Author Topic: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter  (Read 36993 times)

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Offline KNSSoftware

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2017, 01:24:28 am »
I guess you need the free version of Xamarin as well.  https://www.xamarin.com

There is now only one version of Xamarin, and it is free.  As it is now owned by MS, you just pay (or free if eligible) for your desired license of Visual Studio (I believe only 2013 and above is supported), and the xamarin tools are just another extension like the rest of them.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:27:30 am by KNSSoftware »
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2017, 07:51:28 am »

I can think of two main reasons for not releasing.
1: commercial/IP reasons.
2: compliance issues with FCC part 15 & RED.
Another possible :
3: not wanting to reveal poorly written code
Quote
If it is the second, and your supplier has no problems with it, then somebody could always 'accidentally misplace' files on a server ;-). This way from a compliance point of view the manufacturer can still maintain that the product does not officiallly support 'alternative' firmwares.
Seems unlikely that firmware on a product like this could  affect EMC performance, and radio stuff is all in the BLE module so that shouldn't be an issue.
Are there any parts  of the IEC test equipment standards that can be affected by software (e.g. showing wrong results/ failing to show overvoltage conditions)?

I think it was discussed a while ago but before FW was finished - it would be useful if the bootloader gave some clear indication that "non-stock" firmware was loaded. Did this get implemented?

Even if not released officially I'd be surprised if it didn't get reversed by someone anyway...

Or they want to use the code on a re-branded DMM with the same hardware?

Alexander.
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Offline VinzC

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2017, 10:25:25 am »
Hi Dave.

At first when I saw a while ago you were vlogging about "making a new multimeter" I didn't  realize you'd really intend to make one! Hat's off! I'm a backer of your project and I can't say how excited I am to test it... wait, no, take it apart :D.

Anyway thanks a *whole* bunch for this project. I've seen the goal's been reached (over 900%, is that possible?  8)) BTW does the expression "sky-rocket" apply here? It's fantastic, no doubt.

Keep it all up :-+
 

Offline spider

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #153 on: December 07, 2017, 04:57:41 pm »
Since I never order from outside of europe usually, I do have to expect VAT and customs charges, right? Some 20% on top of the 290AUD in Germany I guess?

To import electronics from outside the EU you need to pay customs duty and value-added tax on values above 150€. (VAT always applies for values above ca. 23€)
I do not know the exact percentage for this kind of measurement devices but my guess is something like 3.7%.

Number crunching:

121GW incl. shipping ca. 188€*
+ import duties 6.96€
= 194.96€
+ VAT 37.04€
Total 232€

*plus additional handling fee for credit card usage, this is not tax relevant however

Edit: That totals to around AU$ 367 incl. taxes and 2% handling fees

I am not an expert but it looks like there are no additional import duties in Germany/ EU.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=de&Taric=90303200&SimDate=20171207

Edit: Or 2.1%
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=de&Taric=90303100&SimDate=20171207

Isn't DHL Express charging additional 18€ for declaration at the customs office?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 08:54:32 pm by spider »
 

Offline eamoex

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #154 on: December 07, 2017, 05:10:12 pm »
I WILL get one. But I'll wait :popcorn: for Dave to sort out some EU-based resale thing. Too much hassle importing at my own costs.

By the way @Dave, how will we know when the EU resale arrangement is up?
 

Offline meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #155 on: December 07, 2017, 08:23:50 pm »
There will certainly be import duties to get it inside the EU and then you get VAT.
The thing is that the VAT and duties are calculated on the price of the device including the shipping charges so it will get expensive real fast.
 

Offline vk3zgw

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2017, 04:17:42 am »
Great effort Dave, I ordered mine yesterday out of the the second batch due in March.

When in the Hold, does the beep sound when it reads higher value? Handy feature when probing around a circuit looking for voltage.

Geoff
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #157 on: December 08, 2017, 05:20:50 am »
Dave
On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change?  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?

I've asked that a few times in various threads and I saw other's asking similar questions during the live feed.  For what ever the reason, they have gone unanswered.  Personally, I am not sure why it was brought up in the first place if discussing it was off limits.

