Circuit Studio reboot

[jtowich]

I've been using Circuit Studio for over a year, not real happy with Altium's lack of support. But today I got an email, on July 6 CS price will drop to $995 with $150 yearly maintenance. Those who have paid the full price (up to $3k) will get a lifetime subscription to updates, no maintenance fees ever. Long awaited update v1.2 was released and a promise of v2 by the end of the year.

Glad to see it not dying. Those who paid the full price may be irked, but the lifetime subscription should ease the pain. Hope Altium/Newark does a better job this round.

[ebclr]

I would expand my money on this, instead of the Kid toy expensive pcb software proteus. At least Altium is pró

[alexmackuk]

I paid the full price and I am not irked .

I've been using it extensively since it was released  (and moaning at Altium to get behind it). The lifetime support, maintenance and upgrades seem like a pretty fair reward for being an early adopter.

I'm glad to see the product moving forward again and at <$1000 it is an absolute steal.

I was offered an upgrade to Altium Designer and I've used AD professionally when I'm on contract but to be honest I prefer the UI of Circuit Studio, I do not need the higher-end features of AD (and I can work around most limitations ) and even at the previous prices the initial cost of AD and the ongoing/maintenance costs were just far more than I was willing to pay for my own use.

Oh, BTW I've got Proteus Level 3 with Advanced Simulation too and I shall probably be keeping that current to support legacy projects. Of the two I would say that Circuit Studio is more capable but Proteus is by no means bad and, specifically, the options for simulation in Proteus are way better. The reporting and diagnostics of Circuit Studio are superior and when managing complex track widths, pad-stacks, different clearances for different power rails and such the 'rules' based approach of CS/Altium is much easier to manage and control. As usual though with great power comes great complexity and I would say it is easier to screw up in CS. Oh, push routing is very nice too... but that has been promised soon in Proteus... although obviously it's already present and functional in CS.

[ebclr]

Take a look at this

My 1st impression is good

https://www.quadcept.com

[PCB.Wiz]

Interesting news.  I have a couple of questions which perhaps someone might kindly be able to help answer?

(a) I gather from some of the 2015 time-frame reviews that stability and feature completeness (missing essential and non working features) were early problems.  How stable and well featured is CS presently?

Keep in mind that missing essential and non working features may  well be deliberate product positioning decisions.
Altium do not want CS to eat AD's lunch. (but they do want to avoid users choosing something else, like Eagle, KiCad etc )

IIRC there was a comparison PDF at Element14*, and one removal that made me chuckle was circular holes only in CS, no slots.
Usually things like Scripts and Import/Export are also crippled, again it's all about turf protection.

Whenever you know a EDA vendor has a higher-end offering, you can be sure they carefully control the features missing in the low end offering.
A Classic case of  the old sales trick of " The BIG print giveth and the fine print taketh away"

Found it here
https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-76216/l/circuitstudio-by-altium-vs-altium-designer-feature-and-specification-comparison

[Monkeh]

Interesting news.  I have a couple of questions which perhaps someone might kindly be able to help answer?

(a) I gather from some of the 2015 time-frame reviews that stability and feature completeness (missing essential and non working features) were early problems.  How stable and well featured is CS presently?

Keep in mind that missing essential and non working features may  well be deliberate product positioning decisions.
Altium do not want CS to eat AD's lunch. (but they do want to avoid users choosing something else, like Eagle, KiCad etc )

IIRC there was a comparison PDF at Element14*, and one removal that made me chuckle was circular holes only in CS, no slots.
Usually things like Scripts and Import/Export are also crippled, again it's all about turf protection.

Whenever you know a EDA vendor has a higher-end offering, you can be sure they carefully control the features missing in the low end offering.
A Classic case of  the old sales trick of " The BIG print giveth and the fine print taketh away"

Found it here
https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-76216/l/circuitstudio-by-altium-vs-altium-designer-feature-and-specification-comparison

So if you pay for Circuit Studio you get less than Circuit Maker offers.

Hilarious.

[LabSpokane]

Interesting news.  I have a couple of questions which perhaps someone might kindly be able to help answer?

(a) I gather from some of the 2015 time-frame reviews that stability and feature completeness (missing essential and non working features) were early problems.  How stable and well featured is CS presently?

Keep in mind that missing essential and non working features may  well be deliberate product positioning decisions.
Altium do not want CS to eat AD's lunch. (but they do want to avoid users choosing something else, like Eagle, KiCad etc )

IIRC there was a comparison PDF at Element14*, and one removal that made me chuckle was circular holes only in CS, no slots.
Usually things like Scripts and Import/Export are also crippled, again it's all about turf protection.

Whenever you know a EDA vendor has a higher-end offering, you can be sure they carefully control the features missing in the low end offering.
A Classic case of  the old sales trick of " The BIG print giveth and the fine print taketh away"

Found it here
https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-76216/l/circuitstudio-by-altium-vs-altium-designer-feature-and-specification-comparison

So if you pay for Circuit Studio you get less than Circuit Maker offers.

Hilarious.

Don't believe everything you read. Slots are no problem in CS. It's miles better than anything I saw in CM.

Most of those "missing" features are gingerbread.

[Monkeh]

Don't believe everything you read. Slots are no problem in CS. It's miles better than anything I saw in CM.

So they just can't make their mind up? I suppose that's not news.

[LabSpokane]

Don't believe everything you read. Slots are no problem in CS. It's miles better than anything I saw in CM.

So they just can't make their mind up? I suppose that's not news.

If Altium sticks with $1k for CS, they will kill the competition. What is there is meat and potatoes PCB design. This gets CS out of the pricing  valley of death. Before everyone bashes CS into the ground, I'd recommend a trying it. Between the vault, the ease of manual routing, autorouting, And documentation generation tools, there's a lot to like. Will you design cell phones on it? Of course not.

