Author Topic: Doner Kebab (updated)  (Read 1568 times)

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Offline Microdoser

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Doner Kebab (updated)
« on: February 04, 2021, 03:02:27 pm »
Spice mix:
4 crushed garlic cloves
3 tablespoons grated onion
3 tablespoons chopped fresh parsley
1 tablespoon ground coriander
1 tablespoon cumin
1/2 tablespoon ground cinnamon
1/2 teaspoon ground allspice
1/4 teaspoon cayenne pepper
1/4 teaspoon ground ginger
1/4 teaspoon ground black pepper
salt to taste, around 1 teaspoon

get 350g of finely minced lamb combined with 350g of finely minced beef and place it in a food mixer with the spice and herb mix, mix well until it bonds together

Place in ovenproof dish, cover with foil, pierce the foil in a number of places and cook at 180c for 60 minutes. Reserve the fat/juices and allow to cool.

Slice the 'meatloaf' into thin slices, sear in a large heavy bottomed frying pan adding some of the reserved fat/juices to moisten the meat slices.

Slice thinly some cabbage, onion, tomato, cucumber

add meat then add sliced vegetables to a toasted pitta (or freshly cooked naan)

add some rooster brand sriracha, garlic mayo, Tzatziki, whatever sauces you like.

Drink beer then enjoy ;)

Alternatively, soak some wooden skewers in water for 30 minutes and make kofta kebabs for the BBQ
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 12:39:28 pm by Microdoser »
 
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Offline Microdoser

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2021, 12:38:54 pm »
I wasn't happy with the recipe, so I have updated it. This is much closer to 'British takeaway kebab' meat.
 

Offline ucanel

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2021, 08:14:38 pm »
I am from homeland of doner kebap,
doner means turns, turning.
If it is not turning it is not a doner kebab.

Cinnamon and meat does not go along in here.
Of course taste depends on so many things.
 

Offline Microdoser

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2021, 10:13:40 pm »
I am from homeland of doner kebap,
doner means turns, turning.
If it is not turning it is not a doner kebab.

Cinnamon and meat does not go along in here.
Of course taste depends on so many things.

I would be very interested in your recipe.
I posted this so that people who do not have access to a spit could make a reasonable kebab at home like the ones they could buy in a UK takeaway.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2021, 10:12:43 am »
Gyro, Kebab, Souvlaki or even Shawarma all get a little misused and confused and even throw in Falafel to really confuse it.  ;) Pick your meat of choice flavour to suit your palate and enjoy. Yes with Beer too or Raki or even a G&T are all appropriate IMO.

And I won't get into if the Greeks or Turks made the first vertical cooking device wars are fought over far less :box: :-DD

Shack Saturday version below. If I can be bothered I make my own Pita bread but this time I was lazy so commercial wraps.

Slice thinly or cube the Lamb preferably a cut with a little fat on it (Lamb Leg for me).

Marinade
Garlic 1 clove/250g
Lemon 1/2 or a bit more
Good Glug of Olive Oil
Pepper - lots
Salt - a little
Herbs of choice or even a teaspoon of a Middle Eastern spice blend (Ras el Hanout goes well with Lamb for a variation).

Leave it for 6-12 hours

Salad for me is really simple Red Onion, Cherry Tomatoes and Baby Spinach. Locally there is a bad trend of using Bland Iceberg Lettuce  :horse: just say NO.

Garlic Aioli commercial is easy and it keeps well in the fridge or if you are feeding a few then make your own.

Don't overcook whatever meat you use and lightly warmup or toast the flatbread on the pan to freshen it up or I pan cook my flatbreads as needed on the same.

Repeat as needed - BURP  ;D

Stunt Falafel shot below on home made Turkish Bread with similar salad but Tzatziki rather than the Aioli.
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Offline Ian.M

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2021, 10:52:00 am »
Turkish takeaway Doner kebab meat gets put on its vertical spit a bit before they open and cooked as required to keep up with demand, and in slower periods maintain a safe surface temperature.  The fat drips off.   

Cooking it for 60 minutes at 180 deg C (gas mark 4) swimming in its fat and juices doesn't accurately reproduce the commercial cooking profile.  I'd suggest lower slower cooking, with the meat loaf wrapped in well-pierced foil on a trivet in a roasting pan so it can drain, then unwrap the foil and turn up the temperature a lot to brown it.  If you flip it halfway through browning, it should be fairly close to the commercial spit roast meat.

