Author Topic: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com  (Read 21507 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline c9981

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« on: June 03, 2015, 01:01:18 pm »
Deleted !
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 08:26:36 pm by c9981 »
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13652
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 01:13:18 pm »
I don't think the oscillator in this scope can meet the requirement of 50Gsps speed.

Input directly driving ADC? Then the impedance would be terrible!
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 01:28:13 pm »
You could at least try to use the right USB socket.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: no
  • Cut me some slack, I'm a biochemist!
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 01:38:29 pm »
What do you mean by ETS?
I collect [corporate] mugs.
MTBF ~ 700.000 h
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13652
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 01:38:46 pm »
Not talking about speed, I'm talking about jitter. For 50G ETS, you need a strobe signal at n*1/100M+m*1/50G, therefore the minimum resolution will be 20ps. Considering SNR, you will need a clock that has low enough jitter like somewhere around 200fs.

Let's do a more elaborated calculation. Suppose you want to sample 250MHz signal at 10 bit ENOB, then the RMS Nyquist jitter you need is below 508fs. At such high 250MHz bandwidth, jitter is higher than the 12k~20M jitter usually mentioned in datasheets. As a rule of thumb, you need to go for a clock that its RMS 12k~20M jitter is BELOW 200fs. If I were you, I would go for a sub 100fs oscillator, which is expensive like  hell. Therefore, achieving 250MHz with 10 bit ENOB is not quite feasible, IMHO.

If you can not even reach 10 bit ENOB, then do not promote your device to be "14 bit". ADC resolution is only a technical parameter, ENOB is the real resolution a user will get.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13652
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 01:42:00 pm »
"Input directly driving ADC? Then the impedance would be terrible!"   Which 50Gsps oscilloscope' Input directly driving ADC,    please list   ?

Sorry, I read the wrong lines. The logic analyzer is directly driven, but the scope is not.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 01:52:56 pm »
The communication type of the oscilloscope :

LAN:  RJ45 socket
WiFi:  wireless
USB: USB socket.

Please dont regard RJ45 socket as USB socket.

I think we all know wifi is wireless. The point was, you have two USB-A sockets. For a USB device.

Please don't regard us as dumb enough not to know the difference between an 8P8C and a USB socket.
 

Online tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11732
  • Country: gb
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 02:25:44 pm »
Input directly driving ADC? Then the impedance would be terrible!

High speed scopes usually have a 50ohm input impedance.

Traditional 1Mohm *10 probes are limited to, at best and with great care, a bandwidth of a few hundred MHz. "Low" impedance Z0 probes go to several GHz. See https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/scope-probe-reference-material/

The 50GS/s is more or less meaningless, since the front end bandwidth is a boring 50MHz!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 02:36:04 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 02:28:13 pm »
The 2 usb socket:
one for Oscilloscope and Debug
Another for extend.
If the 2 USB socket are same type,the usb line can be general .
If the 2 USB socket are different type,user will feel clearly .

Anyone has good idea about this ?

http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb20_docs/usb_20_060115.zip
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1455
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 03:52:15 pm »
The 2 usb socket:
one for Oscilloscope and Debug
Another for extend.
If the 2 USB socket are same type,the usb line can be general .
If the 2 USB socket are different type,user will feel clearly .

Anyone has good idea about this ?

USB connectors are clearly defined.  Type A for host, type B for device.  You do not use a type A connector for a device.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 05:06:38 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange .A-A is often found in usb product.

Only in cheap, non-compliant garbage!

Quote
If you want to get usb certify AND use USB LOGO,Maybe device must be USB-A OR USB-B.

If you want to do it properly and allow people to use normal cables, you must use the correct connector.
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1455
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 05:10:41 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange
Yes, it is.

A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 05:12:22 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange
Yes, it is.

A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

It is sadly quite common for nasty crap from China to use them. I guess it's cheaper somehow.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 05:30:35 pm »
About USB socket,We must know usb A-A IS NOT strange
Yes, it is.