[PCB.Wiz]

Don't believe everything you read. Slots are no problem in CS. It's miles better than anything I saw in CM.

Most of those "missing" features are gingerbread.

Hmm, so do not believe the PDF's ?

What about important (non gingerbread) things like Shove on Trace move, and Scripting, and Import/Export ?

The more I field test KiCad's Shove router, the more I like it. (eg It has a rather smarter polygon-drag engine, than Mentor's shove router.)

[LabSpokane]

Don't believe everything you read. Slots are no problem in CS. It's miles better than anything I saw in CM.

Most of those "missing" features are gingerbread.

Hmm, so do not believe the PDF's ?

What about important (non gingerbread) things like Shove on Trace move, and Scripting, and Import/Export ?

The more I field test KiCad's Shove router, the more I like it. (eg It has a rather smarter polygon-drag engine, than Mentor's shove router.)

If you're talking slotted holes, I just made those today. Works fine. As for slotted pads, I'll check later.

The features to value proposition works for me at $1k. If it doesn't for you, fine. 

And behold: slotted pads.  And I managed to do it without instructions after 1 day on the job...

[PCB.Wiz]

If you're talking slotted holes, I just made those today. Works fine. As for slotted pads, I'll check later.

The features to value proposition works for me at $1k. If it doesn't for you, fine.

Given the inaccuracy of the PDFs, I was attempting to better define what that 'features to value proposition' actually is, on the real product.
Are these confirmed as missing (DOCs say they are not there, or limited)

Does CS have Shove Router ?
Does CS have scripting ?
What formats can CS import/Export ?

[LabSpokane]

If you're talking slotted holes, I just made those today. Works fine. As for slotted pads, I'll check later.

The features to value proposition works for me at $1k. If it doesn't for you, fine.

Given the inaccuracy of the PDFs, I was attempting to better define what that 'features to value proposition' actually is, on the real product.
Are these confirmed as missing (DOCs say they are not there, or limited)

Does CS have Shove Router ?
Does CS have scripting ?
What formats can CS import/Export ?

By "shove router" if you mean it automatically reroutes a trace while dragging it with the mouse, yes and it is brilliant.

No clue on the others.

If you really want to know all the details, just download it and request a 30 day demo license. I'm hoping the $995 is real. Compared to Eagle, that's just too good to be true.

[PCB.Wiz]

By "shove router" if you mean it automatically reroutes a trace while dragging it with the mouse, yes and it is brilliant.

Shove routers push/shove other traces and vias out of the way, to make a path.
A routing tool that keeps clearance, but does not shove, is more sketch/guided routing.

[EEVblog]

I've been using Circuit Studio for over a year, not real happy with Altium's lack of support. But today I got an email, on July 6 CS price will drop to $995 with $150 yearly maintenance.

I don't like saying "I told them so" (no one would buy it at the price), but , I told them so 

[EEVblog]

Can Circuit Studio save and load Altium Designer files, and vice-versa?
If so I think I'm sold at $1k, it is the killer price point I told them over and over again would work.

[EEVblog]

Woah, no basic manufacturing DRC in CS?

Basic manufacturing rules Annular ring, acute angle, hole size, layer pairs, hole to
hole clearance, minimum solder mask sliver, silk to solder
mask, silk to silk, net antennae, silk to board region

[EEVblog]

I hope it is true. Once at a time AD was dropped to $3k, and now it is back to $6k (both without mandatory 1 year subscription).

I remember that day vividly!
Nick Martin called everyone into the canteen at the old Altium building at Frenches Forest as a said (close enough direct quote) "We are burning our bridges, we can't go back to high priced tools"
(They slashed prices by 75%)
Within 12 months the price was creeping back up to normal 
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1311978

[janoc]

Take a look at this

My 1st impression is good

https://www.quadcept.com

Cheesy website that crashes browsers with all those stupid "slides" and videos, talks about "makers" and the top-most feature listed is - cloud (and subscription based licensing).

Sorry, first impression is - "don't wanna ..."

[EEVblog]

If you really want to know all the details, just download it and request a 30 day demo license. I'm hoping the $995 is real. Compared to Eagle, that's just too good to be true.

Even with the limitations compared to AD, yes, it blows Eagle out of the water.
Coincidental timing with Autodesk buying Eagle?

[mikeselectricstuff]

I wonder how scared PCB software manufacturers are that Kicad will become a viable alternative?
(I've not used it so no idea how close it's getting, but have seen plenty of decent PCBs done with it)

[PCB.Wiz]

Can Circuit Studio save and load Altium Designer files, and vice-versa?

Only with Caveats ( of course!)

Another forum has this (oct 2015)
"2. CS does not support the importation of AD14 file formats. Currently, we support anything AD10 and older to include PCAD (Along with just about all mainstream competitive formats). However, you will want to make sure that you load all of the importers from the Extensions and Updates panel in CS..."

Can you save back to AD10 from a AD14+ system ? (or save to the expected P-CAD format ?)
P-CAD (ACCEL_NETLIST looks a nice standard that can open in Eagle and kiCad).
Can CS export P-CAD ?

[tszaboo]

Can Circuit Studio save and load Altium Designer files, and vice-versa?
If so I think I'm sold at $1k, it is the killer price point I told them over and over again would work.

AD opens CS files no problem. CS can import eagle, and I think it can import AD through some 3rd party export. Which is ludicrous. And you cannot open AD library. All your libraries have to be re-created in CS. They have a bunch of standard IPC footprint in one of the folders, to help you. But you know what was the real let-down for me? They had a bunch of USB connector footprints. So I opened them. Something did not look OK. So i figured out, they should have used slotted holes for the connector, but since it does not support it, it was a much smaller round hole. No-one even bothered looking at it at Altium, seeing if what they release is any good.
CS is also slow. Meaning you cannot do things fast in it. Intentionally. And the "please wait a moment"-"catastrophic failure" error messages start happening at 500MB memory usage.

