EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

General => Contests & Events => Topic started by: EEVblog on February 16, 2017, 09:17:11 am

Title: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: EEVblog on February 16, 2017, 09:17:11 am
So I have a couple to giveaway, and the usual argument has come up again. Should I just limit the forum giveaway to countries not covered the Keysight Scopemonth promo, or to everyone?
Remember that Keysight are giving away 5 scopes per day for a month.
Argue away...
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: timgiles on February 16, 2017, 09:20:55 am
From a country (Sweden) that is not covered, it seems to help rebalance the fairness. Ultimately it is just nice to have a chance, even if the chance is 1 in a lot or 1 in slightly fewer!

Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MrBungle on February 16, 2017, 09:30:32 am
+1 to what Tim said, my feelings exactly.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: imidis on February 16, 2017, 09:31:48 am
As much as I'd like to think I might win one, I think it's fair to go with countries not covered.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: djos on February 16, 2017, 09:42:25 am
Shipping to Melbourne is of course much cheaper Dave.  ;)
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: magnehh on February 16, 2017, 09:50:11 am
I'm just happy to have a chance really. But since there are two scopes in this competition, and a lot more in the other one, I vote Yes.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: voltlog on February 16, 2017, 09:53:14 am
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TNb on February 16, 2017, 10:03:44 am
I am not really sure if they limit anything, do they? When applying for scope month you can choose "Other country" and write wherever you are from. So I suppose they are fine with every country but some customs/shipping can be more difficult in those that are not on the list. I am not sure, but if they would want to strictly limit they would not have "Other country" option.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MrBungle on February 16, 2017, 10:09:59 am
I am not really sure if they limit anything, do they? When applying for scope month you can choose "Other country" and write wherever you are from. So I suppose they are fine with every country but some customs/shipping can be more difficult in those that are not on the list. I am not sure, but if they would want to strictly limit they would not have "Other country" option.

Unfortunately, from the Scope Month 2017 Megathread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/scope-month-2017-megathread/):

I managed to get an entry in even though my country is not listed (Belgium). It got it in under "Other(my country is not listed)". Is that entry then forwarded to the nearest virtual garbage bin? Or will this actually do something?

I'm not 100% sure what that is about, but if your country is not in the T&Cs you won't be winning a scope in the sweepstakes.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TNb on February 16, 2017, 10:24:42 am
By the way is this topic only about forum giveaway? Because on youtube 95% of people don't even write their country,so it is impossible to check until you contact a winner.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: EEVblog on February 16, 2017, 10:30:09 am
By the way is this topic only about forum giveaway? Because on youtube 95% of people don't even write their country,so it is impossible to check until you contact a winner.

Just the forum.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: BravoV on February 16, 2017, 10:32:00 am
Dave, you should rename the thread title.

When I saw the thread's title for the 1st time, my fingers muscle memory typed in .. "I'm in" ...  :-DD
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 16, 2017, 10:35:12 am
Higher chance of me winning, so yes!

Non-eligible countries only.

Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: vpetrog on February 16, 2017, 10:40:37 am
i' m also in favour of giving away the scopes in the countries not covered by keysight. However in case the shipping cost is too much, you can ask the winner for total/partial shipping contribution.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on February 16, 2017, 10:56:34 am
Sounds fair to me to include only those countries who are ineligible for the main Keysight giveaway.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TomS_ on February 16, 2017, 11:00:27 am
How about this (sorry, not sure if this was already posted, didnt read the entire thread before posting):

People from any country allowed to win can enter. But they can also act as a proxy for someone who is in a country not on the list.

People in countries on the list can post a second entry in the competition stating they are willing to be a proxy, and a prospective winner can PM that proxy. The proxy then updates their post with the name of the person they are proxying for.

The two just have to nut out their own terms for postage, customs charges etc, perhaps with some ground rules (like registered/trackable post, and proof of postage through receipts etc with address, so no sneaky "oh sure I sent it, must have got lost" but kept it for themselves).

This way no one loses out.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 16, 2017, 11:05:58 am
I voted for ineligible countries only due to the very high number of scopes and chances that are available to those in eligible ones, there's generally a madness in my method but not this time around.   ::) :P

Almost 3000 comments already in the Youtube video was a bit of a shock to the system, I'm hedging my bets so I left a comment just in case, after seeing the Keysight 1000X taking out a lottery ticket is also on the cards.   :-+ :)

   
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Andrey_irk on February 16, 2017, 11:16:57 am
Keysight has some problems with giving away their equipment in some countries as long as I remember they said.
And maybe they don't want to include Russia in their list, because the notorious russian post will lose everything :) But lets try...
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TNb on February 16, 2017, 11:39:46 am
How about this (sorry, not sure if this was already posted, didnt read the entire thread before posting):

People from any country allowed to win can enter. But they can also act as a proxy for someone who is in a country not on the list.

People in countries on the list can post a second entry in the competition stating they are willing to be a proxy, and a prospective winner can PM that proxy. The proxy then updates their post with the name of the person they are proxying for.

The two just have to nut out their own terms for postage, customs charges etc, perhaps with some ground rules (like registered/trackable post, and proof of postage through receipts etc with address, so no sneaky "oh sure I sent it, must have got lost" but kept it for themselves).

This way no one loses out.
I suppose you are talking about official Keysight scope month, that makes sense, but for Dave's forum giveaway its just about making more fair contest. It would be nice if Keysight would implements such idea, but I think it is too late now I suppose.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: modrobert on February 16, 2017, 11:46:00 am
i' m also in favour of giving away the scopes in the countries not covered by keysight. However in case the shipping cost is too much, you can ask the winner for total/partial shipping contribution.

Good idea!

The winners might want to decide shipping method anyway, especially in some countries with corrupt customs handling.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Kjelt on February 16, 2017, 11:53:07 am
You're audience and scope is the forum so IMO all the forum members should be able to participate.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: jpanhalt on February 16, 2017, 12:05:05 pm
Keysight's limitations are said to have something to do with import/export laws, shipping regulations, and/or laws regulating gambling or other games of chance (e.g., in effect the giveaway is a lottery).   That probably explains why residents of the states of New York, Florida, and Rhode Island are excluded, while residents of the rest of the USA are included. In response to whatever factors are involved in that decision, it has been suggested that EEVBlog limit its giveaways to those who can't participate in the Keysight giveaway.

1)  Unfortunately, no one has explained how such arbitrary discrimination by EEVBlog will rectify the legitimate discrimination of the Keysight giveaway, except for a rather obtuse concept of "fairness." Taking that concept a little further, if Dave wants to be really "fair," he must willing to ship technical equipment to members living in any of the excluded countries, including those under UN sanctions, those in war zones, and those in which there has been a complete breakdown of civil law, even if such shipment is in violation of laws of Australia or the recipient's residence (e.g., New York, USA)?