However that's a *LOT* of work vs making Kofta kebabs out of it to throw on the braai.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2021, 11:27:32 am »
The Vertical Rotisserie is the most modern cooking option in this style and is only circa 100 years old from memory. Grilled on Skewers and Horizontal Rotisseries have centuries of history by comparison.

In a commercial situation unless you have reasonable trust in the vendor or see plenty of turnover going on I would prefer it skewered or grilled.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2021, 11:06:55 pm »
I wasn't happy with the recipe, so I have updated it. This is much closer to 'British takeaway kebab' meat.

The best Doner Kebab ever is the one you get at 3am after a hard night on the shandies and disco dancing.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 11:30:33 pm by Ed.Kloonk »
 

Online Hydrawerk

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2021, 11:28:09 pm »
I like kebab in pita.
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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2021, 04:53:45 pm »
In a commercial situation unless you have reasonable trust in the vendor or see plenty of turnover going on I would prefer it skewered or grilled.
A good vendor will grill the meat shavings on a hotplate for a few minutes before serving.
 

Online thinkfat

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2021, 05:32:25 pm »
In a commercial situation unless you have reasonable trust in the vendor or see plenty of turnover going on I would prefer it skewered or grilled.
A good vendor will grill the meat shavings on a hotplate for a few minutes before serving.

A great vendor certainly will not.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2021, 06:12:15 pm »
In a commercial situation unless you have reasonable trust in the vendor or see plenty of turnover going on I would prefer it skewered or grilled.
A good vendor will grill the meat shavings on a hotplate for a few minutes before serving.

That has nothing to with food safety. Chicken more so than Lamb or Beef sitting under a safe temperate because 'the meat dries out on the surface' so they turn down the gas is the problem.

Also ever wonder where 'leftover' meat on the stick goes after a session or evening? It will in most cases sit on the stick cooling then sometime later go in the fridge and go back on the machine the next day.

A recent bad trend in Oz and likely in other Western countries is you can now buy the meat pre 'flavoured' and stacked ready to go on the grill from food wholsalers. Our local Kebab shop just went on my do not enter list for this.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 06:20:10 pm by beanflying »
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Online thinkfat

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2021, 05:09:57 am »
In a commercial situation unless you have reasonable trust in the vendor or see plenty of turnover going on I would prefer it skewered or grilled.
A good vendor will grill the meat shavings on a hotplate for a few minutes before serving.

That has nothing to with food safety. Chicken more so than Lamb or Beef sitting under a safe temperate because 'the meat dries out on the surface' so they turn down the gas is the problem.

Also ever wonder where 'leftover' meat on the stick goes after a session or evening? It will in most cases sit on the stick cooling then sometime later go in the fridge and go back on the machine the next day.

A recent bad trend in Oz and likely in other Western countries is you can now buy the meat pre 'flavoured' and stacked ready to go on the grill from food wholsalers. Our local Kebab shop just went on my do not enter list for this.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but of course the "sticks" are factory-made and delivered to the shop deep-frozen. Around here there's literally no Kebab shop that would make their own sticks any more. It's been this way for years. In German cities there's a Kebab shop basically on every corner, none of them prepare the meat themselves, and haven't for the last 20 years.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2021, 05:28:02 am »
This shop in question changed hands about a year ago. The former Turkish owners made their own dips and loaded their own meat. The new owners 'simplified' their preparations including buying buckets of sloppy bland commercial dips.  :horse:

That stunt Falafel shot a bit back up the thread is what I was putting up at a local Market in rotation as a Vego option instead of a Handmade Lamb or Chicken Burger. The Chick Peas are soaked from dried - yep I am that nuts  ;)

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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2021, 02:18:27 am »
A great vendor certainly will not.
There is nothing great about violating food safety standards.

Reheating on a hotplate is about two things: 1. pasteurising the meat to prevent food poisoning; 2. cook the meat if the shavings are still raw and didn't have enough time to grill (which can happen in a busy place).

That has nothing to with food safety. Chicken more so than Lamb or Beef sitting under a safe temperate because 'the meat dries out on the surface' so they turn down the gas is the problem.
It has everything to do with food safety.  The inner core of the kebab may not reached pasteurisation temperature, even when the outside is grilled. The inner core can leak un-pasterurised marinade and contaminate the grilled meat when you shave it off. Further more,  there may not be enough time to completely grill the meat in high traffic restaurants. Therefore a quick reheat on the hotplate is required after shaving.
 