[EEVblog]

I wonder how scared PCB software manufacturers are that Kicad will become a viable alternative?

I doubt they are worried. They know it's never going to be good enough (not just technically) to convince companies to take it up instead of the established tools.

[EEVblog]

AD opens CS files no problem. CS can import eagle, and I think it can import AD through some 3rd party export. Which is ludicrous.

 

And you cannot open AD library. All your libraries have to be re-created in CS.

       

[EEVblog]

Another forum has this (oct 2015)
"2. CS does not support the importation of AD14 file formats. Currently, we support anything AD10 and older to include PCAD (Along with just about all mainstream competitive formats). However, you will want to make sure that you load all of the importers from the Extensions and Updates panel in CS..."

Altium did the stupidest thing possible with their tools.
They now have now created 3 separate tools they have to maintain instead of 1.
CM brings them in no money at all, ever. CS bought them in no money because they priced it stupidly, but now might get decent traction and some money. But the high end tool will always bring in 90% of Altium's revenue.
They should have just crippled AD and gone back to how it was 15 years when you could buy various option licences.
Although trying to make it easier to use for beginners wasn't a bad thing. Not sure it needed a whole new program to do that though.

[EEVblog]

If Altium sticks with $1k for CS, they will kill the competition. What is there is meat and potatoes PCB design. This gets CS out of the pricing  valley of death.

I wonder how many they sold at that ridiculous price?
They also need to drop Farnell selling the thing, that's just stupid.
They tell you to click here to buy it:


Then you get this crap with no pricing and makes you think you have to "Request A Quote"!


It's just STUPID! 

But if you add it to your cart you see the pricing, which is still $4119


Just put a frigg'n PayPal button your website Altium, geeze.

[mikeselectricstuff]

They also need to drop Farnell selling the thing, that's just stupid.

Absolutely - it's is just stupid to give money to a distributor for something that doesn't need to have a physical deliverable.
Unless they had a very low-cost version that they couyld throw at Farnell just to get some exposure, which is the only value Farnell could add to something like this.

Another exanple of this stupidity is this (USB stack IP) which is also likely to need significant support that would be way out of Farnell's depth :
 http://uk.farnell.com/micrium/usb-usbd-pkg000-p-p1/usb-device-ctrl-stack-single-licence/dp/2492008

[EEVblog]

Unless they had a very low-cost version that they couyld throw at Farnell just to get some exposure, which is the only value Farnell could add to something like this.

Farnell have bugger-all exposure. No one uses their stupid website community. Best they have is their newsletter.
They'd get orders of magnitude more exposure on blogs like ours.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Unless they had a very low-cost version that they couyld throw at Farnell just to get some exposure, which is the only value Farnell could add to something like this.

Farnell have bugger-all exposure. No one uses their stupid website community. Best they have is their newsletter.
They'd get orders of magnitude more exposure on blogs like ours.

I'm not talking about the community - I mean banners on their website, and even their paper catalogue - they already have a large base of people using their website every day, and it's about as well-targetted as you can get for electronics professionals, so having your product there has to be of value in terms of product awareness.   

[bombledmonk]

They also need to drop Farnell selling the thing, that's just stupid.

Absolutely - it's is just stupid to give money to a distributor for something that doesn't need to have a physical deliverable.
Unless they had a very low-cost version that they couyld throw at Farnell just to get some exposure, which is the only value Farnell could add to something like this.

The primary reason for this is that many companies already have easy paths to do business with distribution.  It's probably less relevant for this price level, but dropping $1K at Digi-Key or Farnell is often a much easier proposition than getting approvals to buy off some random 3rd party site (Altium). 

[EEVblog]

I'm not talking about the community - I mean banners on their website, and even their paper catalogue - they already have a large base of people using their website every day, and it's about as well-targetted as you can get for electronics professionals, so having your product there has to be of value in terms of product awareness.

Do they actually advertise it on there though?
They have thousands of other items to advertise too, so (apart from the odd occasion) I'm doubting it unless Altium paid them.

[EEVblog]

The primary reason for this is that many companies already have easy paths to do business with distribution.  It's probably less relevant for this price level, but dropping $1K at Digi-Key or Farnell is often a much easier proposition than getting approvals to buy off some random 3rd party site (Altium).

True. But to make it the only place you can buy it, big mistake. Element 14's product page is repulsive.
Sub $1k will be under a lot of companies CAPEX limits too.

[EEVblog]

I think this CS move is great, but I still think this mid range product is completely unnecessary.
The original proposal Altium had for Circuit Maker that had cheap paid timed licenses for various upgraded features was a clear winner. I saw a demo of this and it was close to release, but they scrapped it and changed direction and gave CM away and then produced this mid range Circuit Studio. Silly.

[LabSpokane]

I wonder how scared PCB software manufacturers are that Kicad will become a viable alternative?

I doubt they are worried. They know it's never going to be good enough (not just technically) to convince companies to take it up instead of the established tools.

Not many astute business people are going to gamble their future on free. Free and open software has a few successes, but there are at least 100x examples of failures where development stopped suddenly due to personality conflicts, loss of interest, etc.

[LabSpokane]

I think this CS move is great, but I still think this mid range product is completely unnecessary.
The original proposal Altium had for Circuit Maker that had cheap paid timed licenses for various upgraded features was a clear winner. I saw a demo of this and it was close to release, but they scrapped it and changed direction and gave CM away and then produced this mid range Circuit Studio. Silly.

The free tool is stupid in my opinion from a business standpoint. It got a lot of people developing PCBs, but from a CADSoft business standpoint, it was totally pointless.  The business was sold twice in quick succession for a reason. 