It seems odd that a perceived unfairness committed by one entity in response to obeying the law(s) can be rectified by another entity that is willing to break the laws. 

Despite Dave's best intentions, it is a pretty good bet that he will obey existing laws, and there will still be people who cannot participate for the very same reasons cited by Keysight for its exclusions. 

2)  Keysight is giving away oscilloscopes.   Is EEVBlog is anticipating also giving away comparable oscilloscopes?  How can it possibly be fair to exclude someone who is eligible to get a brand new, worthless piece of Keysight junk from getting a valuable piece of hardware from Dave (with or without the warranty sticker intact).  ;)

Finally, to reiterate what has already been said, two wrongs do not make a right.

John

Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Sbampato12 on February 16, 2017, 12:18:18 pm
I voted wrong.....  |O

I should selected NO, but choosed Don't care...

Even as someone from a country not covered by Keysight, I really don't think you should limit the entries. If it is possible, keep everyone on equals chances, at least around here (forum).
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: modrobert on February 16, 2017, 12:19:45 pm
It seems odd that a perceived unfairness committed by one entity in response to obeying the law(s) can be rectified by another entity that is willing to break the laws.

You are forgetting something, each country in the world is sovereign with their own laws. Whatever Dave decides to do only has to comply with laws in Australia, the laws in USA are irrelevant in this case.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TomS_ on February 16, 2017, 12:25:00 pm
I suppose you are talking about official Keysight scope month

I am talking about Daves giveaway.

Keysight have stated they have legal constraints with certain countries (or even states within a country), and no amount of shoe horning around the issue is going to make those go away - infact it could land them in trouble for doing so. A legal restriction is a legal restriction no matter how clever you think you can get. A sad, unfortunate aspect of life.

Dave, as seemingly some kind of official partner for this giveaway, may be constrained similarly. Or maybe not, I am no lawyer.

But an individual sending a package is certainly less likely to have such an issue, provided there are no restrictions on the material they are shipping and/or the destination.

I would certainly love to win a scope, Ive never had one, have been looking at buying one, and Im working on some projects at the moment where no doubt one could come in handy. But as much as I am concerned with my own interests, I'd be willing to help someone else with a chance to win one too (unless winning proceeds of this kind of competition by proxy is also prohibited....?).
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: testian on February 16, 2017, 12:37:41 pm
The Giveaway should be for all your forum members and i would not exclude anyone.

Here is a list which country is included in the keysight giveaway:
Country list from their website:
    Austria
    Canada
    Chile
    Denmark
    Finland
    France
    Germany
    Ireland
    Japan
    Korea
    New Zealand
    Poland
    South Africa
    Switzerland
    Taiwan
    United Kingdom
    United States
    Venezuela
    (other)

Terms & Conditions:
This promotion is limited to specific countries and is only open to entrants aged 18 years or older at the time of submission who are legal residents of, and physically located within Austria, Canada (excluding the Province of Quebec), Chile, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, Republic of Korea, New Zealand, Poland, South Africa, Switzerland, Taiwan, United Kingdom, United States (excluding Florida, New York, and Rhode Island), and Venezuela.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: NANDBlog on February 16, 2017, 12:49:42 pm
Keysight's limitations are said to have something to do with import/export laws, shipping regulations, and/or laws regulating gambling or other games of chance (e.g., in effect the giveaway is a lottery). 
Sorry this is just BS. They have an actual R&D center here. Sure they have huge trouble ship anyhting there. They develop everything by banging rocks together. And the lottery here is an underground thing, you need to go to dark alleys, and talk to strange people.
It's just the usual USA "I cannot be bothered to look up your law, so instead I dont do business with you, you are insignificant anyway" infuriating mentality.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: neil t on February 16, 2017, 12:52:14 pm
Regardless of the obvious benefits (I'm in Oz) its an eevblog giveaway ,so in my mind that really sets the guidelines. although I'm in Newcastle I could almost limp to Sydney from here if I roll down a few hills on the way.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 16, 2017, 12:56:35 pm
It's just the usual USA "I cannot be bothered to look up your law, so instead I dont do business with you, you are insignificant anyway" infuriating mentality.

I call bullshit on that.  They seem to have looked up enough laws in enough countries to put up a list of eligible countries.

Let ma ask you a question: Have you looked up your laws on this subject?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MrBungle on February 16, 2017, 01:00:57 pm
...
2)  Keysight is giving away oscilloscopes.   Is EEVBlog is anticipating also giving away comparable oscilloscopes?
...

Wow.
Just.
Wow.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: b_force on February 16, 2017, 01:13:52 pm
(excluding Florida, New York, and Rhode Island)
Why is New York excluded?  :-- :-//
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 16, 2017, 01:15:42 pm
(excluding Florida, New York, and Rhode Island)
Why is New York excluded?  :-- :-//

My bet - which isn't much of a gamble - is that it's going to be because of the state laws regarding promotions of this nature.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: RoGeorge on February 16, 2017, 01:21:41 pm
Here is my sense of fairness:

Later Edit:
I just saw Dave's new video, now, how do I take my vote back?  |O
Only the forbidden countries should have access to Dave's dumpster!
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Arielo on February 16, 2017, 01:24:43 pm
I live in a country where used scopes are either inexistent or priced almost at the same price as new equipment, and new equipment is more expensive than anywere else in the world, but it wouldn't be faire to people in "Keysight eligible countries" not to participate in this poll.

It would be nice, though, that if the winner already has an scope, to "donate" this scope to be polled again, so the prize would go to someone who actually needs a scope.

I've never won anything on a poll, and even though I would like the extra chances of winning, it wouldn't be fair to exlude others, even if they have more options or chances to win a scope. Just because you sign up for two polls doesn't mean you will actually win one.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: b_force on February 16, 2017, 01:27:17 pm
(excluding Florida, New York, and Rhode Island)
Why is New York excluded?  :-- :-//

My bet - which isn't much of a gamble - is that it's going to be because of the state laws regarding promotions of this nature.
That's a bummer, I have family over there.
a well, I maybe can contact some friends in new zealand...  ;D ^-^
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 16, 2017, 01:28:48 pm
a well, I maybe can contact some friends in new zealand...  ;D ^-^

There you go.   :-+
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: cat87 on February 16, 2017, 01:36:29 pm
Agilent's err... Keysight's policy of only allowing  a few countries to join their contest is a real drag.
If they really want to support  EE's, wherever they may be, they should allow every one to enlist in the draw. As most likely publicity is the engine driving this initiative, that's not  something that's going to change.

That's where the EEV Forum comes in (in my opinion). So, again, because any and every EE deserves their fair chance, I think  all the countries should enter the forum giveaway

Free test gear for everyone  :-+
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: NANDBlog on February 16, 2017, 01:48:45 pm
It's just the usual USA "I cannot be bothered to look up your law, so instead I dont do business with you, you are insignificant anyway" infuriating mentality.

