Author Topic: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?  (Read 13937 times)

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Offline PriscaTopic starter

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Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« on: September 26, 2022, 09:57:07 am »
Heya!
I am Priscilla and I write about Ethics in Electronics for Elektor Magazine
(also a media psychologist and a boutique manufacturer of modular synthesizers)
We are organising our second World Ethical Electronics Forum on 15 november at Electronica, Munich
and would love your input on WHO to put in a ethical people index

Please send us your suggestions https://worldethicalelectronicsforum.com/nomination-form
and browse through our current collection here https://worldethicalelectronicsforum.com/index

 :-+

My writings for Elektor https://www.elektormagazine.com/authors/167432/priscilla-haring-kuipers
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 08:06:10 am by Prisca »
 

Offline 2N2222A

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2022, 12:40:23 am »
Everything that I can think of that connects to the Internet seems to stop being supported after 6 to 10 years. The old device is "recycled" by being shipped to Asia or Africa to be stripped of metals and burned in the open air. Meanwhile the company has released a new version of the product that is marginally better or sometimes worse than the previous version and the cycle repeats. I can't think of anything in the Internet connected home electronics category where the manufacturer doesn't behave this way.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2022, 12:43:12 am »
What is the definition of being ethical in electronics?
 

Offline PriscaTopic starter

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2022, 07:54:09 am »
Even getting to 10 years isnt always a given...
but dumping it in Asia / Africa should change soon as this will no longer be allowed under the European Green Deal and incoming climate law - manufacters are already now obliged to become part of the WEEE program where you pay to have proper recycling within the EU of the amount of electronics you produce (by weight). Currently not very workable for small companies but compulsary anyway...

Know anyone doing anything else that you might judge as ethical?
 

Offline PriscaTopic starter

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2022, 07:58:52 am »
What is the definition of being ethical in electronics?

Doing something morally good? Better than most?

Some deem legal as ethical - I personally do not, at least not always..

What do you think that being ethical in electronics means?
I would think working more than is usual on sustainability, workers circumstances, new materials, repairability, or getting laws in place that force everyone in tech to behave better to name a few things.
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2022, 09:42:48 am »
It seems you are adding a new definition to ethical.  Not once is morality mentioned [edit: by you].  On the other hand, you do mention laws to force people, and things like new materials, repairability, and sustainability.

As for advice on who to invite, how about inviting world leaders such as Kim Jong-un, Xi Jinping, Greta Thunberg, and John Kerry.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 10:14:02 am by jpanhalt »
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2022, 10:33:20 am »
What do you think that being ethical in electronics means?

To me it means bullshit.  It sounds like the modern version of how many angels can sit on a pinhead.  Find something useful to spend your time on.  Don't fell for whatever the current day propaganda is.  You only live once.  Make it count.

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2022, 01:41:42 am »
It seems you are adding a new definition to ethical.  Not once is morality mentioned.
JP, I beg to differ.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethics

Morality is indeed ingrained in the concept of acting/being ethical (more on this below).

(...)
What do you think that being ethical in electronics means?
I would think working more than is usual on sustainability, workers circumstances, new materials, repairability, or getting laws in place that force everyone in tech to behave better to name a few things.
Priscilla, I suspect that anyone's concept of being ethical will not be followed by the words force everyone, as the reality is that many initiatives like these have been misused for the benefit of a few.

I sincerely hope you are looking for a sincere discussion about this topic and find good all around suggestions and opinions around here, but do not get discouraged by the directness and opposite views of the crowd here. 
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2022, 02:23:46 am »
Priscilla, I suspect that anyone's concept of being ethical will not be followed by the words force everyone, as the reality is that many initiatives like these have been misused for the benefit of a few.

Looking in from a US perspective, it is indeed difficult to imagine a system that wouldn't be corrupted.

Alas, our chronic corruption biases our perception here.  Real ethical progress is, in fact, possible; at least in some places, and given enough concerted effort.  We have a long way to go in the US, sadly.

Or, put more mimetically (but significantly less charitably), one might note: snapping back at "force everyone" is a very USAian "muh freedums" kind of reaction.  That's a reaction which short-circuits the conversation, denying a meaningful engagement.

I don't know if that outcome was exactly intended, above -- but it is an extremely common application of it, and in the interests of highly (or potentially so) self-aware and introspective ethics or philosophy in this thread here, I think it is worthwhile and interesting to include this observation.

Indeed, substance!  Examples would be illustrative here, and if a few would like to air their thoughts, or stories perhaps, there would be some substance to fill that void.  A substance, a... food for thought, you might say. :-+


Others might like to air, oh I don't know -- standing up for engineering principles; customer values over exploitative dictates; workers rights; workplace safety / OSHA / etc.; or, say with respect to materials, choosing "which" companies that have better ethical tracks (in respect to "what" ethical values); etc.