The $1000 professional stepping stone is brilliant from the standpoint of getting the one person shows into the game. I appreciate the simpler interface. There is still a lot of sophistication there.

Altium needs to shitcan circuit maker and sell a crippled version of studio for $10-20/mo.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I wonder how scared PCB software manufacturers are that Kicad will become a viable alternative?

I doubt they are worried. They know it's never going to be good enough (not just technically) to convince companies to take it up instead of the established tools.

Not many astute business people are going to gamble their future on free. Free and open software has a few successes, but there are at least 100x examples of failures where development stopped suddenly due to personality conflicts, loss of interest, etc.

True but if it gets to the point of being decent, they then it's potentially less risky as it can be maintained independently & not be at risk from the supplier doing something stupid,hiking maintain cost etc.
There may be an opportunity for someone to offer a paid support service.

[Ice-Tea]

So, like, Altium is modifying their licence/subscription policies? I'm so surprised!

[LabSpokane]

I wonder how scared PCB software manufacturers are that Kicad will become a viable alternative?

I doubt they are worried. They know it's never going to be good enough (not just technically) to convince companies to take it up instead of the established tools.

Not many astute business people are going to gamble their future on free. Free and open software has a few successes, but there are at least 100x examples of failures where development stopped suddenly due to personality conflicts, loss of interest, etc.

True but if it gets to the point of being decent, they then it's potentially less risky as it can be maintained independently & not be at risk from the supplier doing something stupid,hiking maintain cost etc.
There may be an opportunity for someone to offer a paid support service.

Being the capitalist pigdog swine that I am, I always look at it from a point of labor costs. The minute I dedicate a software engineer to maintaining something like KiCad, it's $100K per year minimum, and that's to do everything wrong.  Doing it somewhat right starts at $500K, minimum.  That means I would need dozens of seats to justify that expenditure. While certainly possible, I don't see many companies jumping into something like that - at least not successfully over the long term.

Even the custom ERP programs of yore required several bodies to maintain.

[PCB.Wiz]

I wonder how scared PCB software manufacturers are that Kicad will become a viable alternative?

I doubt they are worried. They know it's never going to be good enough (not just technically) to convince companies to take it up instead of the established tools.

Of course they are worried. That concern is partly what is driving this new positioning.

Companies are already using open source tools and products, middle management may just not realise how much.

Many here are likely posting on Chrome, and using Python in their daily tasks.
Some will be Debugging using Eclipse and some will be compiling on GCC
Even a dig into the DOC section of  expensive commercial EDA tools, finds licenses for Python, Pearl, GNUxx, Creative Commons etc

[PCB.Wiz]

Not many astute business people are going to gamble their future on free. Free and open software has a few successes, but there are at least 100x examples of failures where development stopped suddenly due to personality conflicts, loss of interest, etc.

This is only partly right, by focusing on 'free' you miss the real point.
Your second comment gets closer, and nicely shows the importance of Critical Mass in the Open Source arena.
(There are also many commercial EDA tools that are no longer with us. Being 'not free' is no guarantee of longevity )

Do you use Chrome, Python, Eclipse, OpenOffice (or variants) or GCC ? 
Those are all open source projects, that have reached critical mass, and are widely used by people in business.

[LabSpokane]

The $995 price for Circuit Studio is now live on Newark. Annual maintenance is $150.

http://www.newark.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=altium&catalogId=15003&categoryId=800000004017&langId=-1&storeId=10194

[leonhart88]

Wait, so now you can buy Circuit Studio for $995 and then upgrade to Altium Designer for an additional $1495??

So you can get Altium Designer for <$3000?

[tszaboo]

Wait, so now you can buy Circuit Studio for $995 and then upgrade to Altium Designer for an additional $1495??

So you can get Altium Designer for <$3000?

Probably not. Even if you will try it, they will just tell you that was for the original price.

[bombledmonk]

Wait, so now you can buy Circuit Studio for $995 and then upgrade to Altium Designer for an additional $1495??

So you can get Altium Designer for <$3000?

Read that more carefully....
CircuitStudio license holders are eligible for an exclusive upgrade option at
$1,495USD* off list price of a new Altium Designer license.

[leonhart88]

Wait, so now you can buy Circuit Studio for $995 and then upgrade to Altium Designer for an additional $1495??

So you can get Altium Designer for <$3000?

Read that more carefully....
CircuitStudio license holders are eligible for an exclusive upgrade option at
$1,495USD* off list price of a new Altium Designer license.

Ah, righto.

Regardless, the new pricing for CS seems much more reasonable than before.

[jmarkwolf]

I paid the full price and I am not irked .

I've been using it extensively since it was released  (and moaning at Altium to get behind it). The lifetime support, maintenance and upgrades seem like a pretty fair reward for being an early adopter.

I'm glad to see the product moving forward again and at <$1000 it is an absolute steal.

Same here.

I've been using Altium Designer for years, and Protel for years before that. Circuit Studio is missing some familiar features, but I can live with it. Never used 80% of the Altium bloat anyway.

I bought Circuit Studio for home/retirement use when it was first released (negotiated a lower price), and am thrilled to get lifetime free updates (if it's true).

I wish they would offer options to go back to the "standard" Altium menus and include their Gerber editor. Maybe on a subsequent release. (yeah, right  )

[jmarkwolf]

I've been using Circuit Studio for over a year, not real happy with Altium's lack of support. But today I got an email, on July 6 CS price will drop to $995 with $150 yearly maintenance. Those who have paid the full price (up to $3k) will get a lifetime subscription to updates, no maintenance fees ever. Long awaited update v1.2 was released and a promise of v2 by the end of the year.

Glad to see it not dying. Those who paid the full price may be irked, but the lifetime subscription should ease the pain. Hope Altium/Newark does a better job this round.