I call bullshit on that.  They seem to have looked up enough laws in enough countries to put up a list of eligible countries.

Let ma ask you a question: Have you looked up your laws on this subject?
You know, what? Not really. I dont make draws.
But I did it now anyway. Here it is:

Quote
Prize Draws – Can a promotion be run where there is an
element of chance in the selection of the winner and where
a prize is awarded?
Lawful, provided:
(a) participants have an active involvement (i.e. physical or intellectual effort). If no active
participation is required, the contest is to be considered a prohibited lottery (Note: a company
can organise a lottery in collaboration with and through a not-for-profit organisation that has
obtained a licence from one of the competent public authorities but this is likely to substantially
increase the cost of the promotion).
AND
(b) a licence is obtained from the Belgian Gaming Commission (required both for the offline
and online offering of games of chance)
OR, if case (b) is not applicable:
(c) participants do not pay to enter
So same as doing the 1+1 math exam, like the Canadians.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: b_force on February 16, 2017, 01:49:03 pm
a well, I maybe can contact some friends in new zealand...  ;D ^-^

There you go.   :-+
Although, they're having a pretty big BBQ right now:  :o :-\ :-BROKE :scared:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/89464361/Christchurch-Port-Hills-fires-cause-looks-suspicious-PM-Bill-English-says (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/89464361/Christchurch-Port-Hills-fires-cause-looks-suspicious-PM-Bill-English-says)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: olewales on February 16, 2017, 01:53:33 pm
On the one hand the eevblog forum community is not (exactly) the same set of people who will take part in scopemoth giveaways but on the other I would not feel in any way bad if forum giveaway was region-restricted. AgilentKeysight will give 125 of them away to a somewhat limited list of countries. The overall probability of winning for people living there may even be bigger on a Keysight website than in a forum raffle.

If you feel that it is the right thing to do, go for it.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: ChrisGreece52 on February 16, 2017, 02:11:59 pm
So by writing this comment i am eligible for this giveaway?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: mikeys on February 16, 2017, 02:14:13 pm
I'm in a country covered by the normal giveaway, I reckon you should just cover the excluded ones. Makes it a little bit more fair. There's plenty to go around on the full competition, not very many here.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: testian on February 16, 2017, 02:40:53 pm
So by writing this comment i am eligible for this giveaway?
The eevblog giveaway will be in another thread, like the ones before, as spoon as Dave knows who will be eligible for the giveaway.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 16, 2017, 04:13:03 pm
Keysight's limitations are said to have something to do with import/export laws, shipping regulations, and/or laws regulating gambling or other games of chance (e.g., in effect the giveaway is a lottery). 
Sorry this is just BS. They have an actual R&D center here. Sure they have huge trouble ship anyhting there. They develop everything by banging rocks together. And the lottery here is an underground thing, you need to go to dark alleys, and talk to strange people.
It's just the usual USA "I cannot be bothered to look up your law, so instead I dont do business with you, you are insignificant anyway" infuriating mentality.

That's not it, we actually did some extra looking into Belgium specifically after a couple people commented on it during Cyberweek and there's nothing we were able to do. From a logical standpoint, the number of interested people is roughly proportional to the amount of business in a country is roughly proportional to the number of Scope Month entries. It doesn't hurt us to include more countries, the decision is based purely on legality.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: tzok on February 16, 2017, 04:48:22 pm
I said "no" in the poll, because I live in a country which is covered by the Scope Month promotion (Poland), yet I can't participate as I work for a public university :(
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Augustus on February 16, 2017, 04:56:25 pm
I voted "yes" because I think it's only fair to give forum members from countries, who are not eligible to the Keysight contest, a better chance of winning one of the scopes  :popcorn:
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: 2N3055 on February 16, 2017, 06:03:57 pm
That's not it, we actually did some extra looking into Belgium specifically after a couple people commented on it during Cyberweek and there's nothing we were able to do. From a logical standpoint, the number of interested people is roughly proportional to the amount of business in a country is roughly proportional to the number of Scope Month entries. It doesn't hurt us to include more countries, the decision is based purely on legality.

I can confirm for Croatia that Daniel is right.. Laws here are complicated for this kind of event..

But, Daniel, I have a suggestion. You might check with your legal department if this is possible.

Dont make a contest that draws scopes... You don't give me a scope as a gift. You can give me a voucher that gives me 99% discount if I go and buy scope from Keysight.
So I can buy it for , let's say 10 USD... That legally makes it a purchase, and all is solved.... You can make voucher nontransferable, so no funky business with that.

How about that?
Would that be possible?

Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: JPortici on February 16, 2017, 06:35:17 pm
From a country (Sweden) that is not covered, it seems to help rebalance the fairness. Ultimately it is just nice to have a chance, even if the chance is 1 in a lot or 1 in slightly fewer!

+1 for this
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: bitseeker on February 16, 2017, 06:59:00 pm
I'm OK with it either way. If I can qualify, great. If not, no problem. 8)

After all, the giveaway is not the reason I invest time on the EEVblog forum.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TNb on February 16, 2017, 07:26:55 pm
I said "no" in the poll, because I live in a country which is covered by the Scope Month promotion (Poland), yet I can't participate as I work for a public university :(
How does it restricts you from participating? Did I miss something?
EDIT: Missed it in FAQ. Damn, I stated my uni in company field, though I am just a student, not employee, hope they don't mind :D
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 16, 2017, 07:36:33 pm
So I have a couple to giveaway, and the usual argument has come up again. Should I just limit the forum giveaway to countries not covered the Keysight Scopemonth promo, or to everyone?
Remember that Keysight are giving away 5 scopes per day for a month.
Argue away...

I gotta wonder why, or what's the motivation? Would this (your scope giveaway) be an argument if the Chinese mfgs were giving away scopes to the world, or only to  non "privileged" countries?

I'd rather we  look at the real issue here. It's white people who are privileged, no matter where they live. So exclude them, not poor unfortunate minorities that happen to live in a "privileged" region, but are still unjustly discriminated against.

Why not exclude people that have careers or nice jobs? Why not only include students?

Rather than stereotype an entire group/class/or region of people and continue to proliferate and promote the hate?

I get it. It's not fair that these other companies are excluding certain regions. Some social justice warrior needs to step in and make it right.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: UlToPri on February 16, 2017, 07:59:06 pm
Quote from: tzok on Today at 07:48:22 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=491978501178b022661a1540e54aa39c&?topic=83278.msg1138210#msg1138210)
I said "no" in the poll, because I live in a country which is covered by the Scope Month promotion (Poland), yet I can't participate as I work for a public university :(

This is exactly the problem I see, too. What's with the people in a land which is covered but are not allowed because of one of the other terms in Keysights Terms & Conditions?

Tom
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 16, 2017, 09:01:57 pm
Also, what about countries that have their own separate contests to win:

[quote = Keysight]Australia will have their own independent contest (not sweepstakes) beginning 1-March. Tune in then for details![\quote]
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2017, 09:16:18 pm
Your forum Dave so do as you think best but could I offer an idea.