I did not see those comments in the live thread.
Not trying to hide anything, I just thought of a feature we could maybe add at the last minute but it was too far gone. No big deal.

Are they planning to change the circuit board after the 2000 are used up regardless of how the initial units fair?   Or are they only going to change it if there are problems found with the hardware that can not be corrected with firmware?   Thanks for any information you can provide.
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Offline meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #158 on: December 08, 2017, 05:40:28 am »
Dave already answered that the board isn't going to change. There isn't a problem with the current board, it was a nice to have change but not that important.
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #159 on: December 08, 2017, 09:58:58 am »
There will certainly be import duties to get it inside the EU and then you get VAT.
The thing is that the VAT and duties are calculated on the price of the device including the shipping charges so it will get expensive real fast.
In The Netherlands shipping charges should not have additional taxes. See:
https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/douane/goederen_ontvangen_uit_het_buitenland/van_organisaties_en_bedrijven/moet_ik_belastingen_bij_invoer_betalen
Of course some tried to fool customs by item shifting the costs on paper to shipping costs.

Since this device is clearly over 22 euro's you can expect 21%VAT. Their could be additional import duties since the device is over 150 euro, but this is dependent on what category a multimeter falls in. This part could well be nothing as stated by some in this thread.
See: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/douane/goederen_ontvangen_uit_het_buitenland/van_organisaties_en_bedrijven/hoe_bereken_ik_de_belasting_bij_invoer_internetaankopen

But the taxes are first handled by the mailing company. And they will charge you an administration fee for doing this. This fee is usually around 15 euro.

So expect that you have to pay somewhere in the region of ~170 x 21% + 15 = 50.7 Euro, If they are able to find out the true value of this item. If you have to pay more you can always appeal.

Dave really has to find a trick to get rid of the 21%VAT. Everything we buy in Europe has VAT in it. If you are a company, you can get it returned, but that is about it.
Bulk shipping could reduce the administration fee that DHL charges.

No one likes to pay taxes, but it is a part of our daily life, and this time it get's a little bit more visible.

Anyway congrats Dave with this nice meter, looks like a success already. And good choice to run a short campaign, it's nice not having to wait for it to end first.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #160 on: December 08, 2017, 10:21:31 am »
Isn't DHL Express charging additional 18€ for declaration at the customs office?
Normal DHL delivery this week, they offered a 28,5€ fee for doing customs handling for me as receiver, but they charge you at the door for whatever customs wanted also.

But i got another question regarding the 121GW:
Is there a (configurable) auto-off/standby and if so, is the power drain on the batteries significantly lower then or will it beep before going into standby?

edit: found answer in manual p. 52 after finding the manual... it is there and configurable.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 10:18:19 am by SparkyFX »
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Offline maukka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #161 on: December 08, 2017, 11:01:13 am »
Normal DHL delivery this week, they offered a 28,5€ fee for doing customs handling for me as receiver

That was the case in Finland too, they even wanted similar amount if you did the customs processing yourself. After recently gotten so much feedback from the customers and officials they now allow the recipient to handle the importing themself with no fees (except VAT and possible duties). You just need to request all the needed information from DHL.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #162 on: December 08, 2017, 11:53:30 am »
 Note that some countries exempt test equipment from certain fees and taxes.
 

Offline zetsubou

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #163 on: December 08, 2017, 11:55:20 am »
Small request.. can we have a better photo of the case? I can't tell if the side pocket is more secure than the last one.  :-[
 

Offline chefkoch84

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #164 on: December 08, 2017, 01:28:54 pm »
Most probably the closed-source firmware is not to hide IP or dirty code...

Its just an attempt of Dave to prevent people to make this thing to an IoT device.

... but look at all this:
https://github.com/shmuelzon/ble2mqtt
Perhaps it's even possible with an esp32.

I cannot wait to map the multimeters bargraph to the garage door opener ... (of my neighbor). This makes up a nice big high-contrast display. :-DD
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #165 on: December 08, 2017, 01:58:40 pm »
Are they planning to change the circuit board after the 2000 are used up regardless of how the initial units fair?

No.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #166 on: December 08, 2017, 01:59:37 pm »
By the way @Dave, how will we know when the EU resale arrangement is up?

