Author Topic: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope  (Read 30013 times)

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Offline rthorntn

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10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« on: December 28, 2013, 04:58:15 am »
For $300 USD:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1855991221/10-ghz-usb-oscilloscope

Manual for his previous version: http://www.fastsampling.com/Products/DS800/DS800Manual14.pdf

To a beginner this appears to be heaps more bandwidth than my 100Mhz Rigol?

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 05:07:01 am by rthorntn »
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2013, 05:08:05 am »
I hold some strong reservations on that, mainly due to the plastic enclosure and the switch-mode supply being so close to the ADC,
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2013, 05:13:35 am »
$300 per scope.
They need $80k.
Ain't gonna happen.

It's a 10 GHz sampling scope with 1V max inputs. Highly specialized for a hobbyist. Are there really 270 people with $300 to burn on Kickstarter, who have a use for such a thing, who don't already have access to one? This is a 10 GHz sampling scope, not a µCurrent...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 05:15:56 am by c4757p »
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alm

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2013, 05:29:26 am »
Both the µCurrent and this device are niche instruments. The µCurrent might be slightly more useful to the average user, but I expect the µCurrent to bring in much more money mainly because a) the people behind the sampling scope lack Dave's audience and reputation and b) because the µCurrent is much less risky. The µCurrent gold is an upgrade to an existing upgrade that's (unless Dave really screws up) guaranteed to be at least as good as the normal µCurrent, the sampling scope is a fairly ambitious product. I agree that it seems unlikely to meet its target unless they can convince a large audience that they need this product (similar to the µCurrent :P).
 

Offline Hypernova

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2013, 11:06:16 am »
No probes, well, not like he can include a 10GHz probe without adding a few more zeros to the price.

And why do I get the impression that he's getting his spec through equivalent time sampling?
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2013, 12:06:41 pm »
switch-mode supply being so close to the ADC,

what ADC?  :wtf:
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Offline tinhead

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2013, 12:09:06 pm »
And why do I get the impression that he's getting his spec through equivalent time sampling?

rtfm or at least the description of that project / that SAMPLING scope  :rant:
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Offline mrflibble

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2013, 12:35:11 pm »
And why do I get the impression that he's getting his spec through equivalent time sampling?

rtfm or at least the description of that project / that SAMPLING scope  :rant:
Which is another way of saying that "yes it's an equivalent time sampling scope" and "yes, you can read all about it in this here fine manual".

I couldn't find the sampling rate however. He mentions 12-bit ADC and using a microcontroller, and no mention of a discrete ADC.  :-//
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2013, 04:14:37 pm »
For $300 USD:

Thoughts?

here a closer look on the DS800, there was clearly room for improvement (from a PCB size point of view),
which he finally did with DS100.




his hardware works, the software is not modern or complex, but it does works as well.
I was thinking to buy one, however the price was bit high. These 300$ for DS100 are ok.


I couldn't find the sampling rate however. He mentions 12-bit ADC and using a microcontroller,
and no mention of a discrete ADC.  :-//

The "sampling head" on the analog input is made from an comparator (ADCMP582), the trigger input is using ADCMP567. The max. sample rate is defined by the delay line resolution (on DS800 that 1ps) and the 12bit vertical resolution. Therefore is the maximum sample rate, for DS800, ~ 83GS/s

How sampling scope works has been described e.g. here: http://www.tek.com/dl/85W_23777_0_0.pdf
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 03:22:21 am by tinhead »
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Offline tinhead

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2013, 04:26:12 pm »
I expect the µCurrent to bring in much more money mainly because a) the people behind the sampling scope lack Dave's audience and reputation and b) because the µCurrent is much less risky. The µCurrent gold is an upgrade to an existing upgrade that's (unless Dave really screws up) guaranteed to be at least as good as the normal µCurrent, the sampling scope is a fairly ambitious product.

the DS800 sampling scope exists since 4 years or so, there is no risk at all with the DS100. The developer seems to be however not good in marketing questions (the kickstarer page didn't looks very good, the 1GHz prototype picture is misplaced in my opinion, one ca think he is trying to build something where in principle he need some cash to produce enought units to lower costs).
The developer tried to make some deals with other distributors, e.g. http://www.ichaus.de/product/iC227
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Offline Marco

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2013, 04:57:57 pm »
The "sampling head" on the analog input is made from an comparator (ADCMP582)
That's simplified to the point of uselessness. A comparator doesn't make a sampling gate, it could be part of a diode bridge sampling gate but making one with 10 GHz bandwidth seems highly non trivial.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2013, 05:10:47 pm »
Well, there is almost no point in building an expensive USB oscilloscope, because LCDs, buttons and rotary knobs are cheap these days.
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Offline sync