All Members, 6+ months and 20+ posts that don't have a DSO. Too hard ?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: blueskull on February 16, 2017, 09:21:00 pm
No please. There are people like me and my fellow workers who work in a country that is eligible, but also in an academic environment, which disqualifies us.
So yes, even in the US, there are people like me not being allowed to enter the game.

*: I rather like the cute small size and rich features. It will be a nice second scope since I sold my MSOX3104A, especially for now, when my other scope is under repair.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TNb on February 16, 2017, 09:39:56 pm
I'd rather we  look at the real issue here. It's white people who are privileged, no matter where they live.
Are you really saying it here or do I just don't get the sarcasm? Not sure if I misunderstood your post or it is a first appearance of SJW here. Hope its the former :)
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TheDane on February 16, 2017, 11:05:59 pm
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.

No.  (And Yes, on the everyone participating part)
Rules are rules, and apparently they are made for a reason. What those reasons might be, well... Fight!
__________________________________________________________________________________

On another channel:

- Are you a WINNER!
- Are you a DESIGNER?

are you in it for the competition - are are you in it for the scope, and the awesomeness a new scope gives you.
Me, I don't care - Denmark is on the list,  :-//
- 5 scopes a day, and/or a few (from down under) there, it's winning and getting one that counts. Good imaginary values, hard to do something real about besides spending time hoping.
What I wonder about is when my karma counter overflows, and I get upgraded from 1.4 inch floppy and noisy fan to USB and  :wtf:
 ^-^ Best of luck
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: BU508A on February 16, 2017, 11:24:37 pm
Hello Daniel,

[...] the decision is based purely on legality.

just out of curiousity: can you give us an example, which laws in Belgium prohibits Keysight from including Belgíum into the scope month?

I'm just wondering, since all this law stuff is a mysterium to me.

Thanks and regards,

Andreas
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: BU508A on February 16, 2017, 11:29:28 pm
@ Dave:

I know, it is a bit off-topic, but I'd like to ask you a favour:
When you are doing the full review of this scope, is it possible, that you'll do a short comparision with the Rohde & Schwarz HMO 1232 scope you have?
Would be great and really appreciated.

Thanks and regards,

Andreas
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 17, 2017, 12:05:29 am
That's not it, we actually did some extra looking into Belgium specifically after a couple people commented on it during Cyberweek and there's nothing we were able to do. From a logical standpoint, the number of interested people is roughly proportional to the amount of business in a country is roughly proportional to the number of Scope Month entries. It doesn't hurt us to include more countries, the decision is based purely on legality.

I can confirm for Croatia that Daniel is right.. Laws here are complicated for this kind of event..

But, Daniel, I have a suggestion. You might check with your legal department if this is possible.

Dont make a contest that draws scopes... You don't give me a scope as a gift. You can give me a voucher that gives me 99% discount if I go and buy scope from Keysight.
So I can buy it for , let's say 10 USD... That legally makes it a purchase, and all is solved.... You can make voucher nontransferable, so no funky business with that.

How about that?
Would that be possible?


Hi Sinisa, I asked the same question when we were planning. Basically the voucher becomes a prize and is legally worth that 99% $ value, so it only buys you $10 less in prize value and all of the same legal complications are in play.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: mtdoc on February 17, 2017, 12:06:20 am
It would be nice to know the relative odds.  How many people enter the Keysight drawing?   I  suspect many more than the EEVblog forum drawing.

If so you would be penalizing the forum members who are in Keysight eligible countries.  Is that fair?

Also, since you found these in the dumpster, winners will not be liable for taxes - unlike the Keysight direct scopes. 

I don't expect I'd win one regardless but for the reasons above I think all Forum members should be eligible.

Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 17, 2017, 12:14:21 am
Hello Daniel,

[...] the decision is based purely on legality.

just out of curiousity: can you give us an example, which laws in Belgium prohibits Keysight from including Belgíum into the scope month?


Hi Andreas,

Thanks for asking, I wish there was a simple answer.

I don't know off the top of my head. A number of countries (and/or USA states) require that a cash bond be posted to the country/state worth the total value of the prize. That's out of the question for us, imagine trying to do that for a dozen countries. Some countries have limits on who can run sweepstakes (local only, individual only, gov't only, etc.). Some countries have maximum prize values per individual winner, some have maximum values for total collective prize values. Is it considered gambling, if so do you need a license and do you have to pay a cut of the prize to the government? Is it an online contest or offline contest? How is the drawing being done, is there a gov't auditor, etc. The list of possible options is quite long.

It's also all "mysterium" to me, but I do trust that our legal team did include as many countries as possible.

It would be nice to know the relative odds.  How many people enter the Keysight drawing?   I  suspect many more than the EEVblog forum drawing.

We don't give away numbers and odds, but we definitely get a lot of entrants.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 17, 2017, 12:15:54 am
(excluding Florida, New York, and Rhode Island)
Why is New York excluded?  :-- :-//

See my answer about Belgium :). But, you can always contact your local government representative (who make the laws :) ). Believe me, if we could include all of everyone we absolutely would.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: @rt on February 17, 2017, 01:54:23 am
If there are 5 units, maybe a couple could be limited that way,
Just like one has been limited to YouTube commenters.
Maybe even one could be limited to Brisbane.
I need it for all my stupid Arduino & Pi stuff.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on February 17, 2017, 03:11:45 am
In regards to Australia, what are the laws that excludes us from the official Keysight comp?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: djos on February 17, 2017, 03:39:08 am
In regards to Australia, what are the laws that excludes us from the official Keysight comp?

I was wondering that too, prizes are tax exempt here.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 17, 2017, 04:44:35 am
Off topic and language warning.   ::)

After thorough testing of the Youtube random comment selector program that Dave might use I've found that it seems to work perfectly well, seriously I didn't cheat or edit the first picture below but I do have a bloody sore index finger, it did throw up a couple of weird comments though with no name on one and the other we won't even talk about, nor the Siglent banners for that matter.   :palm:

Youtube Random Comment Picker.
http://www.sandracires.com/en/client/youtube/random.htm (http://www.sandracires.com/en/client/youtube/random.htm)

Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 17, 2017, 04:56:38 am
Samgab did win the same draw twice within in twenty minutes so it was probably rigged or something.   ::) :P

Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 17, 2017, 05:58:54 am
In regards to Australia, what are the laws that excludes us from the official Keysight comp?

I was wondering that too, prizes are tax exempt here.

That is something for entrants - the promoters will have other hoops to jump through.

Another thing is that things fall under state control - so it won't be one law for the country you would have to comply with - but one for each state.  This could end up being lot of hard work just sorting it out - and then you would have multiple compliance conditions.

