis on channel 321, I don't watch Fox all that much, and Hannity I found slightly annoying, at worst."
   Then I probably responded with, "That's a fake Albatross, you are hanging around my neck", an old old expression referring to 'smears', dirty rumors.  But have to be careful: that 'Mary' parent, or 'Freddy' department manager has power...real tangible power and I don't want to, or cannot, afford to make 'trouble', pressing my points politely, (even while the other party is, actually, getting into personal ABUSE, territory!).
  Next,... that person, starts in with the censor stuff:
Saying things like "...We need to STIFLE that news channel,..perhaps ban FOX News /Hannity speach, for sure...".
   My gawd;. My mention of channel 321 analysis has triggered a 'ban Fox' mantra, (very grossly incorrect), plus coupled with an abusive 'smear' that I might not wish to challenge!
   So,... calls to ban 'Fox News', or create new 'crimes' of speech ???  (Remember, it's channel 321, NOT Fox channel that I was quoting).  That's so far off-base from common sense, (if you can follow my convoluted logic, here, LOL), that I just gotta say:
   No #@$#34$#@ Way...(insert your own cuss words).
 

Offline John B

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #299 on: May 20, 2022, 10:10:44 pm »
Odysee must have done some sever upgrades as their bandwidth has improved immensely  :-+
 


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