Author Topic: dehydration?  (Read 10595 times)

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Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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dehydration?
« on: November 16, 2023, 06:13:45 am »
I managed to make OK beef jerky in an air fryer with a dehydrator button, by hanging it on the stuff that came with it. Not that much meat fit in the machine but it was ok, filet mignon scraps from making steaks.


A soy sauce, brown sugar, onion powder and garlic marinade was made. I vacuum sealed it in a bag with the meat scraps, it did break down the emulsion that formed from blending the marinade, but vacuum duration was insufficient to fully degas the bag after 20  seconds, a small pocket of air remained. I figure that the dissolved oxygen in the marinade would oxidize the meat. Next time I will use the vacuum blender to prepare the marinade so there is less guess work on the vacuum sealer on time. If you put too long a vacuum time it boils over in the bag and then does not seal properly in the chamber vac. Vacuum blended slurries are much easier to time. I wish my vacuum sealer had a override button to trigger the sealing operation rather then just a stop operation button.

The cook duration was 145F for 11 hours, which was too long. I sampled it at 4 hours and it was pretty good but I ended up going to sleep.

It seems worth while to make this from larger scraps when cutting steaks, especially without dedicated dehydrating equipment. Since it was scraps from sinew removal, improving quality would have required periodic monitoring to remove smaller pieces.


Low temperature cooked bacon is good, idk if you can call it a jerky, kind of. IDK if it stores well, I made it in the oven before.

this is really broad

but good beef jerky is expensive, however it did take 4 large filet mignon roundish bar stock? to get maybe 14 decently hefty beef jerky chunks from scrap. However this was suprizingly easy, next time I process meat, I might properly cut some beef jerky strips instead of a few steaks.

It does smell some, but its not a aroma that is as intoxicating as bread or roast meat during cooking.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 06:21:08 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline jpanhalt

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2023, 09:32:24 am »
Pasteurization at 60°C (140°F) only kills vegetative bacteria.  It does not sterilize, and probably most important, it doesn't kill spores.  Be careful with long term storage.
 

Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2023, 02:37:14 am »
yeah it was gone within 6 hours but I read you need to heat it to a higher temp for  brief period of time. And I did do 145F

storing it IDK, I think it would be fine in the freezer though? I heard the long term processing degrade the quality of the food. Since I am not looking for a doomsday stockpile I think I will be alright.

you think the quality would be higher if you vacuum seal it in the freezer or if you do the extra heating step?


How about heating them in the marinade? Because I vacuum seal them with the marinade, it would be easy to throw it into the sous vide cooker for a bit.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 02:45:37 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline jpanhalt

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2023, 09:42:36 am »
Pasteurization and sterilization are far more effective under moist conditions than dry.  That's one reason steam autoclaves (e.g., 121°C/15 minutes) are used.  Dry sterilization temperature is much higher.  Your food is moist.  Drying itself, particularly in the presence of protein or even just agar, is not very effective at killing infectious agents.  One way to store them long term is by lyophilization and sealing under vacuum.

Subsequent storage in a freezer will help.  -20°C is more effective than the temperature in the freezer compartment of most home refrigerators. Chest freezers can reach that temperature.  Suboptimal freezing can actually decrease stability as the water crystallizes out and other agents involved in degradation are concentrated.  One can easily see that effect on analytes stored in seum in a warmer freezer.

Vacuum sealing in plastic will reduce freezer burn and frost.  And of course, freezing reduces or stops microbial growth.

 

Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2023, 09:46:32 am »
hey how about a steam oven ? I got the phillips or something steam oven. It has a pump that squirts a bit of water into it once in a while. I mean it does not like puff out condensation but its enough to increase the thermal transfer by alot. It cooks food faster and it kinda comes out soggy (good for rejuvinating old pizza crust and bread)

But, I read that vacuum marinating meat is the way to go, so you might as well do it in the bag. Unless you have one of those vacuum tumble marinators, then you lose the bag.

I don't utilize that oven enough, but it was only 40$ + some panel beating and electronics repairs.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 09:48:35 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline jpanhalt

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2023, 09:52:51 am »
To be sterilized/decontaminated, the items have to reach temperature.  Squirting steam at them probably won't accomplish that; although, it does increase humidity.  100°C will definitely change the flavor and appearance of most food.  I like hard boiled eggs.
 

Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2023, 10:05:00 am »
No, it squirts liquid water into the oven so it fills up with water vapor. Its not pressurized, and its not alot of water, but I know water expands ALOT. Not sure how much O2 is left in the oven. I think it manages it so the drip tray does not overflow with condensation.

IDK if a real steam oven is much different. This would be similar to putting a pump on the side of a toaster oven. 1ml = 1700ml for steam water, and the oven is not that large.


https://shop.sharpusa.com/sharp-superheated-steam-countertop-oven-ssc0586ds/

What makes a better steam oven? is it supposed to be billowing steam?