But I'm not a lawyer, so the details are something upon which I cannot comment.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 17, 2017, 06:06:04 am
It's just the usual USA "I cannot be bothered to look up your law, so instead I dont do business with you, you are insignificant anyway" infuriating mentality.

I call bullshit on that.  They seem to have looked up enough laws in enough countries to put up a list of eligible countries.

Let ma ask you a question: Have you looked up your laws on this subject?
You know, what? Not really. I dont make draws.
But I did it now anyway. Here it is:

Quote
Prize Draws – Can a promotion be run where there is an
element of chance in the selection of the winner and where
a prize is awarded?
Lawful, provided:
(a) participants have an active involvement (i.e. physical or intellectual effort). If no active
participation is required, the contest is to be considered a prohibited lottery (Note: a company
can organise a lottery in collaboration with and through a not-for-profit organisation that has
obtained a licence from one of the competent public authorities but this is likely to substantially
increase the cost of the promotion).
AND
(b) a licence is obtained from the Belgian Gaming Commission (required both for the offline
and online offering of games of chance)
OR, if case (b) is not applicable:
(c) participants do not pay to enter
So same as doing the 1+1 math exam, like the Canadians.

That only talks to the basics as to whether such a promotion can be run - and what an entrant might expect.

It does NOT address the specific compliance requirements of the promoter.  These may be simple - or they might be a nightmare.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: dwpatter53 on February 17, 2017, 09:19:25 am
Where are the majority of your forum members from?

Will you be excluding then if you go for people excluded from scope giveaway?

Dave
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 09:25:48 am
If there are 5 units, maybe a couple could be limited that way,
Just like one has been limited to YouTube commenters.

Currently that one is 1 in 7053 chance  :o
Odds are much better as a Patreon supporter.
I'm also feeling like it would be nice to give one away to a young beginner based solely on my discretion.
That would leave two for the forum, which based on previous giveaways is less than 1 in 1000.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: @rt on February 17, 2017, 09:55:56 am
It is likely I’ll upgrade to a used monochrome Tectonics, and my colour 100MHz scope already has a young fellas name on it.
It’s an upgrade because it has one bung channel no matter if you swap the separate ADC boards.
A 14 year old from a radio club I no longer attend, had the biggest impact on me than anything else about the club.
You’d be hard pressed finding a 14yo who has wound a coil for any reason in these times I think.

Quote from: EEVblog
I'm also feeling like it would be nice to give one away to a young beginner based solely on my discretion.
That would leave two for the forum, which based on previous giveaways is less than 1 in 1000.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Azhar on February 17, 2017, 02:14:47 pm
Even if the poll were for only 5 people and I am one of them, I don't think I'm gonna win!! \$\Omega\$
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 17, 2017, 04:31:31 pm
I'd rather we  look at the real issue here. It's white people who are privileged, no matter where they live.
Are you really saying it here or do I just don't get the sarcasm? Not sure if I misunderstood your post or it is a first appearance of SJW here. Hope its the former :)

That would depend on the answers to my questions, omitted in your quote. It was just to illustrate a point of failed idealism, as this is sort of along the lines of affirmative action, which I guess Dave believes in by his suggesting this action, and others that would agree with it (if we dismiss the conflict of interest elephant). I kind of do not understand how EEVblog can give away a scope, but Keysight can't, but that may be just as irrelevant.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: bitseeker on February 17, 2017, 06:28:56 pm
I kind of do not understand how EEVblog can give away a scope, but Keysight can't, but that may be just as irrelevant.

Dave (an individual) giving a gift vs. Keysight (a corporation) conducting a promotion, sweepstakes, contest, or whatever a particular government classifies it as.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MrBungle on February 17, 2017, 07:12:13 pm
Dave (an individual) giving a gift...
Don't forget, they were thrown away in the dumpster  ;)
So now technically have no value  ;) ;)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: tautech on February 17, 2017, 07:31:52 pm
I'd rather we  look at the real issue here. It's white people who are privileged, no matter where they live.
Are you really saying it here or do I just don't get the sarcasm? Not sure if I misunderstood your post or it is a first appearance of SJW here. Hope its the former :)

That would depend on the answers to my questions, omitted in your quote. It was just to illustrate a point of failed idealism, as this is sort of along the lines of affirmative action, which I guess Dave believes in by his suggesting this action, and others that would agree with it (if we dismiss the conflict of interest elephant). I kind of do not understand how EEVblog can give away a scope, but Keysight can't, but that may be just as irrelevant.
Because it came from Daves dumpster.  ;)  ;) Second hand too, of course.  ;)  ;)  ;)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 17, 2017, 08:37:47 pm
Dave (an individual) giving a gift vs. Keysight (a corporation) conducting a promotion, sweepstakes, contest, or whatever a particular government classifies it as.

I'm considering Dave and the contest is more than just about an individual... Dave is the EEVblog, the website, the YT channel, and the many other things he does. All that generates revenue and profit. He should be acting at least as some sort of company. Self employed, OK. I'm thinking he pays taxes on his profits. So company to company... size matters?

But I do not live in the AU and know nothing about it's laws or how the rest of the world's laws affect these things.

I was not aware of where the scopes came from or the contest at all beyond reading this topic.

But now I have the idea that Keysight should just ship their contest scopes to Dave's dumpster and let him run their contest. Everyone wins!
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: palindrom71 on February 17, 2017, 09:01:19 pm
Dave, you decide.
Knowing my luck in such a contests, my chances are slim AF ;)
It's very nice that Keysight is giving those away, but I still remember last contest, when I sacrificed my time to prepare video clip and had zero chances of winning, because it wasn't about the clip in the end :palm: I got discouraged enough not to bother this year ;)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 17, 2017, 10:22:01 pm
Dave, you decide.
Knowing my luck in such a contests, my chances are slim AF ;)
It's very nice that Keysight is giving those away, but I still remember last contest, when I sacrificed my time to prepare video clip and had zero chances of winning, because it wasn't about the clip in the end :palm: I got discouraged enough not to bother this year ;)

I'm sorry to hear that! We've changed the contest this year to be a panel decision instead of a crowd vote (more details 1-Mar). Because we all know how that went.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:49:19 pm
I'm sorry to hear that! We've changed the contest this year to be a panel decision instead of a crowd vote (more details 1-Mar). Because we all know how that went.

And guess who's on the panel  ;D
I will accept an original Alan Bean painting as a *cough*
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 18, 2017, 12:04:26 am
The poll is a good guide and very close at this point but I wondered if it could perhaps be interpreted the wrong way by some due to the number of people voting from particular regions, that is if there are way more people from eligible countries able to vote then the balance might be somewhat out of whack.   :) :P
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: rch on February 18, 2017, 12:08:17 am
Also, what about countries that have their own separate contests to win:

[quote = Keysight]Australia will have their own independent contest (not sweepstakes) beginning 1-March. Tune in then for details![\quote]

If this is true it complicates things.  It might mean that if eligible countries for a Keysight giveaway were excluded Dave would logically have to exclude Australia.  Which would be a shame.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: djos on February 18, 2017, 12:11:42 am
I'm also feeling like it would be nice to give one away to a young beginner based solely on my discretion.
That would leave two for the forum, which based on previous giveaways is less than 1 in 1000.

