Author Topic: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com  (Read 21509 times)

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Offline c9981

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A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« on: June 03, 2015, 01:01:18 pm »
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« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 08:26:36 pm by c9981 »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 01:13:18 pm »
I don't think the oscillator in this scope can meet the requirement of 50Gsps speed.

Input directly driving ADC? Then the impedance would be terrible!
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 01:28:13 pm »
You could at least try to use the right USB socket.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 01:38:29 pm »
What do you mean by ETS?
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Offline blueskull

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 01:38:46 pm »
Not talking about speed, I'm talking about jitter. For 50G ETS, you need a strobe signal at n*1/100M+m*1/50G, therefore the minimum resolution will be 20ps. Considering SNR, you will need a clock that has low enough jitter like somewhere around 200fs.

Let's do a more elaborated calculation. Suppose you want to sample 250MHz signal at 10 bit ENOB, then the RMS Nyquist jitter you need is below 508fs. At such high 250MHz bandwidth, jitter is higher than the 12k~20M jitter usually mentioned in datasheets. As a rule of thumb, you need to go for a clock that its RMS 12k~20M jitter is BELOW 200fs. If I were you, I would go for a sub 100fs oscillator, which is expensive like  hell. Therefore, achieving 250MHz with 10 bit ENOB is not quite feasible, IMHO.

If you can not even reach 10 bit ENOB, then do not promote your device to be "14 bit". ADC resolution is only a technical parameter, ENOB is the real resolution a user will get.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 01:42:00 pm »
"Input directly driving ADC? Then the impedance would be terrible!"   Which 50Gsps oscilloscope' Input directly driving ADC,    please list   ?

Sorry, I read the wrong lines. The logic analyzer is directly driven, but the scope is not.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 01:52:56 pm »
The communication type of the oscilloscope :

LAN:  RJ45 socket
WiFi:  wireless
USB: USB socket.

Please dont regard RJ45 socket as USB socket.

I think we all know wifi is wireless. The point was, you have two USB-A sockets. For a USB device.

Please don't regard us as dumb enough not to know the difference between an 8P8C and a USB socket.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 02:25:44 pm »
Input directly driving ADC? Then the impedance would be terrible!

High speed scopes usually have a 50ohm input impedance.

Traditional 1Mohm *10 probes are limited to, at best and with great care, a bandwidth of a few hundred MHz. "Low" impedance Z0 probes go to several GHz. See https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/scope-probe-reference-material/

The 50GS/s is more or less meaningless, since the front end bandwidth is a boring 50MHz!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 02:36:04 pm by tggzzz »
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Online Monkeh

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 02:28:13 pm »
The 2 usb socket:
one for Oscilloscope and Debug
Another for extend.
If the 2 USB socket are same type,the usb line can be general .
If the 2 USB socket are different type,user will feel clearly .

Anyone has good idea about this ?

http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb20_docs/usb_20_060115.zip
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 03:52:15 pm »
The 2 usb socket:
one for Oscilloscope and Debug
Another for extend.
If the 2 USB socket are same type,the usb line can be general .
If the 2 USB socket are different type,user will feel clearly .

Anyone has good idea about this ?

USB connectors are clearly defined.  Type A for host, type B for device.  You do not use a type A connector for a device.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 05:06:38 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange .A-A is often found in usb product.

Only in cheap, non-compliant garbage!

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If you want to get usb certify AND use USB LOGO,Maybe device must be USB-A OR USB-B.

If you want to do it properly and allow people to use normal cables, you must use the correct connector.
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 05:10:41 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange
Yes, it is.

A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 05:12:22 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange
Yes, it is.

A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

It is sadly quite common for nasty crap from China to use them. I guess it's cheaper somehow.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 05:30:35 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange
Yes, it is.

A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

It is sadly quite common for nasty crap from China to use them. I guess it's cheaper somehow.
"nasty crap from " I feel you should stop to use this no polite words.we discuss technology.I think we should friendly.If you feel not good,pls visit other topic.

To usb A-B or A-A is not difficult, To Change A-B is not complex thing.Maybe at last usb-b will be used.

My sincere apologies. Is 'low quality goods of dubious value' more to your liking?

Allow me to attempt to clarify: There is no such thing as USB A-A. It is not USB. It cannot be, for it does not comply with the standards which define USB.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 05:33:39 pm »
I don't think the oscillator in this scope can meet the requirement of 50Gsps speed.

It's BNC, it's clearly just bullshit which hurts them more than helps, especially here ...

This isn't a high bandwidth sampling scope with some DIY sampling gate or high speed comparator.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2015, 05:54:18 pm »
About oscillator with 200fs jitter:

Oscillator with 200fs jitter is not very high end.
If I tell you Oscillator with 200fs jitter is high end and very expensive,the oscillator manufacture will laugh at us from morning to night.

Most crystal oscillators can go below 300fs easily, but for long term guarantee reasons, most reputable brands will only guarantee operation at sub 1ps. If you want to have a <0.3ps oscillator, it is gonna be a little bit expensive, say 5 bucks from digikey. For even lower, such as <0.2ps, it gets expensive rapidly.