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2013, 05:16:35 pm »
Well, there is almost no point in building an expensive USB oscilloscope, because LCDs, buttons and rotary knobs are cheap these days.
Then it would cost a lot more.
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2013, 05:39:45 pm »
That's simplified to the point of uselessness. A comparator doesn't make a sampling gate

:bullshit:
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Offline tinhead

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2013, 05:42:01 pm »
Well, there is almost no point in building an expensive USB oscilloscope, because LCDs,
buttons and rotary knobs are cheap these days.

the PC software is not complex, one can add an extra ARM board (with LCD), code simple UI and add some knobs,
then simply send the data via USB to the DS100 PCB - ready. Or even chepaer write an control app for smartphone.
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Offline Icarus

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2013, 05:49:51 pm »
From the manual "DS800 will work only with repetitive signals, since it requires multiple signal repetitions to
complete conversion
"
That's what happens people with no high-speed interface knowledge try to make sophisticated circuits
The osciloscopes are all about transient events.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2013, 06:16:23 pm »
That's simplified to the point of uselessness. A comparator doesn't make a sampling gate
bullshit
I have my doubts about whether this is really a sampling scope in the same way as the Tek PDF you linked ... it seems like it compares the signal and it's digital approximation to increment/decrement the approximation (the only other implementation of this concept I know of called it a stroboscopic converter).
 

alm

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2013, 06:23:26 pm »
That's what happens people with no high-speed interface knowledge try to make sophisticated circuits
Sampling scopes have been around for decades. Mostly because they can achieve bandwidths beyond what's feasible for real-time scopes. Just look at the line-up of the big scope manufacturers: Agilent, Lecroy and Tektronix. They all have sampling scopes for the high bandwidth applications. The fastest digital real-time scope for $300 will probably have about 200 MHz bandwidth at best. That's almost 2 orders of magnitude worse than what this sampling scope offers.

The osciloscopes are all about transient events.
So analog scopes are useless?
 

Offline Anks

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2013, 08:22:33 pm »
Was his guy was on the forum a few years ago and everyone shot him down (rightly or wrongly im not capable of answering) as I'm sure Ive seen the prototype before on this forum.
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2013, 10:15:51 pm »
Was his guy was on the forum a few years ago and everyone shot him down (rightly or wrongly im not capable of answering) as I'm sure Ive seen the prototype before on this forum.

no, definitely not on this forum, and honestly i haven't seens any DS800 prototype pictures before his current KS project.
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Offline Dave

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2013, 11:20:09 pm »
Quote
An affordable, 10 GHz Bandwidth, USB Sampling Oscilloscope

This project is about production funding of a version of already existing product. Here is the link to the predesesor manual. http://www.fastsampling.com/Products/DS800/DS800Manual14.pdf
Stopped reading right there.
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Offline Hypernova

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2013, 12:40:58 am »
And why do I get the impression that he's getting his spec through equivalent time sampling?

rtfm or at least the description of that project / that SAMPLING scope  :rant:

My bad, but still, that limits the market a great deal. If the thing could be used to look at say SATA or USB3 data there would be a lot more interest. As it is it's only good for checking signal quality. Granted you'll need LA's for those purposes but $300 just to check signal integrity is very limiting for a KS crowd.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2013, 01:16:38 am »
As it is it's only good for checking signal quality. Granted you'll need LA's for those purposes but $300 just to check signal integrity is very limiting for a KS crowd.

It compares well with http://www.picotech.com/picoscope9200.html which at £5995 is described as "at a price you can afford".

Maybe the KS crowd would find the base price of an Agilent DSA90804A 8GHz real time scope at $104,745 a bit limiting as well.

The campaign isn't very well presented but I would say he/they look competent to deliver. He/they is trying to raise $80k to fund a worthwhile size production batch. I hope he makes it. 
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2013, 01:40:39 am »
Was his guy was on the forum a few years ago and everyone shot him down (rightly or wrongly im not capable of answering) as I'm sure Ive seen the prototype before on this forum.

IIRC that was another one, looked much more advanced than this, and was real time.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: 10 GHz USB Oscilloscope
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2013, 01:42:07 am »
My bad, but still, that limits the market a great deal. If the thing could be used to look at say SATA or USB3 data there would be a lot more interest. As it is it's only good for checking signal quality. Granted you'll need LA's for those purposes but $300 just to check signal integrity is very limiting for a KS crowd.

The issue is that it's quite limited unless you have expensive high bandwidth high impedance probes to go with it.
 


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