---

For my part, uhh, well I could probably give many thoughts (no one here doubts my ability to do that....), but more particularly, I might highlight:

My success at work-from-home these last couple years, which I'm sure is over 90% and may be more like 99% (I haven't been tracking that specifically but could add up the logs).

Not that that's particularly special these days -- indeed, it's still actually pretty common.  But, that it's continued so well, since that catalytic event, is actually quite encouraging.

Anyway, this greatly saves on transportation costs (implication: reduced oil consumption, pollution).  Unfortunately, because almost all cities here in the US are devoid of walkable access [extremely car centric], it'll still be a long time before I'm able to get rid of my car entirely.  (Thus drawing attention to the in-environmentalism that is thrust upon me; I'm all but required to own a car -- among other costs I'm required to pay here.  What is the ethical role of that environment?  Good question, see!)

Or, picking one from the above list -- I haven't designed in a tantalum capacitor in quite a while.  They feel... almost obsolete, I guess, for power purposes?  That's not quite the right word, but, the workarounds are more than adequate for most purposes, and I would say they are niche use now (e.g. where the stable value is most useful -- long timing constants perhaps?).

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline DrGeoff

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2022, 02:56:15 am »
If you can't get 50 years of virtually continuous use from a product then the designers weren't even trying.
There are many examples of products made in the mid-1900's still in operation daily today.
Was it really supposed to do that?
 

Offline temperance

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2022, 01:07:14 pm »
I think you will get better answers by addressing giant corporation lobbyists who decide what's good for you. Perhaps it's more important to stop them from doing what they are doing.

In general women aren't very interested in a electrical engineering career. If you look up the ratio between female / male doctors in west EU you might see it's about 50/50. I don't think it has has something to do with the toys you've played with. Stating that being exposed to only female toys determines your choices later in life is a little short sighted. Maybe we can start to produce some statistical data. Perhaps it will show that girls who played with my little pony became veterinarians. Educated women are well represented amongst Doctors, Veterinarians, Dentists (wonder what kind of toys you must have been exposed to to decide to become a dentist. Any idea?), biologists, Lawyers, Mathematicians... Did you ever ask them why they didn't want to become electrical engineers? You probably didn't.


The problem with this gender propaganda is that some groups think they can force whatever idea into children and teenagers minds which confuses them even more making them do things like taking hormones and have their bodies modified which they regret some years later. Examples and testimonials can be found on the web and YT. Those people have the idea they got dragged into something which they didn't understand at that time and for which this ethical propaganda didn't prepare them. I don't think the group creating this kind of propaganda can be considered ethical.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 02:44:33 pm by temperance »
Some species start the day by screaming their lungs out. Something which doesn't make sense at first. But as you get older it all starts to make sense.
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2022, 04:40:01 pm »
If you can't get 50 years of virtually continuous use from a product then the designers weren't even trying.
There are many examples of products made in the mid-1900's still in operation daily today.

I use my hand-cranked calculator every day.  It would be unethical for me to buy one of those new electronic ones when the old one still functions perfectly. [/sarcasm]
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2022, 08:12:33 pm »
Oh great, more trans panic. :palm:

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline DrGeoff

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2022, 10:47:26 pm »
If you can't get 50 years of virtually continuous use from a product then the designers weren't even trying.
There are many examples of products made in the mid-1900's still in operation daily today.

I use my hand-cranked calculator every day.  It would be unethical for me to buy one of those new electronic ones when the old one still functions perfectly. [/sarcasm]

Takes out HP-15C from 1980 and still uses it.
Uses 1176 and LA-2A audio compressors daily. From 1960's.
Neve 1073 and 1084 preamps and EQ's. From 1970's.

Nobody ever chucks this stuff out. It still works and works really well.
Was it really supposed to do that?
 

Offline PriscaTopic starter

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2022, 02:44:49 pm »
Yes - so what I was hoping for is that you would know some people that I hadnt heard of yet

It is obvious to say that things are bad or jump into a discussion 'but what even is ethical?'
or that Big Tech and Big Money is killing us all without any considerations beyond profit -ethical considerations or otherwise
and it's all bullshit and greenwashing and very depressing

but you care about electronics, right? it is why you are here on this forum, right?

and maybe you know someone who is honestly trying to make the industry better
somehow
anyhow

I am looking for those people
please share the names here with us all
or nominate them here https://worldethicalelectronicsforum.com/nomination-form

thank you!

 

Online ebastler

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2022, 08:31:19 pm »
I just picked a random example from your website: https://worldethicalelectronicsforum.com/index/180442/Johannes_Brenner

My conclusion is that I don't have the slightest idea what you are trying to achieve here. Some sales & marketing guy who did what exactly? Was he even (ever) in the electronics business? What does "Leuchtturm Unternehmen" have to do with electronics; what does it do anyway; why is that ethical?