A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

It is sadly quite common for nasty crap from China to use them. I guess it's cheaper somehow.
"nasty crap from " I feel you should stop to use this no polite words.we discuss technology.I think we should friendly.If you feel not good,pls visit other topic.

To usb A-B or A-A is not difficult, To Change A-B is not complex thing.Maybe at last usb-b will be used.

My sincere apologies. Is 'low quality goods of dubious value' more to your liking?

Allow me to attempt to clarify: There is no such thing as USB A-A. It is not USB. It cannot be, for it does not comply with the standards which define USB.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4752
  • Country: nl
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 05:33:39 pm »
I don't think the oscillator in this scope can meet the requirement of 50Gsps speed.

It's BNC, it's clearly just bullshit which hurts them more than helps, especially here ...

This isn't a high bandwidth sampling scope with some DIY sampling gate or high speed comparator.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13652
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2015, 05:54:18 pm »
About oscillator with 200fs jitter:

Oscillator with 200fs jitter is not very high end.
If I tell you Oscillator with 200fs jitter is high end and very expensive,the oscillator manufacture will laugh at us from morning to night.

Most crystal oscillators can go below 300fs easily, but for long term guarantee reasons, most reputable brands will only guarantee operation at sub 1ps. If you want to have a <0.3ps oscillator, it is gonna be a little bit expensive, say 5 bucks from digikey. For even lower, such as <0.2ps, it gets expensive rapidly.

The only 2 ways to go below 0.1ps is either using a very high power consumption (heavily biased) PLL, or to use a high quality TCXO or OCXO, either is expensive.

Also, the precision delay generator generating 50G ETS strobe must be low jitter, and obtaining such devices is hard and $ consuming. Remember, only if the entire clock chain reaches 200fs can you get enough ENOB.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2015, 06:01:57 pm »
Flexible funding campaign for some piece of Chinese junk. Just pictures of PCBs and software as separate perks, that's rich.

If you really need a PC-based scope, just get a PicoScope.
Alex
 

Online free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7403
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2015, 06:16:56 pm »
This could be an interesting product. but i have a couple of technical questions.

64 samples to 4K of memory. That's very small... i'd like to see a few megs of memory
pretrigger/posttrigger ?

you have an 8 bit a/d convertor. how do you make 14 bits out of that ? or is there a misunderstanding somewhere.
input frequency for the logic analyser 250Mhz. but the sample clock is 100Mhz ?

0..5 volt input levels on the logic analyzer. what is the trigger level of the channels ? is it programmable ? ( i work on 1.2 and 1.8 volt logic. )

screen refresh rate ? how many waveforms a second ? i don't want a machine that takes a second to refresh its screen.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4135
  • Country: ca
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2015, 06:44:54 pm »
I' d think refresh rate and speed in general will be limited by html5 performance.

And by the way, html based software would be the last thing i would be willing to use for test gear.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5549
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2015, 06:47:49 pm »
I' d think refresh rate and speed in general will be limited by html5 performance.

And by the way, html based software would be the last thing i would be willing to use for test gear.

Websockets are bidirectional TCP/IP I don't see any problem with that part at all.
 

Online free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7403
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2015, 07:22:37 pm »
pretrigger and posttrigger  can almost be full scale.maybe it is shorter few sampls than full scale.
good. but i'd like to see deep memory. 4k samples is nothing. a 54620 could do that 30 years ago...

Quote
you have an 8 bit a/d convertor. how do you make 14 bits out of that ? or is there a misunderstanding somewhere.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 bit a/d convertor and 14 bits  D/A.not the same thing.
ah, i see. what is the dac used for on the y scale ? are you using it to apply a dc offset to the input before digitizing ?