When it goes on sale there, after the Kickstarter.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #167 on: December 08, 2017, 02:08:00 pm »
Are they planning to change the circuit board after the 2000 are used up regardless of how the initial units fair?

No.

Thanks.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Kire Pûdsje

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #168 on: December 08, 2017, 06:45:21 pm »
Quote
Seems unlikely that firmware on a product like this could  affect EMC performance, and radio stuff is all in the BLE module so that shouldn't be an issue.
The BLE module can be set in a non-compliant state, although a bit tricky it can be done from the Cortex M3, on the other hand, the BLE module itself can also be reprogrammed.

In the US and Canada, the FCC/IC do not like BLE module modifications and its firmware should be excluded from hacking. (For it to be sold, what the end user does is a completely different story)

Europe is much more relaxed than the US. As long as the firmware revisions of the Cortex M3 and the BLE module firmware are mentioned on the DoC, the meter can be legally sold as fully hackable (even if this means it might operate non-compliant).
I can imagine UEI/David waits with releasing the DoC, as the firmware revision will probably change until the last moment, also the RED harmonized standard are in constant flux. They unfortunately have yet changed again two weeks ago.
 

Offline genghisnico13

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #169 on: December 08, 2017, 08:17:15 pm »
Dave, could you create a specific section somewhere in the forum for the meter? this thread is enough for now, but when people start getting and playing with them this will become a mess. I can already see the thread "Dremeling the back cover for easy SD card access" ;).

Sorry if this was mentioned somewhere, does the meter come with batteries (2nd batch Kickstarter)? if so, are they installed? one of my freight forwarders doesn't allow loose batteries of any type.

Thanks.

edit: forum terminology
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 08:31:33 pm by genghisnico13 »
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2017, 01:26:08 am »
Hi Dave,

I have few questions:
1. How long does the backlight stay on? I have troubles with my BM829 - It goes off before I can measure anything. If I had a choice I would like it to be changeable in setup to something like 2, 5, 10 or 30 minutes. Yes, 30 - that's the one I'll leave it on.
2. You mentioned cut off voltage. What's the maximum operating voltage (not the absolute maximum, but safe operation)? You say that battery life is good, but I'll put rechargeables anyway - bluetooth, backlight, logging ... etc. I just wonder if I can put Li-Ion or LiFePo4 (two of them with connector batteries).I'll probably use NiMH, but I'm just curious.

Edit: I forgot one: You mention shipping to EU using EU company. Do you have any news on it? Will I be able to get mine shipped from EU if I back you on kickstarter or you'll have separate sale for the EU (so I don't pay tax)?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 01:52:59 am by npelov »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2017, 01:39:09 am »
Dave, could you create a specific section somewhere in the forum for the meter?
Is it time for an "EEVBLOG Products" forum section ?
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2017, 01:59:57 am »
Edit: I forgot one: You mention shipping to EU using EU company. Do you have any news on it? Will I be able to get mine shipped from EU if I back you on kickstarter or you'll have separate sale for the EU (so I don't pay tax)?

You will have to pay taxes in any case. It does not matter if it is imported through someone else.
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Offline HKJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #173 on: December 09, 2017, 07:33:33 am »
You will have to pay taxes in any case. It does not matter if it is imported through someone else.

But it can be lower if the import is into a EU country with a low sale tax. This would also mean only one tax processing fee, not one for each individual order.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2017, 08:34:45 am »
But it can be lower if the import is into a EU country with a low sale tax. This would also mean only one tax processing fee, not one for each individual order.

While this may be true, it absolutely depends on the amount of exports the chosen re-seller makes in a year. There is a threshold under which the reseller is allowed to charge the local VAT on intra EU sales but this varies from country to country. See here for more details: >>Click me<<
Also, it is only true for business to customer sales. Then, the importer is also liable for handling guarantee issues and so on and so forth.
The only way I think it might work would be a private person from Luxembourg importing the meters and doing private sales to the community without telling anyone officially because by law it would no longer be a private sale with the amount of meters that person would be selling all over Europe.
The whole VAT issue is also just relevant for private persons.
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