That's actually a really great idea, despite me being personally ineligible (in my 40's and only a hobbyist), I think supporting a young engineer would be great. perhaps run it as a separate mini comp with some sort of creative element. E.g. Design a clever open source device with a bom of less than $50 AUD?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on February 18, 2017, 02:50:33 am
I'm also feeling like it would be nice to give one away to a young beginner based solely on my discretion.
That would leave two for the forum, which based on previous giveaways is less than 1 in 1000.

That's actually a really great idea, despite me being personally ineligible (in my 40's and only a hobbyist), I think supporting a young engineer...
Like djos, I also think this is a good idea (I too would be ineligible as I'm at the 'wrong end' of my life cycle - much as I would love a digital scope  :-/O). It would really give a boost to a budding EE :-+
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: palindrom71 on February 18, 2017, 07:31:27 am
I'm sorry to hear that! We've changed the contest this year to be a panel decision instead of a crowd vote (more details 1-Mar). Because we all know how that went.

:clap:
I believe this is the best way forward. :)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: nimda-eev on February 18, 2017, 12:50:04 pm
A fair change for everybody!  :)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Deridex on February 18, 2017, 01:23:33 pm
I think it would be fair to those, who are not covered by Keysight.
And my country is covered by Keysight  :D
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Rutger on February 19, 2017, 04:49:05 am
I think whatever Dave decides will be fair. I like the idea of giving one away to a young hobbyist, that would be awesome.  :-+
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: nowlan on February 19, 2017, 07:27:32 am
So how do I enter this competitoon? Or do we need to wait for poll to close?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 19, 2017, 12:45:10 pm
Not announced yet.

Keep checking the "Contests & Events" sub board.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on February 20, 2017, 04:42:27 am
Not announced yet.

Tearing my hair out in anticipation (and I don't have much to spare!)  :scared: :-DD
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: RissViss on February 20, 2017, 05:01:05 am
I am new to the forum, but from my point of view everyone on the forum enters no matter where they live and who ever wins wins, no one is left out.
How you get past the cost for a person not in the contest area getting the meter is the hard part.
Tax and duty is a pain.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: rob77 on February 20, 2017, 06:45:13 am
i voted don't care because i don't want to win , but my next option would be no - so everyone should be able to participate.

btw... i don't want to win anything worth more than 350euro... because otherwise i could simply buy it... if you win anything more in value than 350euro you pay the following in Slovakia (member of the EU btw...)
1. 19% tax "tax from winning"
2. 14% health insurance (don't ask me why - but it's like that and it's incredibly stupid)
3. 19% tax "standard income taxation" (because the win adds up to your yearly income)
4. 25% "social insurance" (because the win adds up to your yearly income)

that adds up to something like ~ 77% , so in other words... if you don't want to break the law and "hide" your winning from the tax bureau , then you rather don't want to win.

and of course if it's from outside of EU, then add 20% VAT and approx 3% import customs duties... and it's 100% !  so no, i don't want to win a scope, i would rather buy it when i will need a new scope ;)

Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MrBungle on February 20, 2017, 07:47:41 am
but my next option would be no - so everyone should be able to participate.

Everyone CAN participate.

If Dave does choose to restrict eligibility, then they must be eligible to enter for the 125 scopes Keysight is giving away (which they are very likely going to do anyway)
Everyone is covered.

Of Dave's five scopes:
one is up for grabs on Youtube - with no restriction
one is up for grabs to a supporter - with no country restriction
one is likely to be age restricted so possibly going to a young beginner/student, no other restriction that I am aware of.

And now for the subject of this poll:
one (maybe two?) is for the forum giveaway, so *might* be restricted to only those countries/states that are not eligible to enter for the 125 scopes available in the Keysight giveaway....
Simplez.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: imidis on February 20, 2017, 08:29:30 am
Wow that is a tight poll now! I'd say go with your gut Dave! :)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 20, 2017, 09:25:02 am
Wow that is a tight poll now! I'd say go with your gut Dave! :)

Don't forget to adjust for population size!
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 20, 2017, 12:39:47 pm
Dave will take all this on board - and will decide how to run things.  He has done it before and has taken steps to find fairness, so I have every confidence he will do a decent job of it.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: SnotKoglen on February 20, 2017, 04:00:46 pm
How about one scope for the excluded users and one for the included users and the third follows the poll. (Which by the way is ridiculously close. 3 vote gap.)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Faith on February 21, 2017, 04:34:18 am
i voted don't care because i don't want to win , but my next option would be no - so everyone should be able to participate.

btw... i don't want to win anything worth more than 350euro... because otherwise i could simply buy it... if you win anything more in value than 350euro you pay the following in Slovakia (member of the EU btw...)
1. 19% tax "tax from winning"
2. 14% health insurance (don't ask me why - but it's like that and it's incredibly stupid)
3. 19% tax "standard income taxation" (because the win adds up to your yearly income)
4. 25% "social insurance" (because the win adds up to your yearly income)

that adds up to something like ~ 77% , so in other words... if you don't want to break the law and "hide" your winning from the tax bureau , then you rather don't want to win.

and of course if it's from outside of EU, then add 20% VAT and approx 3% import customs duties... and it's 100% !  so no, i don't want to win a scope, i would rather buy it when i will need a new scope ;)

:palm:
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2017, 05:17:27 pm
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.

Why would it be 'wrong'?
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 22, 2017, 03:12:00 pm
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.

Why would it be 'wrong'?

You must first accept the premise that the Keysight scope giveaway is wrong because some regions are excluded. Then that wrong would be righted by holding another contest and excluding the regions that were not initially excluded.

It's like this. Nancy brings candy to school and she gives it only to her friends. Well, a teacher sees this and notices all the crying kids not getting candy. That must be a wrong so the teacher decides to buy candy and give it only to those kids who are not Nancy's friend, which would normally be a wrong too. But this way, all the kids have candy! See how right it is?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: nctnico on February 22, 2017, 10:49:45 pm
I'm also feeling like it would be nice to give one away to a young beginner based solely on my discretion.
IMHO that would be a very good thing to do! I was reading this thread to see if someone already had -sort of- suggested this option. Especially for someone who normally can't afford this kind of equipment it can easely be a life/career changer.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 23, 2017, 12:43:11 am
I'm also feeling like it would be nice to give one away to a young beginner based solely on my discretion.
IMHO that would be a very good thing to do! I was reading this thread to see if someone already had -sort of- suggested this option. Especially for someone who normally can't afford this kind of equipment it can easely be a life/career changer.