Quote
input frequency for the logic analyser 250Mhz. but the sample clock is 100Mhz ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Max. input frequency is 250Mhz. the real time sample clock is 100Mhz .this is  not  contradiction.
ehh , you cant digitize a 250MHz signal with a 100MHz clock... especially not for a logic analyser. or are you combining input channels and interleaving them ?

also, i see a lot of these logic analyser thingies that use simply wires with grabbers at the end. no signal termination , no protection no shielded signals. kinda hard to convince me you can reliably trap signals over 100MHz.

Quote
0..5 volt input levels on the logic analyzer. what is the trigger level of the channels ? is it programmable ? ( i work on 1.2 and 1.8 volt logic. )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you say:0V - 5V. it is not programmable.   the standard is 3.3V.Maybe the logic analyzer not fit you.

ok so you use the FPGA I/O voltage . does the FPGA have embedded schmitt triggers at its input ? or do we rely on 3.3 V CMOS levels.  if you use a dedicated i/o bank of the FPGA and you feed that from a programmable voltage regulator you could actually program the input levels.

Quote
screen refresh rate ? how many waveforms a second ? i don't want a machine that takes a second to refresh its screen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The screen refresh rate  is depend on the smart device's speed and config. the max.  10fps to 100+fps is normal.

what is the dead time ? does the system keep capturing or is it frozen while refreshing the screen ?
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3105
  • Country: fr
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2015, 08:18:03 pm »
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

I did - the PQ Labs touch screen overlays use that, along with a special A-A cable. It doesn't make it any less retarded, though.
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3105
  • Country: fr
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2015, 08:26:07 pm »
A html page can control hardware ,this is a Highlight of html5scope,I think.
Before you design a product,maybe you can program a html page and use html5scope to create the prototype at first.

No offense, but the last thing I want to do with a scope is to do web programming on it. People buy oscilloscopes to debug hardware, not to tinker with them. If this is the only advantage/selling point, then this is a toy and not a serious instrument. If a custom presentation of the measured data is needed, then a far more useful option is to be able to export the measurements in some sensible format so that they can be processed on a computer - e.g. in Matlab, Excel, what have you. Nobody is going to develop web apps for your scope, sorry.



 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2015, 08:39:22 pm »
You also can use html5scope as the CPU board to make a wifi vehicle with camara.


Why the **** would I buy a $300 oscilloscope to do that?
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13652
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2015, 08:56:42 pm »
You also can use html5scope as the CPU board to make a wifi vehicle with camara.


Why the **** would I buy a $300 oscilloscope to do that?

You are right.
It appears this is not a good highlight/selling point.But Why People spend their money to buy Html5scope ? I need to find the answer.

You need to ask yourself why you are making it?

To convince people buying a scope, you need to show how good your front end is, how good your ADC subsystem is, and how good is your DSP is.

Other functions are just desserts on a cake, and the acquisition and processing is the cake itself.

Otherwise, the cake would be a lie.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2015, 09:15:44 pm »
I can take chips from famous companies too, it does not mean I will arrive at a design that has claimed performance. So far there is nothing to confirm any of your claims about quality of the product.

Show us some captured traces under different conditions and all this kind of stuff.

But again, at that price, it is not going to happen. You can buy a real scope for $300 designed by people, who use correct USB connectors, and work with it, instead of doing web-design.
Alex
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2015, 09:23:29 pm »
Traditional scope is piece of hardware that sits on my desk. It can optionally  connect to PC.

Simply being new, does not make it good or useful.
Alex
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 13652
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2015, 09:23:59 pm »
How would you compete Analog Discovery which sells for 99 bucks for US students, and 150 for international students?

They are designed by Digilent with Analog and Xilinx's AFEs' help, and is supported worldwide.

They use ADI 14 bit ADC, ADI amplifiers and ADI DAC, they have on board full functional AWG and logic analyzer as well as pattern generator.

They have a more than adequate software that supports secondary development.

Finally, I can put my Analog Discovery in my pockets and hook it up to my tablet without carrying a bag or a case.