Sorry, but this looks painfully like a circle of people patting each other on the back. Or like the "Handbook of Important People" which you can get into by invitation only or by paying a modest fee.  ::)
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2022, 09:17:24 pm »
Deja vu.

I have had many invitations to join a "Who's who of xyz" on payment of a small fee.  Glad you pointed that out far better than I could have done.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2022, 09:34:09 pm »
If we talk about electronics manufacturing then "put customer needs and safety first over profits".
 

Offline DrGeoff

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2022, 09:37:37 pm »
Sounds like "Big Ethics"is trying to sell you something you probably don't need, or harvest your data for their own ethical purposes...
Was it really supposed to do that?
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2022, 10:34:07 pm »
reading the conference program and OP Percilla magazine articles, a moment please!

Is it " ethical" to diffusé political propaganda thinly disguised as " ethics"?

The entire political thread and ESG/other   concepts being promulgated as "Ethics" insults me.

Perhaps I am "unethical"?

Bon Soirée


Jon

An optimist in the nuclear age
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 09:22:46 am by jonpaul »
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2022, 12:50:34 am »
reading the conference program and OP Percilla magazine articles, a moment please!

Is it " ethical" to diffusé leftist political propaganda thinly disguised as " ethics"?

The entire political thread and leftist  concepts being promulgated as "Ethics" insults me.

Reality has a liberal bias.

Tim
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Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2022, 06:07:42 pm »
"Make the industry better"? This thread is a colossal waste of time, why put ethics on EE's when the business and finance execs have none whatsoever and are doing incredible damage. Example: Boeing 737 Max, Audi/Volkswagen Dieselgate etc. Sure, they ended up with a few token engineers as fall guys but the execs are eating caviar right now despite killing people and commanding products to generate mass pollution in order to save a few litres of bluetec.

To me it seems to be another SJW narrative when it's really corporate malfeasance and big money as the problem, not the engineers.
Please put your journalistic talents someplace useful. You won't help/change/modify the profession, when all the while its gatekeepers run wild. Especially in Elektor which I was first reading in the late 1970's.
I looked at the world ethical electronics forum website and laughed, you seem to forget that profit is king on Wall Street never mind supporting the ethical veneer of those executives, for fame and glory.

I once worked applying electronics to handicapped people, amputees and spinal cord injuries. That's when I realized if EE's could actually give a shit about humanity there would be 1000's of projects to help the lesser people. And there are not - because it's a money loser and not a business case. No business is interested in making the devices en mass.
Look at all the maker covid ventilator projects, all purporting to help humanity yet ending up more as attention seeking projects.
OP, care to comment on the "media psychology" there? Where people build devices for fame and glory, to lure investors under the guise of "ethics". It's a rampant scam. Can we discuss Theranos, or Nikola?
 
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Offline temperance

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2022, 06:50:41 pm »
I've been reading some articles on the webpages she linked too. It can be reduced to the following:

-Gender equality propaganda. (reducing the "why women are not in tech" to: the problems are the toys they have been exposed too. If that would be the case, some of my old neighbors would be ninja turtles.

-TED talk meaningless language use all over the place such as: "change must come from within, from the people." But it seems to make a certain group of people feel happy flappy.

And the remainder:
companies talking about ethics while using the economic gain in the same paragraph....That's not ethical but business as usual.

But I got disappointed. No mention of arduinos and sensors to improve peoples lives. That's probably for next year.
Some species start the day by screaming their lungs out. Something which doesn't make sense at first. But as you get older it all starts to make sense.
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2022, 06:57:29 pm »
That's when I realized if EE's could actually give a shit about humanity there would be 1000's of projects to help the lesser people. And there are not - because it's a money loser and not a business case.

I was an engineer at a company that made products for people with speech and hearing handicaps.  We did all sorts of custom work, but with the goal of turning those special designs into volume-production products.  Most "specials" never took off, but they were quite useful for the few people we were working with, and I found this highly gratifying. 

But the company did have products that sold in enough volume to keep us all employed.  And that's the key.  Unless you have a bottomless barrel of cash you are willing to burn through, you do need a business case .  It takes revenue to keep the doors open.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Who is being Ethical in Electronics?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2022, 07:55:13 pm »
A moment please....

Can the  OP precise exactly which mandarins with sinecures at her organization/group/government  shall decree to the rest of us lowly peons, exactly how to define "ethical" ?

Who is funding this entire venture?

EXAMPLES: Are the   EV mfg like Tesla, that steal $7K...15K subsides per vehicle of taxpayer money, as being "ethical"?

 
Is Apple building its ijunk by Foxcomm slave labor  in Communist China "ethical" ?


Perhaps "ethical"  is defined like the Supreme Court Justice's definition of pornography "We know it when we see it"

Have a great day!

Jon



« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 08:57:56 pm by jonpaul »
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