Keith Fenner and the machining society put on a What's in Your Box contest and have given a fully stocked machinist box to a few young apprentices. I think one of them actually works at the Rolls Royce plant as an apprentice. MrCrispin - he has youtube.... Something like that...

Here's a site, in case you searched: http://turnwrightmachineworks.com/whats-in-your-box-the-giveaway-project/ (http://turnwrightmachineworks.com/whats-in-your-box-the-giveaway-project/)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: palindrom71 on February 23, 2017, 06:20:00 pm
C'mon, who would like to get something found in trash bin anyway? ^-^

I would.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: mtdoc on February 23, 2017, 06:22:10 pm
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.

Why would it be 'wrong'?

You must first accept the premise that the Keysight scope giveaway is wrong because some regions are excluded. Then that wrong would be righted by holding another contest and excluding the regions that were not initially excluded.

It's like this. Nancy brings candy to school and she gives it only to her friends. Well, a teacher sees this and notices all the crying kids not getting candy. That must be a wrong so the teacher decides to buy candy and give it only to those kids who are not Nancy's friend, which would normally be a wrong too. But this way, all the kids have candy! See how right it is?

But the assumption there is that this would equalize the odds for all.  That is not the case. Surely there are many, many more entrants to the Keysight direct giveaway.

Maybe reserve just one scope for Keysight excluded countries only?
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 23, 2017, 07:49:05 pm
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.

Why would it be 'wrong'?

You must first accept the premise that the Keysight scope giveaway is wrong because some regions are excluded. Then that wrong would be righted by holding another contest and excluding the regions that were not initially excluded.

It's like this. Nancy brings candy to school and she gives it only to her friends. Well, a teacher sees this and notices all the crying kids not getting candy. That must be a wrong so the teacher decides to buy candy and give it only to those kids who are not Nancy's friend, which would normally be a wrong too. But this way, all the kids have candy! See how right it is?

But the assumption there is that this would equalize the odds for all.  That is not the case. Surely there are many, many more entrants to the Keysight direct giveaway.

Maybe reserve just one scope for Keysight excluded countries only?

Now you are suggesting a very difficult solution to determine. I'm sure the Keysight giveaway will have many more entrants, especially if restricted. Keysight, however, is giving away 5 scopes per day for the whole month. Dave is giving away how many scopes? You'd have to calculate actual odds of winning, which would be difficult as it is a moving target, but not impossible if there were some cooperation... And then what can you do to even the odds? Only select the right mix of regions or limit the actual number of entrants. What if the odds were actually up-side-down?
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Lafy on February 24, 2017, 07:15:13 am
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.

Why would it be 'wrong'?

You must first accept the premise that the Keysight scope giveaway is wrong because some regions are excluded. Then that wrong would be righted by holding another contest and excluding the regions that were not initially excluded.

It's like this. Nancy brings candy to school and she gives it only to her friends. Well, a teacher sees this and notices all the crying kids not getting candy. That must be a wrong so the teacher decides to buy candy and give it only to those kids who are not Nancy's friend, which would normally be a wrong too. But this way, all the kids have candy! See how right it is?

But the assumption there is that this would equalize the odds for all.  That is not the case. Surely there are many, many more entrants to the Keysight direct giveaway.

Maybe reserve just one scope for Keysight excluded countries only?

Now you are suggesting a very difficult solution to determine. I'm sure the Keysight giveaway will have many more entrants, especially if restricted. Keysight, however, is giving away 5 scopes per day for the whole month. Dave is giving away how many scopes? You'd have to calculate actual odds of winning, which would be difficult as it is a moving target, but not impossible if there were some cooperation... And then what can you do to even the odds? Only select the right mix of regions or limit the actual number of entrants. What if the odds were actually up-side-down?
When you lose a contest are you comforted by the odds you had of winning? I think the odds are somewhat irrelevant. It seems to me the way to make things fair is to wait until the Keysight giveaway is over and exclude the 125 winners.  If N people enter the Keysight giveaway they each have a 125/N chance of winning (more or less, depending on how many times each person enters) and the people from ineligible countries have 0 chance, but once the giveaway is over N-125 people are in the same boat with 0 chance of winning.
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 24, 2017, 06:36:17 pm
You cannot right a wrong by committing another wrong. Everyone should be able to participate IMHO.

Why would it be 'wrong'?

You must first accept the premise that the Keysight scope giveaway is wrong because some regions are excluded. Then that wrong would be righted by holding another contest and excluding the regions that were not initially excluded.

It's like this. Nancy brings candy to school and she gives it only to her friends. Well, a teacher sees this and notices all the crying kids not getting candy. That must be a wrong so the teacher decides to buy candy and give it only to those kids who are not Nancy's friend, which would normally be a wrong too. But this way, all the kids have candy! See how right it is?

But the assumption there is that this would equalize the odds for all.  That is not the case. Surely there are many, many more entrants to the Keysight direct giveaway.

Maybe reserve just one scope for Keysight excluded countries only?

Now you are suggesting a very difficult solution to determine. I'm sure the Keysight giveaway will have many more entrants, especially if restricted. Keysight, however, is giving away 5 scopes per day for the whole month. Dave is giving away how many scopes? You'd have to calculate actual odds of winning, which would be difficult as it is a moving target, but not impossible if there were some cooperation... And then what can you do to even the odds? Only select the right mix of regions or limit the actual number of entrants. What if the odds were actually up-side-down?
When you lose a contest are you comforted by the odds you had of winning? I think the odds are somewhat irrelevant. It seems to me the way to make things fair is to wait until the Keysight giveaway is over and exclude the 125 winners.  If N people enter the Keysight giveaway they each have a 125/N chance of winning (more or less, depending on how many times each person enters) and the people from ineligible countries have 0 chance, but once the giveaway is over N-125 people are in the same boat with 0 chance of winning.

The problem with 'odds' is that it is something abstract and not really realized (you either win or loose), but they are still real. I think you truncated the situation. After the contest is over, we are not talking about all the people that have 0 chance of winning, we are talking about the people that should have what kind of chance to win the continuation of the (similar) contest  by Dave. It's not over yet on April 1st.

So, is it fair for the N-125 to get yet another chance to win or should they be excluded because they have already had their chance and should not get a second chance.

I would look at it this way. The contest involves the infinite population of Earth and the one martian on Mars. Mars is excluded in the first contest. The question is, should Earth be excluded from the second contest? Does that make things fair? I do not think so. What if Mars had 2 martians, 3, half of Earth, or equal population of Earth. Maybe only if the populations were equal would such an adjustment be "fair". Would it be fair (to the martian) if the second contest only excluded the winners from the first? Well, that's not fair either because, in a practical sense, the Earthlings all still had twice the odds of the Martian (if the contest giveaways were equal).

So neither adjustment seems fair either to the martian or to the earthlings to me.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: nctnico on February 24, 2017, 07:34:28 pm
Can this go back on topic?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: metrologist on February 24, 2017, 07:54:01 pm
Can this go back on topic?