If you want to compete, do a business analysis before pouring your keen on a product doomed to fail. It is not everyone can make money from niche market.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2015, 09:32:26 pm »
Yes, and you have not shown us why this is good.

Working on a tablet? I have probes in my hands when I use the scope, there is no way for me to hold the tablet. And if I put down the tabled, how it would be different from a real scope?

What's wrong with wired connectivity? I'm not going anywhere from my scope.
Alex
 

Offline c4757p

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7805
  • Country: us
  • adieu
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2015, 09:37:35 pm »
I don't understand what's so big about it using HTML 5. That's a tool you use to make it, not something that should affect how we use it...

I gather there's a bit of a language barrier here preventing you from explaining why we should want this, but yeah... I don't know why I would want this.

It sounds like someone was looking for a problem to solve using HTML 5 and said "I know! I'll make an oscilloscope!", completely forgetting that the latter part of the idea is the hard part.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 09:40:03 pm by c4757p »
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Online free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7403
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2015, 09:42:36 pm »
i think this idea is usefull a you can connect a frontend wirelessly to a visualisation system without being restricted by an operating system ( the endless windows / limux / mac discussion) and having GALVANIC ISOLATION

any device that has a browser supporting html 5 can be used. you coudl even use a cheap chromebook or android tablet.

the key for me is the galvanic isolation as it runs over wifi.

but , before we get there i also want to see some hardware performance.
a scope is foremost defined by
- bandwidth
- sampling speed
- sampling accuracy ( vertical bit depth )
- memory depth
- blind time
- trigger capabilities

logic analyser
- memory depth
- sampling speed
- pattern and protocol triggering


so far we know very little about the lump of hardware there.


Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Online tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11732
  • Country: gb
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2015, 09:43:57 pm »
Traditional scope is piece of hardware that sits on my desk. It can optionally  connect to PC.

Simply being new, does not make it good or useful.

We can think html5scope = usb oscilloscope + wifi+ html5

Those are features. Nobody cares about features. People care about benefits, so tell us how we would benefit from those features. Note: that implies a comparison with other ways we can achieve our objectives.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2015, 09:47:24 pm »
Maybe someone sometimes like to Work on a tablet.
Maybe someone like Wifi and USB oscilloscope.
May be, or may be not. That's called market research, and you do it before designing a product. Right now you have designed a product and asking us to help you with selling it to a non-existing audience.

Html5scope is only a product,no the Great ambition to replace of other oscilloscope. no Great ambition to occupy all the market or most of the market.
And that's shows.
Alex
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2015, 10:28:22 pm »
If some one has contributed,But the campaign is unsuccessful at the end.
How to use the money ?
You don't. That's the point. Crowd funding is designed (ideally) so you could use the economy of scale, it is not a shop or preorder system.

If you can make single quantities for $300 already, why not just put a "buy" button on your site and don't make people wait 30 days?
Alex
 

Offline Bassman59

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1428
  • Country: us
  • Yes, I do this for a living
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2015, 10:34:45 pm »
A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

The local computer/electronics shop carries A-A cables (not the extension type), and I can't imagine that they've ever sold any, as there is literally no reason for the cables to exist. Next time I am in, I will ask if any ever sold.
 

Offline c4757p

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7805
  • Country: us
  • adieu
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2015, 10:38:23 pm »
Traditional scope is piece of hardware that sits on my desk. It can optionally  connect to PC.

Simply being new, does not make it good or useful.

We can think html5scope = usb oscilloscope + wifi+ html5

Those are features. Nobody cares about features. People care about benefits, so tell us how we would benefit from those features. Note: that implies a comparison with other ways we can achieve our objectives.

Dunno, that can lead to some terribly inscrutable kickfartery business crap sometimes. MumbleMumble will revolutionize your mumble by leveraging mumble to obfuscate mumbled mumbles! With MumbleMumble you can mumble your mumble while you mumble your mumble!

