270$ for a STM32F4 Discovery

[marshallh]

One of the biggest fails I see with newcomers trying to sell a product is pricing just above BOM cost. That's not how you do it.

How do you find the target price for a niche item? Find out how much people will pay for it! Ignore the BOM completely!
Fewer units sold at a higher price will beat out more units with a smaller margin. And for a small operation, fewer units means less support overhead.

Do you want to sell a well polished product? There ARE people that can appreciate that extra work and are willing to pay accordingly. But I've found they are not very vocal compared to the cheap-asses that want everything for free. No customer gives a shit about your BOM cost except the people that AREN'T going to buy it anyway!

One benefit of selling high is you only deal with the people that take your product seriously (Yes, there are edge cases of the rich assholes...) Again my experience has shown these people are very understanding, patient, and willing to work with you. They're your ideal customer.

Of course once you find this magic price you make sure the venture is worth doing with X profit margin. But generally it is.

[Legit-Design]

One of the biggest fails I see with newcomers trying to sell a product is pricing just above BOM cost. That's not how you do it.

How do you find the target price for a niche item? Find out how much people will pay for it! Ignore the BOM completely!
Fewer units sold at a higher price will beat out more units with a smaller margin. And for a small operation, fewer units means less support overhead.

Multiplying your BOM by 2.5, also gives a good starting point for pricing.  Atleast it gives a reason to actually do the product and get some profit out of it all.

[snoopy]

It's ridiculous:
http://hoxtonowl.com/hardware/assembly/

The development time doesn't justify that price. They use open source components like JUCE and GCC, the only thing that they need to develop is a schematic, a C++ framework and a bootloader. The C++ framework is basically already done, because it's nothing else than the CMSIS and a Main-File.

And yes, I could compete against that. I've done several Audio-DSP projects and VST development as well. Even my Spartan6 Audio Dev-Board wouldn't cost half of this.

then why don't you build a better mouse trap and sell it cheaper ?

Over on diyaudio http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/195791-open-source-dsp-xos.html they have spent the best part of over 400 posts talking about an open source DSP based audio crossover and guess what ? With all the talk about every DSP in existence including Cortex M3's and M4's etc still no one has come up with a complete solution of hardware and/or software !! There is an old saying that applies here. Money talks and bullshit walks !!

A challenge for you perhaps ?

regards
david

[Marco]

What's there to talk about? Someone needs to want to make it and support it ... no one who is able wants to.

That said, for that price you can simply buy an official (but also overpriced) adau1701 evaluation board.

[snoopy]

What's there to talk about? Someone needs to want to make it and support it ... no one who is able wants to.

That said, for that price you can simply buy an official (but also overpriced) adau1701 evaluation board.

The analog devices eval board is not open source nor is the sigma dsp software which only works on their boards.

Also they want better ADC's, DAC's, more channels, higher mips or flops, higher sampling rates, SPDIF and I2S inputs and outputs, long FIR filters, LCD display, external controls and switches etc. It's easy to talk about it but actually doing something and getting it together and working is usually a  big step

regards

[cloudscapes]

Well, they've just reached the goal for the audio codec, so that's less of a concern now.

Still, I did message them about RAM options, greater capacity and low cost (1megabit isn't really all that much, audio-wise). We'll see where that goes.

[cthree]

Reality check here guys, STM Discovery boards are cheap because they're subsidised by the sale of STM32 microcontrollers. You can't judge the price of any product that happens to use an STM32 just because ST sell a cheap development board to people wanting to learn and evaluate their processors.

What you have here is an independently designed product, which has to be profitable in its own right. Sale of one of these units does not lead to a design-in and subsequent sale of thousands of chips!

For sure, the box contains a processor, power supply and audio I/O that's compatible with guitar signals - which, I assure you, are a law unto themselves in terms of signal level, impedance and noise floor. The board has to be laid out, manufactured, assembled, programmed, installed in a custom designed, rugged enclosure, tested, CE / FCC certified, packaged and retailed in very small numbers. Then it has to be supported, and a few of them will have to be repaired or replaced. Add in the office overheads too - heat, light, power, administration, taxes, and the fact that engineering know-how is a valuable thing it its own right: people who have it have worked very hard to get it and have every right to be rewarded for their efforts.

There's absolutely nothing wrong at all with wanting to make "big money" as you put it, and just in case you're in doubt, virtually every product on the market is priced at what the seller believes the market will pay. There's no rule anywhere that says a product "must" or "should" be sold at a price dictated by the cost of the parts that went into it.

I didn't see a retail price, but if it's around the £250 mark then that feels about right. If the product is successful then they'll have a chance at a decent living - but they won't make "big money". If you think they might, and that they've not really done enough to earn it, start a competing business.

Indeed. The Ti SensorTag BTLE dongle costs less to buy from Ti than the cost to buy the temperature/humidity sensor that they use. They probably sell it for half the cost of the BOM.

[jmacqueen]

Everything that this project can do, has been done before and is freely available. To clarify that: I've nothing against offering such a project for crowdfunding, but then they have to use a realistic price point.

Everything this project can do has been done and is available for free? Really? These other projects come assembled and ready to plug in and use? these other projects come with documentation and technical/customer support?

I haven't seen any freely available projects that assemble and test themselves, program themselves, and come with a phone number for support if something isn't going right all for free.

Looks like to me they want money for a finished product with support. Not everyone has the knowledge or desire to to take some project listing off the net and source the parts and build it themselves, most folks don't even own a soldering iron. Most folks want a finished product they can just buy and use and call someone for support if they have issues. Building your own project from parts on the cheap is fine for those that want to do so and have the knowledge and tools to do so, but that's a very very small minority of people.

Why on earth would you be pissed off about someone taking the idea to a finished product that non makers and non electronics people can just plug in and use and putting it up for sale and making a decent profit from it? As long as people are happy to pay the price where is the issue?

I would imagine most of the folks buying these are guitar players that just want the finished box to plug in and use and are excited to be able to easily download and add new sound effects in the future from the web and have absolutely zero interest in building one from parts at all and most likely also zero ability to build a project from parts.

[jucole]

I think it's a great product! and I don't think the price is unreasonable if they are hoping to continue and grow the product.   I'd like one to play with but it's a bit pricey for me - but only because I have already invested in guitar fx. gear.

Guitar effects have completely changed over the years, today it's all about sound modelling,  which is probably 98% of the work in creating such a product;  one of the most sophisticated fx. modellers i've seen around today is the "Fractal FX" at $2199.95  http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-axe-fx-ii-preamp-fx-processor.php

[minibutmany]

One of the biggest advantages to this product:
It is designed for musicians.
Most musicians would have no idea how to set up a discovery board, mount it in a case with pots, jacks, etc., and then program it. If you want to make one of these pedals, go ahead, but almost nobody else who will be buying this would be able to.
Even if this product costs only $30(I'm guessing more around 40 - 60 with case work and labor), these guys need to make a living  and pay bills etc.
The iPad costs nowhere near $500 to manufacture, but nobody seems to question that.