Author Topic: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter  (Read 36810 times)

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Offline ali_asadzadeh

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #200 on: December 13, 2017, 06:54:27 am »
Dave I can not back up your project as I'm in Iran, but I wish I could do that. Big thumbs up :-+ :-+ :-+
Also you mentioned in kickstarter that the meter would be open in schematics, where can we find it?
You can order parts from www.ASiDesigner.com
we are a wire-based company
 

Offline Towger

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #201 on: December 13, 2017, 09:22:59 am »
Re VAT / German Importer.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eevblog/eevblog-121gw-multimeter/posts/2070011

As I expected, this is very messy and not really worth the hassle.

Dave, the simple solution is just give a option of shipping method:

Simple:
DHL Express Courier: Which I believe is DHL Courier all the way. DHL handling everything and the 'Companies' who supported the Kickstarter and claim the VAT portion back
DHL eCommerce: Which I believe is final delivery by local post.  Supporters know how their local post offices handle taxes and can choose if advantageous to DHL delivery.

Messy:
3rd Party: If going ahead this needs to be a clean single option.  They will not want to be issuing zero rated invoices to companies etc, and you collecting the VAT is on dodgy legal grounds.
DHL China: If this is DHL all the way from China it is no different to option 1 above, except they do not take the invoice on face value and will inspect the parcel, and may revise upwards.  I have had this happen several times now.  In one case I kicked up a fuss and ended up getting all the VAT back, even though they said they were refunding just the over charge.

In all cases, a proper clearly itemised (Item and P&P shown separately) invoice should be available on the outside of the package.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 09:25:27 am by Towger »
 

Online crispus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #202 on: December 13, 2017, 09:28:21 am »
How can one buy two or more meters?
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #203 on: December 13, 2017, 11:01:12 am »


I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...

Dave, will my KS pledge be updated automatically (+19% for VAT in EU) by the survey you've sent, or will I have to do that manually?

Frank
 

Offline IanJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #204 on: December 13, 2017, 11:44:27 am »
A big German test gear seller has offer to the re-shipping for me inside the EU.
They offer good internal postage rates, but there is no way to avoid the 19% German VAT, regardless of whether the meter is ultimately shipped within Germany outside of it.

There is......but not for the general public though.
If I (am in UK) buy a gadget from VAT registered company in Germany and use my own UK VAT registered company to pay for it then the VAT should be zero rated, i.e. no VAT.
I do this when selling my PDVS2 voltage sources within the EU.
All the different options of VAT, no VAT etc etc.........it's a pain to set up an online shop that can handle it all seamlessly!

https://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/vat-within-eu-and-other-trade-agreement-countries

Ian.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 11:46:07 am by IanJ »
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Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #205 on: December 13, 2017, 12:14:59 pm »
Where do we fill in the shipping address?

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #206 on: December 13, 2017, 12:30:53 pm »
[There is......but not for the general public though.
If I (am in UK) buy a gadget from VAT registered company in Germany and use my own UK VAT registered company to pay for it then the VAT should be zero rated, i.e. no VAT.
I do this when selling my PDVS2 voltage sources within the EU.
All the different options of VAT, no VAT etc etc.........it's a pain to set up an online shop that can handle it all seamlessly!

https://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/vat-within-eu-and-other-trade-agreement-countries

Ian.
Maybe you're talking about other regulations, but typically you always charge VAT. In the case of business to business, you charge it, but the other can reclaim that VAT. Sooner or later it all ends up at a consumer and he will have to pay the VAT without reclaiming it. There are certain industries that are exempt from VAT, but those are fairly specific.

Unless you're part of the exceptions, not charging the end consumer VAT isn't really possible. Obviously, as everyone would love to sell a product that's roughly a fifth cheaper without any effort!
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #207 on: December 13, 2017, 01:18:23 pm »
[There is......but not for the general public though.
If I (am in UK) buy a gadget from VAT registered company in Germany and use my own UK VAT registered company to pay for it then the VAT should be zero rated, i.e. no VAT.
I do this when selling my PDVS2 voltage sources within the EU.
All the different options of VAT, no VAT etc etc.........it's a pain to set up an online shop that can handle it all seamlessly!

https://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/vat-within-eu-and-other-trade-agreement-countries

Ian.
Maybe you're talking about other regulations, but typically you always charge VAT. In the case of business to business, you charge it, but the other can reclaim that VAT.
For business-to-business transactions between EU countries, VAT is not charged - I think they realised the paperwork wasn't worth it.
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Offline Towger

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #208 on: December 13, 2017, 02:06:32 pm »
You are all correct, but there is another consideration.

B2C = Charge VAT
B2B - No VAT Number supplied = Charge VAT and Business Purchaser can reclaim VAT.
B2B - VAT Number Supplied = Don't Change VAT

Then...
Business does a large amount of selling into another EU country.
Business exceeds VAT Threshold for this Country. e.g. €80,000 per year.
Business must register for VAT in 3rd party country and collect VAT at local rates for local VAT Man.

This is why the mega online stores like Amazon UK, Thomann and Komplett charge your local VAT on checkout

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:08:13 pm by Towger »
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #209 on: December 13, 2017, 02:25:21 pm »
wtf monkey?!? I tried to vote but they took long time to load the page. Not sure if my vote was accepted. There is DoS or something going on...

Paying VAT upfront is way better even you pay 1-2% more. This way you avoid delay in customs and possible payment delays/mistakes. When I ordered my Hakko I wrote the "reason code" in my payment and they didn't want to release it. I had following options:
1. go there (30 km - the other side of the city - about 3 hours) and submit a request for the payment details to be fixed
2. pay double to DHL to do that for me
3. pay the VAT again

Well I paid the VAT again. And the process took more than a week. DHL + customs = evil.

P.S. Message from surveymonkey.com: "It looks like we've slipped." (And they slipped too many times)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:29:23 pm by npelov »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #210 on: December 13, 2017, 02:37:55 pm »
Officially it is not taxed if it is below €21 including shipping
This is a good point to remember, too. VAT is charged for shipping. If you pay for faster shipping you also pay more tax when it arrives.
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #211 on: December 13, 2017, 02:40:38 pm »
Well the campaign is ending. I wonder if it'll be possible to pay the vat after it's done - like paypal or something. I really don't want to mess with the DHL+ customs combo again. I've dealt fine with each one of them alone, but when you combine them it gets ugly.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #212 on: December 13, 2017, 02:44:31 pm »
I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...

I'd pay it up front because:
a) If it gets caught in the customs system you can face big delays, maybe a week extra if you're unlucky.
b) Couriers will charge you a ridiculous "handling fee" for doing the customs 'paperwork' for you (can be as much as the tax even though these days they probably just scan a barcode and type in a price).
c) I wouldn't have to pay VAT on the shipping costs.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:46:24 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #213 on: December 13, 2017, 03:05:11 pm »
I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...

I'd pay it up front because:
a) If it gets caught in the customs system you can face big delays, maybe a week extra if you're unlucky.
b) Couriers will charge you a ridiculous "handling fee" for doing the customs 'paperwork' for you (can be as much as the tax even though these days they probably just scan a barcode and type in a price).
c) I wouldn't have to pay VAT on the shipping costs.

In Greece if your packet goes through custom check, it could be easily a month before the packet is actually checked taxed and released.

A courier service can speed up things but the fees are ridiculous high.

You could run the process by your self but could easily loose a day or two to the custom office.

Alexander.
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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #214 on: December 13, 2017, 03:17:54 pm »
Where do we fill in the shipping address?

Alexander.
There has been something about it in an older video .

How can one buy two or more meters?
Kickstarter is not a sales platform in itself, they actually do not sell goods, therefore it is not like a shop with all the tax and shipment options. All you got from their side is backing projects.

In a former kickstarter campaign it was mentioned that you could pledge the double amount of money and the project management needs to sort out what you actually pledged for and hopefully sends the right amount. Which might be a pita when certain shipping weights are exceeded. OTOH it was mentioned that is it up for sales in the eevblog shop after the kickstarter is over.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 03:24:42 pm by SparkyFX »
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Online crispus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #215 on: December 13, 2017, 03:45:08 pm »
Kickstarter is not a sales platform in itself, they actually do not sell goods, therefore it is not like a shop with all the tax and shipment options.
I know this, also Dave mentioned it - can't remember where (video, the Ah) that he might look on the amount to figure out how many, but is not a certitude, just a possibility. I just wanted a confirmation :D
I know I'm numskull, but I look around me and I feel better.
 

Offline stach

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #216 on: December 13, 2017, 06:02:13 pm »
A bit confused now  :-// - so I'm in EU, I will pay in 5 hours 265 AU for the meter and 30 AU in shipment, but now there is a German reseller, re shipper whatever involved, which I will be charged 19% extra VAT.

So 30 AU are now for what ? I guess meters wont be shipped separately to German company and then to a me ? Or will they be ?

As I understand a process all meters for kickstarter backers are send first to Dave, for a hologram sticker, pouch etc… then what will happen ? Will each one be shipped separately to Germany, where it will be reshipped to me ?

And now when will I be charged this extra 19% VAT ? On delivery ?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 06:12:15 pm by stach »
 

Offline ballanux

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #217 on: December 13, 2017, 06:33:51 pm »
I think 19% is a good deal, if there is the opportunity to do it this way, I'm definitely in.

From past experiences, more than I would like, the chances that a high value package goes unnoticed through DHL or UPS is zero. I suppose these companies declare in advance the value of the packages to customs. If you go through China Post, USPS or something cheaper you might get lucky.

When they stop the package in customs there is a charge due to VAT (21% in Spain so right there I'm already saving a bit) but also there is a customs fee. But if the customs documentation is handled directly by DHL they charge you their own fee in top of that, last time I think it was a bit more than 20€.

By the way, I don't know if it has already been said, but the amount of the VAT is calculated including shipping cost... not only the price of the product
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #218 on: December 13, 2017, 09:30:55 pm »
And now when will I be charged this extra 19% VAT ? On delivery ?

If you have received something more expensive than 20 EUR from foreign country (China doesn't count - they lie about the price) you would know that you have to pay VAT no matter what. However paying VAT to customs after the package enters the country is slow and painful process. That's why Dave wants to use someone from the EU to re-ship  the multimeters. This way you pay the VAT to Dave, he pays to the German company and they pay to their government. That's the only thing - the VAT goes to germany instead of your country. But there are no customs delays and probably few trips to the bank, customs and other annoying activities.
 

Offline Candid

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #219 on: December 13, 2017, 09:37:48 pm »
A big German test gear seller has offer to the re-shipping for me inside the EU.
They offer good internal postage rates, but there is no way to avoid the 19% German VAT, regardless of whether the meter is ultimately shipped within Germany outside of it.
[...]
The advantage is that there should be zero customs hassles to the backer because it would be shipped internal in the EU via DHL.

I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...
I can only speak für germany but I think all other countries will be less complicated ;-). Sending goods from outside germany to germany you need to clearly declare what is sent. With real product and postage costs. Marking as gift will most likely lead to make the german customs define the value of a product by their suggestion what in the end most time is a very expensive deal for the recipient. E.g. the customs says ok the EEVblog 121GW is similar to a Fluke xyz, so we calculate with a product price of 500 EUR because the declaration on the parcel was not ok ;-).

Less than 26,- EUR total costs (product INCLUDING postage). No VAT no other fees to pay.

Less than 150,- EUR (232,- AUD) total costs (product INCLUDING postage), you ONLY have to pay german VAT of 19% (of the product price without postage costs) and a DHL fee.

Above 150 EUR total costs you may have to pay an extra fee but for DMMs this is 0% I think (keyword for this is Taric Code http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=de&Taric=90303200&SimDate=20171207).

This is how it worked for me when I ordered the EEVblog BM235:
EEVblog BM235: 135,- AUD + 20,- AUD shipping = 155,- AUD
155,- AUD = 100,27 EUR, less than 150 EUR -> only 19% VAT, no other customs fee

135 AUD (only product) = 87,33 EUR
19% of 87,33 EUR = 16,59 EUR VAT

In total I was charged 155,- AUD (for/from Dave) + 16,59 EUR VAT + 12,50 EUR DHL fee.

The DHL fee is a fee you have to pay to DHL because they pre-pay the VAT for you. Haha. You can make a contract with DHL to allow then to directly charge the VAT from your bank account, then you won't have to pay this 12,50 EUR DHL fee. Going the way directly from Dave through the customs to us may take a week or max 2 extra weeks.

Getting the meter through a reseller in germany may make things easier and faster. But a reseller wants to get payed for his work. My experience with resellers most time is that in the end you pay more. 19% VAT and a much higher product price.

There may be another way. PostNL (netherlands) has a special service for B2C transfer to any EU country from outside the EU:
http://www.postnl.com/parcels/international-parcel-delivery/parcels-eu/

You may contact postNL for exact information. As far as I understand it's not 100% ok what postNL is doing (who cares?). Because inside the EU there is no extra fee for the customer and so this could be a way to get around the VAT for all european citizens and postNL makes bulk import to the EU. But there is no exact information on their website if the recipient really does not pay VAT, you may check this with them.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 09:41:47 pm by Candid »
 
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Offline stach

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #220 on: December 13, 2017, 09:53:35 pm »
And now when will I be charged this extra 19% VAT ? On delivery ?

If you have received something more expensive than 20 EUR from foreign country (China doesn't count - they lie about the price) you would know that you have to pay VAT no matter what. However paying VAT to customs after the package enters the country is slow and painful process. That's why Dave wants to use someone from the EU to re-ship  the multimeters. This way you pay the VAT to Dave, he pays to the German company and they pay to their government. That's the only thing - the VAT goes to germany instead of your country. But there are no customs delays and probably few trips to the bank, customs and other annoying activities.

Thank you npelov that now makes a lot more sense !
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #221 on: December 13, 2017, 10:24:15 pm »
What's stopping me form ordering is mostly DHL
Their clearance service fee is around 40eur. Although customs clearance for private customers (B2P) goes simpler than for companies DHL charges it the same. Others charge 3-5eur for these fees, but around the same amount as DHL for a full customs clearance procedure (B2B).

So a 200EUR meter would end up: +20% VAT+10% Customs+40eur DHL = 300eur
Seems better to wait for a reseller within Europe, even though meter will  be more expensive later.

A plus is that U(S)PS/FedEx have surprised me a few times with no customs procedure.
 

Offline jerolee

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #222 on: December 14, 2017, 02:13:34 am »
I prefer the re-seller in Germany.  The tax, fees and problems i encounter in Spain are ridiculous.
Hassle free from Germany!

Thanks.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #223 on: December 14, 2017, 06:05:49 am »
DAVE!

I expect you might already be thinking about it - but I would just like to encourage you to do a quick video as a follow-up to the Kickstarter campaign.

Let us know how it went in your eyes - how many meters have been spoken for - testing status - delivery timelines (we know this is going to be a "best guess"), etc.
 
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Offline NickS

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #224 on: December 14, 2017, 08:43:20 am »
Dave just a FYI I just completed my Kickstarter survey (backer 50 Whoo!) and the EU VAT Paypal email address is a required field.
I'm an Aussie so based on the question instructions it seems like it should have been left blank.
 


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