Yeah, but what is it? Half of these you can't even tell what the product is because they think it's so unique as to be practically ineffable. At least this dude is direct in stating what it is. I'll take that any day over a salesman who tries to tell me all about how it'll change my life.

I still don't want the product, but at least now I know that I don't want it...

(and f_e is right, it has potential. I can see quite a few people being interested in it if it were a bit more polished.)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 10:40:01 pm by c4757p »
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline Mr.B

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1085
  • Country: nz
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2015, 10:43:56 pm »
A-A is often found in usb product.
No, it's not.  I have never seen a device that is supposed to use an A-A cable.  The mere existence of these cables is a mystery to me.  I have never seen one in person, and I can not think of any application that should use one.

The local computer/electronics shop carries A-A cables (not the extension type), and I can't imagine that they've ever sold any, as there is literally no reason for the cables to exist. Next time I am in, I will ask if any ever sold.

I have encountered devices with this requirement once.
A couple of years ago we had a bunch of Huawei cellular desk phones that required USB A-A cable to flash firmware.
It was so painful to try to source a cable that I ended up making my own.
The firmware was so buggy we binned all of them in the end.
Huawei... Made in China...
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5549
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2015, 10:51:53 pm »
Myself I think html 5 is an interesting prospect, although it depends what kind of processor drives it since it would be essentially a web server. Maybe a Cyclone/SoC from Altera might be up to the task but then you would be able to drive the screen directly.

The problems I see with this device are:

1) poor specs to make it competitive at that price.
2) flexible funding, because if you don't reach your goal you might decide not to refund the money. But I guess backers can pull the funds until the last minute, not sure since I never did back an indigogo project.

 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2015, 11:12:22 pm »
If regular campaign is not successful IGG will not charge any money in a first place, so you won't have to refund anything.
Alex
 

Online tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11732
  • Country: gb
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2015, 11:42:07 pm »
Traditional scope is piece of hardware that sits on my desk. It can optionally  connect to PC.

Simply being new, does not make it good or useful.

We can think html5scope = usb oscilloscope + wifi+ html5

Those are features. Nobody cares about features. People care about benefits, so tell us how we would benefit from those features. Note: that implies a comparison with other ways we can achieve our objectives.

Dunno, that can lead to some terribly inscrutable kickfartery business crap sometimes. MumbleMumble will revolutionize your mumble by leveraging mumble to obfuscate mumbled mumbles! With MumbleMumble you can mumble your mumble while you mumble your mumble!

Easily detected... All you have to do is invert the statement; if it is ridiculous then the original statement was content-free motherhood and apple pie.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4135
  • Country: ca
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2015, 04:24:36 am »
Html5scope has WiFi/Lan/USB interface and it can works on smart phone,tablet and PC.
It is a new thing.

My friend, have you ever done troubleshooting electronics on the bench using a scope? No one gives shit for wifi and stuff when spending hours troubleshooting or prototyping. You really think people will be sitting with their phones and poking fingers in damn phone screen? Leave tablets and phones to teenagers, focus on usability of your product on the bench, this is where this type of equipment is used the most.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Galenbo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1473
  • Country: be
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2015, 07:39:31 am »
Maybe someone sometimes like to Work on a tablet.

Maybe someone like Wifi and USB oscilloscope.

Html5scope is only a product,no the Great ambition to replace of other oscilloscope. no Great ambition to occupy all the market or most of the market.

Why are you doing that indiegogo thing? It's for loosing time and money to scam artists.
Stop making your product ridiculous by scamming money for digital pictures or network cables.

I saw your video, it looks like your product is working.
Send it to someone for a review, the guy has to be like this:

-  is a professional daily/weekly scope user.
-  knows absolutely nothing about your product, does not know you well, gets only product+manual, no explanation or extra info.
-  speeks the same language as the customers you want.