I wonder if you could post that message or copy it to me. I'm a registered owner and got no such notice.

I tried to update my software today but my support expired in April. I suppose

I could renew my support for the new fee, but if they're waiving the fee to early adopters I'd rather spend the money on something else.

[PCB.Wiz]

Can someone with the latest CS list the File export / Save As options ?
Altium have lots of fluff, but that important detail is missing ?

eg DXF export / Import ?
P-CAD Export / Import ?
any other ASCII file exports / Imports ?

[PCB.Wiz]

... and include their Gerber editor.

There is always GerbView in KiCad, GerbV in gEDA, and a commercial GerbView (http://www.softwarecompanions.com/gbupdate.html)  is also affordable & looks actively supported ?

[tszaboo]

Same here.

I've been using Altium Designer for years, and Protel for years before that. Circuit Studio is missing some familiar features, but I can live with it. Never used 80% of the Altium bloat anyway.

I bought Circuit Studio for home/retirement use when it was first released (negotiated a lower price), and am thrilled to get lifetime free updates (if it's true).

I wish they would offer options to go back to the "standard" Altium menus and include their Gerber editor. Maybe on a subsequent release. (yeah, right  )

I think you can forget that. They want to avoid users goint AD ->CS route, only something else -> CS->AD. I doubt they will ever add PCB and SCH list. That would avoid the double click on every component, and it would make you productive.
So here is the thing: I consider myself an Altium professional, being spent 1000+ hours using their designer. I used CS for the trial month, evaluating it, and actually designing something. It was not productive enough. I found myself doing the same operation over and over again, because features were missing. And the library incompatibility meant: A) download it from the vault, and hope for the best B) creating your own component. B is fine. I did B a lot of times. When I have the IPC wizzard. And I dont want to make B for a resistor. I have a library for resistors, I want to use that.
Since none bothers releasing CSlibs, that means you are on your own. I cannot use the Würth component libraries. Or the TI libraries. Or the ones I created in the past. All gone. I couldnt use the Altium libraires that some manufacturer made for some proprietary stuff, so I almost goofed up the PCB. I did not, because I did not finish it in that month, and we bought AD. Thanks, otherwise I might have started looking for a new job.

[PCB.Wiz]

When CS was first released, I tried to reverse engineer the file format of cspcbxxx. It seems like they are PKZIP compressed zip files, same as AD's.
What's different is it naming conventions of folders. AD uses human readable names, while CS uses GUIDs. I didn't proceed ahead, but I bet they never bother to actually change file format inside each file.
So, creating a cspcbxxx to pcbxxx converter should be possible. Since anyway I have a license for AD, I never bothered doing so.

Ugh.  This extreme binary closure, is no good for the end user, & only the illusion of benefit for the vendor.
Customers should rightly not touch this silliness with a barge pole. Far too much risk exposure here.

[EEVblog]

Might be a coincidence, but Altium marketing just offered me a free Circuit Studio license.

[LabSpokane]

Might be a coincidence, but Altium marketing just offered me a free Circuit Studio license.

Take them up on it. I think it's good for three CPUs IIRC.

[trophosphere]

Might be a coincidence, but Altium marketing just offered me a free Circuit Studio license.

I agree. Take them up on their offer and please do a review on it. I am currently playing around with the trial but am in need of more input as I am in the market of purchasing an EDA package.

[EEVblog]

I have taken them up on the offer, I was looking to try it anyway.

[EEVblog]

It's now official, the price on Element 14 is US$995 and US$150 maintenance 
http://www.newark.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15003&langId=-1&storeId=10194&categoryName=All%20Categories&selectedCategoryId=&gs=true&st=circuitstudio

[LabSpokane]

The $995 price for Circuit Studio is now live on Newark. Annual maintenance is $150.

http://www.newark.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=altium&catalogId=15003&categoryId=800000004017&langId=-1&storeId=10194

It only now just got to Aussieland?

[LabSpokane]

I've been slogging my way through part creation.  And as rotten as Eagle's part creation process is, CS might be worse in some respects.  Very non-intuitive.  And there is virtually zero documentation on part creation in CS.  One must resort to Designer tutorials/video, which are an OK surrogate, but Altium is making up the difference in purchase price with non-support.

One of the things that you hope to get are libraries, but Altium's libraries are like cable TV:  600 channels but nothing on.  Forget trying to clone anything, that apparently has been disabled, or is REALLY hard to find in CS.  The Vault is OK at best.  It's painfully slow, and once again, you're pretty likely to be creating what you need.  No cloning allowed.

The "price" of Circuit Studio is that you seem to be at ground-zero with creating libraries for many common parts - or trust someone else's library - shudder...

[Icchan]

Why?

I want only one product!

I want Altium Designer that's modular. Meaning that one can get the feature set of Circuit studio for free, then If I need high speed design, I purchase the module (and the yearly support fee for that) separately. Then if I need Gerber viewer, I purchase that separately. I don't want this product to be a dead end where the only way forwards is to buy everything which includes a ton of stuff that I have no use for, but a lot of stuff  (rigid flex, rooms, full push & shove)  that I would be interested to buy that arent on CS... but not with over 6000$ price difference!

C'mon Altium! Get your head out of your asses and win the market! You have a product that everyone wants but nobody's buying! 

[LabSpokane]

Why?

I want only one product!

I want Altium Designer that's modular. Meaning that one can get the feature set of Circuit studio for free, then If I need high speed design, I purchase the module (and the yearly support fee for that) separately. Then if I need Gerber viewer, I purchase that separately. I don't want this product to be a dead end where the only way forwards is to buy everything which includes a ton of stuff that I have no use for, but a lot of stuff  (rigid flex, rooms, full push & shove)  that I would be interested to buy that arent on CS... but not with over 6000$ price difference!