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2021, 02:26:58 am »
It has to do with in Oz in particular what is known as the 4 hour rule. My comment about 'nothing to do with food safety' was directed to YOU. Reheating on a grill is NOT acceptable and has nothing to do with food safety. I would be very unworried about any marinade if it is made traditionally as it will be along the lines of Lemon and Olive Oil as a base.

A quick reheat of a potentially dangerous product is not acceptable.

https://www.foodauthority.nsw.gov.au/consumer/eating-out/doner-kebabs#:~:text=Cook%20thoroughly%3A&text=ensure%20sliced%20meat%20is%20properly,freezer%20once%20cooking%20had%20stopped.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 02:37:55 am by beanflying »
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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2021, 03:33:27 am »
My comment about 'nothing to do with food safety' was directed to YOU. Reheating on a grill is NOT acceptable and has nothing to do with food safety.

A quick reheat of a potentially dangerous product is not acceptable.
If the product is already contaminated due to poor food handling, then of course rehearing is not acceptable. I totally agree with you on that.

However, irrespective how much precautions you take with the preparation and the storage, microbes will be present within the meat stack. The 4 hour rule, cooling, using acidic marinades is really about turning the game of probability into our favour. Rotisserie grilling will not eliminate microbes in the core either, unless the core temperature is over 75 deg C. In order to achieve such high temperatures, the outer meat layer must be shaved regularly to prevent burning. The roasting on the hotplate is an additional pasteurisation step that rotisserie grilling could not achieve, especially in situations with a high turnover. It also ensures the shaved meat is kept over 60 deg C, as the law requires to prevent further growth of surviving microbes.

Quote
I would be very unworried about any marinade if it is made traditionally as it will be along the lines of Lemon and Olive Oil as a base.
Lemon and olive oil is hardly a barrier for microbial activity, when the bulk of the liquid comes from the meat. The pH would not be low enough to inhibit microbes; some even thrive in such conditions.

 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2021, 03:52:21 am »
There is a reason the meat is probed for temperature in the core. During the initial 'cooking' of the stack it should come up to or above a safe temperature within a safe time it does not remain 'uncooked' and the surface will naturally be hotter and more cooked. This is no different to cooking a roast in an Oven in commercial kitchens generally (not always) the core is probed as a measure of the state of cooked they are aiming for and it is generally above a food safe temp.

The issue still remains as I put initially if the owner/operator turns down the temperature as their turnover of the surface meat is low during a slow period the core will fall below a food safe temperature. In a well patronized place generally this is far less a concern. I also would as I put earlier question the treatment of the stack and in particular the cooldown and reuse for a later session.

Also stop using the word 'pasteurization' too it doesn't generally get applied to cooking it is generally a pre preparation step for raw ingredients for safe storage and use. Within the industry and by Chefs/Cooks it simply doesn't get used in this way.

Quote
The inner core can leak un-pasterurised marinade
You used the word 'marinade', Lemon and Oil does not need to be 'pasteurized'. If what you were trying to say was the meat juices or liquified fats then ok.

There is a serious reason vertically grilled Kebabs in the industry are a known higher risk food preparation method, have there own part in the codes and the Health inspectors keep after them.
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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2021, 04:36:49 am »
Also stop using the word 'pasteurization' too it doesn't generally get applied to cooking it is generally a pre preparation step for raw ingredients for safe storage and use. Within the industry and by Chefs/Cooks it simply doesn't get used in this way.
Pasteurisation is a process of deactivating microbes using heat over a period of time. Whether it's applied to food for preservation, or ingredients used in cooking, or foods that was already cooked, is completely immaterial.

Quote
Quote
The inner core can leak un-pasterurised marinade
You used the word 'marinade', Lemon and Oil does not need to be 'pasteurized'. If what you were trying to say was the meat juices or liquified fats then ok.
Look, you're splitting hairs here. If the marinade is already combined with the meat, as indicated in the quote above, then obviously whatever liquid that leaks out will also contain components from the meat itself. Is that not self evident? So by definition, the marinade (mixed with the meat juices or liquefied fats - just to be pedantic) leaking all over the meat shavings will require reheating on the hotplate, which is effectively a pasteurisation process.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with you about concerns of maintaining safe core temperature in grilling. But I also still think hotplate treatment is an extra safety net that should not be overlooked.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2021, 04:59:33 am »
You go talk to a Chef in their kitchen and ask them if they have properly pasteurized your steak. You had better be able to run fast to keep ahead of them.  :-DD

In a current/modern setting pasteurization even when done in a commercial kitchen rather than an industrial food processing plant is done to a specific Temperature then generally held for a specified time at that temperature then rapid cooled and containerized for storage. I am not aware of any product that is brought up to temperature and held at a high temperature that is  considered 'pasteurized'.