Let him test it, let him make remarks, recommendations, comparisons.
Back tot the table to do some adjustments, and now look for a distributor/partner.

If you do not want a distributor/partner, sell it yourself. Make a site, Ebay, Aliexpress, Youtube movies, test reports, go.

If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline fubar.gr

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
  • Country: gr
    • Fubar.gr
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2015, 11:02:40 am »
I played around with the demo found here: http://www.html5scope.com/1/

But how do I set the trigger voltage level?

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2015, 03:40:50 pm »
I had the same problem. I think the trigger is the arrow on the right, but it simply does not work.

And the UI is like a being 747 console. It mist be simplified.
Alex
 

Online tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11732
  • Country: gb
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2015, 04:51:24 pm »
And the UI is like a being 747 console. It mist be simplified.

And get the units right! (KHz, uS)

Makes me think, however unjustly, that the designer has more knowledge and interest in web technologies than digitisers.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3105
  • Country: fr
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2015, 07:59:19 pm »
I tried to play with the demo too, but this feels to me like an output from a programmer that has never seen or used a real scope.

  • The triggers don't work
  • How does one set a trigger on the digital signal?
  • Why only dot mode? At least I haven't found the line mode display which is way more common
  • Button labels - jeeze, this really requires imagination to find that you must press "Knob" to get both A and B channel levels and the time base settings
  • Why does longer time base turn my screen into a narrow slice instead of showing me more of the signal?
  • What are those T50, T80, etc. buttons for?
  • How do cursors work? I can see them moving around, but nothing is being measured

Too many issues to list, really.

If you want to see how a usable (not great, but usable) PC scope interface should look like, download the demo of the Bitscope software. And for logic analyzers have a look at the Saleae software (also a free download with a demo mode).

This thing is pretty much useless, IMO, even if the hardware was great.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2015, 03:52:08 pm »
So you've created your own forum where you ask yourself questions instead of just answering here..
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2015, 04:01:05 pm »
Except that there is absolutely no real interest for this thing. And who wants to spend time and expose email address to some forum with 1 post?
Alex
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2015, 04:02:37 pm »
So you've created your own forum where you ask yourself questions instead of just answering here..

You have not a homepage yet?

I'm sorry? What does whether or not I have a website have to do with anything?
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2015, 04:15:07 pm »
To tell other people a forum ,is there any wrong / mistake ? 
Actually, yes, there is. You are starting to turn this topic into an ad for your site. And the problem here is that no one is interested in a product in a first place. And by placing your answers there, you are basically cutting off any future conversation. It is very naive to think that anyone will want to join that forum.

Ad hominem attacks on people here don't help either.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 04:17:02 pm by ataradov »
Alex
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6393
  • Country: gb
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2015, 04:26:48 pm »
So you've created your own forum where you ask yourself questions instead of just answering here..

You have not a homepage yet?

I'm sorry? What does whether or not I have a website have to do with anything?
To tell other people a forum ,is there any wrong / mistake ?

You decided to create a forum and post there to answer questions asked here. The only reason I can see to do that is to control the discussion. Which normally means to censor anyone who isn't amazingly positive.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2015, 04:37:51 pm »
Wow. You are now just spamming us? Nice approach. This is a really fun thread. I'm sticking here just to observe how cultural differences can absolutely kill any product. And this one did not have much going for it in a first place.

PS: I see you also registered two different users to ask and answer questions. Do you think that people who buy test equipment are dumb?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 04:39:53 pm by ataradov »
Alex
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2015, 04:43:54 pm »
You already showed us that you can't have an open conversion. Monkeh is right, you want to control conversation, and that's just not going to happen.
Alex
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5549
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2015, 04:58:45 pm »
50 Mhz with 100Msps? There is no way!