How is that not on topic? Besides, what is the topic anyway? Are we supposed to discuss the Keysight 1000X Giveaway or Dave's contest?

I thought we were talking about whether the contest should be limited. How do you determine that? Darts, statistics, discuss odds and such things? Probably the discussion is just a side show anyway and the determination will be by the popular vote.

What else is there to discuss that is ON topic?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: apelly on February 24, 2017, 08:29:58 pm
Seems silly to exclude the majority of forum users
Title: Re: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: mtdoc on February 24, 2017, 11:59:17 pm
It seems to me the way to make things fair is to wait until the Keysight giveaway is over and exclude the 125 winners. 

I like that idea  :-+.

Although it would mean waiting until April and perhaps Keysight requires Dave to give them away during "scope month".
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: NANDBlog on February 26, 2017, 12:29:42 am
Seems silly to exclude the majority of forum users
There are 196 countries in the world. KS managed to choose 18 of these for the contest.
Everyone from those countries are free to enter to the contest. They probably already registered their wife, all the kids and the dog for the contest. And they will have some two magnitude higher chance to win a scope.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: b_force on February 26, 2017, 11:22:19 pm
Seems silly to exclude the majority of forum users
Everyone from those countries are free to enter to the contest.
That's only true if people have the same amount of (easy) access to the internet.
Which is definitely and actually not the case.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 27, 2017, 01:46:43 am
Seems silly to exclude the majority of forum users
Everyone from those countries are free to enter to the contest.
That's only true if people have the same amount of (easy) access to the internet.
Which is definitely and actually not the case.

People's access to the internet is not a constraint in their eligibility to enter the giveaway.  It is a secondary factor that relates to their physical ability to do so.

The issue of eligibility is one that they simply cannot overcome.  However, if eligible, they DO have control over their ability to enter.  Yes, there may be some inconvenient logistics involved, but they do have the opportunity to act.  Certainly this exercise will be onerous for some - and they may choose to consider it more trouble than it's worth - but that is their decision.

For those people, Keysight has allowed them to participate and they have chosen not to - for whatever reason.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: aargee on February 28, 2017, 02:51:13 am
Just doing a bit of background on the Keysight competition... and made me think about Dave's competition idea...

So, playing devil's advocate here  >:D, if you choose to run a competition and only Patreon subscribers can enter.. does that change the legality?

ie "No purchase necessary to enter" etc you often see on competitions.

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Businesses/Advertising_and_marketing/Special_offers_and_competitions.page (http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Businesses/Advertising_and_marketing/Special_offers_and_competitions.page) the whole thing is a bit of a grey area.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Nusa on February 28, 2017, 09:41:27 am
For Dave it's pretty easy, so long as he's acting on his own and not as someone elses agent. Even though he has a global audience, he only has a small physical presence in one place. So for the most part he only has to worry about contest laws that are local to him, even if the winner lives elsewhere. The worst other jurisdictions can do is confiscate the prize, if they choose to spend the effort to intercept it. That rarely happens, although there could be tax/custom charges for the recipient.

For international corporations it's another matter. They have physical offices around the world, which means they need to respect all the contest laws for most of the countries/jurisdictions they offer the promotion in. For instance in the USA, while there are federal laws, there are also 50 states each with their take on exactly what is an illegal consideration or promotion.

Note I'm using "contest" generically to cover all the things giveaways get classified as, be it sweepstakes or gambling. This whole subject is pretty well covered by internet articles....just start searching.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: EEVblog on February 28, 2017, 11:36:19 am
So, playing devil's advocate here  >:D, if you choose to run a competition and only Patreon subscribers can enter.. does that change the legality?

It's not a competition. I found a used scope in a dumpster, I already have one, so figured I'd just give it away.
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on February 28, 2017, 12:28:37 pm
It's not a competition. I found a used scope in a dumpster, I already have one, so figured I'd just give it away.
Tell you what Dave, just to make it simpler for you (so you don't have to make any difficult decisions) I'll lighten your load and take it off your hands for you!   :popcorn:.

I'm nice like that - it may cause me some inconvenience picking it up but I'm always ready to help a friend out.  :-DD
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: bji900 on February 28, 2017, 03:08:28 pm
I would like to win a scope and the more chances that I have the better. It is like the age old argument "I dont like snow, well you live in Canada, so..., so you can move to Florida, but I dont want to..., well then stop complaining.)
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Brumby on February 28, 2017, 03:32:41 pm
It's not a competition. I found a used scope in a dumpster, I already have one, so figured I'd just give it away.
Tell you what Dave, just to make it simpler for you (so you don't have to make any difficult decisions) I'll lighten your load and take it off your hands for you!   :popcorn:.

I'm nice like that - it may cause me some inconvenience picking it up but I'm always ready to help a friend out.  :-DD

Perhaps Dave would not want to inconvenience you like that.  I could pick it up - and it wouldn't be an inconvenience at all.   :D
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: naldo on February 28, 2017, 04:11:57 pm
You're voted     !  :-+
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: kaz911 on February 28, 2017, 04:12:22 pm
Hi Dave,

would it be allowed to cast an entry/vote - but designate the vote towards a good purpose? Like a local school in your area?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on February 28, 2017, 11:48:56 pm
Perhaps Dave would not want to inconvenience you like that.  I could pick it up - and it wouldn't be an inconvenience at all.   :D
LOL - I'm sure I can live with the inconvenience thanks Brumby, wouldn't want to put you out at all.  :P
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 02, 2017, 02:18:51 pm
So I have a couple to giveaway, and the usual argument has come up again. Should I just limit the forum giveaway to countries not covered the Keysight Scopemonth promo, or to everyone?
Remember that Keysight are giving away 5 scopes per day for a month.
Argue away...

When you are to announce the winners in a live stream, could you please schedule it? On YouTube?
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Blue on March 02, 2017, 10:39:24 pm
Yeah,

I would love to win one Dave!

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Title: Re: POLL & Discussion: Keysight 1000X Giveaway
Post by: Sredni on March 02, 2017, 11:32:28 pm
I am not entering the contest because if I won, the scope would be stolen along the way. And if it did not get stolen, I would have to pay in taxes more than I would be willing to pay for a new scope.
Also, I would not want to disclose my country - that 'privacy' alone is worth more than a brand new scope.

But, I believe Dave should exclude the countries already included in Keysight's giveaway. They already have their chance to win one through that channel.
I would also push it even further and limit the countries to those where buying such an oscilloscope would be almost impossible for a young student or freshly graduated engineer. In that way, instead of adding one more scope - or a slightly better scope than was going to be bought anyway - the giveaway can really make a difference.

Perhaps using income per capita as an indicator could help. Like, make eligible only those countries where the scope would cost more than X months of average salary.

By the way, average income in Antarctica is four penguin eggs.

(No, my country would be excluded, too).

Now the whole western world hates me.  :)