Quote
But I also still think hotplate treatment is an extra safety net that should not be overlooked.

This is simply not acceptable in a commercial setting. Do this with a stack under temperature and your ass will get handed to you by the appropriate health department.
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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2021, 05:36:05 am »
You go talk to a Chef in their kitchen and ask them if they have properly pasteurized your steak. You had better be able to run fast to keep ahead of them.  :-DD

Irrelevant. The scientific nomenclature for heat treating food for the purpose of deactivating microbes is called pasteurisation.

Quote
In a current/modern setting pasteurization even when done in a commercial kitchen rather than an industrial food processing plant is done to a specific Temperature then generally held for a specified time at that temperature then rapid cooled and containerized for storage. I am not aware of any product that is brought up to temperature and held at a high temperature that is  considered 'pasteurized'.

You are describing a very specific process, called HTST Pasteurisation, which is only applicable to products, such as milk. [1] There are dozens of pasteurisation techniques, some involve gradual change in temperatures, others don't. Some even use microwaves. [2]

I recommend reading the following literature. They are excellent sources about food preservation, controlling microbes in food, and safety issues.

1. James G. Brennan, "Food Processing Handbook", page 49; 2001, ISBN: 9783527634361

2. M. Shafiur Rahman, "Handbook of Food Preservation (Second Edition)", pages 571, 691; 1999,  ISBN-13: 978-1574446067
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2021, 05:57:43 am »
I recommend you get a basic grip on commercial kitchen practice and safety before lecturing someone who has 'some' background in one. Your use of the word is simply WRONG, heating and holding bear 'some' similarities to PART of pasteurization but it is NOT.

You now involving non typical or specific preserving techniques to what end? They will all involve Heating or adding heat in various forms (I know some oddball processes are not heat based) then COOLING and containerization to prevent assorted microbes and bugs re growing or starting. None of those processes are just a cooking or heating phase they are a complete cycle. Unless you have a specific one involving on going heat and open air exposure?
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Online thinkfat

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2021, 07:04:54 am »
Given that Germany is pretty much the homeland of the Döner Kebab, if not by origin but by ubiquity, and no shop here will reheat the meat on a hotplate, and food poisoning from bad meat doesn't appear to be a major issue, how big of an issue is it really? I'm much more concerned about overall hygiene, especially around the other, non-cooked ingredients. Seems like the greater risk to me.

Around here, most of the Döner shops are franchised. They don't even bother to give their shops proper names, for example we have 'Alibaba' 1 through 4, another chain is called Eurokebab, a local Italian restaurant called 'San Pellegrino' is also secretly a Döner shop. Döner Kebab is probably the most popular street food in Germany.

Unfortunately that makes it hard to find the real good ones, since they are all effectively sourcing their ingredients from the same wholesalers, they all taste the same. The Döner business is entirely industrialized. But since it is a multi billion euro market, it is also quite tightly controlled with regards to food safety and hygiene.

Still, it is probably a good idea to actually visit a shop and see how well it is run. I would not order Döner for delivery like I'd order a Pizza. It would typically arrive cold and with the bread soaked anyway.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2021, 07:21:07 am »
Depends on the sauce and how it is made and stored. Most of the shops here run salad bars and the sauces will sit in one of the Bain Marie inserts to keep them cold so not a huge issue. Mushy Kebabs are not a fun thing so fresh and eat I reckon if you have one with sauce :-+

Post WW1 Turkish migration/workers is why you have so many I suspect. When I was in Turkey it was German or French as a second language with the general population with a lot of the younger population with English as theirs but still German and French are common.

In Melbourne we still have some good ones if you know where to look. One of my old haunts Mamma would come in of an afternoon and make a batch of Pide to go with their dips while the sons ran the Doner Kebabs with commercial flat breads of an evening. Once a week Bread, couple of tubs of dip for the week and some shaved meat in a box then go home and enjoy. The box of meat/dips and salad with bread on the side is still a thing at the better places.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Doner Kebab (updated)
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2021, 08:08:02 am »
I had one today. Not too dry, not too dripping. Wrapped perfectly so was manageable in the car. Just a shop on the side of the road. Beaut.
 


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