Also it's very overpriced since people can get this for way less:
http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=ANALOG-DISCOVERY

Video review from Dave:


 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3105
  • Country: fr
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2015, 08:35:25 pm »
http://www.html5scope.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=2

Sooo, I am supposed to go to an obscure forum to actually discover how to use the UI of your device. Nice touch! That will certainly sell like hot cakes |O

I suggest that you google terms like "UI discoverability" and "affordances". And also try to actually use a real scope first - engineers are used to a certain mental workflow when using test instruments. You can certainly label timebase "Knob" and make it look like a Breitling watch, it will work - at least in the technical sense.

However, it is not intuitive and it will be difficult and frustrating to use, especially for a control that is used very often. No scope has a combined timebase and input level control because those things are conceptually completely different. And it is certainly not labeled "Knob". That's like calling a control "Button" - that label is supposed to to be informative, not only a decoration to fill the empty space!



Even then you didn't really answer the questions, apart perhaps the meaning of the T buttons.

 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2015, 10:18:20 pm »
1.You are right : a button  labeled "Knob" is not fit  its function.Using this label is really for filling the empty space!   But which word is best ? or delete the button?
Why not make a drop down menu? Rotating knobs are easy to use in real life, not so much in virtual equipment.

2.if you run that app on PC,there is a item "knob mode select" in the menu " Tools|system opt ",you can try another knob mode.Maybe the "independent mode" more  fit PC big screen.
What do you mean "app on PC"? Is not it all HTML5 and should be the same on all platforms?
Alex
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2015, 10:31:26 pm »
Please use proper quoting.

So the entire idea of HTML5 falls apart. You now expect us to write iOS software as well?
Alex
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2015, 12:59:06 am »
Yeah, but is not the whole selling point of this thing is interface customizable through HTML5? And you loose that once you go to a fixed app.
Alex
 

Offline Bassman59

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1428
  • Country: us
  • Yes, I do this for a living
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2015, 11:17:48 pm »
Please use proper quoting.

So the entire idea of HTML5 falls apart. You now expect us to write iOS software as well?

Now the app can run on IOS.you can try.

Your app is in the App Store?
 

Online free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7403
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2015, 12:13:21 am »
what is wrong with all you people ?

is it so hard to understand that this things GUI is a html5 based webpage ? you dont need no stinking apps.
open a web browser , point to the modules ip address and done. the box serves the code. it detects what browser is connecting and reformats the gui accordingly. so irrespective if you open the connection from an android ios windows or linux browser : you get served a gui that is appropriate for your device.

he exposes an api through the web link so you can write your own post processing stuff by simply opening a websocket.

that's all.

there's been several times the call for galvanically isolated scopes. well, this is one. it doesnt get more galvanically isolated than through a wifi link.

stop bitching about this thing. i think it is a very good first attempt. the technical specs are a bit low but that may get fixed in rev 2.0
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2015, 03:14:43 am »
is it so hard to understand that this things GUI is a html5 based webpage ? you dont need no stinking apps.
And that's where you are wrong. Your idea is correct way of doing things, but what is being pitched here does not reformat, hence the need for apps. Or at least that's the way I'm reading OPs replies.

there's been several times the call for galvanically isolated scopes. well, this is one. it doesnt get more galvanically isolated than through a wifi link.
For $300 you are better off buying one of the branded scopemeters and power them from the battery. They will have better parameters as well.
Alex
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5549
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2015, 05:32:48 am »
And that's is why no one is funding it.

Flexible funding doesn't bring a good feeling for people to promote a product because they might get nothing in return if the goal is not reached.

I get why you retracted your previous promise but that's why no one is backing up your project because they don't want the risk on them as you don't want the risk on you.