C'mon Altium! Get your head out of your asses and win the market! You have a product that everyone wants but nobody's buying! 

CircuitStudio is effectively a subset of Altium.  Most of the included features are so close to AD, that the AD tutorials double for CS. 

The bad part is that the Vault seems to have been ported over in the most rotten fashion possible.  It's so bad, it's unbelievably bad.  When I get some time, I'm going to try and figure it out with Altium. 

[LabSpokane]

The Vault.  The damned Vault.  Where to start?

Want to find a 555 timer?  (Silly example, but just to show you how bad the Vault is.)

This is what you get.  All the columns for every possible criteria are listed.  Nothing is readable.  Now, you say, just get rid of the columns you lazy bastard.  Well...you can take 15 minutes to do that.  Then as soon as you search change screens or do a new search, THEY'RE BACK.  And there doesn't seem to be anything to do about it.  The vault is a feature they sell, but Altium seemingly has intentionally rendered it useless. 

Every time you do a new search, the view that you had previously established is reset to hide everything you were interested in.  I don't know what you're supposed to do to find a part in the silly thing. 



And this is just the start of how shitty the vault implementation is.  Click on an list item in a vain attempt to see what it is, and as often as not, it gives you "not found" or the equivalent. 

Oh wait, I did a 555 search in Mouser and found a part in ten seconds.  Well....5 seconds, but who's counting? Back to the Vault... Now, I'll find a nice list, right?  Wrong.  This is what you get:



Damn.  Can't read a thing.  Maybe I'll click on one and look at the nice panel I configured to view parts last time.  Nope:



This is what I had configured the last time I view a part, but CircuitStudio forces me back to the same, essentially blank part information screen EVERY TIME I VIEW A COMPONENT.  Just ridiculous.



So...finally...you persevere and find a part then configure the part summary viewer and it's freaking awesome.  That solid model is zoomable and spinnable.  If only, your preferences would be retained between searches.  <loud sigh>



Want to search for a 3055L MOSFET?  Forget it.  The 3055L is there, but the search won't find anything but the entire manufacturer part number.  Use a wildcard you say?  Forget that too.  * and ? are useless and just throw errors.  It's just maddening.  There's so much to like at the price point, but then there's this gigantic finger in your face with the libraries you were supposed to have access to.  [Apparently "access" and "usability" come at two different price points]. 

Oh, and no Fairchild 3055L MOSFETs are included, but ON Semi's are.  Go figure.  So the only way the vault works is if you pull up a list of manufacturers and Mouser, Digikey, etc. and enter the exact part number as they start:  NTD3055L, RFD3055L, etc.  It's just ridiculous.  This search function is left over from 1995. 

As near as I can tell, it's a damning indictment that there were *no* CircuitStudio sales at the $3000 price point because SOMEBODY would have had to have said something before now. 

============================

Placing pads is odd.  There are no defaults.  Every single time you place a pad, you have to set the dimensions.  Yeah, yeah, I know, make one, then copy-paste.  But why not allow users to create preset for really common stuff?   Why do I have to manually set the x-y dimensions of the pad every, single, time?  At least Eagle got this part right and allows one to set a rule for pad width versus hole diameter. 
============================

But wait!  There's more!

Mouser prices only display in Australian dollars, even though I have the preferences selected for US and USD.  Did it twice to be sure.  Australia is an awesome place, but I want 'Merican pricing, dammit.  Oh yeah, I need the Mouser site always open anyway so I can find part numbers to search...

 

[EEVblog]

C'mon Altium! Get your head out of your asses and win the market! You have a product that everyone wants but nobody's buying! 

On the contrary, they are doing just fine, look at their share price and revenue.
But yes, Altium have always specialised in shooting themselves in the foot. They used to sell the product modular like this.
And then they went completely crazy and made the PCB tool itself optional extra, I kid you not, it was part of their "turning the world of electronics design upside down" marketing campaign.

[EEVblog]

BTW, I now have my full CS license. Be afraid.

[PCB.Wiz]

Yes, when I found out AD13 has an SE version that does not do PCB layout, I was thinking WTF? Why I would like to spend $3k on a piece of $hit that does only what pencil and paper can do plus Quartus II can do?

Welcome to a world run by Marketdriods !!

C'mon Altium! Get your head out of your asses and win the market! You have a product that everyone wants but nobody's buying! 

Someone was buying, but I suspect the rapid changes in the market place, has driven the significant change in price.

[BobC]

In audio and video there is the "prosumer" category, for advanced enthusiasts who want to "step up" without breaking the bank.

In my case, as an embedded systems software wonk, I occasionally spend time in PCB tools to make otherwise good hardware designs a bit more friendly for software development (typically adding things like a reset button, a JTAG connector, a blinky LED, and/or re-arrange the layout or add Mictor connectors to improve logic analyzer access).  More often than not, it will be for a one-off development board I'll assemble myself.

I need my PCB tool to "Just Work"(TM), without making me struggle to relearn it when I haven't had to use it for a few months.  In this respect, I want a PCB tool with professional support and a great UI, that works well, and that doesn't break the bank.

For my limited use, $1K start + $150/year is indeed a very sweet spot.

But it *must* have great import capabilities, push/shove routing, flexible design rules, and easy access to accurate parts libraries.

[LabSpokane]

Curiously enough, I got a call from Newark today.  Told them that I thought the price point was excellent and if I could just get a couple matters squared away I'd buy immediately.  Altium support actually contacted me quite quickly via email.  We'll see how it goes.

[PCB.Wiz]

But it *must* have great import capabilities, push/shove routing, flexible design rules, and easy access to accurate parts libraries.

 I would add great ASCII export to that list too ... one-way database designs, are best avoided.