The only 2 ways to go below 0.1ps is either using a very high power consumption (heavily biased) PLL, or to use a high quality TCXO or OCXO, either is expensive.

Also, the precision delay generator generating 50G ETS strobe must be low jitter, and obtaining such devices is hard and $ consuming. Remember, only if the entire clock chain reaches 200fs can you get enough ENOB.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2015, 06:01:57 pm »
Flexible funding campaign for some piece of Chinese junk. Just pictures of PCBs and software as separate perks, that's rich.

If you really need a PC-based scope, just get a PicoScope.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2015, 06:16:56 pm »
This could be an interesting product. but i have a couple of technical questions.

64 samples to 4K of memory. That's very small... i'd like to see a few megs of memory
pretrigger/posttrigger ?

you have an 8 bit a/d convertor. how do you make 14 bits out of that ? or is there a misunderstanding somewhere.
input frequency for the logic analyser 250Mhz. but the sample clock is 100Mhz ?

0..5 volt input levels on the logic analyzer. what is the trigger level of the channels ? is it programmable ? ( i work on 1.2 and 1.8 volt logic. )

screen refresh rate ? how many waveforms a second ? i don't want a machine that takes a second to refresh its screen.
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Offline Bud

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2015, 06:44:54 pm »
I' d think refresh rate and speed in general will be limited by html5 performance.

And by the way, html based software would be the last thing i would be willing to use for test gear.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2015, 06:47:49 pm »
I' d think refresh rate and speed in general will be limited by html5 performance.

And by the way, html based software would be the last thing i would be willing to use for test gear.

Websockets are bidirectional TCP/IP I don't see any problem with that part at all.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2015, 07:22:37 pm »
pretrigger and posttrigger  can almost be full scale.maybe it is shorter few sampls than full scale.
good. but i'd like to see deep memory. 4k samples is nothing. a 54620 could do that 30 years ago...

Quote
you have an 8 bit a/d convertor. how do you make 14 bits out of that ? or is there a misunderstanding somewhere.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 bit a/d convertor and 14 bits  D/A.not the same thing.
ah, i see. what is the dac used for on the y scale ? are you using it to apply a dc offset to the input before digitizing ?

Quote
input frequency for the logic analyser 250Mhz. but the sample clock is 100Mhz ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Max. input frequency is 250Mhz. the real time sample clock is 100Mhz .this is  not  contradiction.
ehh , you cant digitize a 250MHz signal with a 100MHz clock... especially not for a logic analyser. or are you combining input channels and interleaving them ?

also, i see a lot of these logic analyser thingies that use simply wires with grabbers at the end. no signal termination , no protection no shielded signals. kinda hard to convince me you can reliably trap signals over 100MHz.

Quote
0..5 volt input levels on the logic analyzer. what is the trigger level of the channels ? is it programmable ? ( i work on 1.2 and 1.8 volt logic. )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you say:0V - 5V. it is not programmable.   the standard is 3.3V.Maybe the logic analyzer not fit you.

ok so you use the FPGA I/O voltage . does the FPGA have embedded schmitt triggers at its input ? or do we rely on 3.3 V CMOS levels.  if you use a dedicated i/o bank of the FPGA and you feed that from a programmable voltage regulator you could actually program the input levels.

Quote
screen refresh rate ? how many waveforms a second ? i don't want a machine that takes a second to refresh its screen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The screen refresh rate  is depend on the smart device's speed and config. the max.  10fps to 100+fps is normal.

what is the dead time ? does the system keep capturing or is it frozen while refreshing the screen ?
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Offline janoc

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2015, 08:18:03 pm »
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

I did - the PQ Labs touch screen overlays use that, along with a special A-A cable. It doesn't make it any less retarded, though.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2015, 08:26:07 pm »
A html page can control hardware ,this is a Highlight of html5scope,I think.
Before you design a product,maybe you can program a html page and use html5scope to create the prototype at first.

No offense, but the last thing I want to do with a scope is to do web programming on it. People buy oscilloscopes to debug hardware, not to tinker with them. If this is the only advantage/selling point, then this is a toy and not a serious instrument. If a custom presentation of the measured data is needed, then a far more useful option is to be able to export the measurements in some sensible format so that they can be processed on a computer - e.g. in Matlab, Excel, what have you. Nobody is going to develop web apps for your scope, sorry.



 

Online Monkeh

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2015, 08:39:22 pm »
You also can use html5scope as the CPU board to make a wifi vehicle with camara.


Why the **** would I buy a $300 oscilloscope to do that?
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2015, 08:56:42 pm »
You also can use html5scope as the CPU board to make a wifi vehicle with camara.


Why the **** would I buy a $300 oscilloscope to do that?

You are right.
It appears this is not a good highlight/selling point.But Why People spend their money to buy Html5scope ? I need to find the answer.

You need to ask yourself why you are making it?

To convince people buying a scope, you need to show how good your front end is, how good your ADC subsystem is, and how good is your DSP is.

Other functions are just desserts on a cake, and the acquisition and processing is the cake itself.

Otherwise, the cake would be a lie.
 


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