I kinda figure its some hybrid between a real s team oven and a oven.

actually maybe it does heat it up before squirting instead of using the oven wall. not sure. I don't know how they would prevent clogging if they did that. I had to repair it and that bit just looked like a pump and a tank. Unless i missed something.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 10:12:29 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2023, 10:16:41 am »
or even better, how about just pressure cooking the meat in the little air fryer? This one has a pressure cooker lid.

So I could hang it up, pour some water on the bottom, pressure cook it with steam at high pressure, then change lids and dehydrate. I just forgot if there is seperate bowls for the two operations or just a different lid. I think if I don't need to change the bowl for even more cleaning then its a winner because there is no water bath to heat up.

if I remember this right, then it will just require 1 little step to add water and swap lids... that almost makes it worth while to make a bag of long term storage jerky once in a while

a skirt steak might work too. that makes it almost convenient.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 10:19:28 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2023, 11:11:48 am »
Jerky isn't a thing in here in Europe. I thought it was invented by the Native Americans, who just dried meat in the sun. Pasteurisation was invented later by the Europeans.

Is sterilisation really necessary? So what the spores will survive, but the low moisture and high sodium content will prevent bacterial growth.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 02:41:35 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2023, 08:42:18 pm »
well the sun actually sterilize alot more then the oven maybe.. depends on UV index.

meat in the open near a fire possibly in the sunlight with the smoke might be really dead compared to a cozy oven. Also the moisture content near the beef gotta be lower outside. Especially if you make this stuff in the winter it gets like nuked, with the snow reflection adding extra UV maybe

i feel like native americans would probobly string up a line or use stick, they would not try to make a matrix of hanging meat, which casts shadows on the interior meat pieces, so it would get a good irradiation.




There is biltong also, but that is made in africa, where the sun is pretty powerful.

I did also think about that, because I had my UV wand nearby, but you would need to do it while its cooking... don't trust the process so much when the meat is crinkly. and you need high separation to get rid of shadows

starts to feel like some umbrella corp operation too, with the uV lights
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 08:48:44 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2023, 05:27:04 pm »
UV only sterilises the surface. It won't have any effect on bacteria more than a fraction of a millimetre deep.
 

Offline Microdoser

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2023, 06:22:56 pm »
I make biltong, I air dry it indoors at room temperature and I have no problems although my room has plenty of ventilation. The vinegar and Worcester sauce marinade and the salt in the spice rub is where a lot of the sterilisation comes from, the vinegar penetrates and sterilises, then the salt forces liquid out of the meat which then dries too much and too quick to go bad (at least in theory). Just keep an eye out for green meat, or bad smells. If it dries too quick, you can get 'casing' where the outside is too dry to let the inside dry out any more. Just slice it up after 4-5 days and if you notice this has happened, put it in a sealed bag in the fridge and it equals out.
 
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Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2023, 03:49:16 am »
damn I was interested in that stuff but its kinda perilous compared to thin beef jerky. I heard its much better though. That one seems like it can make you end up in the ER if you make a mistake.

how do you define plenty of ventilation? ambient temperature & humidity? and will soy sauce work instead of woster sauce? (i hate that stuff... it finds itself as a contaminant in the fancy salad dressings)

I see they go by mass reduction for this food, it looks like a spring scale could come in handy
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 03:57:08 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Microdoser

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2023, 03:13:58 pm »
damn I was interested in that stuff but its kinda perilous compared to thin beef jerky. I heard its much better though. That one seems like it can make you end up in the ER if you make a mistake.

how do you define plenty of ventilation? ambient temperature & humidity? and will soy sauce work instead of woster sauce? (i hate that stuff... it finds itself as a contaminant in the fancy salad dressings)

I see they go by mass reduction for this food, it looks like a spring scale could come in handy

Yes, soy will work just as good, my wife has a soy intolerance so that's not an option for me. The main thing in the initial marinade is the vinegar. Starts off the curing and gets rid of some bugs. Regarding 'plenty of ventilation' I would say that's mainly to stop the humidity in the air getting too high, which would slow the drying. A small fan blowing the air in the room about a bit should be fine. I hang mine from a bit of string, with cable ties through the meat (hooks would be better, but I don't have them). In the first day, the salt pulls out a LOT of moisture from the meat, which drips down below (put a tray or plenty of kitchen roll down). Ambient temps are around 22c, humidity about 60%. You can tell when it's done (about 4 days) because it goes hard. If it goes hard, but the middle is still red, slice it, bag it, put it in the fridge until it equalises. I put my salt on with the spices and brush as much off as I just before I slice it, although some recipes say to have the salt in the marinade. I reckon a salty coating helps it cure and dry quicker. I've not had any problems so far using this method. The guides I've seen say if the meat goes green, or smells bad, it's bad and throw that slice away.