 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2361
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2015, 06:34:22 am »
Hilarious thread. Culture clash and language barrier at its best  :-DD

I really like how c9981 invents fake specs out of his ass (sampling, bandwidth), shitty chinese product style, on the spot and is immediately shocked people complain about it :) Its perfectly reasonable to LIE IN YOUR FACE in china, so poor c9981 doesnt understand what is happening :)

/subscribed  :popcorn:
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: no
  • Cut me some slack, I'm a biochemist!
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2015, 06:55:57 am »
Give the guy a break! I know you all have bad prejudices towards China, but there's no excuse for being so blatant about it. For what I can see it's just a hobbyist trying to develop a product, if it's not for you it's just not for you.
I collect [corporate] mugs.
MTBF ~ 700.000 h
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2015, 06:57:59 am »
Well, most of the criticism was justified. Use of improper connectors is not a good idea even in one-off device, much less in something you plan to manufacture and sell.
Alex
 

Offline Stonent

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3824
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2015, 07:33:57 am »
I think we all know wifi is wireless. The point was, you have two USB-A sockets. For a USB device.
Please don't regard us as dumb enough not to know the difference between an 8P8C and a USB socket.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you are right.
It is not good that both of the 2 USB socket are  same type.


The 2 usb socket:
one for Oscilloscope and Debug
Another for extend.
If the 2 USB socket are same type,the usb line can be general .
If the 2 USB socket are different type,user will feel clearly .

Anyone has good idea about this ?

Your native language, what is, hmm?  It seems not to be english.  In fact, very confusing, is it.  Yeesssssss.
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3105
  • Country: fr
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2015, 03:11:57 pm »
Your native language, what is, hmm?  It seems not to be english.  In fact, very confusing, is it.  Yeesssssss.

I wonder how good is your Mandarin (or any foreign language) when you are mocking his language skills. I think his English is decent enough to get him understood, perhaps with a bit of effort here and there. This is not a school where you get marked down for mistakes in grammar.

A bit of tolerance, please.

@c9981 It would be really helpful if you could reply bellow the quoted text and not in the middle of it - that makes your replies very hard to read.

 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3105
  • Country: fr
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2015, 05:30:46 pm »
I am sure this has been said before, but a "scope" with 100MHz real time sampling is pretty much a toy. If you want to see anything else but a sine wave, you will be glad to get an usable bandwidth above 10MHz. 50MHz with 2 samples per period is not very useful apart from seeing whether or not there is some sort of signal present.

The deal with equivalent sampling I wouldn't even dare to mention - sure, you can "cheat" like that, but in this context it just makes a poor product look even worse than it is, because it makes an impression that you are trying to artificially prop up the poor specs in your marketing materials with something that only confuses the unwary and is useless in practice on this type of scope.

BTW, that Picoscope you are citing has a 1GHz realtime sampling rate and is a very different category product.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6493
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2015, 07:37:30 pm »
I think you are misunderstanding what the term "bandwidth" means. It is a characteristic of your input stage. It is exact same value for ETS and non-ETS system. It is not related to sampling at all.

You can sample all you want, but if your signal was filtered out by the input state at 10 MHz, then all you will sample is noise, no matter what the sampling frequency is.

So do the -3 dB measurement and tell us at what frequency it happens with just real-time sampling. I get a felling that we won't have to go higher than 50 MHz.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 07:40:34 pm by ataradov »
Alex
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5549
  • Country: us
Re: A new oscilloscope with wifi/lan/usb on indiegogo.com
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2015, 07:43:16 pm »
My Rigol DS2072 has a 2Gsps.

Diligent's Analog discovery about the same price as yours, has similar specs to what you offer, but they only claim 5MHz bandwidth since they have 2 channels.

Two channel oscilloscope (1M Ohm, ±25V, differential, 14 bit, 100Msample/sec, 5MHz bandwidth);
source:
http://www.digilentinc.com/Data/Products/ANALOG-DISCOVERY/Discovery_TRM_RevC_1.pdf

Can you show what a capture looks like when you put a 50MHz sample with say 5 Vpp? What is the dB drop?

Edit: Nevermind, I see from your indiegogo the following:
Quote
Bandwidth : 10Mhz (-3dB)
That's probably using a single channel, right?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 07:48:32 pm by miguelvp »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf