ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter

[npelov]

Well, europe always gets all the electronics at a higher price. Even if it's made in EU it's either Germany or England or other country that has higher prices, so it is even more expensive than imports. Whatever... I just accept it and move on.
The more interesting is the backlight timer and battery voltage. Will 121GW withstand  2x3.6V or even 2x4.2V batteries.

[EEVblog]

Also, it is only true for business to customer sales. Then, the importer is also liable for handling guarantee issues and so on and so forth.
The only way I think it might work would be a private person from Luxembourg importing the meters and doing private sales to the community without telling anyone officially because by law it would no longer be a private sale with the amount of meters that person would be selling all over Europe.
The whole VAT issue is also just relevant for private persons.

Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts" 

[HKJ]

Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts" 

If you are registered as a business it cannot be a gift (Definition by our customs office) .

[frozenfrogz]

Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts" 

No, the gift status can only be applied to items of estimated value below ~30€ and the shipment can only be a single item.

[Candid]

Will I get a tracking number and information when my order is on it's way? Dave you said the first 40 will be sent on 5th Dec when I remember correct. Last info I got was from 25th Nov with confirmation of order #11039 but up to now no shipping confirmation. Sorry, but I am so curious. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Also, it is only true for business to customer sales. Then, the importer is also liable for handling guarantee issues and so on and so forth.
The only way I think it might work would be a private person from Luxembourg importing the meters and doing private sales to the community without telling anyone officially because by law it would no longer be a private sale with the amount of meters that person would be selling all over Europe.
The whole VAT issue is also just relevant for private persons.

Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts" 

"Gift" only raises the duty-free threshold from (in the UK) about £18 to £36  , so not relevant to this item  other than maybe the plausibility of paying £20 to ship something worth less than the postage)

[Candid]

The customs fee is not a big deal I think. It's normal that europeans (and others too) have to pay a VAT. In Germany it is 19% plus about 12,50 EUR that DHL takes for pre-paying the VAT. You can make a contract with DHL in Germany to allow them to charge the VAT directly from your bank account. Then you don't have to pay the extra DHL fee of about 12,50 EUR but sometimes DHL does not accept privat people for this contract.

Marking a package as gift is not a good idea for german customers because customs will open the parcel and when they "think" it is not a gift you will be charged not only the 19%. Being honest with the markings of a parcel is the best for German customers.

[nidlaX]

FWIW, my prediction is Dave sells 1842 DMMs in the Kickstarter campaign.

He already sold 1268 in 22 hours. IMO it will be at least 5k.

Nope, not a chance. I'll be surprised if it even gets to 2k.
I have blown my wad on marketing, unless I want to keep hammering it, but that will only pick up the stragglers.

I place my bet it will get 2k. Although I have more multimetrs than I need, if it does not reach 2k in 5 days (I think it will happen much faster), I'll buy one myself.

Well wraper, looks like you need to invent a new excuse to buy yourself one.

[free_electron]

i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

[mikeselectricstuff]

i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

 The tax is on the value that is added at each stage of the manufacturing/distribution process. For an imported item, the added value is 100% of the value. It's like an incremental sales tax.

If I sell a widget, and my BOM costs £10 and I sell for £20.
I pay 20% VAT on £10 to the parts supplier=£2,  and charge the customer 20% of the sales price = £4. I send the difference of £2 to HMRC, as the VAT on the value I have added.

[PeterL]

i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

It's just another word for sales tax. And in Europe it is raised on everything you buy as a consumer. It doesn't matter were it comes from.* Only the tariff differs from country to country, and is higher for luxury goods.

*Only exception is when we buy something outside the EU with a low value. In that case the government (at least in NL) doesn't bother and just let it pass.

[eeviking]

The customs fee is not a big deal I think. It's normal that europeans (and others too) have to pay a VAT. In Germany it is 19% plus about 12,50 EUR that DHL takes for pre-paying the VAT. You can make a contract with DHL in Germany to allow them to charge the VAT directly from your bank account. Then you don't have to pay the extra DHL fee of about 12,50 EUR but sometimes DHL does not accept privat people for this contract.

Marking a package as gift is not a good idea for german customers because customs will open the parcel and when they "think" it is not a gift you will be charged not only the 19%. Being honest with the markings of a parcel is the best for German customers.

Well. In Denmark the VAT is 25% (import below 11 EUR is exempt) and the fee for Postnord to handle the import is 21.50 EUR 
Only way for a private person to avoid the fee is to use a big door to door courier like UPS/FEDEX who have their own fee's, or prepay like with ebay's global shipping program.
Even DHL sometimes hands over to Postnord for local delivery.

I have seen Keysight ship to Denmark but only charge 21% VAT (pre paid) be course they import to EU via NL. Don't know if they are bending the rules.

[meeder]

i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

It's just another word for sales tax. And in Europe it is raised on everything you buy as a consumer. It doesn't matter were it comes from.* Only the tariff differs from country to country, and is higher for luxury goods.

*Only exception is when we buy something outside the EU with a low value. In that case the government (at least in NL) doesn't bother and just let it pass.

Officially it is not taxed if it is below €21 including shipping but in practice I never paid tax for anything below €100.

[VinzC]

i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

Like states needed to justify collecting taxes... In my country, VAT is paid by us, customers, regardless of where a product comes from and how many (including zero) times it has been transformed. It doesn't have to make sense, it's mandatory. And if you try to avoid it, you risk being fined for fraud.

[Mr. Scram]

i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

I don't think that's what VAT is, but I also don't think you think that's what VAT is.

It's never about the value added by the EU or nation state. It's about the value added by the person handling the materials or goods. You pay tax over the bit you've increased in value. If you buy 10 monetary units worth of wood and turn it into an item worth 30 monetary units, you pay VAT over 20 monetary units. The other bits are paid by their respective value adders. Obviously, this VAT is transferred by the manufacturers to the customer. The customer sees a singular compounded figure, but it's typically a stack of smaller amounts.

Whether it's reasonable to tax added value is another story, but it's a common general tax to pay for a nation's general services. You can't always tax everything 1 to 1.

[eeviking]

i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

It's just another word for sales tax. And in Europe it is raised on everything you buy as a consumer. It doesn't matter were it comes from.* Only the tariff differs from country to country, and is higher for luxury goods.

*Only exception is when we buy something outside the EU with a low value. In that case the government (at least in NL) doesn't bother and just let it pass.

Officially it is not taxed if it is below €21 including shipping but in practice I never paid tax for anything below €100.

Here we should pay tax for items above 11€ but a lot of small items slip through the customs unnoticed.
I have been charged 25€ (tax and fee) on 20$ item's for china
Then it is cheaper to refuse acceptance and reorder the item from another seller who only declare 10$ 

[Mr. Scram]

Here we should pay tax for items above 11€ but a lot of small items slip through the customs unnoticed.
I have been charged 25€ (tax and fee) on 20$ item's for china
Then it is cheaper to refuse acceptance and reorder the item from another seller who only declare 10$ 

Really, you'd do that? I'm all for bending the system to your favour, but that sounds like causing a lot of trouble for various people who had nothing to do with your decision to buy something for what's effectively chump change.

[SparkyFX]

if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

Anything mike said and it might also serve the purpose of a simple import tax. As everyone who produces locally has to pay it, the local market would have a disadvantage. Rest of the formalities is described here.

The (imho) unfair part is: if you carry a newly bought item with you to Germany while crossing the border, there is a 300 Euro (430 Euro for Flight- and Sea-Travel) duty free limit for goods except alcohol, tobacco, fuel and such. So having it sent by mail to you counts as imported, bringing it by travel is free of duties.

[Mr. Scram]

Anything mike said and it might also serve the purpose of a simple import tax. As everyone who produces locally has to pay it, the local market would have a disadvantage. Rest of the formalities is described here.

The (imho) unfair part is: if you carry a newly bought item with you to Germany while crossing the border, there is a 300 Euro (430 Euro for Flight- and Sea-Travel) duty free limit for goods except alcohol, tobacco, fuel and such. So having it sent by mail to you counts as imported, bringing it by travel is free of duties.

Import tax is a separate thing, though it doesn't apply to many categories. EU residents should consider themselves lucky for intra EU taxing being a thing of the past.

[KNSSoftware]

if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

Anything mike said and it might also serve the purpose of a simple import tax. As everyone who produces locally has to pay it, the local market would have a disadvantage. Rest of the formalities is described here.

The (imho) unfair part is: if you carry a newly bought item with you to Germany while crossing the border, there is a 300 Euro (430 Euro for Flight- and Sea-Travel) duty free limit for goods except alcohol, tobacco, fuel and such. So having it sent by mail to you counts as imported, bringing it by travel is free of duties.

But it is a 'limit"/allowance, and it will only applicable to you outside the EU, as you can't hide from it here, they are all much the same.  They allow this basic policing, as it would not make economical sense for you to bypass local tax, by buying relatively expensive international crossings.  Not to mention, they don't want the headach of having to force you to declare everything little thing you may have picked up on your travel, vs proving what you had taken with you outbound that had your local tax already paid.

[EEVblog]

Here we should pay tax for items above 11€ but a lot of small items slip through the customs unnoticed.
I have been charged 25€ (tax and fee) on 20$ item's for china

That's interesting.
One of my options is to use a Chinese re-shipper who uses DHL Express.

[EEVblog]

The customs fee is not a big deal I think. It's normal that europeans (and others too) have to pay a VAT. In Germany it is 19% plus about 12,50 EUR that DHL takes for pre-paying the VAT. You can make a contract with DHL in Germany to allow them to charge the VAT directly from your bank account. Then you don't have to pay the extra DHL fee of about 12,50 EUR but sometimes DHL does not accept privat people for this contract.

A big German test gear seller has offer to the re-shipping for me inside the EU.
They offer good internal postage rates, but there is no way to avoid the 19% German VAT, regardless of whether the meter is ultimately shipped within Germany outside of it.
I obviously cannot absorb a 19% VAT fee, so this would have to be an additional fee I charge backers in the EU
The advantage is that there should be zero customs hassles to the backer because it would be shipped internal in the EU via DHL.

I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...

[IanB]

19% VAT and no additional import fees would be a bargain for EU residents where the local VAT rate is higher, in some countries 25% or more.

[Mr. Scram]

19% VAT and no additional import fees would be a bargain for EU residents where the local VAT rate is higher, in some countries 25% or more.

Hungary takes the cake with 27%. Rates that high seem to be rare though. Luxembourg has the most advantageous rate at 17%, though in some countries reduced rates might apply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

[Moragor]

@EEVblog: I'm from Switzerland and I wanted to make sure that the shipments from Swiss backers get separated from pre-VATed EU ones since we're not members of the European union and have to pay fees for German imports.