I use silverside as it's cheap and not much use for anything else.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2023, 08:04:06 pm »
When I was a kid we made beef jerky frequently, using a classic Ronco dehydrator.

There’s no need to vacuum marinade; that’s just a time-saving step for industrial production. You just need to make enough marinade for the meat to be submerged. Time will do the rest.

I don’t remember the exact recipe, but I think it was basically soy sauce, sugar, garlic, and pepper. I do not recall using Worcestershire sauce, but don’t hold me to that.

1. Put meat in freezer for a little while. Partially freezing makes it FAR easier to slice thinly and evenly.
2. Make marinade.
3. Slice meat. Try your hardest to make the slices of very even, consistent thickness.
4. Put meat in marinade overnight.
5. Pat dry and lay meat on dehydrator racks. Compensate for uneven thickness by bunching up or overlaying the too-thin parts.
6. Dehydrate until dry, but not crispy.

Long-term storage was never an issue, since I always ate it faster than we could make it! ;D
 

Offline tooki

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2023, 08:13:16 pm »
damn I was interested in that stuff but its kinda perilous compared to thin beef jerky. I heard its much better though. That one seems like it can make you end up in the ER if you make a mistake.

how do you define plenty of ventilation? ambient temperature & humidity? and will soy sauce work instead of woster sauce? (i hate that stuff... it finds itself as a contaminant in the fancy salad dressings)

I see they go by mass reduction for this food, it looks like a spring scale could come in handy

Yes, soy will work just as good, my wife has a soy intolerance so that's not an option for me.
If your wife can eat wheat, look for Chinese tian mian jiang sauce (aka “sweet bean sauce”, “sweet flour paste”, etc). Most of them contain no soybean at all, being made entirely from wheat. It’s a black paste with a consistency similar to peanut butter. Nonetheless the flavor is very similar to soy sauce (but a bit less assertive I’d say), and could probably be used as a soy sauce substitute.

I use it when making mapo tofu (together with dou ban jiang spicy bean paste) and it really adds a lot.

See https://thewoksoflife.com/sweet-bean-sauce-tian-mian-jiang/ for how to identify it amongst the many similar looking and poorly labeled items. :)
 
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Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2023, 08:53:17 pm »
Well vacuums do have an effect. As I saw with freeze dried cheese cake, submerged in water after 24 hours it was crunch in the middle. Approx 1 minute in vacuum bag it was fully restored.

I don't think wet meat has quite this difference, but I think the time saving is SUBSTANTIAL. To me same day setup is big, I always have something going on that interferes with having to make long term kitchen schedules. The kitchen just runs smoother when I can finish things faster.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2023, 09:11:24 pm »
UV only sterilises the surface. It won't have any effect on bacteria more than a fraction of a millimetre deep.
That's probably OK for pristine chunks of meat. Its a problem if you reconstitute sheets of meat from minced meat, which some of the Taiwanese variants of jerky use. I have no idea how those are made suitable for long term storage without high temperature processing.
 

Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2023, 09:31:44 pm »
maybe a gamma ray field of high intensity

I heard those fruit bar snacks with jam in the middle of a sticky pastry in the aluminum wraps are made possible by nuclear radiation. yogurt cups too?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2023, 09:36:18 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2023, 10:28:46 pm »
Well vacuums do have an effect. As I saw with freeze dried cheese cake, submerged in water after 24 hours it was crunch in the middle. Approx 1 minute in vacuum bag it was fully restored.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say here, never mind what it would have to do with beef jerky.

I don't think wet meat has quite this difference, but I think the time saving is SUBSTANTIAL. To me same day setup is big, I always have something going on that interferes with having to make long term kitchen schedules. The kitchen just runs smoother when I can finish things faster.
I said it saves time. I was just saying that vacuum marinading is not necessary, i.e. one can make jerky without a vacuum.
 

Offline coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2023, 10:45:54 pm »
i highly recommend it

alot of people don't know its used for things other then preservation and that it can be used to save time

and I doubt the results are the same even after 24 hours

and essential if you want pineapple marinade or something not to totally tenderize your food with too long exposure

I think its saying something about the quality of the process when you get better results with dry food in 1 minute then you do in 24 hours totally submerged. probobly not as good but I think it makes a decent metric.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 10:48:39 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: dehydration?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2023, 11:08:08 pm »
I still don’t understand why you’re talking about dry things. The beef is wet, not dry, when it goes into the marinade. The physics of reconstituting dry things are irrelevant to marinating, which is driven by osmosis, not rehydration.

I assure you, 8-12 hours is more than enough to completely marinate the beef. It’s cut very thin, so the surface area-to-volume ratio is very favorable. In fact, if you just did it for 2 hours it would probably be fine.

I’m not disputing the utility of a vacuum sealer. ALL I was saying is that one is not NECESSARY to make beef jerky, in that one will get the same result with overnight marinating.
 


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