[zarcondeegrissom]

I kind of agree with BobC, however my needs are a tad different, and my 'simplistic' methods for what little I do as a hobbyist'. I just can't justify a thousand USD for a 'DaveCAD' (errr ZDG-CAD) to Gerber converter program,  .

I got into Eagle a few years ago, because a fab had a good guide for using it with there services. I don't have the time to be learning a new program interface, especially when I already know exactly where I need the copper on the PCB.

As for part libraries, I'm old school I guess. I measure the parts in my hand with a via ruler made from the FAB and make my own component things for them. (Aliens movie reference) "only way to be sure".

[PCB.Wiz]

But it *must* have great import capabilities, push/shove routing, flexible design rules, and easy access to accurate parts libraries.

I'm thinking the opposite. One of the merit of AD/CS/CM is it they are very cohesive tools. I do not know why anyone would like to use an external capturing tool.

Great import is not so much about connecting some external tool (tho that certainly should be possible, including script generated files) but more about being able to harvest libraries and designs from other sources.
DXF import is just one example.

Also, if it was made with comprehensive importers, it will make it easier to work with AD or other PCB tools, which will make it a direct competitor to their flagship AD.

Ah yes, certainly Altium will be quite actively crippling and nobbling CS, and may even change those fishhooks over time, if CS proves to be eating too much of AD's lunch.
Altium also have a proven track record of very volatile pricing.

[dohnalik]

If Eagle wont support openGL true GPU acceleration, then its dead for professional use...its literally unusable for big 2 layer or 4+ layer boards with polygons. Circuit studio has that done quite well.

[EEVblog]

Altium also have a proven track record of very volatile pricing.

Only -70% to +400% 

[bakermattj]

I fall in the market segment where this tool makes sense, and really want to get off of Eagle for a number of reasons.  AD is not quite in my price range.

Woah, no basic manufacturing DRC in CS?

Basic manufacturing rules Annular ring, acute angle, hole size, layer pairs, hole to
hole clearance, minimum solder mask sliver, silk to solder
mask, silk to silk, net antennae, silk to board region

Does this not make the tool nearly useless?  I guess if you do not care about functional boards.. Maybe they should call it CircuitArtist instead...  I do not want to hassle with a DRC flow that involves exporting and sending the files for 3rd party DFM, too much of a pain.

The AD import being limited to version 10 is a problem.  You get CS because AD does not make sense, so why require me to have access to a copy of AD?  That leaves no way to import reference designs from suppliers.

I am very interested in this CS at this price but these two issues seem like deal breakers.

[LabSpokane]

Woah, no basic manufacturing DRC in CS?

Basic manufacturing rules Annular ring, acute angle, hole size, layer pairs, hole to
hole clearance, minimum solder mask sliver, silk to solder
mask, silk to silk, net antennae, silk to board region

Is this not it?

[EEVblog]

Is this not it?

I was just quoting their brochure with the feature list comparison. I have not used CS yet.

[Monkeh]

Woah, no basic manufacturing DRC in CS?

Basic manufacturing rules Annular ring, acute angle, hole size, layer pairs, hole to
hole clearance, minimum solder mask sliver, silk to solder
mask, silk to silk, net antennae, silk to board region

Is this not it?

That's copper to copper clearances. Are there any options elsewhere for annular ring sizes, hole sizes, layer config, hole to hole (centre to centre) clearance, etc?

[LabSpokane]

Woah, no basic manufacturing DRC in CS?

Basic manufacturing rules Annular ring, acute angle, hole size, layer pairs, hole to
hole clearance, minimum solder mask sliver, silk to solder
mask, silk to silk, net antennae, silk to board region

Is this not it?

That's copper to copper clearances. Are there any options elsewhere for annular ring sizes, hole sizes, layer config, hole to hole (centre to centre) clearance, etc?

Will do screenshots of all options later today and let you decide the content.

[LabSpokane]

All the Rules and Constraints expanded:

[LabSpokane]

Layer Manager.  It looks nearly as full-featured as Designer.

[Monkeh]

Okay.

Where in there do you specify the minimum distance between drill hits for your PCB manufacturer? The minimal annular ring size, layer pairs for blind and buried vias, minimum diameter of solder mask?

[LabSpokane]

Push and shove routing works.  It's an option in the routing menu.

[LabSpokane]

Okay.

Where in there do you specify the minimum distance between drill hits for your PCB manufacturer? The minimal annular ring size, layer pairs for blind and buried vias, minimum diameter of solder mask?

Why don't you just get a free trial and see? 

[Monkeh]

Okay.

Where in there do you specify the minimum distance between drill hits for your PCB manufacturer? The minimal annular ring size, layer pairs for blind and buried vias, minimum diameter of solder mask?

Why don't you just get a free trial and see?

That's presumably a 'nowhere', then.

[LabSpokane]

Okay.

Where in there do you specify the minimum distance between drill hits for your PCB manufacturer? The minimal annular ring size, layer pairs for blind and buried vias, minimum diameter of solder mask?

Why don't you just get a free trial and see?

That's presumably a 'nowhere', then.

That was, "do your own work for a change and answer your own question."

[ludzinc]

That's quite disappointing - here's a screenshot for the design rules from Circuit Maker:



The free tool looks to be more powerful that the paid for tool.  WTF?!

I really, really like CM, except for the lag induced by cloud based libraries.  But imho it's the best free tool out there.

[Monkeh]

E: Ahh, let's leave the handbags for now.

I think the comparison of the two screenshots answers the question nicely. Altium really like shooting themselves in the foot.

[LabSpokane]

E: Ahh, let's leave the handbags for now.

I think the comparison of the two screenshots answers the question nicely. Altium really like shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm in touch with the manager at Element14 who works with Altium.  I will be sure to point this out.  It should be a very, very simple fix to get the rules updated since the engine behind all of this really is AD.

[Monkeh]

E: Ahh, let's leave the handbags for now.

I think the comparison of the two screenshots answers the question nicely. Altium really like shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm in touch with the manager at Element14 who works with Altium.  I will be sure to point this out.  It should be a very, very simple fix to get the rules updated since the engine behind all of this really is AD.

That would be good. Basic manufacturing DRC should be a standard feature in any tool.

[bson]

Ooh, did they retain panelization functionality???

I'd check myself, but I'm sitting in a hotel room with a MacBook Air...

[blackfin76]

I hope it is true. Once at a time AD was dropped to $3k, and now it is back to $6k (both without mandatory 1 year subscription).

I remember that day vividly!
Nick Martin called everyone into the canteen at the old Altium building at Frenches Forest as a said (close enough direct quote) "We are burning our bridges, we can't go back to high priced tools"
(They slashed prices by 75%)
Within 12 months the price was creeping back up to normal 
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1311978

It was at the time Altium stock price was very low. (somewhere in 2009). My employer at the time paid about €2500,- for a single license. Last time I informed it was about €7k. Altium stock price has increased a 100 fold since it lowest level, don't now why it's rising so fast. At €7k for AD I think they are missing a large part of the market.
CS at it's discount price seems nice but it lacks too much of the stuff AD has, small businesses need more advanced tools at a lower price. If Altium would bring down the price of AD back to €3k and €500,- for an annual subscription I would no hesitate a second in buying it.

[jmarkwolf]

Can you save back to AD10 from a AD14+ system ? (or save to the expected P-CAD format ?)
P-CAD (ACCEL_NETLIST looks a nice standard that can open in Eagle and kiCad).
Can CS export P-CAD ?
[/quote]

I currently use Altium ver16 at work and it can save PcbDocs in "native format", and version binary 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, and ascii. It saves SchDocs in "native format" and binary 4.0 and ascii.

So if you have access to Altium in order to resave your databases in the older formats, I think you're golden.

[electrolust]

I fall in the market segment where this tool makes sense, and really want to get off of Eagle for a number of reasons.  AD is not quite in my price range.

You want to go from Eagle all the way to AD in one step?  Why not take a hop to Proteus?

Actually came here to say thanks for this thread, esp. to LabSpokane.

I like Proteus a lot, big improvement in almost all ways from Eagle.  However the library management and to a degree component creation is a real pain point.  Not as bad as Eagle but still painful in different ways.  I was frustrated enough that I thought I'd give CS a try, even at $3k.  Then I learned about the price drop -- yes!!  Then I read this thread -- no!!  Looks like CS is crippled pretty badly.  Guess I'll continue to live with Proteus.

[DerekG]

Guess I'll continue to live with Proteus.

There is nothing bad about Proteus. For averagely complex boards it is (in many respects) quicker to get your design done than using Altium. This is because the learning curve is much faster & moving from the schematic to pcb is less problematic.

DipTrace is another good alternative, particularly now they have implemented a search function that searches all libraries with the press of a button.

I use all three of the above packages & like Altium the least.

[DerekG]

Altium stock price has increased a 100 fold since it lowest level .....

Yep, most of this increase has occurred since the board sacked the founding CEO Nick Martin. The best thing that has happened to Altium in the past 20 years.

Just ask Dave ............... he used to work with (for) Nick.

[blackfin76]

Altium stock price has increased a 100 fold since it lowest level .....

Yep, most of this increase has occurred since the board sacked the founding CEO Nick Martin. The best thing that has happened to Altium in the past 20 years.

Just ask Dave ............... he used to work with (for) Nick.

Did anything improve since then? It's been a couple of years since I used AD but I remember it was full of bugs and they kept adding features without improving stability.
Last time I spoke to a salesperson they asked about €7k for a single license.

[Ice-Tea]

Altium stock price has increased a 100 fold since it lowest level .....

Yep, most of this increase has occurred since the board sacked the founding CEO Nick Martin. The best thing that has happened to Altium in the past 20 years.

Just ask Dave ............... he used to work with (for) Nick.

Did anything improve since then? It's been a couple of years since I used AD but I remember it was full of bugs and they kept adding features without improving stability.
Last time I spoke to a salesperson they asked about €7k for a single license.

Plus the subscription fee.

My feeling is that it is less bugy than it used to be (ie less crashes, less work lost etc) and some added features evn add extra value (but not exactly all)..

[leonhart88]

I had licencing issues when we first bought it (it was on sale for $600!), and it took at least a month or so to figure out what the issue was.  Element14/Newark support was not helpful at all, but the guys at Altium were quick to resolve the issue.  I don't really understand why they have to partner with Element14/Newark, they're completely useless!

As for the software itself, for non power users, I found it was actually pretty good compared to my previous work in Altium Designer.  Sure, there are some things that are missing, but I was able to easily import my library files, rules, etc. and most of the functionality for simple boards was there.  I'm still able to import a DXF for a board shape, and export a .STEP 3D file to check fits into my parts, which is crucial when doing mechanical and electronics assemblies.

For $600 I'm actually pretty happy with it.  If you're a power user though I can understand that missing features would kill productivity compared to Altium Designer, but for me, the functionality is similar enough that I can recommend it.

[GlowingGhoul]

"ricktusl" is a troll who's sole purpose in creating an account seems to be to bash a piece of software he's never used with the same message posted over and over.

Reported with a ban to follow hopefully.

[taydin]

Guys, I tried finding any information about the upgrade price from circuit studio to full altium designer, but nothing seems to be showing up. Does anybody know what the upgrade price would be? I want to take advantage of the eagle trade in deal that's going on for circuit studio and I'm hoping that it will be (even if slightly) cheaper to upgrade to AD instead of buying it up front.